Doug Wilson...again *Trigger Warning* See ETA

[LucyStoner]

But by all means, lets leave the child there until we can prove beyond a doubt that terrible damage has been done. Prevent abuse?? That might infringe on this convicted pedophiles rights!!

Don't get me started on the myriad of ways parental rights trump child safety in this country. Abusers get too many chances and families too little support.

 

I think the state should ideally appoint a guardian ad litum to see to the child's best interests. Clearly his parents can not.

[Mimm]

I have sent my children out of the room in moments when I was feeling irrationally angry with them because I knew I'd say things I would regret. 

If he is stimulated by his infant (my stomach literally feels in knots at that thought) and he loved the child, surely he would see that the best thing for the child would be for him (the father) to exit the picture??  My guess is that that won't happen.  Vile.

 

I'm guessing someone capable of hurting a child in this way isn't really capable of thinking in terms of what is best for the child and what would be the best role for him to play in his child's life...

 

I've heard of people who found themselves attracted to children but who resisted acting on their feelings, not wanting to hurt children. I can't really wrap my brain around how you could feel that but at least I can give someone credit for recognizing that acting on those desires would be damaging and that they need to not do so. I've heard of them avoiding being around children, avoiding interacting with children as much as possible, telling someone about their attraction so that someone else knows and can support them. 

 

Sitler is not such a person. He is someone who has left a trail of victims in his wake and obviously thinks nothing victimizing his own child.

[TranquilMind]

This child is surrounded by adults who apparently won't lift a finger to see to it that he stays safe. :(

What the hell is wrong with the woman?  Why would she reproduce with a serial molester?   Not buying that it was because they were religious.  Who is this stupid?

 

I have no idea who Doug Wilson is, nor ever heard of his "church", but anyone that would condone such a thing and simultaneously claims Christianity is a "Christian" in the same way that Hitler was a "Christian". 

 

Lots of stupid and awful decisions in this story, regardless of any religious setting or lack thereof. 

[LucyStoner]

What the hell is wrong with the woman? Why would she reproduce with a serial molester? Not buying that it was because they were religious. Who is this stupid?

 

I have no idea who Doug Wilson is, nor ever heard of his "church", but anyone that would condone such a thing and simultaneously claims Christianity is a "Christian" in the same way that Hitler was a "Christian".

 

Lots of stupid and awful decisions in this story, regardless of any religious setting or lack thereof.

In her sect the decision was largely her parents, particularly her father's decision. Her parents were largely influenced by Doug Wilson. Doug Wilson thought marriage was a viable cure for Sitkin's "problem". What is so insidious about their brand of patriarchy is that is robs a mother of her natural right and obligation to protect her children. Her husband, a convicted level three sex offender with a history of child victims is her authority.

 

Say what you will about Doug Wilson, he's a Christian minister with a lot of sway in certain circles and homeschooling materials. He doesn't cease to be a Christian minister just because he's a piece of work. He's also a "paleo confederate" (his words, not mine) and blamed Doug Phillips' victim after that whole scandal broke.

[Spy Car]

Douglas Wilson is (unfortunately) mentioned as an authority about 10 times in the latest edition of TWTM. 

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

Douglas Wilson is (unfortunately) mentioned as an authority about 10 times in the latest edition of TWTM. 

 

Bill

 

*jawdrop* Didn't know.

[Mimm]

I didn't know that either. I wonder if he'll make the next edition. It could be that SWB simply hadn't looked into him in depth at the time. Doug Wilson is actually who introduced me to classical education. I read a book he wrote on it back in the day and I liked enough of what he said. Obviously the more I know, the more my opinions have changed. I haven't read the book in at least 12 years... I can't say whether I would agree with much of what he said in it now. But it does kind of make me feel :ohmy: that he had any affect at all on my children's education, even though in the end, it wasn't a negative affect. I've never actually used any of the materials he's associated with.

[zoobie]

Douglas Wilson is (unfortunately) mentioned as an authority about 10 times in the latest edition of TWTM.

