1st grade math driving me crazy

[calihil]

So my daughter is 7 and we are doing 1st grade work. I am using CLE Math 1 with her and we are about 90 lessons in. I am about to rip. my. hair out. She is just not understanding simple addition and subtraction at all. I've tried all kinds of manipulatives, number lines, dice, and she is just not getting it. CLE Math does the flash cards but honestly I haven't been doing them because that plus all the math bookwork, drills, etc can be a bit much. We are up to sums of 10 now and I'm just afraid she's not going to do well if we go much higher. She just doesnt like it, doesn't pay attention, is always looking off into space, whining, complaining, guesses at the answers. I just dont know what else to do!!! Is it the math curriculum?? Yall know it can be a little dry at times, but we are using it because I know so many love it and recommend it. Maybe she needs something a little more visual? I dont know. Any advice? Encouragement? Maybe she just isnt going to be good at math or she has a learning disability? I just dont want her to fall behind and since she's my oldest, I'm not sure what to expect. We work on adding and subtracting every day and have been for months, but she just isnt *getting* it.

[Mergath]

Have you tried using c-rods? My dd is also seven, and she always seems to understand concepts better when I demonstrate them with c-rods than with anything else.

[Guest]

 Maybe she just isnt going to be good at math or she has a learning disability? .

 

Maybe she does have a learning disability. Get her tested.

 

But even if she has a disability, 7 years old is way too early to call it as far as not being "good" at math goes!

 

Take as many deep breaths as you need. Go as painstakingly slow as she needs. Get whatever evaluations you need. But don't give up.

 

CLE is not universally revered, not by a long shot lol (I do use it with one of mine--but it's not the best for everyone!) So you may need to switch tracks.

 

But look, if you put three beans on the table and tell her to make it five beans, can she do that? If you ask her how many years until she turns ten years old, can she figure it out?

[Farrar]

There's no rush. I would stop and slow down. And change it up, at least for awhile. It sounds like she's gotten a block about the program so put it on hold and so some other stuff for a bit.

 

Strongly seconding the Cuisenaire rods. Have you seen Education Unboxed?

 

I would play games. Definitely Going to the Dump (it's in the Right Start Card Games, but you can make a set yourself and there are videos that explain how to play). Also things like Sum Swamp and Knock Out. I'd get Rat-a-Tat-Cat and Sleeping Queens because those are good for just adding and practicing small numbers and they're just fun and inexpensive. Look at the relaxed math thread (it's pinned on the gen ed board) for more ideas - both games and in general.

 

I'd also just talk numbers constantly. Count things all the time and then add things to them. I see twelve rocks in that yard, I see four more in that yard. How many is that? Count up. This errand will take ten minutes - let's see if it really does. Oh, we got there in seven minutes, how many minutes quicker was that? How many papers do you have? How many more dresses do you need to dress all the dolls? How many cars if we all had one? Are there more types of cereal at the store or more types of candy? Are there fewer hats than coats? And so on and so on. Make numbers and basic math seem everyday.

 

I'd read living math books. Things like the Math Start books and others - there are great lists at livingmath.net - check your library - most have a lot of good picture book math books.

 

I'd check out things like Family Math and Peggy Kaye's Games for Math for more ideas for simple everyday math stuff. But in general I'd try to do things to make math fun - is she into art? Music? What can you tie in? And then I'd concurrently work with those C-rods and the Right Start games or other games and do flash cards and drills a little, but mostly just practice with games. And then in a month or two re-evaluate - is she ready to go back to CLE? Do you need to look into a new program? Is she making progress?

[calihil]

Have you tried using c-rods? My dd is also seven, and she always seems to understand concepts better when I demonstrate them with c-rods than with anything else.

 

I have heard good things about them but haven't tried them out yet, no. I might put an order in. Thanks!

 

Maybe she does have a learning disability. Get her tested.

 

But even if she has a disability, 7 years old is way too early to call it as far as not being "good" at math goes!

 

Take as many deep breaths as you need. Go as painstakingly slow as she needs. Get whatever evaluations you need. But don't give up.

