Anyone NOT a "relaxed" homeschooler?

[8filltheheart]

I read the link posted by Ms. Ivy and my reaction was very different than the ones described here. This is where we as parents and teachers need to find what inspires us to improve our teaching methodologies. The Hicks' quotes brush the surface of methodology I can personally embrace, but the article itself does not inspire me to be a better teacher.

 

Kern writes, "Rigor is sustained focused attention, not, ever, busy work." The quote, by itself, is definitely not objectionable. It is at its root admirable. But, what moves teaching beyond busy work? What is sustained, focused attention? Close reading is Hick's suggestion in the earlier quote, but what is close reading? How do we move students beyond superficial questions to deeper levels of contemplation? Kern touches on different types of questions, but how does the teacher move from the simple, generic level questions posed? Is it really enough to ask how the questions in physics differ from the questions in history? I personally don't find the expounding of the main focus of the article helpful as a teacher bc it doesn't provide me the framework I need to help my students accomplish even that simplest premise......sustained focus.

 

Rest, sustained attention, rigor, classical, close reading......whatever terms you want to use.....are only helpful insofar as the provide you the teacher with the tools you need to actually teach. What is "sustained focused attention"? How does it help the student? How do we even get the student where they have focused attention, let alone sustain it? How do we get students to achieve close reading and if we can get them to that point, what do we want them to do with it? Why is it even a goal?

 

For me when I read that article, I am left feeling like the cart before the horse. It is because I as a teacher know how to teach my children what close reading is and bc I have learned the tools for helping my children move from focused attention on their reading to higher levels of processing that information that I am able to be confident in my children's educational outcomes. It is because I can provide them the tools for not only learning, but thinking critically, that in our homeschool we are able to find truth and through truth we perceive beauty. But those skills did not come from confidence in my ability to teach. The confidence in my ability to teach came from learning and knowing how to teach.

 

That is a long way of sharing that teaching from a state of rest for me comes from knowing how and what I want to teach. I didn't learn it from reading books that promote teaching from a state of rest, but from reading books like "How to Read a Book." I know the goals I want from close reading because I want my children to move from simple elementary knowledge to analytical reading and to move beyond knowledge and understanding to those of analysis, synthesis, and evaluating/creating. I have studied those teaching methodologies and in turn know how to encourage my children to learn and pursue them. I guide them there implementing the methods of Jesuit teaching masters. It isn't the absence of anxiety or even the focus on what the lesson is that I am currently teaching that gives me comfidence as a teacher. It is knowing what and why I want to teach it in the first place. I see the goal I am pursuing and I provide my children with the framework to follow that path.

 

Having that inner peace is why I know that rigor as defined most ps methodologies is not my definition of being educated. It is why I do not worry about what is taking place in the ps classroom and can confidently focus on the child before me. My educational goals are providing the individual child before me with the tools to fulfill the purpose for which they were created which is far more about interior mental freedom than about a list of subjects. It is through that mental freedom that truth and beauty are able to find primacy.

 

But.....that is simply the path I have found that inspires me to be the parent and teacher that I am. I need more depth and explicit methods to draw upon in order to be a better teacher. We all need to find our own source of inspiration. Maybe simple inspirational blogs are yours. I think 1000s of parents find SWB to be theirs. :)

[FO4UR]

I could have been clearer.  I didn't mean to ascribe the magical thinking comment directly to you.  

 

I haven't personally encountered what I thought you were describing as being frustrating, which I took to be a one size fits all Ivy League push rather than trying to find the best academic fit for the individual student.

 

What I have encountered (often, but not specifically from your post) is the homeschooling is always better, even when little gets done school of thought.

 

 

I understand.

 

Sometimes HSing is better, even when little gets done, b/c the family is working with special needs not apparent to outsiders.  Even less or nothing would be getting done in PS, and a little is better than none.

 

My example above about taking a whole year "getting little done" with my dyslexic shows what I mean.  I can think of many other scenarios where this principle applies, especially for kids who have been in PS and need to simultaneously adjust to a new diagnosis and deschool (recover from traumatizing school experiences).

 

 

What I see quite often is a push to fit into a curric like Abeka or BJU or LifePacs or SOS.  When a child does not succeed in that lock-step program, the mother assesses that she failed at HSing, without ever trying anything outside of that box.  In these cases, the rigor kills learning. 

[enchantedhome]

8, I think the Circe article was broad, for sure. It was not ladened with specifics. But if a parent, having been inspired by the goals Kern and Hicks suggest, want more of what you outline:

 

"Rest, sustained attention, rigor, classical, close reading......whatever terms you want to use.....are only helpful insofar as the provide you the teacher with the tools you need to actually teach. What is "sustained focused attention"? How does it help the student? How do we even get the student where they have focused attention, let alone sustain it? How do we get students to achieve close reading and if we can get them to that point, what do we want them to do with it? Why is it even a goal?"

 

Where do you suggest they go? Where does one find the specific tools useful for teaching in this classical way? Could you make some suggestions? I am inspired by your posts, here and in past threads, and I agree that specifics are helpful.

[Ms.Ivy]

 I personally don't find the expounding of the main focus of the article helpful as a teacher bc it doesn't provide me the framework I need to help my students accomplish even that simplest premise......sustained focus.

 

Rest, sustained attention, rigor, classical, close reading......whatever terms you want to use.....are only helpful insofar as the provide you the teacher with the tools you need to actually teach. What is "sustained focused attention"? How does it help the student? How do we even get the student where they have focused attention, let alone sustain it? How do we get students to achieve close reading and if we can get them to that point, what do we want them to do with it? Why is it even a goal?