 

Bill

An authority on what? Clearly I skimmed several sections. Scared to go look.

[TranquilMind]

This is what I feared would happen. Marrying and producing biological children was an easy manner for Sitler to create his own victims, and given the sheer number of victims he has in his wake, this was virtually assured to be the case from the start. Sigh....I have to wonder what lovely skeletons the judge has in his own closet that would influence him to arrive at such a profoundly insane decision. As for Wilson, he's positively evil...this guy is into sexual violence though. He has preached numerous sermons in which men are exhorted to rape their wives and indicating that women really secretly desire this. She is supposed to know, according to his sick and twisted mind, that she has been conquered. So no surprise that Wilson has no moral qualms with a pervert using a child to satisfy his desires. Mr. pro slavery really believes that women and children should be slaves to their "masters" (husbands and fathers) as well.

 

Sitler should have been remanded back to custody to rot the rest of his life in prison, Katie should be sentenced to prison as well, the child should be placed up for adoption through foster care since the grandparents are unfit (Wilson does the arranged marriage thing so daddy Travis was in on this from the beginning and is therefore a slime bag), and though Wilson can't be charged with a crime, he should be so beaten down by the local community and national media that he slinks into the shadows never to be heard from again and were Harry Potter-esque punishments available, his soul sucked out by dementors.

Who would marry this Sitler person?  I can't get past this. 

[TranquilMind]

In her sect the decision was largely her parents, particularly her father's decision. Her parents were largely influenced by Doug Wilson. Doug Wilson thought marriage was a viable cure for Sitkin's "problem". What is so insidious about their brand of patriarchy is that is robs a mother of her natural right and obligation to protect her children. Her husband, a convicted level three sex offender with a history of child victims is her authority.

 

Say what you will about Doug Wilson, he's a Christian minister with a lot of sway in certain circles and homeschooling materials. He doesn't cease to be a Christian minister just because he's a piece of work. He's also a "paleo confederate" (his words, not mine) and blamed Doug Phillips' victim after that whole scandal broke.

Like I said, stupid abounds here.  Wilson, the parents, the wife...all idiots, apparently.   I'm glad I don't know more about this situation and I choose not to delve into it.  It will just piss me off. 

[Mimm]

I was very curious so I had to look up all the times he's mentioned.

 

He is quoted about Latin pronunciation and about classical education stages. A couple times a Dorothy Sayers quote that he used in his book was used. One footnote explained that they used to recommend his Latin Grammar book but now she recommends Memoria Press. I'm not sure what all he had a hand in writing as far as curriculum but I'm sure some of his stuff is probably recommended.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Interesting this has come up, because I'm working on the fourth edition of TWTM now, and part of the (fairly major) revision has been removing the six (or so) Doug Wilson citations. 

 

Those citations are holdovers from the very first edition, when Doug Wilson was almost the only person who had written about classical education. They are quotes from his reprint of Dorothy Sayers' 1920s speech about the patterns of classical education, and from a couple of his early works on classical education in which he very clearly describes the place of language studies and how it changes from grammar to logic to education. Also a quote about how to develop a love of books, and one about how classical education isn't something that can be delivered in a box. (And the Latin pronunciation one.)

 

Back when we first wrote the book, it would have been unthinkable not to cite him, since he was the classical education guy, and his writings on classical education were actually very helpful. I think the first edition also recommended some of the Logos School curricula--as I remember, it was the only Latin for young children out there. We were able to replace those with Memoria Press editions in the second edition.

 

Although Doug Wilson  was always patriarchal, he wasn't nearly as outrageous as he then became. He had, I think, already published his book about slavery, but I wasn't aware of that book's existence until just a couple of years ago. I wish I had been more alert to the weirdness developing out there much earlier on. I wish I'd removed those citations before now. All I can do is remove them now.

 

SWB

[*Lulu*]

I am so glad to hear that, Susan! Truthfully the change in available materials is one of the most exciting things of the past decade in the homeschool world.