 

CLE is not universally revered, not by a long shot lol (I do use it with one of mine--but it's not the best for everyone!) So you may need to switch tracks.

 

But look, if you put three beans on the table and tell her to make it five beans, can she do that? If you ask her how many years until she turns ten years old, can she figure it out?

 

How would I even go about getting her tested? Ask the pediatrician?

 

And yes, she could probably do those examples if I asked her. 

 

I know that 7 is still young to really be worried about this kind of stuff but I dont know how long I need to wait until I try another curriculum, get her tested, etc?

[3 ladybugs]

Please look at Shiller math. It is montessori based and is VERY gentle. My son is in the second half of the second book and we were talking about the number 8 today. That isn't to say it is not challenging. We are doing ALL sorts of things with the number 8 and learning Roman Numerals, skip counting, backwards counting, ordinal numbers, square roots, addition and subtraction; as well as other math things like money, tessalations, geometry, logical thinking, and so on. However because it is so slow (on paper) I think it helps children visualize things better. The whole program is not based on worksheets but on doing (activities, songs) to memorizing, rather then copying to memorizing. You get to the same spot in the end, but you have a lot more fun! 

 

Let me know if you would like more examples. My son was doing Singapore math and HATED it. We switched to this and he LOVES it. 

 

Good luck!

[HomeAgain]

How is she guessing?  At that age, I would push the manipulatives every time until she could visualize in her head.  Guessing would not be an option.  See it, build it, visualize it, write it.  I have an egg carton we use for a ten frame to see the number bonds up to 10 - pennies and dimes would work (or two different color beans) would work to help visualize the numbers in her head for later work.

[lacell]

C-rods work great at our house too. Let her play for a while so she doesn't develop a "I hate math. I'm bad at math" attitude. Right Start is extremely helpful here too but pricey.

[lacell]

Also, Life of Fred books can be fun!

[lacell]

My favorite math apps are the Montessori one with wooden blocks the child manipulates and the subscription "Dreambox" math which can be played on computer or tablet.

[lacell]

Also, check out the Learning Challenges board here. There are parents who have tried many different math curricula there who might be able to help.

[prairiewindmomma]

I have a kid with a math disability. It was very apparent early on.

 

Do you have an apple device? Go find Ronit Bird's materials. http://www.ronitbird.com Exploring numbers through Cuisenaire Rods is very helpful.  

If you don't have an apple device, go through the materials on education unboxed, and interlibrary loan Ronit Bird's books.

 

It's a start.  Work diligently for six weeks with manipulatives and see where that gets you.  I'd put aside CLE while you do the intense manipulatives work.  Be sure to use RB's methodology.

 

If after six weeks you're still struggling, then I'd start digging deeper as to what is going on....attention issues, dysgraphia in the mix, and so on.  Most of us on the Learning Challenges boards have multiple issues going on in one kid.

[UnlikelyHomeschoolingMama]

My daughter got this way in 1st grade using ABEKA.  So in second grade we started out with Math U See Alpha.  I simply had her work that through addition (approximately 20 lessons) and then went back to ABEKA 2.  Her math fact recall is 100 times better.  In fact, she is better at subtraction also because she knows the number bonds!! It has been amazing!!  And she will sometimes still use the blocks for her ABEKA math just to help (or to play).  :)  I found it used on ebay and will also use it for my DS, so it wasn't TOO expensive.  Good luck!! 

[sweetpea3829]

I disagree that 7 is too young to identify a math disability. I had suspicions that my daughter had "something" going on when she was a young as 15 months. Little things that, isolated, meant nothing. But in the big picture, I knew there was a potential issue.

 

She was identified as needing evaluation when she was 3 (by Child Outreach, a preschool screening in our then home state). She was identified as needing receptive speech and further evaluation. In the middle of all of this, we relocated out of state and had to start the process all over.

 

Her full Ed. Psych eval occurred when she was 6. She was identified as dyscalculic with some spatial integration issues.

 

Knowing the nature of her LD from very early in her schooling has helped me specifically target her areas of weakness. She is 10 now, still dyscalculic, but much further along the path of remediation than she would be if I had waited.