 

I think you're right, but I find that article inspirational for me in the sense that it's a focusing tool.  It helps me know which practical advice from CM or SWB or Jenny Rallens or Cindy Rollins I should follow.  It gives me a guide to know why I follow CM advice about how to develop the habit of attention, and reject her advice about other things.  There's just too many "methods" out there, so I need inspiration to know which parts to take and which to leave, and the reasons why I should.  

[Critterfixer]

At the risk of wading way out beyond my depth, I  figure that the best way to  find focus and attention for about anything was to first find the subject appealing in some way, and then to practice doing it until the interest could be sustained.

 

[enchantedhome]

I think you're right, but I find that article inspirational for me in the sense that it's a focusing tool.  It helps me know which practical advice from CM or SWB or Jenny Rallens or Cindy Rollins I should follow.  It gives me a guide to know why I follow CM advice about how to develop the habit of attention, and reject her advice about other things.  There's just too many "methods" out there, so I need inspiration to know which parts to take and which to leave, and the reasons why I should.  

 

Yes. This. I am crafting a vision for what I want our homeschool to look like, and what my hopes are for my children, and once I have big picture things in my line of sight, I can filter out the things which don't fit. For me, it means things which don't seem to take education seriously. It also means I like a lot of CM, but not all. I am inspired by SWB. I like a lot of what Circe has to say. 

 

But yes, practicalities and how to teach are huge. I'd love to see more of that. My background is with university students, not young children, so the methodologies I studied are not always transferable. But at least I've seen what a typical college freshman is churning out in English class. It's scary, in most cases. I know I don't want that. Lol. Good to know where you're not headed, right?  :tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

Where do you suggest they go? Where does one find the specific tools useful for teaching in this classical way? Could you make some suggestions? I am inspired by your posts, here and in past threads, and I agree that specifics are helpful.

 

First, I need to clarify that I do not consider myself a classical homeschooler.  One of the works which has heavily influenced my POV is the Ratio Studiorum.  http://www.bc.edu/sites/libraries/ratio/ratio1599.pdf(That is not the link I actually read, but I am assuming it is its equivalent.)  I believe that an authentic classical education requires master teachers.  I am not a master of anything.  I am simply a mom who spends inordinate amts of time researching resources and providing my children with the best sources I find.  I do believe the education they are receiving is superior to anything within our real physical realm, but I also believe that it is inferior to what is actually possible for students to receive.  What I offer my children is simply a mishmash of the best educational nuggets amongst the philosophies and methodologies I have studied.

 

What are some that have provided me with the tools I use for teaching my children?  That is not a simple answer either.  :P  Some that are easily located on the web and worth reading are

 

Bloom's taxonomy https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bloom+taxonomy+of+educational+objectives+with+examples

 

Socratic discussion https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=socratic+discussion+educational+objectives+with+examples

 

Four Hallmarks of Jesuit Pedagogy: Prelection, Reflection, Active Learning, Repetition (This is only one section of a larger Jesuit document, Foundations.  It is section 13) http://www.jesuitschoolsnetwork.org/sites/default/files/resources/attachments/Foundations.pdf 

 

I had more I wanted to say about Lewis, Peter Kreeft, Tolkien, Chesterton, and my own personal views on child development and imagination (and the need to nurture those values), but I have run out of time.  But all of those men profess ideals which are educationally inspiring.

[VorLady]

Can someone reassure me that I'm *not* ruining my daughter's childhood, depriving her of her birthright, etc, by implementing a fairly rigorous schedule? All the moms I've been hanging with are so laid back - and I can't work that way. Most of them have barely started teaching their six year olds to read. My daughter and I are doing second grade math, Orton-Gillingham based phonics, formal science, and pretty in depth history. 

 

I just spent yesterday looking over my plans for my first quarter of Tapestry of Grace - two weeks in and we love it. There are all these hands on projects that I just am not going to do. Maybe DD would love them, but I can't make myself do it. Reading the literature and the reference books, that I can and will do! But these other moms talk about doing this nature study thing or that hands-on project and I just think it's not me. I don't think I'm killing her love of learning. She seems to be having a great time. I just need to hear from other moms who were rigorous from day one that it's still working years later.

[Corraleno]

Can someone reassure me that I'm *not* ruining my daughter's childhood, depriving her of her birthright, etc, by implementing a fairly rigorous schedule? All the moms I've been hanging with are so laid back - and I can't work that way. Most of them have barely started teaching their six year olds to read. My daughter and I are doing second grade math, Orton-Gillingham based phonics, formal science, and pretty in depth history. 

 

I just spent yesterday looking over my plans for my first quarter of Tapestry of Grace - two weeks in and we love it. There are all these hands on projects that I just am not going to do. Maybe DD would love them, but I can't make myself do it. Reading the literature and the reference books, that I can and will do! But these other moms talk about doing this nature study thing or that hands-on project and I just think it's not me. I don't think I'm killing her love of learning. She seems to be having a great time. I just need to hear from other moms who were rigorous from day one that it's still working years later.

 

It sounds like you're asking for reassurance that your daughter will be fine if you use the type of curriculum that you prefer, whether it's what she would prefer or not. Unfortunately, no one can answer that question for you, because no one else has your daughter. There are undoubtedly parents who pushed hard with traditional academic work in K and 1st, skipped all the projects and nature study, and their kids were fine. I'm equally sure you'll find parents who tried that and it totally backfired and ended up burning everyone out. 

