GailV Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Aw, man, what a shame. We never had pressure to sell cookies. However, there were plenty of other things that drove me nuts about younger dd's troop -- older dd's troop was pretty awesome all the way around. A friend who was a cookie mom in a different troop had a mom in her troop who ordered hundreds of boxes for her daughter to sell (we do not pre-order in our Council) -- my friend would remind her that she was responsible for actually paying for all the boxes she ordered -- it got really tense (although fascinating to watch from the outside). So it apparently works both ways in that you can have a sane cookie mom and a sort of whacky troop-member-parent who goes rogue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Margaret, your fair doesn't have open show? We have open show everything for agriculture for adults and some for teens, plus open show quilting, sewing, needlework, canning and preserving, woodworking, and photography. We have open show for animals and horse shows as well. The open shows do require entrance fees - nominal ones. 4-H programming pays for the shows and exhibits along with the fair board so no entrance fees. But no premiums either, and the ribbons for Best of Show are pathetic. I am not happy about that because it is a real accomplishment to get one of those things so I think it wouldn't kill the 4-H office and fair board to get nicer ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawthorne44 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I loved selling girl scout cookies as a little kid, but even I wouldn't have DD sell them now. Back in the dark ages of my childhood, 400 boxes would mean free 2 weeks of live-in girl scout camp with horses. I loved camp and I had to pay for it myself, so I was one motivated little girl. My mom had done phone sales so she coached me on sales techniques. I even sold from a hospital bed one year calling the neighbors and the people that had ordered last year. Now I think you need over 2500 boxes (from memory) to get two weeks of camp. It seems that too much money is disappearing into national. Quality has gone down too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Oh ok. Well that is a little better! Although I wonder how they'd do just asking for donations. If they split it (half to the troop and half the greater organization) they have the potential to make so much more and nobody is feeling robbed blind by cookies. I'd hand them $5 and know they'd get a lot more than if I bought one box of cookies. Interestingly, even 4H sells cookies. I bet a lot of people don't know that. That is totally on a voluntary basis though. Actually, our troop makes more in donations at the booths than we do in cookie sales. Lots of people tell us to keep the change or hand us $5 but don't want the cookies. We're particularly lucky because our troop is sponsored by the huge local parish's school. So parishioners see the St. Martha's sign and are more willing to buy from us or give us a donation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 awww well that is boring. I do like the cookies, but I'm a little sad they don't even get a dollar per box. I knew they didn't get it all, but that's so low. I suppose it has become a tradition, but seems to me they could make more money doing other things. It's true that the troupe cut per box is fairly low, but try to remember that cookie profits stay in the council where they are earned. After the troupes and bakery are paid, the rest goes to council to support camp properties and programs. This in turn benefits the girls because camp properties are relatively to use. A troupe can camp for a few days for less than a troupe build-a-bear trip. Councils can put on a field day with a climbing wall and charge the girls $5 a head even though it costs more than that to run the event. They can run a first aid course or a swimming event with that money and only charge the troupes a token amount for accountability. I found if you spent the money on traditional scouting experiences and not retail experiences you could do a lot without demanding the kids sell 100+ boxes. I once took 50 people Girl Scout camping for three days for less than $400. Most of the money went to food. Spending about a dollar a day for per-person lodging for a safe, private, and fun property is amazing and HIGHLY supplemented. Some properties are 100% maintained by cookie money. The girls did that for themselves and their fellow scouts. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 It's true that the troupe cut per box is fairly low, but try to remember that cookie profits stay in the council where they are earned. After the troupes and bakery are paid, the rest goes to council to support camp properties and programs. This in turn benefits the girls because camp properties are relatively to use. A troupe can camp for a few days for less than a troupe build-a-bear trip. Councils can put on a field day with a climbing wall and charge the girls $5 a head even though it costs more than that to run the event. They can run a first aid course or a swimming event with that money and only charge the troupes a token amount for accountability. I found if you spent the money on traditional scouting experiences and not retail experiences you could do a lot without demanding the kids sell 100+ boxes. I once took 50 people Girl Scout camping for three days for less than $400. Most of the money went to food. Spending about a dollar a day for per-person lodging for a safe, private, and fun property is amazing and HIGHLY supplemented. Some properties are 100% maintained by cookie money. The girls did that for themselves and their fellow scouts. I wish it was like that here. Most of the official GS events we've seen have been more like $50 per girl for a day long activity. :( I don't know what our council does with all the money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I wish it was like that here. Most of the official GS events we've seen have been more like $50 per girl for a day long activity. :( I don't know what our council does with all the money. Yeah this is what it was like when I was a girl scout. We supposedly raised all kinds of money, but I don't know where it went. Oh I know where some of it went. The troop leaders announced that they were going out to dinner with some of the money as a thank you from us for their hard work. :cursing: Even as a young kid I thought that was crap. I quit after. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I hate selling Girl Scout cookies. Hate it. With a passion. Everyone we know either already has a Girl Scout or doesn't eat sugar. I begged and pleaded to be allowed to make a donation to the troop instead of selling, but no, not allowed. Now the cookie mom is freaking out at me because dd and I didn't sell enough. We helped out multiple times at the troop cookie booth, but people around here are pretty health-conscious, and unsurprisingly most people don't want to pay $4 for a small package of mediocre cookies that utilize slave-harvested chocolate. This woman ordered literally hundreds of boxes of cookies per girl, completely ignored everyone's estimates on how many we thought we could sell, and now is in an absolute rage that we couldn't sell them all. Gee, you think? I only told her half a dozen times beforehand that we couldn't. Now she's trying to tell me that our family will be financially responsible for the cookies that didn't get sold. Yeah, I don't think so. Thanks for letting me rant. If I didn't do it here I'd end up doing it at tonight's umpteenth cookie booth and that would be bad. Why on earth is it not allowed, if the point is to make MONEY for the troops? You would be donating money. It isn't necessary to also consume cookies. And how stupid of her to over-order. That's on her. You warned her up front that this wasn't doable for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I loved selling girl scout cookies as a little kid, but even I wouldn't have DD sell them now. Back in the dark ages of my childhood, 400 boxes would mean free 2 weeks of live-in girl scout camp with horses. I loved camp and I had to pay for it myself, so I was one motivated little girl. My mom had done phone sales so she coached me on sales techniques. I even sold from a hospital bed one year calling the neighbors and the people that had ordered last year. Now I think you need over 2500 boxes (from memory) to get two weeks of camp. It seems that too much money is disappearing into national. Quality has gone down too. Wow, you are one impressive sales person - even as a little girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Why on earth is it not allowed, if the point is to make MONEY for the troops? You would be donating money. It isn't necessary to also consume cookies. And how stupid of her to over-order. That's on her. You warned her up front that this wasn't doable for you. What...not necessary to consume cookies? Have you tried these cookies? I don't like sweets and I love these cookies! :lol: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 What...not necessary to consume cookies? Have you tried these cookies? I don't like sweets and I love these cookies! :lol: I rebuke these cookies in Jesus' name! Seriously, I stay far, far away. They seem to disappear in my presence somehow. Like quickly. Especially Thin Mints. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) I rebuke these cookies in Jesus' name! Seriously, I stay far, far away. They seem to disappear in my presence somehow. Like quickly. Especially Thin Mints. My down fall are the samoas. And I noticed they sell samoas in the grocery store. I might have bought them once. And I might have eaten the package in one sitting. But I'm not entirely sure because it happened all so quickly. :leaving: Edited March 21, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I think that any fundraiser any organization tries, they should have a buy-out option. So many people are overwhelmed by these things because they may have one child playing soccer, another in scouts, and another in dance or piano or whatever, and it is too much. As for our 4-H club and rocket team, I have sworn off fundraisers and will never, ever do another one. Done. Worn out. Burned out. We are setting a price, a very reasonable price for the rocket team members' participation and travel, and for the projects we do in the club. If parents can't afford this we told them to go ahead and find their own creative way to pay...collect pop cans, hit up grandma and grandpa, rake leaves for pay, whatever works. It was such a relief to look at our schedule and realize, "I won't be organizing the crazy this year, YAY!!!!" I think the cookie lady in this case needs her head examined, and she will have to write the check for all the unsold cookies. Good grief. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I loved selling girl scout cookies as a little kid, but even I wouldn't have DD sell them now. Back in the dark ages of my childhood, 400 boxes would mean free 2 weeks of live-in girl scout camp with horses. I loved camp and I had to pay for it myself, so I was one motivated little girl. My mom had done phone sales so she coached me on sales techniques. I even sold from a hospital bed one year calling the neighbors and the people that had ordered last year. Now I think you need over 2500 boxes (from memory) to get two weeks of camp. It seems that too much money is disappearing into national. Quality has gone down too. Unless they've changed the laws since I was a leader (I have been out for almost a decade) National gets ZERO cookie money. It stays in the local council. National gets dues money and any national level donations. When I led scouts, if people preferred to donate instead of sell cookies, we had no problem with that. The troop kept 100% of donation money. People often donated instead of buying cookies. We were thankful. It was very kind of them. I also had a girl in my troop who sold very well. She kept a list of neighbors and stopped asking if they declined to buy for two years running. By the time she was a junior she had a long list of loyal repeat customers plus she would broaden her sales area each year. She was super motivated about EVERYTHING. A real crackerjack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Why on earth is it not allowed, if the point is to make MONEY for the troops? You would be donating money. It isn't necessary to also consume cookies. And how stupid of her to over-order. That's on her. You warned her up front that this wasn't doable for you. If I just give money to the troop, then the Council can't take 80%+ like it does with the cookie money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Unless they've changed the laws since I was a leader (I have been out for almost a decade) National gets ZERO cookie money. It stays in the local council. National gets dues money and any national level donations. When I led scouts, if people preferred to donate instead of sell cookies, we had no problem with that. The troop kept 100% of donation money. People often donated instead of buying cookies. We were thankful. It was very kind of them. I also had a girl in my troop who sold very well. She kept a list of neighbors and stopped asking if they declined to buy for two years running. By the time she was a junior she had a long list of loyal repeat customers plus she would broaden her sales area each year. She was super motivated about EVERYTHING. A real crackerjack. National gets royalties from the cookie production companies for each box sold to the troops. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 My kids are in baseball and now this year they are each responsible for selling $150 worth of raffle tickets - $10/ticket. So that's $300 worth of lame tickets no one wants. We can't try to sell these to anyone. To say I am thoroughly disappointed is an understatement. It's not like we don't pay for baseball either - we pay about $200/kid already, and they are not even tweens. And we bring our own equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 My down fall are the samoas. And I noticed they sell samoas in the grocery store. I might have bought them once. And I might have eaten the package in one sitting. But I'm not entirely sure because it happened all so quickly. :leaving: What happens at the grocery store stays at the grocery store. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 If I just give money to the troop, then the Council can't take 80%+ like it does with the cookie money. Well, that's just wrong all around, isn't it? What happened to these groups? My husband would say...capitalism. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwickimom Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 One of many reasons we quit girl scouts. I will not be forced to sell or buy anything. Try and make me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimomma Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I was in GS all the way through high school. By the time we were in 7th grade, we had another fundraiser that was very lucrative so selling cookies was not only embarrassing because it seemed babyish but was not going to yield the kind of profit we could with our other fundraiser. I remember meeting as a troop and asking our leader if we could just not sell the cookies. She explained the rules and that we had to. But. We did not have to do a very good job. So we each sold one box of the same type (so we did not have case overages) and turned that in every year. No one said anything although I'm sure the council was on to us. Looking back, I kind of feel like we did not do our part to support the council by skipping the cookie sales. I don't think we as girls understood the financials. If we had, I'm quite sure we would happily have donated some of the profits of our other fundraiser to the council. We had a very active troop with BIG expenses (we even went to Space Camp, all expenses paid) and selling cookies was just not going to cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 National gets royalties from the cookie production companies for each box sold to the troops. That would come from the bakery's piece of the pie (or cookie) and is part of their expenses for doing business. Ultimately, the customer pays for everything of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GailV Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I also had a girl in my troop who sold very well. She kept a list of neighbors and stopped asking if they declined to buy for two years running. By the time she was a junior she had a long list of loyal repeat customers plus she would broaden her sales area each year. She was super motivated about EVERYTHING. A real crackerjack. My kids did this, too. It was dh's idea -- he was in charge of escorting them around for sales (and insisted that all sales be door-to-door -- absolutely no sales to his colleagues at work). It was very educational for dds, overall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 We've always had good luck with our booths and rarely have many extra boxes (and they're invariably "the healthy ones"). Our troop does have to preorder to stock the booths because you need cookies in hand for immediate delivery. I've done this for 6 years and