[mommaduck]

Susan, this is my "liking" your post :)

[Heatherwith4]

Thank you for the explanation, Susan.

[Spy Car]

Re-reading my post I realize I failed to quote an earlier post by Tranquil Mind (who said she had never heard of Douglas Wilson) which prompted my response. I was hoping to show that Douglas Wilson is a well-known (infamous is maybe the better term) figure in the so-called classical Christian education movement. I was not trying to take a swipe at SWB. My apologies if my failure to quote de-contextualized my comments.

 

Inclusion in TWTM does—due to the nature of SWB's earned position of respect and the prestige of her publishing house—confer a sort of legitimacy on authors, curriculum providers, and "leaders" in the homeschooling world. Wilson is not the only troubling personality or institution who has benefited from the unwarranted legitimization that inclusion in TWTM brings. It is cringe-worthy to see materials from such fonts of hatred and bigorty as A Beka (as with BJU in the past), or to see anti-science materials like Apologia listed as a recommended resource.

 

I hope these troubling recommendations are excised along with the citations referring to Douglas Wilson.

 

Bill

[FO4UR]

 

Back when we first wrote the book, it would have been unthinkable not to cite him, since he was the classical education guy

 

And, we thank you for sticking your neck out there to be a balanced voice amidst some very weird weirdness. The last decade, really, has brought the whackadoodles out of the woodwork in the homeschooling world.  Simply writing TWTM puts you and your family in a spotlight that, I'm guessing, is not always wanted.  Thanks for doing it anyway.

[Guest]

I admit I've never heard of either of these guys outside this board. But how there hasn't been jail time and possibly castration involved boggles my mind. It's a deep and obvious injustice.

[PrincessMommy]

I didn't know that either. I wonder if he'll make the next edition. It could be that SWB simply hadn't looked into him in depth at the time. Doug Wilson is actually who introduced me to classical education. I read a book he wrote on it back in the day and I liked enough of what he said. Obviously the more I know, the more my opinions have changed. I haven't read the book in at least 12 years... I can't say whether I would agree with much of what he said in it now. But it does kind of make me feel :ohmy: that he had any affect at all on my children's education, even though in the end, it wasn't a negative affect. I've never actually used any of the materials he's associated with.

 

You're not alone.   I feel the same way about Mary Pride.    

[Rosyl]

After having read about ATI and the patriarchal movement, I am appalled at how many of the vendors at the conventions are affiliated with ATI and patriarchy.  I am frustrated that I didn't figure it out sooner.

[mommaduck]

After having read about ATI and the patriarchal movement, I am appalled at how many of the vendors at the conventions are affiliated with ATI and patriarchy.  I am frustrated that I didn't figure it out sooner.

 

Which is why even many Christians would love to see more secular conventions. It's not that they can't be vendors, but they tend to come with certain speakers and many of those are promoting a certain belief system that we can't or can no longer get behind. Then you have speakers being disparaging of other speakers that they don't agree with, boycotting because it's not just their playground anymore, etc. Yeah...if you can't be open to the diversity of the homeschooling community, then step back, because some of us want to hear the OTHER speakers (like SWB ;) )

[mommaduck]

You're not alone.   I feel the same way about Mary Pride.    

 

I have read in recent years that Mary Pride never expected her book/s to be taken the way they were nor have the impact they did. I will admit that it was one of the books that continued me down a not so great path to the point that I wish I hadn't read it (young, fundamentalist, trying to be a perfect mom, and it validated the fundyism that was being pushed at me from the Gothardites).

[Orthodox6]

You're not alone.   I feel the same way about Mary Pride.    