 

You keep referring to what you're doing as "rigorous," while "rolling your eyes" (as you put it in a previous post) at a CM approach. I would be really careful about assuming that lots of book and seat work = "rigorous" and that the sort of art and nature study recommended by CM is just unnecessary fluff. It seems like you want to skip the hands-on stuff because you don't like it, even though your daughter might love it and learn a lot from it, so you're trying to justify skipping it by dismissing it as "less rigorous" than the bookwork. Of course any curriculum needs to work for the way the parent teaches as well as the way the student learns, but I would always lean as far as possible towards what works best for the student. 

 

However, I will admit that the vast majority of "hands-on projects" and "activities" that I've seen included in prescheduled curriculum packages seem to be of little educational (or artistic) value. I think children benefit far more from doing real art, with beautiful materials, and from real, seasonal nature study — i.e. exactly what Charlotte Mason recommends.  ;)

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Can someone reassure me that I'm *not* ruining my daughter's childhood, depriving her of her birthright, etc, by implementing a fairly rigorous schedule? All the moms I've been hanging with are so laid back - and I can't work that way. Most of them have barely started teaching their six year olds to read. My daughter and I are doing second grade math, Orton-Gillingham based phonics, formal science, and pretty in depth history. 

 

I just spent yesterday looking over my plans for my first quarter of Tapestry of Grace - two weeks in and we love it. There are all these hands on projects that I just am not going to do. Maybe DD would love them, but I can't make myself do it. Reading the literature and the reference books, that I can and will do! But these other moms talk about doing this nature study thing or that hands-on project and I just think it's not me. I don't think I'm killing her love of learning. She seems to be having a great time. I just need to hear from other moms who were rigorous from day one that it's still working years later.

 

What's to gain with this kind of plan?  What's to lose?  What are you looking to accomplish by your program?  What evidence is there that it works to accomplish that? 

 

I'm not much into a lot of craft type stuff, and like Carraleno said, a lot of the activities in pre-K programs seem kind of dumb.  So I understand not wanting to do them.

 

On the other hand, kids at that age are still getting a lot out of physical learning.  There isn't much point in learning about trees or the laws of motion when you still have limited experience with them in concrete and natural settings - much better to actually go out and see trees, or frog spawn, or whatever.   Even things like fine motor control still require development at 6, and hand work is ideal for that.

 

It's a weird thing that North Americans are constantly worried that they are not producing enough scientists and engineers, and so they focus more and more on seat work.  In the meantime, those European countries that do ell at producing such people spend significant time and effort on experiential and physical learning, to the point of very soft starts to academic work.

[IfIOnly]

Not rigorous, but my kids are getting a better education than I received in public school. They can diagram a sentence and understand the parts of speech, yet until I started homeschooling my own children, I had never heard most grammar terms such as preposition and dependent clause. My children can multiply and divide fractions as they go about their day; I couldn't apply math the way they do in real life at their ages or at all depending on the operation (at least not until I started learning along side them via homeschooling). Their standardized test scores rock. I'm planning on them graduating high school with close to an associates degree via dual enrollment. I failed most of my first semester college classes because my crappy education hadn't prepared me for college. But no, we're not rigorous by your definition. :)

[LucyStoner]

For my older son, I think I am relaxed in my approach to an acedemically challenging education which comes with enough structure to accommodate his autism. I see myself as a coordinator for his entire education and teacher for a handful of subjects. I think most people would look at his work and assume he is getting a strong education. He plays piano, takes Mandarin, is doing AOPS, is learning programming, is a serious spelling bee hopeful with the hours of Latin, Greek, root and etymology study to prove it and takes challenging outside classes in things like philosophy, science and writing geared to gifted learners. He's headed towards being ready for college on the young side. But we don't have a detailed daily plan more than a week out or a set number of school hours per day.

 

For my younger son we are definitely relaxed. I don't see the need for too much formal education before he's 7 or 8 and he's just 6 now. He takes art, piano, violin, a relaxed drop off nature co-OP, we work on reading and do field trips. We will be using Oak Meadow first grade curriculum this year.

 

We aren't unschoolers per say but the things my sons dive into are their own choices. My older son does the spelling bee and takes Mardarin because that is what interests him. My younger son begged for violin lessons from the time he was barely 4.

 

I don't think relaxed and rigorous are mutually exclusive of each other. I've known very structured, serious homeschoolers who weren't very rigorous in their educational goals or standards and very relaxed unschoolers with high intellectual goals.

[FO4UR]

It sounds like you're asking for reassurance that your daughter will be fine if you use the type of curriculum that you prefer, whether it's what she would prefer or not. Unfortunately, no one can answer that question for you, because no one else has your daughter. There are undoubtedly parents who pushed hard with traditional academic work in K and 1st, skipped all the projects and nature study, and their kids were fine. I'm equally sure you'll find parents who tried that and it totally backfired and ended up burning everyone out. 

 

You keep referring to what you're doing as "rigorous," while "rolling your eyes" (as you put it in a previous post) at a CM approach. I would be really careful about assuming that lots of book and seat work = "rigorous" and that the sort of art and nature study recommended by CM is just unnecessary fluff. It seems like you want to skip the hands-on stuff because you don't like it, even though your daughter might love it and learn a lot from it, so you're trying to justify skipping it by dismissing it as "less rigorous" than the bookwork. Of course any curriculum needs to work for the way the parent teaches as well as the way the student learns, but I would always lean as far as possible towards what works best for the student. 

