Love & Hate

[Ginevra]

This is something I have been mulling over in my mind since the articles about "the wrong meat" and "dish by the sink" etc.

 

So, my basic observation(not profound by any means) is this: when you feel love for someone, you are likely to tolerate, overlook, and agree to disagree with the person. (This is true no matter the type of relationship, although it may go further with parent/child than others.) When you don't love someone, you are more likely to be annoyed by them, offended by what they do or say, possibly become very angry, and possibly find fault where there isn't any, as you seek confirmation of your "this dude is a butthead" belief. This is when the dish left by the sink becomes the deal-breaker.

 

However, sometimes people do get to that point in a relationship, yet they turn it around. i guess there are several roads by which this could happen, but it seems that at some point, one or both parties stop looking for the dish left beside the sink again and they get over it, or the dish-leaver reforms and stops doing this thing that is purportedly driving his wife insane. Surely, too, there are many other behaviours that one or both parties is annoyed by, so we can assume it's not going to be one untidy habit that has to come to a meeting point.

 

What I'm thinking and wondering about is: why does it change? If you were once able to see past the sink, why can't you abide it now? Or, if you were once willing to change your habit and put the dish away, why will you refuse now? If two people go down a road where they are playing Tit for Tat all day long, what makes them stop doing that and turn it around? And why does that *ever* work? It also seems to me that when one person deeply resents another for an event or series of events, it might be irretrievable...but maybe not. If it IS retrievable, why is it?

 

So, there you go. Simple question I would love to hear others' views on. :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

My thought is that because it isn't about one thing like a dish by the sink.  I mean really if that were "the" thing it would be kinda crazy if this were a deal breaker in and of itself.  It is probably one symptom among several other symptoms and all the symptoms make a person feel pretty lousy.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That and it seems to me (it only seems to me I do not know if this is a fact) that a lot of people go into a relationship (I mean one involving a commitment such as marriage) with unrealistic expectations.  Things aren't always going to be hot, effortless, and rosy.  Looks fade. Passion fades.  Life gets real.  Stuff stresses you out left and right.  Some people don't want to deal.  Some people think the other person is supposed to be the rock or put full on effort into stuff.  And they often do not.  Or maybe they never do.

 

 

[Guest]

Quill, this isn't a direct answer to your question, but more of an additional part of it:  Dr. Gottmann (sp?) did research on why some marriages succeed and others fail.  As with everything, some parts of what I read of his work stand out more than others...and this part has always stuck with me.  He saw a pattern in when divorces occur, and of course these inflection points can be affected by the timing of children and so on, but I always thought this was interesting.

 

He found this pattern:  that there is an inflection point toward divorce at four points in a marriage, and he tied them loosely to these years and reasons:

 

Three years:  Reason:  WHAT were we thinking?  We should never have gotten married.  Generally this is pre-children, by the way.

Seven years:  Reason:  This is the way it is always going to be.  It is never going to change or get any better.  This is the one that relates most to your question, above, I think.  What is it that makes this inflection happen, and the change of commitment/feeling take place?

Thirteen years:  Reason:  Is this all there is?  This point is pretty closely related to what is often recognized as / called a "mid-life crisis."  It's not about the marriage anymore, but about the personal development and reason for living of one person.  

Twenty-five years:  Reason:  We've drifted apart; we don't have anything in common anymore.  Subconsciously, it might also be 'we stuck it out until the kids were grown, but I've really been done for a long time."  It's not unrelated to "is this all there is" but is delayed in action due to concern for others.  

 

Anyway, I think your question relates pretty closely to the seven- and thirteen-year questions.  And what it is that makes a person change in relationship to another, or able to stick it out and deal with it.  

 

I'll tell you one example from my life:  I was sick to DEATH of always being late for everything.  Always.  Everything.  I'm not "on time" unless I'm five minutes early; my dh will leave for an event thirty minutes away about the time I think we should be getting there.  OK, so at 3 years, I'm annoyed.  At 7 years, I had a choice...and rather than being perpetually annoyed, while recognizing that HE wasn't going to change, I decided I was.  After we were late for church YET AGAIN, I told him flat out, "That just cost you $5,000.  We're going by the Honda dealership on the way home, and I'm coming home in a  new car."  (We've been married 34 years now, and we still take separate cars to church.  LOL.)  While that might seem like a petty thing to get twisted about, it's what I got twisted about.  There are other things that we have BOTH had to decide we could bear or that we would sincerely ask the other to be mindful of (not to change but to be aware that a behavior irritates--and then leave it to the other person to change...one can only change oneself, if that).  I'm just hardwired to be punctual.  But my job is not to be angry.  

 

I'm blabbering again.  I suspect this is one of the things my dh has had to "get over" about me.  LOL

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I used the term 'corrosive' in the other thread, and I think it applies.  Corrosion is slow but eventually destructive.

[Guest]

Patty J, I think I read a book by Gotman. I think he was the one who said that the "divorce predictor" trait he saw again and again was contempt. And I can easily see how comtempt could exist where some behaviour goes on happening, the spouse never alters and the contemptuous spouse does not believe they can tolerate it any more.

 

And yes, I can see those patterns happening at pretty much those time points.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I got kicked all around the playground for saying this in the other thread, so I'm kinda scared to say it in this one...but what stops me from carrying on like a pork chop over most of the annoying stuff ? Which let's face it, is just someone doing things differently to me - not better, not worse, different.

 

Realizing that the only person I can change is me. 

 

I can choose to let go of the metaphorical glass, or I can choose to take care of the metaphorical glass, because it's important to me. What I can't do is insist that other value the glass the same way I do. 

 

I swear, if anyone jumps on  me for being disrespectful of their families by this post, I will scream. I am thinking about ME and MY FAMILY in response to QUILL ONLY>

 

Huh, didn't see that.  What you say here sounds reasonable to me.

[Guest]

Patty J, I think I read a book by Gotman. I think he was the one who said that the "divorce predictor" trait he saw again and again was contempt. And I can easily see how comtempt could exist where some behaviour goes on happening, the spouse never alters and the contemptuous spouse does not believe they can tolerate it any more.

 

And yes, I can see those patterns happening at pretty much those time points.

 

I remember that comment in his writings, too.  