 

PrincessMommy, you're in trouble now.  You have roused my judgmental streak concerning said author.  ;) 

[Orthodox6]

Which is why even many Christians would love to see more secular conventions. It's not that they can't be vendors, but they tend to come with certain speakers and many of those are promoting a certain belief system that we can't or can no longer get behind. Then you have speakers being disparaging of other speakers that they don't agree with, boycotting because it's not just their playground anymore, etc. Yeah...if you can't be open to the diversity of the homeschooling community, then step back, because some of us want to hear the OTHER speakers (like SWB ;) )

 

Good news where I live is that the Catholics now have a regular homeschooling convention.  Unfortunately, it has occurred twice now on dates when I could not attend their vendors' displays. These innocent vendors are barred from working through the large Protestant annual fairs. 

[maize]

What is wrong with Mary Pride's books? I vaguely remember her name from my early days of researching homeschooling methods but don't know if I read anything of hers or not. What I remember is that I got her and another Mary mixed up.

[mommaduck]

What is wrong with Mary Pride's books? I vaguely remember her name from my early days of researching homeschooling methods but don't know if I read anything of hers or not. What I remember is that I got her and another Mary mixed up.

 

Mary Pride was considered a leader in the Quiverfull and homeschooling movement.

[maize]

Mary Pride was considered a leader in the Quiverfull and homeschooling movement.

Ah OK, the person I got her mixed up with was Mary Hood, not the same thing at all. http://www.amazon.com/Relaxed-Homeschool-Workshop-Tapes-Set/dp/0970759746

[PrincessMommy]

What is wrong with Mary Pride's books? I vaguely remember her name from my early days of researching homeschooling methods but don't know if I read anything of hers or not. What I remember is that I got her and another Mary mixed up.

 

I wasn't speaking about her Big Book of Homeschooling, but her earlier (first?) book.. "The Way Home".    For many this was an introduction into homeschooling back when there wasn't very much information out there.   She did make good points (SAHMs aren't bad, embracing & enjoying motherhood), but she was also anti-birth control and her overall tone is much too black and white.  And as mammaduck says, it lead a lot of people in to the extreme fundamentalist quiver full, ATI camps.    Which is funny because one hardly ever heard about Mr. Pride.    And then she went down the road of tearing down other homeschoolers and their businesses who didn't fit with her world view (Seelhoff sued her and I think she won).  

 

 

[LucyStoner]

Good news where I live is that the Catholics now have a regular homeschooling convention. Unfortunately, it has occurred twice now on dates when I could not attend their vendors' displays. These innocent vendors are barred from working through the large Protestant annual fairs.

I looked at a small Catholic convention here and the speakers were very much the Catholic versions of the protestant patriarchy movement. It was nothing like the Catholic Church I knew and loved as a child and young adult. Some of it was even attacking Rome.

[Orthodox6]

I looked at a small Catholic convention here and the speakers were very much the Catholic versions of the protestant patriarchy movement. It was nothing like the Catholic Church I knew and loved as a child and young adult. Some of it was even attacking Rome.

 

 

Most of the vendors listed for the fairs I mentioned were "mainstream" Catholic. 

[mommaduck]

I looked at a small Catholic convention here and the speakers were very much the Catholic versions of the protestant patriarchy movement. It was nothing like the Catholic Church I knew and loved as a child and young adult. Some of it was even attacking Rome.

 

I've met one like that and know a few Orthodox like that (none here on the board)...all converts and I swear they brought their baggage with them. I admit that I have baggage too and I had to make a very conscious effort to leave it at the door upon conversion. That which I could not, I at least didn't vocalise, watched others in the church, and then confronted my demons.

[Orthodox6]

What is wrong with Mary Pride's books? I vaguely remember her name from my early days of researching homeschooling methods but don't know if I read anything of hers or not. What I remember is that I got her and another Mary mixed up.

 

I never met the woman, and never heard her speak either in public or on audio recording.  I had only her homeschooling books and her homeschooling magazine from which to form an opinion.  Based solely on how she came across in print, I soon felt that her surname was apt.  I know how harsh that sounds. 

[JenniferB]

Douglas Wilson is (unfortunately) mentioned as an authority about 10 times in the latest edition of TWTM. 