 

However, I will admit that the vast majority of "hands-on projects" and "activities" that I've seen included in prescheduled curriculum packages seem to be of little educational (or artistic) value. I think children benefit far more from doing real art, with beautiful materials, and from real, seasonal nature study — i.e. exactly what Charlotte Mason recommends.  ;)

 

:iagree:

 

 

CM saw the folly in trying to make scholars out of little people who had no common sense of the world around them.  What good does it do to learn about mitosis and meiosis for a child who cannot even name the plants and animals in their own backyard, let alone *know* them?  This sort of learning is akin to party tricks, meaningless but entertaining.

 

After a certain point, we lose that golden opportunity to give the child first-hand experience of all the things they will be mastering in their years of formal schooling.  Don't bother with busywork.  You don't need to mummify chickens. :lol:   However, do hands-on paper sloyd and the like before geometry, do Nature Study before biology, study art and literature to pass on culture not merely for an academic prize. Teach her hand-work (sewing, crafting, etc...) before expecting beautiful handwriting.  The things that you can give a start and then she spends the next hour enthralled...do those daily.  They are NOT for nothing.  They build a foundation.

 

 

Prioritize what is developmentally ripe.  

[Runningmom80]

:iagree:

 

 

CM saw the folly in trying to make scholars out of little people who had no common sense of the world around them.  What good does it do to learn about mitosis and meiosis for a child who cannot even name the plants and animals in their own backyard, let alone *know* them?  This sort of learning is akin to party tricks, meaningless but entertaining.

 

After a certain point, we lose that golden opportunity to give the child first-hand experience of all the things they will be mastering in their years of formal schooling.  Don't bother with busywork.  You don't need to mummify chickens. :lol:   However, do hands-on paper sloyd and the like before geometry, do Nature Study before biology, study art and literature to pass on culture not merely for an academic prize. Teach her hand-work (sewing, crafting, etc...) before expecting beautiful handwriting.  The things that you can give a start and then she spends the next hour enthralled...do those daily.  They are NOT for nothing.  They build a foundation.

 

 

Prioritize what is developmentally ripe.  

 

Love this.

[mommymilkies]

I don't often see people here insisting that every student should aim for the Ivies if they want to be considered a success.  In the years I've spent reading the High School board, I've seem many lovely threads with suggestions for state schools or vocational programs or apprenticeships or school and work combos (as well as some extended threads detailing the journey to colleges within the hoop jumping of college sports eligibility as well as some very selective schools).

 

Homeschooling does open a lot of incredibly varied doors.  Part of parenting is helping identify doors that are a good fit for your kid.

 

What does sometimes trouble me is when I see homeschoolers who have bought into the idea that the mere act of homeschooling is in and of itself better than any public school.  I've seen it sometimes expressed as "any day homeschooling is better than a day in public school" or "all I have to do is give them a pile of books and they'll be better off."  I think this is unfortunate magical thinking.  Homeschooling alone does not make one uniquely prepped for highly selective college admissions.  

Yeah, after a bad experience with a family who said that and really DID drop the ball, I won't allow myself to even think that anymore.  Even if you unschool, it's important to take into consideration reality with delays and neglect. :/

 

I think you misunderstood the intent of my post.   :confused1:

 

I did say that I believe that the OP (and myself as well as the rest of us reading this thread) are likely homeschooling because we want to give opportunities to our children.  That is in the top 3 of reasons to HS for most of us, by my guess.

 

That is not the same thing as saying that all homeschooling magically creates opportunity.  It doesn't.  

I also homeschool to give opportunities for my children.  My oldest came home from ps Kindy mostly because she was bored out of her mind (the bullying we found out about later). Homeschooling her allows me to accelerate her at a level they were unwilling to do because of testing and school policy.  We learn a lot more in depth and breadth than the public school kids I tutored this summer, too.  But that doesn't mean every school is like that.  There are so many excellent schools out there.  But lack of access with other things (lifestyle, etc.) are definitely one reason we homeschool.  

 

That said, there are a lot of day when I think I have just totally dropped the ball.  I've been too relaxed, we haven't "done" anything. This is so subjective.  Because what I consider relaxed is probably not what a lot of other people consider relaxed.  We put our faith in different things that we consider rigorous that often vary by our children, lifestyle and background. So this whole conversation is interesting, but we're kind of passing each other by.  I do think that we've all seen at least one example of what someone considered mildly relaxed or ok in homeschooling that edged on or surpassed standards for educational neglect, but it's surely not the standard.  

[....]

Can someone reassure me that I'm *not* ruining my daughter's childhood, depriving her of her birthright, etc, by implementing a fairly rigorous schedule? All the moms I've been hanging with are so laid back - and I can't work that way. Most of them have barely started teaching their six year olds to read. My daughter and I are doing second grade math, Orton-Gillingham based phonics, formal science, and pretty in depth history. 

 

I just spent yesterday looking over my plans for my first quarter of Tapestry of Grace - two weeks in and we love it. There are all these hands on projects that I just am not going to do. Maybe DD would love them, but I can't make myself do it. Reading the literature and the reference books, that I can and will do! But these other moms talk about doing this nature study thing or that hands-on project and I just think it's not me. I don't think I'm killing her love of learning. She seems to be having a great time. I just need to hear from other moms who were rigorous from day one that it's still working years later.

 

It seriously depends on the kid.  If you both enjoy what you're doing together, I say, keep doing what you're doing.  As long as she's getting a crafty/projecty outlet somewhere...if that's what she wants.  Also, some kids don't like hands-on/crafty stuff.  I realized this about 18 months ago.  My oldest two are kinesthetic learners, so I was used to turning everything into a project, craft, experiment, nature study, nature walk...you get the idea.  When I tried this approach with Kid #4, she would be frustrated and bored.  Art projects made her cry.  It turns out she doesn't like to draw/color...doesn't like crafts or projects.  She absolutely loves classical music, spelling and math (of all things -Lol).  We figured out that she is an auditory learner.  She does great just following TWTM.  *gasp*

 

As far as the original question...some of my kids are relaxed homeschoolers and some aren't.  *shrug*  I'm huge into following each kid's needs, learning personality and (of course) how our family is feeling at the time (like when we had the baby, we took a huge break - but we really needed it).  