we've never had any issues with buying too many. If we do have some leftovers we serve them as snacks at a meeting or two and we're done. The younger girls are always super excited to sell cookies at the booths. It makes them feel responsible and like they're doing a grown-up job. I know a lot of people resent the cut that council takes from the cookie sales but as my troop has gotten older, I've started to appreciate council more. They run the camps! They offer older girl programs that need more expertise than I can bring to badge work! They maintain a fleet of sun fish for their sailing program and a herd of horses for riding camps! They have lots of training options so you can manage to get it done. They offer lots of opportunities to older scouts that would be impossible for the average troop to manage on its own. I'm sorry your cookie mom is a nut, Mergath. That sucks the joy out of cookie sales. I can only dream of such a council.😒 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 That would come from the bakery's piece of the pie (or cookie) and is part of their expenses for doing business. Ultimately, the customer pays for everything of course. It definitely pushes National to push the cookie sales, though. The more cookies the troops buy, the more money the GS CEO rakes in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancingmama Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I have been in three different troops, in three different councils and have never been pushed to sell cookies. Encouraged, yes, but never pushed. I'm sorry you're getting such an experience. My daughter loves selling cookies and has learned so much from the experience. She has sold between five hundred and a thousand boxes for the last five years, mainly from cookie booths and repeat customers. Here people hunt me down starting in December to place their orders. She's very involved because she does pay for her own camp experience with what she earns but she also uses the earnings with her troop for their service projects. She can't make you sell cookies. I'd bring it up the ladder. That just sounds like an over eager volunteer than what GS promotes. I really am sorry you've had such a bad experience. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 It definitely pushes National to push the cookie sales, though. The more cookies the troops buy, the more money the GS CEO rakes in. I only have experience with one council, but I never felt "pushed" about anything with cookies. My contact with national was limited to sending in annual dues and receiving literature from them. I'm not sure how the rah rah stuff in the cookie packet could be taken seriously as aggressive or pushing. I mean, the cookie packet isn't supposed to sound indifferent to cookie sales, but I felt no stress when I went over it. I haven't given much thought to the CEO of GSUSA. I'd expect the CEO of any national organization to make a super cushy living. Who would do it otherwise? Nobody will sign up to volunteer for that or do it for a teacher's salary. I'm guessing it would consume your entire life. Now, don't get me started on the 1% and tax benefits and whatnot, but that's a national problem, not a GS issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 4-H cookie sales for us was very low key. I decided how many boxes I wanted to be responsible for and then I wrote a check so I didn't have to keep track of anything. haha The kids sold what they could and the rest was our donation. I would use them at kid or church events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) :) Edited March 22, 2016 by Texas T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawthorne44 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Yeah this is what it was like when I was a girl scout. We supposedly raised all kinds of money, but I don't know where it went. Oh I know where some of it went. The troop leaders announced that they were going out to dinner with some of the money as a thank you from us for their hard work. :cursing: Even as a young kid I thought that was crap. I quit after. My last troop leader actually stole our money. My mom called the council who basically said, "Too bad, so sad." We had money to go camping and there was one girl who was a social striver and she was frequently too busy for many weekends. When she was free, the leader wasn't. The leader declared that we had to find a weekend when everyone could go. Because she'd spent all of our money. Around the time that this was coming to light, my mother saw the troop leaders name on a short list of names at a mall store of "Never Accept A Check From This Person". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 We had the option of DD meeting a sales goal, or me paying $300 out of pocket so she could go on the troop trip to Disneyland. It was her first year, so her enthusiasm was high at the beginning, and she committed to every troop booth sale as well as setting up an online store and doing some door to door (limited by the rule that an adult has to accompany). By the end of cookie season, she was not so enthusiastic, but she stuck to her commitment and met her goal. I think it was actually a useful learning experience for her. Next year, she'll be able to control her digital cookie site herself, and she'll be on FB, so she might be able to do more with that, but overall next year I expect she will not be so enthusiastic. This was her first year of Girl Scouts. I will say, the leader (who is also the area cookie coordinator) is very organized and made it very easy. She also had a lot of experience from past years and knew what the troop was capable of and what was reasonable as a goal in the local market. The cookie mom you describe would have sent me running for the hills. DD wanted the