 

Bill

The same one?  I thought there were 2.

 

nm

[Guest]

If you want to follow this story, check out Wartburg Watch. (Google it.). :-/

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Any interest in a spin-off thread? I think  most of us who've been homeschooling for more than a few years found initial help and inspiration from people that we'd now prefer to distance ourselves from--but I also think that's a common human experience, whether you're homeschooling or not. Makes me think of a few other questions. Is there anything we can still learn from our former mentors? Under what conditions is it necessary to entirely sever ourselves from any advice offered by them? (I might, for example, quibble with Bill's equating of A Beka grammar books with the entire Doug Wilson complex, but I don't want to derail this thread too much more than I already have.) How embarrassed should we be, fifteen years after the fact? And so forth.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

SWB

[Guest]

I wasn't speaking about her Big Book of Homeschooling, but her earlier (first?) book.. "The Way Home". For many this was an introduction into homeschooling back when there wasn't very much information out there. She did make good points (SAHMs aren't bad, embracing & enjoying motherhood), but she was also anti-birth control and her overall tone is much too black and white. And as mammaduck says, it lead a lot of people in to the extreme fundamentalist quiver full, ATI camps. Which is funny because one hardly ever heard about Mr. Pride. And then she went down the road of tearing down other homeschoolers and their businesses who didn't fit with her world view (Seelhoff sued her and I think she won).

Funnily enough, Mary Pride's Big Book of Homeschooling was the catalyst that switched my thinking from "homeschooling? I could never do that!" to, "homeschooling! That is the perfect solution!" :D When I got that book out of the public library, I thought it was because I wanted to find some good early learning materials to work with my bright little daughter. It was an appointment with fate. :D

 

ETA: fix tags and typos. It's early yet!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Ooh, Quill did an awesome first post! Take the discussion here...

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/562990-so-the-epic-fail-when-someone-you-looked-up-to-is-now-an-embarrassment/

 

and then this thread can stay on its own (disturbing) topic.

[Mimm]

https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/an-open-letter-from-christ-church-on-steven-sitler.html

 

Statement about the whole situation from DW.

 

ETA: People are just using this situation to attack poor Doug, and HE isn't responsible for them getting married in the first place, that was their choice. Oh and you people totally misunderstand that letter he wrote to the judge. Oh and we're all sinners so there.

[Miss Mousie]

https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/an-open-letter-from-christ-church-on-steven-sitler.html

 

Statement about the whole situation from DW.

 

ETA: People are just using this situation to attack poor Doug, and HE isn't responsible for them getting married in the first place, that was their choice. Oh and you people totally misunderstand that letter he wrote to the judge. Oh and we're all sinners so there.

 

Thanks for editing to add the summary, Mimm.  As much as I am often tempted to follow links, I don't even want them (whoever is Snake of the Day) to get the publicity/ego-stroke and possibly ad revenue.  So I rely on others to do my clicking for me, and report back.  :)

[TerriMI]

Interesting this has come up, because I'm working on the fourth edition of TWTM now, and part of the (fairly major) revision has been removing the six (or so) Doug Wilson citations. 

 

Those citations are holdovers from the very first edition, when Doug Wilson was almost the only person who had written about classical education. They are quotes from his reprint of Dorothy Sayers' 1920s speech about the patterns of classical education, and from a couple of his early works on classical education in which he very clearly describes the place of language studies and how it changes from grammar to logic to education. Also a quote about how to develop a love of books, and one about how classical education isn't something that can be delivered in a box. (And the Latin pronunciation one.)

 

Back when we first wrote the book, it would have been unthinkable not to cite him, since he was the classical education guy, and his writings on classical education were actually very helpful. I think the first edition also recommended some of the Logos School curricula--as I remember, it was the only Latin for young children out there. We were able to replace those with Memoria Press editions in the second edition.