 

My 7 yro and 10 yro are mostly following TWTM.  So, they are probably NOT relaxed homeschoolers.  My 12 yro works for about 2 hours a day on academics.  He's definitely a relaxed homeschooler.  My 13 yro chose what she wanted to study this year.  It's all high school level and she's also working through a couple of textbooks that are used in colleges.  But, she probably only works 4 hours a day.  She's smart, but doesn't have the greatest attention span in the world.  Not sure if she would qualify as a RH or not.   :tongue_smilie:

 

So my answer to everything is, "Depends on the kid."   :001_smile:

[EMS83]

The whole Relaxed Homeschool thing as a label started with Dr. Mary Hood, I'm pretty sure.  She even wrote a book with the title back around 1983.  She describes it more as a mindset than an approach.  It melds parent-directed goals with child-directed goals, observational recordkeeping, and learning centers into a lifestyle more than a curriculum or method.  Dr. Hood maintained this mindset throughout her career of home educating her five children.  It appeals to me because my goals and desires for my children don't have anything to do with outpacing the public schools or preparing them for corporate America.  I want them to love God, and to be humble, diligent, and curious.  Resources like the classical history cycle is just one way I can help them be curious, but I use it like a tool instead of a guide.  :) 

 

Unschooling is not quite in the same pot as relaxed schooling.  Unschoolers tend to see the parental role as one of facilitating a purely child-directed lifestyle of learning.  However, there are some similarities in relaxed schooling to both unschooling and neo-classical education, as Dr. Hood's main inspirations were both John Holt and Charlotte Mason.  However the two are not interchangeable terms, just like "schole" and relaxed schooling are not interchangeable.  I haven't heard of schole, so I can't comment there.  I've read almost all of Dr. Hood's books, though.  ;)  I already thought in the same vein as her where education is concerned, but she gave shape where I couldn't.

 

Our day typically includes chores, assigned seat work, centers time, and free time.  We do this year-round and failure to accomplish the required chores and seat work falls under the disobedience umbrella.  Our "breaks" take the shape of disruptions for household projects, illness, or travel.  It's not *the* way to do it, but it's a way and it's the way we chose.  :)  I'm a fan of being happy for others without feeling the need to adopt their methods or convert them to mine.  So in that spirit, my only point to this post, OP, was to clarify where the "relaxed" term came from as opposed to unschooling or classical or schole.  If another has pointed it out, please forgive the repetition.  And I hope you find the post and resources on rigor that you are looking for and will challenge, inspire, and encourage you!  We all need those boosts on whatever our chosen path is.  :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

Alright, I thought this was a fantastic post, and I thought it was pretty relevant to a lot of the rabbit trails this post sparked, so I decided to share it here rather than as a new thread:

 

http://project-based-homeschooling.com/camp-creek-blog/five-ways-to-stop-unschooling-attrition

 

 

Whether you call yourself relaxed, rigorous, unschooly, or whatever, this post has great points.  And yeah, she uses the "R" word, in a positive way.  Which is how I use it, too.

[lewelma]

I'm wondering if there might be 2 different ways to use the word 'rigor.'  1) Making the content and skills challenging, and 2) spending a lot of time studying.  When my kids were 6-8 years old we had difficult content (SM, classic novels, science fair projects, reports, etc), but we just did not spend a lot of time studying and were done everyday before noon for sure. 

 

The problem with evaluating how rigorous others are is that each child's challenge level is different.  You want that sweet spot.  So if kids are struggling and crying, I would suggest that the challenge level is too high and for a parent to step back and down.  But kids learn fastest when they are at the sweet spot, so even though the material would appear less rigorous, in reality it is more rigorous because the student can connect and learn. 

 

Another thing I have found, is that the more perfectly I challenge my children, the fewer hours of work they can do. My older is in 9th/10th grade but can't work longer than 6 hours.  But wow, those 6 hours are incredibly productive.  If I give him easier work, he could work for 8 hours, but we would still get to the same point at the same time and he would lose his free time in the process.

 

So it seems that you can't evaluate rigor from the outside based either on level of material or on time spent, because it is very child specific.  And I think that some people have a very difficult time finding the sweet spot for challenge.  Both people who have over-shot the mark and who have under-shot the mark come here for advice.  Sometimes the advice is increase challenge but sometimes the advice is to decrease challenge.  The goal is the sweet spot where learning happens the most efficiently. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[8filltheheart]

I like the majority of that article, Rose.  The one place where I disagree with her is the suggestion that some definitions don't matter.  Honestly, it is precisely b/c people are often using words to mean completely different things that people end up talking right past each other.  Does this thread actually clarify the definition of relaxed?  It still probably depends completely on the perception of the person! I agree completely that the LABEL doesn't matter. It seems to me that her use of the term "label" is more connected to pride issues than meaningful discourse with clarification behind meaning.