prizes rather than cookie cash towards camp. Her total sales only would have put like $35 towards camp, which would not have put it in reach for us this year. Maybe next year--though to send her to camp next year we may have to look out of council as they don't seem to have much in the way of summer camp opportunities past 7th or 8th grade here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Mergath, I'm so sorry you have such a lunatic for a cookie mom. What an idiot!! Dd had fun in her years as a GS, but the troop was run rather strangely. It was through the very small Catholic school through our church. Every girl in the grade was in the troop - like nearly 20 girls. DD was so disappointed that GS was so whimpy compared to Boy Scouts - no camping, no hiking, no high adventures. She did like the "girly things", but wanted more. They never really pushed cookie sales. The troop took out some to sell at one or two storefront events and each girl sold some on her own. No pressure. I didn't know what they did with that $$ but our participation was low-key. It turns out in 4th grade, they girls went on a weekend to a horse ranch for free. With the rest of the $$, they went to a fun Japanese restaurant. I found out later that the troop ended at 4th grade because the school offered sports for grades 5 and up and they needed as many kids as possible to participate. Nevermind that there were lots of girls who would rather have done GS than sports. I tried to organize the moms of these girls to do a troop, but it never materialized. We then discovered 4-H. I wonder if this varies by county or state? We've never had to do fundraising to show at the fair. Is that to show at county fair or state fair? Kelly Same here. We have a county fair association that maintains the buildings and a 4-H Foundation that covers other expenses of showing at the fair. . We are always encouraged to help out at the county Foundation fundraising events, but those are low-key and they are usually events rather than selling (like running concessions at an existing event to get the profits or something like that.) Participation is optional (no pressure) and most people are willing to do them if they can fit them in their schedule. I think there are only two selling fundraisers and they are completely optional and very low-key. One is to sell a coupon book for a local department store for like $10 and it has over $200 in coupons, good only for a specific weekend. People who have a reason to shop at that store will buy one because it is a great deal. The other one is selling raffle tickets for the County Fair at a $1 a piece. The prize for selling over a certain amount (I don't remember the number because none of my kids were willing to sell that much) was a pass to get on all the fair rides for free for a day. Some kids really want that prize so they work for it. But, most families buy a $10 pack as a donation and call it a day (still optional - no one is required to sell a ticket.) We have no required fundraisers here for showing at the county fair, and no entrance fees either. Some clubs do fundraisers if they have updates to their barns or exhibit areas they would like to make that the county fair board does not want to pay for, but otherwise everyone pays their own expenses for being there. The fair board does a pretty good job of maintaining most of the buildings for us. We have one equine-based club that does fundraisers for their equipment and events. But that is it. Our county has membership dues of $20 and our club has membership dues of $8.75 per member (under a $1 per meeting) to cover club expenses. Margaret, your fair doesn't have open show? We have open show everything for agriculture for adults and some for teens, plus open show quilting, sewing, needlework, canning and preserving, woodworking, and photography. We have open show for animals and horse shows as well. The open shows do require entrance fees - nominal ones. 4-H programming pays for the shows and exhibits along with the fair board so no entrance fees. But no premiums either, and the ribbons for Best of Show are pathetic. I am not happy about that because it is a real accomplishment to get one of those things so I think it wouldn't kill the 4-H office and fair board to get nicer ones. We have an open class that anyone (including 4-H members) can enter. I think they charge $1 per entry. I might put in a couple of things this year. I usually never get around to it myself because I am usually too busy with my kids stuff during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomeontheprairie Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 We do 4 H. Fundraising is still required if your kid wants to show stuff in the fair. But- our fundraiser is cheese & you only need to sell one block. I stock up for the holidays, as its delivered before Thanksgiving. I just want to point out that this isn't the case everywhere. We are in 4-H and we don't sell anything. Well not like this. the kids run the food booth at the fair, and the county is nice enough that the 4-H is the only one with a food booth. It's a three-day fundraiser and brings in a lot of cash. Bit no door to door type selling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebrindam Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Yeah this is what it was like when I was a girl scout. We supposedly raised all kinds of money, but I don't know where it went. Oh I know where some of it went. The troop leaders announced that they were going out to dinner with some of the money as a thank you from us for their hard work. :cursing: Even as a young kid I thought that was crap. I quit after. That's pretty bad. I've never taken a dime from our troop, but I've given hundreds of dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.