 

 

All of that said. Do you have any other reasons to believe your DD has LDs? Are there other areas of concern? A family history?

 

You don't necessarily need to rush out and have her evaluated, unless you have other red flags. My 7 yr son has been riding the same line of, "is this a LD, or is this immaturity/something else" for the last year. With him, I've chosen to try a few other things and see how he does because I strongly suspect there are other factors causing him to struggle.

 

Gotta think of the big picture of who your kiddo is.

[Ellie]

So my daughter is 7 and we are doing 1st grade work. I am using CLE Math 1 with her and we are about 90 lessons in. I am about to rip. my. hair out. She is just not understanding simple addition and subtraction at all. I've tried all kinds of manipulatives, number lines, dice, and she is just not getting it. CLE Math does the flash cards but honestly I haven't been doing them because that plus all the math bookwork, drills, etc can be a bit much. We are up to sums of 10 now and I'm just afraid she's not going to do well if we go much higher. She just doesnt like it, doesn't pay attention, is always looking off into space, whining, complaining, guesses at the answers. I just dont know what else to do!!! Is it the math curriculum?? Yall know it can be a little dry at times, but we are using it because I know so many love it and recommend it. Maybe she needs something a little more visual? I dont know. Any advice? Encouragement? Maybe she just isnt going to be good at math or she has a learning disability? I just dont want her to fall behind and since she's my oldest, I'm not sure what to expect. We work on adding and subtracting every day and have been for months, but she just isnt *getting* it.

 

Don't be too hasty to think in terms of disabilities or that she hates math. And seriously, she's too young to be worried about her falling behind. :-)

 

I prefer Rod and Staff Publishers for arithmetic. There's a very excellent teacher manual with scripted oral lessons (you do the teaching; the seatwork just reinforces what you taught) that take, oh, 15 minutes to teach. It's very gentle, but it's also very comprehensive.

[carriede]

I second the c-rods and education unboxed.

 

You also might look into the Life of Fred books and doing Kahn Academy online.

 

Sounds very frustrating. Hugs and good luck!

[TracyP]

Looking at your siggy, it looks like your dd turned 7 just a couple weeks ago, right? And you are well over half way through the year (LU 110 is optional according to the TM). So first off, you are not in any danger of falling behind. :) 

 

Do you think she isn't getting it, or she isn't memorizing it? If she truly is not getting the concepts of addition and subtraction, then I think you need to stop and work on that. I think at her age that could be a sign of a LD, although personally I'd be willing to wait another year to look into evals. If it is only the memorization that is a problem, then that is very common for her age and not what I'd consider a problem at all.

 

CLE pushes memorization pretty hard. For some of my kids memorization is a breeze, and they thrive with that approach. For my ds that finds memorization challenging, we skipped flashcards and speed drills and are only now (in 2nd grade) working hard on the memorization of facts. I suspect we will work hard on this for years as multiplication/division gets added to the mix. In the meantime, he used manipulatives (C rods - I also highly recommend these) for the vast majority of the problems.

 

You have plenty of time here to slow down. You only have 65 lessons until you hit the 2nd grade books. You could take a break and do something different for awhile (farrar's post has a ton of great options) or you could add some of those ideas while continuing CLE at half pace. No matter what the issue, it sounds like your dd would benefit from adding a little fun to her math.

[fourisenough]

I heartily recommend Kate's Homeschool Math help. She is a boardie here and, I think, has just published a book with Peace Hill Press. More importantly, she offered a free series of math lessons over the last couple of months entitled "Addition Facts that Stick". I would stop with you're doing with your daughter and put her through Kate's lessons. Your description of your daughter's behavior during math lessons could have been about my daughter last fall. I stopped MM (which I love) temporarily to go through Kate's lessons. It was an absolute break-through for her. We're now back on track, zooming through MM 1B and her confidence & enjoyment of math are quite good as a result.