 

I like her description of rigor, but it does seem to be connected more with challenge and critical analysis than modern educational "rigorous" objectives.  As a mom who is around a lot of high-achieving ps high school students, my perception of the term rigor is completely jaded.  The article linked by runningmom80 expresses my opinion of modern "rigor."  http://www.tonywagner.com/238

 

 

In virtually all of the AP courses we observed (and in the ones I have seen in numerous districts,) teachers were covering more academic content at a faster pace, but the primary competency students were being asked to master was the ability to memorize copious amounts of information for the test. Teachers’ questions to students tended to be almost entirely factual recall. In our opinion, not a single one of the AP classes we saw was sufficiently rigorous to prepare students for work, citizenship, and continuous learning in today’s world. In fact, there was a stronger purpose to the lesson, much more thinking being done by students, and assessments that required more analysis in several of the non-AP courses....

The low levels of rigor we observed in the Advanced Placement classes raises additional questions. The main trouble with these courses was not poor teaching, but rather with the tests for which students were being prepped. Developing more skillful teaching and instructional leadership ...will not solve the problem of bad tests that require much more memorization than thinking. What happens to our students and to our society if Advanced Placement tests and the traditional “college prep†curriculum are enthroned as the new standard for rigor?

 

At this point, I think the term rigor is a catch-all word that is supposed to encompass high academic ideals.  That is a great goal, but then the actual definition of academic ideals is really the crux of the issue.   ;)  That is where I think the use of the word starts fall apart.  Listing 15 academic subjects for 2nd graders may be lauded as rigorous, but digging in the dirt and buiding dams may be bemoaned as frivolous time wasting.  It all boils down to what is deemed as worthy of our children's time. (How many parents are comfortable today with eschewing preschool academics? Why? Why is preschool atuomatically praiseworthy?  Why is knowing their abcs at 3 or 4 more valued than playing?)

 

[enchantedhome]

I didn't intend to begin a discussion about rigor (though that's interesting too!), but about posts and bits of advice I've seen floating around the homeschool world which seem to me to be more about patting people on the back and telling them it's ok if they don't finish the math book or get to anything other than a few basics in a slapdash fashion. It seems to be rooted in an idea that HS is better, no matter what, than PS. My feeling, and the one that prompted the thread, is that HS can be amazing and deeply enriching, but it takes intention, dedication, and…I don't know, professionalism? Not sure of the right word here, but an acknowledgement that as a HS mom, my kids' educations are in my hands, and yes, we are living a life and not just schooling, but I still need to get up every day and teach and learn with them. I don't need a pat on the back necessarily, but a community of teachers who are teaching more intentionally. I'm totally not interested in "rigor" if it means having to use certain curricula which some segment of the population has deemed "challenging" and "rigorous." Don't care. I do care about actually getting to school work and getting to it on a regular basis, and about teaching my kids at a level which asks them to dig a little deeper and grow in virtue and wisdom. I'm opposed to the idea of "relaxed" if it means "eh, whatever, we'll get to it when we get to it."

That's what I was getting at:) 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes.  I really do get that, and I applaud the sentiment. And share it.  It's just that there is also a pretty long history on this board of using the term "relaxed" in a different way.  Many of us here have talked about trying to relax, or to become more relaxed homeschoolers, because we are struggling with problems of comparisons and expectations.  Maybe we compare our kids to the ones on the Accelerated board, and feel inadequate.  Maybe we compare them to some other school standard, or to their cousins, or to some idea in our own heads of what the perfect school should look like.  Maybe we compare them to their siblings. All these are ways of teaching at somebody other than the child in front of us, or teaching to some rigid expectation we got from the outside about what our homeschool should look like.  In that context, relaxing is meant to embrace the idea of teaching the child in front of you, in a way that works with that child, meets them where they are and brings them to where they need to be while respecting them as people who we hope will become lifelong lovers of learning.  Teaching the child we have what they need in a way they can learn, rather than trying to fit ourselves or that child into some other kind of box.

 

So, I think some of us - me at least - who respond to implied criticism of the idea of being relaxed are coming from that context.  We have maybe struggled hard to become more relaxed, and we like it!

 

Just to give you some context of what I'm talking about, here are a couple of threads in that spirit.  I think you'll find that most posters aren't talking about taking an "eh, whatever" approach:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/422222-ever-desire-a-more-relaxed-approach-to-homeschool/?hl=+ever%20+want%20+more%20+relaxed%20+homeschool

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/489558-relaxed-homeschoolers-sept-2013-check-in/?hl=relaxed+homeschoolers&do=findComment&comment=5276411

 

 

[MomatHWTK]

I think lots of folks who have taught their kids for a long time recognize that there is a rhythm to life and adapt to that rhythm.  I would not upend my entire life and the life of my children and put them in PS simply because life intervened and we didn't finish a math text.  Nor would I seek out condemnation or lectures were I to be in a position where our best effort wasn't being put forth.  Many homeschool forums are designed to be support groups for the parents doing the teaching.  Thus, it is not unusual to see posts that are supportive of someone who is trying to make the best of a bad situation.  Or perhaps the more professional home educators deem posting on support threads to be a bad use of their time.  And, yes, there are those who believe that just about anything done at home is better than exposing their children to the behaviors and attitudes found in their local ps.  There are those who believe that a child-led education is of worth even if it doesn't conform to modern American educational standards.  There are even those who believe there is life without college. 

 

It was my personal experience that there was very little I learned elementary through high school that wasn't available to be retaught either in high school or college.  So were I to lose a year or two of "teaching" at home (assuming I was in compliance with state laws), I would not hesitate to believe I could catch my children up on that information in a short period of time.   I know not everyone agrees, but particularly in the younger years there are many paths to get to the same end point and some of them meander far more afield than others. 