 

I might be a little blind or in denial here, but I wouldn't go so far as to call my dh's lateness "contempt" for me; I really think he is just hardwired not to understand the passage of time.  I read about THAT somewhere else, that there are people who are very aware of the passage of time (like they can tell within a second or two when 5 minutes has passed); others have *no* awareness of it.  

 

I had a moment of clarity about 15 years in that when my dh said he would "be right there" and then showed up 20 minutes later, he had no idea that 20 minutes had passed.  I, on the other hand, was completely aware that not only 20 minutes had passed; exactly 21.5 minutes had passed.  :0)  

 

My son is the same way.  So over the years, I've just managed to find ways of letting people know when it is really important that we are *in the car, driving out of the cul-de-sac* at a specific time.  And I have my own car.  

 

I am a time savant in a house of time idiots.  :0)  (And I say that in good humor, not contemptuously...truly.)  (It's a joke.)

[Guest]

This is something I have been mulling over in my mind since the articles about "the wrong meat" and "dish by the sink" etc.

 

So, my basic observation(not profound by any means) is this: when you feel love for someone, you are likely to tolerate, overlook, and agree to disagree with the person. (This is true no matter the type of relationship, although it may go further with parent/child than others.) When you don't love someone, you are more likely to be a

 

This is not my experience. For *me* (not speaking even for the other people in my relationships much less people in general), loving someone has no effect on how likely I am to be annoyed with them, or how often I disagree with them. I agree with people when they're right ( :coolgleamA:  ), I disagree with them when they're wrong, and if they're being a jerk, that's true whether I love them or not. I tolerate what I can and don't what I can't. If anything, I can tolerate MUCH LESS from loved ones than acquaintances, because loved ones are (optimistically) forever and others are not.

 

When it changes, in a relationship?......I suspect it's when people have been pushed past their personal limits too many times.

 

Some people set arbitary personal limits. That's not smart.

 

Some people never set limits. That's not safe.

 

So when a bad dynamic is fixable, I think it's because no one has met their internal limit on limit-breeching. When it's not fixable, it's because someone went too far, too many times.

Edited January 28, 2016 by OKBud

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is not my experience. For *me* (not speaking even for the other people in my relationships much less people in general), loving someone has no effect on how likely I am to be annoyed with them, or how often I disagree with them. I agree with people when they're right ( :coolgleamA:  ), I disagree with them when they're wrong, and if they're being a jerk, that's true whether I love them or not. I tolerate what I can and don't what I can't. If anything, I can tolerate MUCH LESS from loved ones than acquaintances, because loved ones are (optimistically) forever and others are not.

 

When it changes, in a relationship?......I suspect it's when people have been pushed past their personal limits too many times.

 

Some people set arbitary personal limits. That's not smart.

 

Some people never set limits. That's not safe.

 

Just wanted to get your attention.  This might come out wrong, but I really like your mushroom.

[Guest]

Just wanted to get your attention.  This might come out wrong, but I really like your mushroom.

 

Hey girl, this mushroom's for you.

 

[sorry Quill!]

[Bluegoat]

I think that is a really good question - I'm not sure I have an adaquate answer.

 

The idea of the point where someone things "it will always be like this" resonated with me.  I think that can be big things, but also small things.  I've occasionally had a feeling like that, but I always put the breaks on in a "this way lies madness" kind of way.  My feeling, and I haven't thought about this before and am not sure why I feel this - is that attitude can and will arise in almost any kind of commoitment or life if you let it, and will lead to unhappeness and inability to be peaceful.

 

I also think Sadie's idea about only being able to control oneself is important, and to me it goes right along with the idea that people expect something unrealistic in a marraige.  I tend to think that marriage should fundamentally be treated the way blood relationships are - you have a tie to these people that is objective, you have to deal with them what comes.  Which isn't to say that you can't try and improve a bad relation, or that there are never cases where it really is appropriate to cut people off, but that even then there is a connection.  When people take that view, I think it can become easier to let go and take people as they are - which isn't all about you. 

 

Actually, I think the same methods are helpful for dealing with difficult relatives.

 

One other thing I think of - I think there is a real tendency for us to hang our own baggage on our partner.  Sometimes it's bad baggage which has obvious problems, but other times it seems tood - we romanticise them, or see them as wise, or want them to take care of us like a sort of hero.  We create a narrative for them.  But in the end, those stories are made up, that baggage is our own, and no one can live up to being a romantic hero.  We have to own all that stuff for ourselves.

[Scarlett]

I remember that comment in his writings, too.

 

I might be a little blind or in denial here, but I wouldn't go so far as to call my dh's lateness "contempt" for me; I really think he is just hardwired not to understand the passage of time. I read about THAT somewhere else, that there are people who are very aware of the passage of time (like they can tell within a second or two when 5 minutes has passed); others have *no* awareness of it.

 

I had a moment of clarity about 15 years in that when my dh said he would "be right there" and then showed up 20 minutes later, he had no idea that 20 minutes had passed. I, on the other hand, was completely aware that not only 20 minutes had passed; exactly 21.5 minutes had passed. :0)

 

My son is the same way. So over the years, I've just managed to find ways of letting people know when it is really important that we are *in the car, driving out of the cul-de-sac* at a specific time. And I have my own car.

 

I am a time savant in a house of time idiots. :0) (And I say that in good humor, not contemptuously...truly.) (It's a joke.)

I think I easily could have turned into contempt if you had not been proactive and found a solution.

[fraidycat]

I love my family members. My DH and my children. Beyond measure.

 

They are also the people *most likely* to drive me right up the proverbial wall. So I experience the love vs. annoyance thing in direct contrast to your observation as lack of love= annoyance. I can easily bypass and overlook the "village idiots" when I have no emotional tie to them.

 

As for making a marriage work: I've also directly experienced that the love languages and love bank (5 Love Languages & His Needs, Her Needs) do exist and are very helpful in understanding the person on the other side of the relationship. Some people do this intuitively, others need a little guidance.

 

There is such an intertwining of give and take going in any given relationship that there is no one, single linear answer to any question about how or why. Ever.

[Scarlett]

Having had a failed long term marriage I have given this a lot of thought.

 

I think sometimes when we begin to view a person in a certain way we are absolutely blind to any changes that person makes. (Good or bad).

 

Relationships take attention. That is not the same thing as work to me....the attention I give my current marriage is a joy. But I absolutely do not ignore or tolerate in silence my Dh.

[DesertBlossom]

I don't know if this really goes along with what you're saying, but it made me think of it.