 

Here's a link:

http://kateshomeschoolmath.com/new-to-teaching-homeschool-math/

[Rosie_0801]

My dd wouldn't learn maths at all without CSMP, so you might give that a go, beginning at the grade one level and moving through as many lessons a day as she can handle. But if she's able to do the problems OKBud offered, I'm inclined to think it's not a maths disability, but boringly presented maths. (Not that I've seen CLE, so I don't know if *I* think it's boringly presented, lol.) CSMP is definitely not boringly presented. Perhaps you could combine it with CLE (or just the tests) to make sure she can translate the quirky CSMP format into more standard presentation maths.

 

Definitely add games. Lots and lots of games. Recruit an uncle to play them, if possible. ;)

[BusyMom5]

Do you use manipulatives?  I think they are extremely important in the early years.  I would get MUS blocks and/or C-rods and let her use them to do the math fact practice.   

[OneStepAtATime]

Looking at your siggy, it looks like your dd turned 7 just a couple weeks ago, right? And you are well over half way through the year (LU 110 is optional according to the TM). So first off, you are not in any danger of falling behind. :)

 

Do you think she isn't getting it, or she isn't memorizing it? If she truly is not getting the concepts of addition and subtraction, then I think you need to stop and work on that. I think at her age that could be a sign of a LD, although personally I'd be willing to wait another year to look into evals. If it is only the memorization that is a problem, then that is very common for her age and not what I'd consider a problem at all.

 

CLE pushes memorization pretty hard. For some of my kids memorization is a breeze, and they thrive with that approach. For my ds that finds memorization challenging, we skipped flashcards and speed drills and are only now (in 2nd grade) working hard on the memorization of facts. I suspect we will work hard on this for years as multiplication/division gets added to the mix. In the meantime, he used manipulatives (C rods - I also highly recommend these) for the vast majority of the problems.

 

You have plenty of time here to slow down. You only have 65 lessons until you hit the 2nd grade books. You could take a break and do something different for awhile (farrar's post has a ton of great options) or you could add some of those ideas while continuing CLE at half pace. No matter what the issue, it sounds like your dd would benefit from adding a little fun to her math.

I agree with much of this.  Slow down.  And yes, incorporate manipulatives and possibly switch math programs, at least for now.

 

Also, OP, as others have mentioned, I strongly urge you to confirm that your child has basic subitization skils and has the concepts of addition and subtraction down before you move forward any further.  Does she actually have any clue what addition means?  Does she have a basic number sense?  If she rolls two die and one has a 2 and the other has a 2, can she recognize immediately that she rolled a 4 or does she have to count each individual dot?  In other words, find out where the disconnect is.  Work in small pieces, concentrate on just one thing at a time and see if she is truly understanding what addition and subtraction actually mean.  If not, look into the Ronit Bird materials, read How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa and consider at some point getting an evaluation through a neuropsychologist (but before going that route, try the above).

 

I wanted to mention that I don't see CLE pushing memorization pretty hard since they allow the use of a reference chart during lessons and continue drills on math facts as a separate thing from the lesson all the way through 5th grade.  In other words, they work on those math facts skills separately from the main lessons and don't expect memorization until after 5th grade.  They just work on them.  At DD's school they expected kids to already have all facts memorized by the end of 2nd grade, no reference charts were allowed and they stopped doing math fact drills at the end of 2nd since those were expected to already be memorized.  That was hard on some kids, not an issue for others, but for the ones that it was hard on they fell behind because they didn't have the scaffolding that CLE and other programs like it provide.  CLE works on math facts for years (which you can obviously drop if your child gets it down early) but they aren't actually expecting math facts to be automatic for those years.  They give kids a LOT of time to learn their math facts (years) and allow them to use support materials until the facts are down.  It is also easy to drop that portion of the lesson if a child isn't ready to do math fact drills. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[calihil]

I heartily recommend Kate's Homeschool Math help. She is a boardie here and, I think, has just published a book with Peace Hill Press. More importantly, she offered a free series of math lessons over the last couple of months entitled "Addition Facts that Stick". I would stop with you're doing with your daughter and put her through Kate's lessons. Your description of your daughter's behavior during math lessons could have been about my daughter last fall. I stopped MM (which I love) temporarily to go through Kate's lessons. It was an absolute break-through for her. We're now back on track, zooming through MM 1B and her confidence & enjoyment of math are quite good as a result.