 

Although Doug Wilson  was always patriarchal, he wasn't nearly as outrageous as he then became. He had, I think, already published his book about slavery, but I wasn't aware of that book's existence until just a couple of years ago. I wish I had been more alert to the weirdness developing out there much earlier on. I wish I'd removed those citations before now. All I can do is remove them now.

 

SWB

 

 

I understand the need for removing citations.  However, years ago his booklet on Classical Education inspired me in that it made clear to me what it would take to actually school in a very classical way.   I would still, myself, recommend his book to anyone interested in schooling that way.  To me, this is a "meat" book.  I also recommend the Omnibus with caveats.  Any of his other books or ideas may be considered "bones" that I don't need.  All things are my teacher. ( I Corinthians 3: 21)

 

Perhaps there is a book just as good as his booklet on Classical Education.  Does anyone know of one?  I would love to read it and perhaps recommend it.

[Mimm]

Basically what I expected. Justifications, denials, not a hint of "I made a mistake. I'm changing how I think about this issue."

[Word Nerd]

At the risk of sounding like I support Wilson, and I don't, I will say I don't think that was a fair summary of the letter.

[Pawz4me]

Totally off topic and admittedly a bit catty, but -- Whoever wrote that (DW?) could really benefit from a good writing course.

[Mimm]

At the risk of sounding like I support Wilson, and I don't, I will say I don't think that was a fair summary of the letter.

 

It certainly wasn't intended to be a complete summary of the letter (to which I provided a link, so it's not hard to see what all he wrote), but it is the highlights of the parts that bothered me. And there is nothing in the letter that suggests that he thinks he was wrong in any of his actions in the past.

[Seasider]

While this remains a tragic story, it was good to see this item come up in my twitter feed:

 

http://m.dnews.com/cps-opening-investigation-into-sitler-family/article_360e7bd2-571b-11e5-a676-e314137be5dd.html?mode=jqm

[TechWife]

While this remains a tragic story, it was good to see this item come up in my twitter feed:

 

http://m.dnews.com/cps-opening-investigation-into-sitler-family/article_360e7bd2-571b-11e5-a676-e314137be5dd.html?mode=jqm

 

Yes, this is good news. Sad for the child, but good, too. 

 

Hopefully this means someone is actually able to look out for the best interests of the child. I also hope that the child gets a guardian ad litem.  

[Guest]

Does anyone else think that the "line of sight" thing is just total crap?? Even if the parent wanted that job (of having eyes on father and baby at all times) it would be nearly impossible. She never goes to the bathroom or looks down at the book in her lap?? And that is assuming she believes he is a danger and must be watched!! Why would the court ever consider that as a valid protection against a convicted pedophile?? Insane.

[PrincessMommy]

I thought those who are following this mess might appreciate these recent blog posts from Rod Dreher:

 

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/scandal-in-moscow/

 

I found this after following a link that was in response to a blog post Wilson made about Christian girls being prettier than non-Christian girls... yuck.  What a creepster.   Anyway, it eventually led to the above article from Dreher dated Sept 30th.  He states at the end of the article that Wilson has contacted him: Here's the blog entry about the response he got:

 

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/douglas-wilson-steven-sitler-pride/

 

[Guest]

I've been following this story on multiple websites; he is the progenitor of the cult I brushed up against years ago.  

 

wartburgwatch

spirituralsoundingboard

patheos/warrenthrockmorton

kbotkin

 

and 

 

dougwils

baylyblog

 

Last 18 months in patriarchy:  

Doug Phillips

Bill Gothard

Mark Driscoll

Doug Wilson

 

 

[gardenmom5]

Home educators could show their repulsion by organizing a boycott of Canon Press materials, Logos Press (Logos school materials), and Veritas Press (who somehow thought it would be a good idea to hire a pro-slavery advocate to review the slave narratives in their "history" program).

 

Hit them where it hurts.

 

Bill

Which shows how Christian they aren't when it becomes about money.

 

I do think they care about money and less about their 'convictions '. I also think these abusers claim to be Christian because they have access to some gullible people.

I'm Christian but also use the brain God gave me.