 

A good friend said that her husband mentioned that when he was having a hard time loving her, he would do service for her. At first she was like "when you have a hard time loving me?" 😉 But honestly who doesn't have a hard time loving their spouse now and then? I think it's true that it's hard not to like or love someone when you are helping them. Even if it's a "fake it till you make it" kind of situation. It can turn that glass on the counter situation into an act of love instead of an opportunity for contempt.

[fraidycat]

I remember that comment in his writings, too.

 

I might be a little blind or in denial here, but I wouldn't go so far as to call my dh's lateness "contempt" for me; I really think he is just hardwired not to understand the passage of time. I read about THAT somewhere else, that there are people who are very aware of the passage of time (like they can tell within a second or two when 5 minutes has passed); others have *no* awareness of it.

 

I had a moment of clarity about 15 years in that when my dh said he would "be right there" and then showed up 20 minutes later, he had no idea that 20 minutes had passed. I, on the other hand, was completely aware that not only 20 minutes had passed; exactly 21.5 minutes had passed. :0)

 

My son is the same way. So over the years, I've just managed to find ways of letting people know when it is really important that we are *in the car, driving out of the cul-de-sac* at a specific time. And I have my own car.

 

I am a time savant in a house of time idiots. :0) (And I say that in good humor, not contemptuously...truly.) (It's a joke.)

Your DH's lateness may not have been contempt. But the dude next door doing the exact same thing to his wife might have been showing contempt, ya know? "I'll get there when I get there and she'll damn well live with it" kind of mentality.

 

It's not a one size fits all.

 

Some might even see your ultimatum to stop at the car dealer as contempt toward your DH. Others see it as doing the best you can. Same interaction. Different view.

 

There is so much more under the surface of any interaction than just love/hate/annoyance/contempt.

 

It's never black and white.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

 

why does it change? If you were once able to see past the sink, why can't you abide it now? Or, if you were once willing to change your habit and put the dish away, why will you refuse now?

 

I think this has a lot to do with what C.S. Lewis termed "the horror of the Same Old Thing" in the Screwtape Letters which reads as follows: "The horror of the Same Old Thing is one of the most valuable passions we have produced in the human heart—an endless source of heresies in religion, folly in counsel, infidelity in marriage, and inconstancy in friendship." When we are in the beginning of a relationship, we are much more magnanimous than after years of time spent together with one person, year in and year out. We are willing to put ourselves second or third because we are still establishing the good image that we want our beloveds to have of us. Once we feel comfortable that our partners are convinced of our goodness and worthiness, we allow ourselves to grow complacent and we stop working to impress our loved ones. As time progresses, we begin to notice how quickly time is passing and we begin to panic. Enter the second concept from the Screwtape Letters that infects our souls: "the curious assumption [that] ‘My time is my own’." In letter 21 of the Screwtape Letters, Screwtape tells Wormwood the following:

 

 

Now you will have noticed that nothing throws him into a passion so easily as to find a tract of time which he reckoned on having at his own disposal unexpectedly taken from him. It is the unexpected visitor (when he looked forward to a quiet evening), or the friend’s talkative wife (turning up when he looked forward to a tête-a -tête with the friend), that throw him out of gear. Now he is not yet so uncharitable or slothful that these small demands on his courtesy are in themselves too much for it. They anger him because he regards his time as his own and feels that it is being stolen. You must therefore zealously guard in his mind the curious assumption ‘My time is my own’. Let him have the feeling that he starts each day as the lawful possessor of twenty-four hours. Let him feel as a grievous tax that portion of this property which he has to make over to his employers, and as a generous donation that further portion which he allows to religious duties. But what he must never be permitted to doubt is that the total from which these deductions have been made was, in some mysterious sense, his own personal birthright.

If two people go down a road where they are playing Tit for Tat all day long, what makes them stop doing that and turn it around? And why does that *ever* work? It also seems to me that when one person deeply resents another for an event or series of events, it might be irretrievable...but maybe not. If it IS retrievable, why is it?

 

There are probably many reasons why couples turn the ship around. The tit for tat game gets boring and irksome and since they have no good reason to leave, they decide to change and make the most of what time remains in their lives. Some have near death or near divorce experiences that re-calibrate them toward one another. Some recognize that the person they grew to resent is actually suffering from untreated depression or anxiety and once s/he gets proper treatment, the relationship improves. Some get tired of confessing the same sins time after time and decide that it is much better to turn towards one's partner or spouse than to turn on him/her.

 

I think people easily forget that one's spouse is one's primary witness in this life. It's up to us to decide how the story will go and what we want others to witness. If we suppose that we are going to spend a lifetime with our spouse, we will hopefully decide that we want to bring our best selves forward and bring out the best in our loved ones. I hope I can do this.

Edited January 29, 2016 by TianXiaXueXiao

[Guest]

I think I easily could have turned into contempt if you had not been proactive and found a solution.

 

or if he'd been like "it's stupid for you to get a car, it's NBD if we are always late. You're the one with the problem here, not me."

[fraidycat]

or if he'd been like "it's stupid for you to get a car, it's NBD if we are always late. You're the one with the problem here, not me."

:iagree:

 

"it's NBD if there's a glass on the counter. You're the one with the problem here, not me."

 

That's how it starts.

[Guest]

I think that is a really good question - I'm not sure I have an adaquate answer.

 

The idea of the point where someone things "it will always be like this" resonated with me. I think that can be big things, but also small things. I've occasionally had a feeling like that, but I always put the breaks on in a "this way lies madness" kind of way. My feeling, and I haven't thought about this before and am not sure why I feel this - is that attitude can and will arise in almost any kind of commoitment or life if you let it, and will lead to unhappeness and inability to be peaceful.

 

I also think Sadie's idea about only being able to control oneself is important, and to me it goes right along with the idea that people expect something unrealistic in a marraige. I tend to think that marriage should fundamentally be treated the way blood relationships are - you have a tie to these people that is objective, you have to deal with them what comes. Which isn't to say that you can't try and improve a bad relation, or that there are never cases where it really is appropriate to cut people off, but that even then there is a connection. When people take that view, I think it can become easier to let go and take people as they are - which isn't all about you.

 

Actually, I think the same methods are helpful for dealing with difficult relatives.