 

 

[enchantedhome]

Yes.  I really do get that, and I applaud the sentiment. And share it.  It's just that there is also a pretty long history on this board of using the term "relaxed" in a different way.  Many of us here have talked about trying to relax, or to become more relaxed homeschoolers, because we are struggling with problems of comparisons and expectations.  Maybe we compare our kids to the ones on the Accelerated board, and feel inadequate.  Maybe we compare them to some other school standard, or to their cousins, or to some idea in our own heads of what the perfect school should look like.  Maybe we compare them to their siblings. All these are ways of teaching at somebody other than the child in front of us, or teaching to some rigid expectation we got from the outside about what our homeschool should look like.  In that context, relaxing is meant to embrace the idea of teaching the child in front of you, in a way that works with that child, meets them where they are and brings them to where they need to be while respecting them as people who we hope will become lifelong lovers of learning.  Teaching the child we have what they need in a way they can learn, rather than trying to fit ourselves or that child into some other kind of box.

 

So, I think some of us - me at least - who respond to implied criticism of the idea of being relaxed are coming from that context.  We have maybe struggled hard to become more relaxed, and we like it!

 

Just to give you some context of what I'm talking about, here are a couple of threads in that spirit.  I think you'll find that most posters aren't talking about taking an "eh, whatever" approach:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/422222-ever-desire-a-more-relaxed-approach-to-homeschool/?hl=+ever%20+want%20+more%20+relaxed%20+homeschool

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/489558-relaxed-homeschoolers-sept-2013-check-in/?hl=relaxed+homeschoolers&do=findComment&comment=5276411

 

I totally get the idea of relaxed from that perspective. 

[Mrs Twain]

I didn't intend to begin a discussion about rigor (though that's interesting too!), but about posts and bits of advice I've seen floating around the homeschool world which seem to me to be more about patting people on the back and telling them it's ok if they don't finish the math book or get to anything other than a few basics in a slapdash fashion. It seems to be rooted in an idea that HS is better, no matter what, than PS. My feeling, and the one that prompted the thread, is that HS can be amazing and deeply enriching, but it takes intention, dedication, and…I don't know, professionalism? Not sure of the right word here, but an acknowledgement that as a HS mom, my kids' educations are in my hands, and yes, we are living a life and not just schooling, but I still need to get up every day and teach and learn with them. I don't need a pat on the back necessarily, but a community of teachers who are teaching more intentionally. I'm totally not interested in "rigor" if it means having to use certain curricula which some segment of the population has deemed "challenging" and "rigorous." Don't care. I do care about actually getting to school work and getting to it on a regular basis, and about teaching my kids at a level which asks them to dig a little deeper and grow in virtue and wisdom. I'm opposed to the idea of "relaxed" if it means "eh, whatever, we'll get to it when we get to it."

That's what I was getting at:)

I completely understand what you are saying, and I absolutely agree with your sentiments. The vast majority of homeschoolers I know are the type who never finish the math book and laugh it off as if it didn't matter. All that matters (they say) is that the kids are not at public school. "Character" is what counts rather than academics. Many of these kids are behind their public school peers in academics, but the local homeschool community says that it doesn't matter at all.

 

The reason I read these boards is because it is the only place I can find likeminded homeschoolers who care about providing their kids with an advanced, quality education. My educational plans and goals have been improved beyond measure because of the excellent advice and ideas I have read about on this forum. I think that is what you are talking about.

 

If "rigor" is out of fashion, perhaps "diligence" would be a more suitable word.

[enchantedhome]

Perhaps my posts here have not been well-phrased, and perhaps I've stepped on toes unintentionally. Apologies if that's the case! I think I'll bow out and return to lurking and reading  :)  

[texasmama]

I didn't intend to begin a discussion about rigor (though that's interesting too!), but about posts and bits of advice I've seen floating around the homeschool world which seem to me to be more about patting people on the back and telling them it's ok if they don't finish the math book or get to anything other than a few basics in a slapdash fashion. It seems to be rooted in an idea that HS is better, no matter what, than PS. My feeling, and the one that prompted the thread, is that HS can be amazing and deeply enriching, but it takes intention, dedication, and…I don't know, professionalism? Not sure of the right word here, but an acknowledgement that as a HS mom, my kids' educations are in my hands, and yes, we are living a life and not just schooling, but I still need to get up every day and teach and learn with them. I don't need a pat on the back necessarily, but a community of teachers who are teaching more intentionally. I'm totally not interested in "rigor" if it means having to use certain curricula which some segment of the population has deemed "challenging" and "rigorous." Don't care. I do care about actually getting to school work and getting to it on a regular basis, and about teaching my kids at a level which asks them to dig a little deeper and grow in virtue and wisdom. I'm opposed to the idea of "relaxed" if it means "eh, whatever, we'll get to it when we get to it."

That's what I was getting at:) 

I think that you and I are probably similar homeschoolers, if that helps you any.  I am somewhere in the middle of the pack and fine with this.  I make a solid, detailed plan and carry it out.  We do finish the math book, but most people would not accuse me of being rigorous.  I agree that being a homeschool teacher is a job.  I am a bit weary at present due to life circumstances, but I still get up every day and facilitate learning.  I am intentional in my teaching.  

[texasmama]

Please don't get scared off. I have been enjoying this discussion as it has made me come to a few conclusions of my own. 

I agree!

[StartingOver]

I haven't relaxed since 1999 , first time I read TWTM, someone wanna try to teach an old dog new tricks? Or come teach mine so I can find or what this relaxed could be.

[8filltheheart]

Over the yrs I have frequently posted about interest driven studies, especially with science topics. A few yrs ago I posted about my dd's interest-driven study on birds. A poster posted a lengthy thread about homeschooling being about home-SCHOOL-ing and about our responsibilities in needing to be educators providing content rich and meaty science studies, not just flippantly following interests. The post suggested that interest-driven studies were inferior to pre-fab science textbook type programs.