 

Here's a link:

http://kateshomeschoolmath.com/new-to-teaching-homeschool-math/

 

Thank you so much!!! I think that part of my problem is I just dont know how to TEACH math. Ive never been good at it, it intimidates me, and I honestly dont want to read a book about it, lol. It overwhelms me. But I can do videos like that, they look pretty simple. Im going to try the ten frame thing with her tomorrow, I had never heard of it! Is it a common core concept? (Not that I care about that) And I think I need to look into another curriculum. CLE might just be a little too traditional for both of us, at least right now.

 

Any other "teaching math" videos anyone can recommend? Im going to try Khan Academy, too.... 

[Rosie_0801]

Thank you so much!!! I think that part of my problem is I just dont know how to TEACH math. Ive never been good at it, it intimidates me, and I honestly dont want to read a book about it, lol. 

 

CSMP is scripted, if that helps.

[HomeAgain]

Thank you so much!!! I think that part of my problem is I just dont know how to TEACH math. Ive never been good at it, it intimidates me, and I honestly dont want to read a book about it, lol. It overwhelms me. But I can do videos like that, they look pretty simple. Im going to try the ten frame thing with her tomorrow, I had never heard of it! Is it a common core concept? (Not that I care about that) And I think I need to look into another curriculum. CLE might just be a little too traditional for both of us, at least right now.

 

Any other "teaching math" videos anyone can recommend? Im going to try Khan Academy, too.... 

 

I don't think a 10 frame is exactly common core..We see the same visualization techniques used with Right Start's abacus (beads in groups of 5 of different colors), Montessori addition strips, and even Roman numerals (counting 1, 2, 3, 1-before-5, 5, 5-and-1, 5-and-2, 5-and-3, 1-before-10, 10). I think common core adopted its use just like they did other things (like teaching multiplication in the manner of Math U See).

[fourisenough]

Thank you so much!!! I think that part of my problem is I just dont know how to TEACH math. Ive never been good at it, it intimidates me, and I honestly dont want to read a book about it, lol. It overwhelms me. But I can do videos like that, they look pretty simple. Im going to try the ten frame thing with her tomorrow, I had never heard of it! Is it a common core concept? (Not that I care about that) And I think I need to look into another curriculum. CLE might just be a little too traditional for both of us, at least right now.

 

Any other "teaching math" videos anyone can recommend? Im going to try Khan Academy, too....

I'm not sure if the ten-frame is a CC 'thing' but WOW! did it help the idea of addition click for my DD. I especially love that I didn't have to buy anything to do those lessons. Kate released them one per week over several weeks so I was forced to work on each concept for about 7-days for about six weeks and by the end, DD was quick and accurate with her facts.

 

The only other videos I can recommend are those by Rosie at Education Unboxed. Also free and very good, they require use of C-rods (so if you don't already own them you would have a purchase and a bit of a learning curve).

[Sarah0000]

You could also let her play math video games independently and just observe her. I've noticed that my son will speed through problems on Prodigy Math (its free) that he'll apparently struggle with during our lessons. Just so you can hopefully see what she can and can't do in a low stress way. Prodigy might be a little above her level though. Maybe try Splash Math. You can get a one month free trial. Its not as fun but it might work just to see what she'll do.

[calihil]

CSMP is scripted, if that helps.

 

What is CSMP? Comprehensive School Maths Program? I tried to google a bit, but every link I found was not working anymore. :/

[Tsuga]

How is she guessing?  At that age, I would push the manipulatives every time until she could visualize in her head.  Guessing would not be an option.  See it, build it, visualize it, write it.  I have an egg carton we use for a ten frame to see the number bonds up to 10 - pennies and dimes would work (or two different color beans) would work to help visualize the numbers in her head for later work.

 

I agree. At that age, if the child is not driving the math learning, then they should be doing 100% of it with visualizations or manipulatives. It must be connected to an actual measurement.

 

Blocks, drawing one-dots and ten-sticks, abacus, counting beads, lego, anything. There should be no guessing at all. They must write it out.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if the ten-frame is a CC 'thing' but WOW! did it help the idea of addition click for my DD.