 

One other thing I think of - I think there is a real tendency for us to hang our own baggage on our partner. Sometimes it's bad baggage which has obvious problems, but other times it seems tood - we romanticise them, or see them as wise, or want them to take care of us like a sort of hero. We create a narrative for them. But in the end, those stories are made up, that baggage is our own, and no one can live up to being a romantic hero. We have to own all that stuff for ourselves.

I like this. I have never been that interested in "romantic" notions. I am a very practical person and I carry that into relationships. My mother and one of my sisters had a very "romantic" view of what a guy should do/be; for my sister at least, I think her continually-dashed hopes were a major source of unhappiness for her.

 

I also agree very much with what Sadie said, that it's important to realize you can only choose your own response.

[Guest]

Your DH's lateness may not have been contempt. But the dude next door doing the exact same thing to his wife might have been showing contempt, ya know? "I'll get there when I get there and she'll damn well live with it" kind of mentality.

 

It's not a one size fits all.

 

Some might even see your ultimatum to stop at the car dealer as contempt toward your DH. Others see it as doing the best you can. Same interaction. Different view.

 

There is so much more under the surface of any interaction than just love/hate/annoyance/contempt.

 

It's never black and white.

 

Agreed.

[Guest]

I think I easily could have turned into contempt if you had not been proactive and found a solution.

 

I think the battle happened inside my head when I decided to choose empathy rather than judgment.  It's not like being like I am is any better than being like HE is.  It's just different...but I needed a solution to make it that reflected that reality.  I couldn't any more stop being punctual than he could start, KWIM?  I tried.  I couldn't do it.  So instead of assuming that he was an ass, I decided to assume we are alike -- made this way -- and find something that fit that reality.  

 

One of my friends had exactly the same issue in her marriage, but she was the late one.  She decided to change to be on time *for things that matter to her dh* as an act of love toward him, BUT he also agreed to change to give her some latitude.  THAT has worked out for 25 years so far.  She's still late for everything WE do though.  LOL.  

[Guest]

This is not my experience. For *me* (not speaking even for the other people in my relationships much less people in general), loving someone has no effect on how likely I am to be annoyed with them, or how often I disagree with them. I agree with people when they're right ( :coolgleamA: ), I disagree with them when they're wrong, and if they're being a jerk, that's true whether I love them or not. I tolerate what I can and don't what I can't. If anything, I can tolerate MUCH LESS from loved ones than acquaintances, because loved ones are (optimistically) forever and others are not.

 

When it changes, in a relationship?......I suspect it's when people have been pushed past their personal limits too many times.

 

Some people set arbitary personal limits. That's not smart.

 

Some people never set limits. That's not safe.

 

So when a bad dynamic is fixable, I think it's because no one has met their internal limit on limit-breeching. When it's not fixable, it's because someone went too far, too many times.

So, you don't find that you become less patient when someone whom you don't much like does something annoying compared with someone you love? That's very curious to me. Here's a small example of something irritating. (It's ridiculous, as all such things are.)

 

My SIL, who has been my work partner for 20 years, (10 of which I don't much like her) manages her inbox in a way I find inefficient and irritating. She stuffs it with a bazillion things; she keeps things in there as storage. I do not do this. My goal is always to get my inbox totally empty. I never keep things in there as filing; if it's in my inbox, it is active work I must address ASAP. So, in one sense, whatevs...her inbox, who cares, her problem, blah, blah, blah. But sometimes I am trying to find something and have to sift through all that choas just to determine if the important thing is there or not. In these times, I stew and mutter about the way she keeps her inbox. However, I think the important point is that I don't like her. My graciousness towards her is thin to start with. Also, there is no practical benefit to being nice yo her, compared with someone whom I do love, KWIM?

 

Interestingly, DH does something extremely similar with his mail slot at our house. When we moved here, I gave him a mail slot on the desk with the goal that if something important had to be addressed by him, he would immediately notice it because otherwise it would be empty. But that is not what has happened. He keeps the mail slot stuffed with irrelevant garbage. He might have something very significant (tag renewal for his truck) smooshed forgotten behind the Duluth Trading catalog and some expired McDonalds coupons. I think it's dumb, but it doesn't make me angry. Even when I have to go treadure hunting in there to find something that was important and I meant for him to see, it still doesn't bother me much. I'm likely to shake my head and say, "Dude. Your truck expired three weeks ago. This is why you shouldn't keep all this junk stuffed in here." But it doesn't make me mad. I might even smile and go, "Wow ADD."

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes I think when you feel love for someone you tend to be more tolerant.  I do think that you can still love someone but find yourself less and less tolerant over time.  Usually that means, at least for me, that something more serious, or maybe several somethings, is an ongoing issue that is not being addressed so the "little" thing or things ends up being the thing that gets focused on.  Not very productive but there you are.

 

And I also think there are sometimes some things that trigger an irrational reaction, regardless of how much we love the other person.  For instance, when DH and I first married, we discovered that we both had a habit that really, really, really irrationally irritated the other.  For him, he hated that I ate sardines on crackers.  The smell and the sight of the tail flipping up drove him nuts and made him nauseous. DH is not a terribly tolerant person, however, so his reaction was not unexpected in the grand scheme of things.  

 

I, however, am usually quite tolerant of all kinds of things so I rarely have a specific something that bugs me (although I am not as tolerant a person as I used to be.) For me, I really irrationally could not stand that he sucked his jello back and forth between his teeth several times before he would swallow it.  I was honestly surprised at myself for how irritated I would become when he sucked jello.  The sound drove me nuts, even though I recognized that my reaction was silly.  

 

These are little things.  They shouldn't make a hill of beans of difference but they really bugged us.  We loved each other, though, so we agreed to eat jello and sardines when the other one wasn't around.  That agreement has stood for 20 years.   :lol:

[Scarlett]

When I was a kid....I overheard a friend of my mom's tell this

 

"My father told me that if one marries the wrong person the day will come when there is nothing that can do right in your eyes. The way they hold their fork will irritate you".

 

I think of that often.

[Guest]

So, you don't find that you become less patient when someone whom you don't much like does something annoying compared with someone you love? That's very curious to me. Here's a small example of something irritating. (It's ridiculous, as all such things are.)

 

My SIL, who has been my work partner for 20 years, (10 of which I don't much like her) manages her inbox in a way I find inefficient and irritating. She stuffs it with a bazillion things; she keeps things in there as storage. I do not do this. My goal is always to get my inbox totally empty. I never keep things in there as filing; if it's in my inbox, it is active work I must address ASAP. So, in one sense, whatevs...her inbox, who cares, her problem, blah, blah, blah. But sometimes I am trying to find something and have to sift through all that choas just to determine if the important thing is there or not. In these times, I stew and mutter about the way she keeps her inbox. However, I think the important point is that I don't like her. My graciousness towards her is thin to start with. Also, there is no practical benefit to being nice yo her, compared with someone whom I do love, KWIM?

 

Interestingly, DH does something extremely similar with his mail slot at our house. When we moved here, I gave him a mail slot on the desk with the goal that if something important had to be addressed by him, he would immediately notice it because otherwise it would be empty. But that is not what has happened. He keeps the mail slot stuffed with irrelevant garbage. He might have something very significant (tag renewal for his truck) smooshed forgotten behind the Duluth Trading catalog and some expired McDonalds coupons. I think it's dumb, but it doesn't make me angry. Even when I have to go treadure hunting in there to find something that was important and I meant for him to see, it still doesn't bother me much. I'm likely to shake my head and say, "Dude. Your truck expired three weeks ago. This is why you shouldn't keep all this junk stuffed in here." But it doesn't make me mad. I might even smile and go, "Wow ADD."

 

No. I would be much more annoyed with my DH in this scenario. I would know his whole thought process that ended him up in this position, every step along the way where he could have made better choices...plus I'd know how he feels about the outcome and know he knows how I feel about it.

 

But! with my husband I'd be able say "Dag on man, this situation is annoying!" and he'd be like "yep" or "Oh sorry babe" or whatever. NBD...small ridiculous things like this are not given more power in my life than if I was more apt to patience toward loved ones than non.

[Scarlett]

Since we have been married Dh has done a number of things that have upset me so bad I thought I would have a heart attack. Because they were/are things that affect me. Buying a car without getting a properly signed title. Not following through with legal issues involving his kids that I can't do for him. Not following through on getting another vehicle,title corrected....it shows a lein and should not. Getting the notice for tag renewal out of the mail and keeping it in his truck unto it was expired. If that was my co worker I would just think wow.....but all of those things affect me......

 

But at the end of the day I try to put them in perspective. When I complain he strives to fix what he can. He doesn't just dismiss me.

[Scarlett]

Yes I think when you feel love for someone you tend to be more tolerant. I do think that you can still love someone but find yourself less and less tolerant over time. Usually that means, at least for me, that something more serious, or maybe several somethings, is an ongoing issue that is not being addressed so the "little" thing or things ends up being the thing that gets focused on. Not very productive but there you are.

 

And I also think there are sometimes some things that trigger an irrational reaction, regardless of how much we love the other person. For instance, when DH and I first married, we discovered that we both had a habit that really, really, really irrationally irritated the other. For him, he hated that I ate sardines on crackers. The smell and the sight of the tail flipping up drove him nuts and made him nauseous. DH is not a terribly tolerant person, however, so his reaction was not unexpected in the grand scheme of things.

 

I, however, am usually quite tolerant of all kinds of things so I rarely have a specific something that bugs me (although I am not as tolerant a person as I used to be.) For me, I really irrationally could not stand that he sucked his jello back and forth between his teeth several times before he would swallow it. I was honestly surprised at myself for how irritated I would become when he sucked jello. The sound drove me nuts, even though I recognized that my reaction was silly.

 

These are little things. They shouldn't make a hill of beans of difference but they really bugged us. We loved each other, though, so we agreed to eat jello and sardines when the other one wasn't around. That agreement has stood for 20 years. :lol:

I like this. :)

[Guest]

I am a *huge* believer in personality types. Because when I really started digging into mine it gave me...I dunno...words to talk about how I am.

 

Anyway part of my deal (and this is common among similar people), is that I hold close loved ones to high standards. That I think they can meet them, is part of why they are close loved ones in the first place. I respect them on another, deeper, level, ykwim?

 

OTOH, I have low or no expectations for people I don't know well. Why would I? What do I care what strangers or my inlaws or my eejit uncles or whoever do?

 

[i understand why others are less patient with people they already don't like. I'm just not wired that way.]

[Scarlett]

I am a *huge* believer in personality types. Because when I really started digging into mine it gave me...I dunno...words to talk about how I am.

 

Anyway part of my deal (and this is common among similar people), is that I hold close loved ones to high standards. That I think they can meet them, is part of why they are close loved ones in the first place. I respect them on another, deeper, level, ykwim?

 

OTOH, I have low or no expectations for people I don't know well. Why would I? What do I care what strangers or my inlaws or my eejit uncles or whoever do?

 

[i understand why others are less patient with people they already don't like. I'm just not wired that way.]

My son and his friends are HUGE into personality types. They have like a spreadsheet of everyone they know.

[Guest]

My son and his friends are HUGE into personality types. They have like a spreadsheet of everyone they know.

 

:laugh: :laugh:  That's funny, but I bet it's a huge help sometimes! And lol @ how only certain personality types would be inclined to keep a spreadsheet of their friend's over-arching personality types :lol:

[zoobie]

My thought is that because it isn't about one thing like a dish by the sink. I mean really if that were "the" thing it would be kinda crazy if this were a deal breaker in and of itself. It is probably one symptom among several other symptoms and all the symptoms make a person feel pretty lousy.

I agree.

 

Three friends posted the blog on my FB feed. Two women, one guy. One woman has worked incredibly hard on her marriage and forgiven adultery at least twice, but went as far as serving him with divorce papers and separating for a while. Another divorced after adultery (though they also tried to reconcile). The man has been married and divorced 3 times. Each of their "glass by the sink" moments were something different. A soured load of laundry, forgotten in the washer. A missed appointment. An overdraft debit charge. Not one of them walked out of the relationship literally over that laundry or appointment or glass by the sink.

 

When one person feels, rightly or wrongly, that he or she is doing all the heavy lifting in the relationship, and she sees The Glass, it becomes the tangible symbol of everything the other person is unwilling to do for her. He can't be faithful or respectful or even put his damn glass in the dishwasher. That moment she realizes it's never going to change. She either leaves or, like Patty Joanna, goes and buys a car. (You rock!)

[EndOfOrdinary]

I have no real answers, only perspectives. As someone whose spouse currently has moments that create extreme bitterness in me, I don't even know if my perspectives are sane. However, I am really trying to turn the corner on my anger/hurt/frustration.