 

It's related to the abacus style of learning. It is not a CC thing but CC learning outcomes require people to use stronger methods than memorizing math facts so it has been used in textbooks.

 

ETA: movement and spatial orientation and music are key to helping children understand the relationship between numbers and the world. I recommend that in addition to a strong program, if you and your daughter aren't "mathy" that you consider adding in some movement and music to your curriculum. It won't hurt--in the worst case scenario, even if it doesn't map to math, it will help develop spatial and temporal instincts.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tsuga

[kalusignan]

I heartily recommend Kate's Homeschool Math help. She is a boardie here and, I think, has just published a book with Peace Hill Press. More importantly, she offered a free series of math lessons over the last couple of months entitled "Addition Facts that Stick". I would stop with you're doing with your daughter and put her through Kate's lessons. Your description of your daughter's behavior during math lessons could have been about my daughter last fall. I stopped MM (which I love) temporarily to go through Kate's lessons. It was an absolute break-through for her. We're now back on track, zooming through MM 1B and her confidence & enjoyment of math are quite good as a result.

 

Here's a link:

http://kateshomeschoolmath.com/new-to-teaching-homeschool-math/

 

I agree!

 

My dd also struggled with math in K and 1st. Turns out she just doesn't learn math well in a traditional, worksheety way. We are now using RightStart with a lot of success. 

 

I recommend, like above, trying out 'Addition Facts that Stick' or 'Professor Pig's Magic Math' (free). Both of those mini-curricula will let you know if something like a RightStart approach will work better for her without investing a lot up front.

 

Also, agree with many others about using manipulatives. My dd hated and didn't 'get' MUS blocks at all but does really well with the abacus and RS manipulatives and lots of games!

[Rosie_0801]

What is CSMP? Comprehensive School Maths Program? I tried to google a bit, but every link I found was not working anymore. :/

 

They are annoying when they do that. This link is working, or was when I tried it just now. :p

 

http://stern.buffalostate.edu/CSMPProgram/Primary%20Disk/Start.html

[calihil]

Well, I've been using lots of manipulatives, but mostly dice and counting, taking away, putting groups together, etc. But she'd still 
"guess" and be wrong. I couldnt tell if she was just being obstinate or lazy or really didnt know.

 

I did try the ten frame today and she did SO well with it! I think it really helped her to visualize the groups of numbers being added and subtracting. Thanks so much for suggesting that!!! 

[Julie of KY]

Take away the paper math and do it orally and with manipulatives. It can be something like cuisenaire rods or just any physical items for counting and adding. Until the math is solid with real objects, don't change to the abstract form of this squiggly line represents three, etc.

Also, consider testing for learning disabilities as others have suggested.

[arliemaria]

They are annoying when they do that. This link is working, or was when I tried it just now. :p

 

http://stern.buffalostate.edu/CSMPProgram/Primary%20Disk/Start.html

 

Alright Rosie, I bit the bullet.  I printed the First Grade CSMP worksheets.  Could you tell me more about it?  I think the minicomputers are what is throwing me off.  I know I need to read more on the site.  Robby finished Singapore 1A and I want him to do something else before we dive into 1B.  I guess I am nervous about doing multiplication, etc. "early" compared to my 1990s public school elementary education.  

[TriciaT]

Just so you know, this was definitely my oldest too! She could not memorize the facts. She knew how to get them, but she would get so tired of counting it out or using manipulatives that she would just take a guess. She needed a break from the pressure of a worksheet full of problems or anything that was demanding an answer quickly.

A year later she had everything down. I didn't use a magic curriculum or anything, just gave her time and worked with her in less pressured ways (games, jumping on a giant side walk chalk number line, c rods, etc.) Then in second grade she was ready for traditional curriculum again.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[calihil]

Ok so just wanted to update, she's doing much better! Switched to MM1 and we've really focused on adding and subtraction and she gets it, yay! She's not rock solid, but is much better and we're both much happier with MM. I think a mastery approach will work best for both of us instead of spiral, I'm glad I took time to figure that out.