 

Dh hurt me extremely about three years ago. Multiple times over about three or four months it felt like he said one thing, I emotionally trusted him with extensive personal vulnerability, and he acted the exact opposite of what he had promised. Now, that is my version. I can honestly say that I do not think there was malicious intent. However, part of my hurt is that he did not in any way think about my world, my personality, my needs. He responded only with his own - words he wanted to hear, actions he wanted to see, things of meaning to him. I REALLY needed him and was in a very scared and dark place. He not only let me down, he drastically hurt me on top of it.

 

Coming away from that situation has been difficult. Some of it is realizing that I own my happiness. Dh is very introverted. If I want to travel, I can. I do not need his permission or him to come. I do not need him to take me to a movie. I can actually do these things without contempt singularly because they make me happy. That has done miles for me! (Dh does NOT like this. He doesn't want to come, but feels left out if I go. I'm trying to figure out a way to help this.)

 

Some of it has been realizing that not one time in Dh's life has he had to think about anyone else's needs. He was basically an only child, raised feral by a single mother working all the time, moved all the time so had no significant friends, never had much of a significant relationship through his twenties, and his first marriage was hinged on both people being extremely independent. He honestly might not ever be able to show love the way I want him to. Not because of fault, but due to being broken in the various ways we are all broken. It is my decision to either provide grace and find support in the ways he can give it, or to be angry he is not what I want him to be.

 

Some of it is like said above, acts of service. I can choose to be molded positively by this experience and try to see the things I do which might frustrate him in similar ways, or I can become grouchy. I was honestly initially very grouchy. It is never fun to become a better person. Now, though I do fail often, I am trying to act much less out of spite and more from a place of growth. Humility in seeing him as a person, and then myself as a person, and then taking the step to how I would want to be treated has greatly helped.

 

Had I been able to support myself and Ds without Dh, I would have left three years ago. Not even a heartbeat of a thought. Now that I look at it again, I think some of that was my naive notion that the world should be MY way. It isn't. I have to grow as well. I have to decide who I want to be. Do I want to stamp my foot and leave because a situation or person do not turn out the way I wanted or do I need to see that my world is only one view?

[Scarlett]

:laugh: :laugh: That's funny, but I bet it's a huge help sometimes! And lol @ how only certain personality types would be inclined to keep a spreadsheet of their friend's over-arching personality types :lol:

their conversations crack me up.

 

""Mandy's dad isINFP".

 

"Well yeah but can we really trust Mandy to type him?"

 

"Robert is ENTP. He typed himself. I wish these people would let me be there when they take the test"

 

"Oh she is a ISFJ". " Well that explains a lot"

 

I do worry he might miss out on some great girl because he thinks their personality type is a bad match, LOL

[The Girls' Mom]

It is all about choices, I think.  

 

I choose to still be here, even though there is a mountain of those d**n glasses by the sink.  I love him and will until the day I die.  On the flip side, there isn't another person on the planet that can irritate me as much as he can.  And I think it is BECAUSE I love him that he has that ability to irritate me so much...lol.  I'm pretty good at brushing other people off if I can't stand what they are doing.  

We've gone through separation.  We were a court date away from being divorced.  I chose to come back.  Every day I choose to stay. I choose whether or not each annoyance/slight against me is a deal breaker.  I think some people just finally reach a point at which they simply can't make that choice any more.  

In staying, I've had to put some mental distance between us.  I've had to learn that it is ok for me to live parts of my life without him.  I still wonder how all this will play out once the kids move out.  

[Mothersweets]

Having had a failed long term marriage I have given this a lot of thought.

 

I think sometimes when we begin to view a person in a certain way we are absolutely blind to any changes that person makes. (Good or bad).

 

Relationships take attention. That is not the same thing as work to me....the attention I give my current marriage is a joy. But I absolutely do not ignore or tolerate in silence my Dh.

 

This is so so true.

[Katy]

I think infatuation sees no flaws.  But infatuation is being in love with your idea of who someone is, not who they actually are.

 

Love is knowing exactly who someone is, flaws and all, and loving them anyway.  Part of that love is assuming the best of them.  So when DH does something that I could get irritated about, I know he didn't do something to hurt me on purpose, and let it go if I can.  I always assume the problem is my own emotional baggage before I confront him, and if I do, I do so gently.  If I can forget it instead, I do.  I know he was trying, he just got distracted by something.  The bonus of this is when he realizes what he did wrong, and knows that his ex would have turned it into a 6 month fight, and I didn't, he's more affectionate for weeks.

 

I think there's something true to the biblical generalization that women need love and men need respect. 

 

I also think there's something true about Proverbs 21:9 - It's better to live on a rooftop than with a contentious or quarrelsome wife.

 

I think that generally men (and children) respond better to praising them when they do something right than they do to correcting them when they do wrong.

 

I think that in most families, women set the mood for the home.  When Mom is happy and joyful and appreciative and gracious, children are too, and husbands are better husbands.

 

I think sometimes an adult being irritable is very much like toddlers throwing temper tantrums - you want what you want when you want it and you don't want to ask for it because the whole world should revolve around you!  This is not a mature way to think or behave, and is definitely not loving.

 

I think it is much easier to be married to someone exactly like you, with the same love languages, gifts, compatible callings and world views, and similar flaws and standards than someone different than you.  I also think it's very difficult to be in a relationship with anyone who is ashamed of themselves.  Whatever level of standards or grace they apply to themselves they will also apply to you.  If they give themselves grace and just try their best, they'll give you grace too.  If they are impossibly hard on themselves and ashamed of who they are, you will never be good enough either.

 

I think it is easy for women to get co-dependent and have their emotions be all wrapped up in someone else's, but it is healthier for everyone to keep firm emotional boundaries and refuse to engage in that.  If your DH is down, his mood will bounce back much faster if you take him some place in nature and say, "I'm sorry you're going through this, but something is off.  Your perspective needs to change.  There is so much to be grateful for.  You can wallow in self-pity and get depressed if you want, but I'm not going to join you.  I'm happy and I'm not going to let your bad mood take my happiness away."

 

I think it's much easier to be married to someone that you trust to make good decisions.  If you know you are married to someone who is at least as wise as you it's SO much easier to pick your battles.  You can trust him to do the right thing, so if it's a small decision you can let him make it and it doesn't bug you because it's not that big of a deal.  If you know much more about the topic than him, and you rarely put your foot down about anything, he's much more likely to hear you when you say, "Absolutely not!  I know more about this than you because __________."

 

I think sometimes when you hold your tongue over small things you learn something.  You learn that you don't have to be in control and you'll still be okay. You learn that his way of loading the dishwasher might be more crowded and might have a few more dirty dishes come out than yours, but more dishes get clean than your way too, so it still saves time.  You learn that sometimes he really is better at picking a restaurant or movie than you are, if if you were in control of every little thing you would have missed some amazing experiences.

 

I think you will inevitably be attracted to someone who has all the flaws of your parents and your unresolved issues from childhood.  I think it's better to date this person (or persons) and not get married or have children until you have learned all you need to know about yourself and what kind of person you want to be first.  I think if you're at the stage where you think passion means either screaming at each other or sex, like Carrie Bradshaw, you don't love him at all.  When you're ready to be happy, you no longer crave drama or bad boys.  You just want someone who you know sees all your flaws and loves you anyway.

 

I think that Michael Leunig quote I always see on Pinterest is true, "Love one another and you will be happy.  It is as simple and difficult as that."

 

I think love is patient, kind, not envious, not boastful, not proud, not dishonoring, not self-seeking, not easy to anger, keeps no record of wrongs, rejoices with truth, always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres.  I think if you love YOU are patient, YOU are kind, YOU are not envious, YOU are not boastful, YOU are not proud, YOU are not dishonoring, YOU are not self-seeking, YOU are not easy to anger, YOU keep no record of wrongs, YOU rejoice with truth, YOU always protect, always trust, always hope, and always persevere.

[kewb]

It took me a long time to accept that most of dh's irksome habits/traits are actually not about me. Have nothing to do with me. Do not involve his feelings towards me or our marriage.

Once I accepted that he is not going to stop being late because he has no concept of time I was happier. Sometimes we take two cars. Sometimes I suck it up and am late. Sometimes I tell him an hour earlier then we really have to be somewhere.

The dish I find in the sink when I come downstairs in the morning is not a slap in my face meant to ruin my day. It means he was tired, his back hurt, and he just wasn't thinking. He did not say to himself "self, I love when my wife wakes me from a sound sleep to lecture me on how thoughtless and inconsiderate I am. Oh, how I look forward to the morning."

 

Over the years there have been times I thought about leaving. Thoughts of how if he truly loved me and cared he wouldn't do xyz. When I really sat down to think about it I asked myself if I was truly doing everything that makes him happy or was I only thinking of myself. I also always ask myself the dear abby/Ann landers question "is my life better with or without him."

 

I think marriages that succeed or turn it around are able to get past themselves and look objectively at the issues.

[Carrie12345]

If two people go down a road where they are playing Tit for Tat all day long, what makes them stop doing that and turn it around? And why does that *ever* work? It also seems to me that when one person deeply resents another for an event or series of events, it might be irretrievable...but maybe not. If it IS retrievable, why is it?

 

Therapy.

JME!

[Guest]

Ime, two things happen to make a relationship go from amicable to tit-for-tat. One is that one party has view points that have become more important to them and they cant convince the other to change to conform, or its impossible for the other to change. For example, they may have married outside their ethnicity or religion. Eduction of the children may be more important to one than another. They cant let it go, and anger starts to come out. The partner starts responding in kind. The other is that personality defects arise, especially feelings of inferiority and superiority as one partner grows and the other does not. The uneducated spouse is now looked down on, even if its the case where s/he could not get an education.

 

My son's roommates just hashed out the sink issue. 4 young men, all raised differently, 2 friends from childhood. The 2 that couldnt handle the dish in the sink had begun a war, but only against the one roommate they didnt consider a friend. The convo went right down to basic human rights. What harm does it do if a bowl and a spoon reside in the sink? Why is this a mountain? And the answer came back that they really did not want the roommate. Didnt know him well enough to like or dislike, but he upset their worldview, and even worse, he didnt fight back.

 

In my marriage, the inlaws try to control. It upsets their worldview to eat food that is outside their culture, to see small children hugged, to provide a college education to the children. What stopped their tit for tat was disengaging. Like any bully, they want an emotional reaction and a feeling of superiority.

 

The partners in the relationship have to grow out of small mindedness.

To the bolded: I'm interested in hearing more about your meaning. Was he a peaceful guy who would not engage in a war for sink rights? Or was he a whipped puppy who would not stand up for his right to put his dishes away or not as he felt moved to do so?

 

I'm thinking of a friendship I had that went south. At the point where I mentally and emotionally decided our friendship was over, it was because I could see that this person only wanted me as a friend on the terms she desired. She wanted me to pour my heart out to her, which I would not do, partially because I don't do that often with anybody, and also because I did not trust her secret-keeping abilities. I already knew her to be a crticizer and a gossip, so I wasn't going to give her subject matter about me. It would be true to say I did not fight for the friendship. I never told her how little I trusted her or things that I thought were not okay about her. So, in a way, I did not engage. But it was also that I could see, hurtful though it was to realize, that I did not want her as a friend, certainly not if she only wanted me as a friend as long as I filled her Perfect Friend fantasies.

[Guest]

I think you will inevitably be attracted to someone who has all the flaws of your parents and your unresolved issues from childhood. I think it's better to date this person (or persons) and not get married or have children until you have learned all you need to know about yourself and what kind of person you want to be first. I think if you're at the stage where you think passion means either screaming at each other or sex, like Carrie Bradshaw, you don't love him at all. When you're ready to be happy, you no longer crave drama or bad boys. You just want someone who you know sees all your flaws and loves you anyway.

I was with you on most of your post, but I can't agree with this part. In my opinion, we are never done, until we die. I don't think anybody is a fully-self aware person, clear on their own mind and motivations, and all ready to set forth in life as the best example of a spouse and parent they could ever be...all by age 30 or 40 or whatever young-ish age would still permit them to actually have a marriage and kids. Also, so much I have learned about myself and other people in the crucible of marriage and kids, not to mention a couple of serious game-changers that impacted me, my kids, my DH profoundly; things I could never have predicted or imagined. These events have made me who I am and it wouldn't exist if I chose a single life that was largely about whatever pleased me.

[Bluegoat]

I was with you on most of your post, but I can't agree with this part. In my opinion, we are never done, until we die. I don't think anybody is a fully-self aware person, clear on their own mind and motivations, and all ready to set forth in life as the best example of a spouse and parent they could ever be...all by age 30 or 40 or whatever young-ish age would still permit them to actually have a marriage and kids. Also, so much I have learned about myself and other people in the crucible of marriage and kids, not to mention a couple of serious game-changers that impacted me, my kids, my DH profoundly; things I could never have predicted or imagined. These events have made me who I am and it wouldn't exist if I chose a single life that was largely about whatever pleased me.

 

I tend to agree with this - I think it is often through marriage and parenthood that we begin to really see ourselves in a different way.

 

However - I do think it is true that if you are really unhappy with yourself it will be a problem in a marriage, and that expecting your partner to somehow be your center, the ground that holds youruniverse together, is going to be a bad scene too.  There are some things a partner can help you accomplish, but they can't actually do that work for you.

[Katy]

I was with you on most of your post, but I can't agree with this part. In my opinion, we are never done, until we die. I don't think anybody is a fully-self aware person, clear on their own mind and motivations, and all ready to set forth in life as the best example of a spouse and parent they could ever be...all by age 30 or 40 or whatever young-ish age would still permit them to actually have a marriage and kids. Also, so much I have learned about myself and other people in the crucible of marriage and kids, not to mention a couple of serious game-changers that impacted me, my kids, my DH profoundly; things I could never have predicted or imagined. These events have made me who I am and it wouldn't exist if I chose a single life that was largely about whatever pleased me.

 

I agree, but you had a commitment to actual love and growing, and I think that can be rare.  Maybe it's a hierarchy of needs thing, or maybe it's a relationship with God thing, but I think that's rare even among Christians.

 

Among my friends who've gotten divorced, most of them married someone they were infatuated with, not someone they loved.  And when they found out that their spouse wasn't who they had imagined them to be, they felt betrayed and lost all respect for them. In some cases they were lying to themselves.  And they didn't feel the need to make the effort to love the person as they actually are, they were just angry and gave up.  In some cases one or both of them had an affair before they legally ended it, but they did end it instead of making the choice to love one another.

 

Anyway, it's weirdly warm, sunny, and windy here today, which keeps making the power flicker on & off.  I'm guessing power lines are getting snapped somewhere.  I'm calling school off for the rest of the day & we're going to the park.  I'll come back later.  I love this thread.

[MaeFlowers]

I haven't read all the responses but here's my two cents (in bold)

This is something I have been mulling over in my mind since the articles about "the wrong meat" and "dish by the sink" etc.

So, my basic observation(not profound by any means) is this: when you feel love for someone, you are likely to tolerate, overlook, and agree to disagree with the person. (This is true no matter the type of relationship, although it may go further with parent/child than others.) When you don't love someone, you are more likely to be annoyed by them, offended by what they do or say, possibly become very angry, and possibly find fault where there isn't any, as you seek confirmation of your "this dude is a butthead" belief. This is when the dish left by the sink becomes the deal-breaker.

 

You can love someone and still think they are a butthead. My Mom told me when I was little, "I will always love you but I might not always like you." I feel this way about my dh. I love him very much and wouldn't trade him in but, yes, I still think (or say), "You're a butthead." I don't think it has to be either/or. There have been times when I thought he could do no wrong. There have been times I thought he could do no right. But, most of the time, it is somewhere in between.

However, sometimes people do get to that point in a relationship, yet they turn it around. i guess there are several roads by which this could happen, but it seems that at some point, one or both parties stop looking for the dish left beside the sink again and they get over it, or the dish-leaver reforms and stops doing this thing that is purportedly driving his wife insane. Surely, too, there are many other behaviours that one or both parties is annoyed by, so we can assume it's not going to be one untidy habit that has to come to a meeting point.

What I'm thinking and wondering about is: why does it change? If you were once able to see past the sink, why can't you abide it now? Or, if you were once willing to change your habit and put the dish away, why will you refuse now? If two people go down a road where they are playing Tit for Tat all day long, what makes them stop doing that and turn it around? And why does that *ever* work? It also seems to me that when one person deeply resents another for an event or series of events, it might be irretrievable...but maybe not. If it IS retrievable, why is it?

 

I can only speak from my personal experience. I have been married twice. The first time was I could abide, then I couldn't. The second has been the other way around. We started with some major hurdles and worked it out. My first husband did things to hurt me and didn't care. He really did say to me, at the end, "He who doesn't like it, fixes it!" I walked. I had to. I could not fix it on my own. And what he did what not something that I could not put up with.

With current dh, it was different. He did things that hurt himself that reverberated to others. At first I was really angry, resentful, etc. I thought he didn't care about me. I had a light bulb moment where I understood that it had nothing to do with me and he didn't intend to do these things (to hurt others). And the big, big difference was that he recognized what he was doing and wanted to change it.

So, there you go. Simple question I would love to hear others' views on. :)

 

I want to add that broken trust (which I think many relationship issues boil down to) is very difficult to overcome. We are often taught to forgive but not taught its okay to get angry first. Sometimes we really need to let ourselves get really, really angry to get past things. It really is okay to be angry as long as we are careful with what we do with that anger.

[Scarlett]

I haven't read all the responses but here's my two cents (in bold)

 

I want to add that broken trust (which I think many relationship issues boil down to) is very difficult to overcome. We are often taught to forgive but not taught its okay to get angry first. Sometimes we really need to let ourselves get really, really angry to get past things. It really is okay to be angry as long as we are careful with what we do with that anger.

Eph 4:26 be wrathful but don't sin.

 

Anger is normal when we have been betrayed.

 

Broken trust is a real killer to overcome. The depth and breadth of the broken trust is the determining factor.

[Hikin' Mama]

Well, I got kicked all around the playground for saying this in the other thread, so I'm kinda scared to say it in this one...but what stops me from carrying on like a pork chop over most of the annoying stuff ? Which let's face it, is just someone doing things differently to me - not better, not worse, different.

 

Realizing that the only person I can change is me.

 

I can choose to let go of the metaphorical glass, or I can choose to take care of the metaphorical glass, because it's important to me. What I can't do is insist that other value the glass the same way I do.

 

I swear, if anyone jumps on me for being disrespectful of their families by this post, I will scream. I am thinking about ME and MY FAMILY in response to QUILL ONLY>

I don't know what the other thread is, but what you say here sounds pretty reasonable and true to me.