 

I respect that poster's POV for her family. But, bc that is what works for her does not negate the value of interest-driven studies as a whole. :) Many paths lead to similar outcomes. If interest-driven studies really were a dismal failure in preparing children for science careers, my children should not be able to succeed in those fields. Yet, shockingly, ;) our oldest ds is a successful chemE and our youngest ds is attending college on full scholarship for a physics major. As a 1st semester sophomore, after this semester he only lacks 2 physics classes to complete his undergrad physics requirements and has a 4.0 GPA to boot. He never opened a single science textbook before his 1st high school physics course. Like all of my children, he spent hours weekly reading whatever science topics interested him.

 

Anyway, just bc ideas seem foreign and not educational enough from another reader's perspective does not mean that those methods are in actuality inferior. They may simply be different and that difference might make some posters uncomfortable, but someone else might love dwelling there. :)

[lewelma]

cmmama, sometimes these threads take a life of their own and move beyond the original post.  Please don't feel the need to leave.  I am enjoying the conversation.

 

I am curious about what counts as 'intentional'.

 

For me, I have some big picture goals, but I am open to the serendipitous, which by definition cannot be intentional.

 

'occurring or discovered by chance in a happy or beneficial way.'

[Hobbes]

I am curious about what counts as 'intentional'.

 

For me, I have some big picture goals, but I am open to the serendipitous, which by definition cannot be intentional.

 

'occurring or discovered by chance in a happy or beneficial way.'

I think you can be intentional about almost anything. :-P

 

I'm a planner. I recently wrote and taught a course (twice) for our women's Bible study group entitled 'Living Intentionally'. So I'm all about a thoughtful life and homeschool and making the most of what we're given.

 

But in the past few years, I've been consciously trying to be intentional about embracing learning and parenting opportunities which "occur or are discovered by chance in a happy and beneficial way"! I think it has a lot to do with having a a clear view of your intentional goals and purpose and being able to recognize when a spontaneous, possibly self-directed opportunity fits into those overall goals. To quote Tsh Oxenrider, it's "living holistically with your life's purpose".

 

I don't think intentionality and spontaneity are mutually exclusive, just as rigor and being relaxed don't seem to be mutually exclusive!

[Bluegoat]

When I think about being relaxed about teaching, the thing I think about most is what Charlotte Mason says about trust.  It's about realizing learning is about building authentic relationships with all kinds of things and ideas, and opening those possibilities up is far more important than finishing up a checklist by a particular date.  That this relationship building is something that happens within the minds and hearts children because that is their nature - and we don't have to do something esoteric to activate that capacity.  And also by nature, all human beings are attracted to the Divine, in itself and as it is expressed in teh created world - truth and beauty. 

 

These are trust issues, trust in God fundamentally, in human nature, in our children, and ourselves.  If we can maintain that trust, we can carry on as facilitators of our child's education without hysteria, or feeling like one false step could make it go wrong, or one gap will set them up for failure.  It allows us to be responsive and flexible in relation to our particular child and the environment we find ourselves in.   It's very much a "consider the lilies" approach I think.

[stm4him]

I don't have time to read all the previous posts right now but I think it is funny because I used to feel like this.  Then we had a bunch more children, health issues, and money issues.  My oldest hit puberty at 10 and really began to rebel about school.  I had always done full school loads since she was 4 1/2.  She was burnt out and tired of being "behind" (she's my struggling learner), and I still continued to push my ideas about education and rigor and excellence and all of that.  After my son got leukemia, I began to realize that math is less important than his reality and the what I wanted to do with him in the real possibility of losing him was not math if that isn't what he wanted.  But I STILL pushed many days and tried to live as normally as possible, and for me that included schoolwork.  I used that to help me cope.  Bad idea.  I ended up a physical mess with all the stress I put us under and dealing with their reactions, etc. to my pushing.  

 

After I fell apart physically things changed.  I began to simplify and sometimes unschool simply because I wasn't well enough to teach consistently.  I went back and forth each day between teaching a class outside of our home and crashing.  It was miserable.  Then we moved to the country and dropped most outside commitments and I began to relax and enjoy more but I also sort of freaked out about how to school without the co op we were used to guiding us.  I tried a few things that were more independent but they ended up not being so independent and not my style.  Lately we've been doing more of a Robinson method (rigorous but pretty independent) and it helped bring me calm.  I began to be able to focus more on resting and healing.  But I have still been pushing and I don't like it.  My oldest doesn't want to do school unless I make her.  That is not internal drive.  She is either doing her chores (which she drags out ALL day) or she is attempting to do her schoolwork and may or may not get it done.  My son reads voraciously and is learning sooo much but he still doesn't like math.  My third one loved math and now he is losing his love of it because I am making him do a textbook.  My fourth one doesn't want to read or do phonics most of the time.  This really isn't how I want homeschooling to be.  I don't want there to be a line between school and real life.  I don't want rigor if it hurts our relationships and makes my kids want to avoid "schoolwork".  I don't know that I am comfortable with unschooling either, though.  Carole Joy Seid reminded me just how much I love reading aloud and learning with my kids.  I love educational materials.  So that is why being a "relaxed" homeschooler (or maybe you would call it TJEd or literature-based) appeals to me.  

 

I want my little ones to play and have their childhood and be available to be their mommy and play and learn with them, teaching all along the way.  That will naturally evolve into learning alongside them when they are reading and getting ideas for things to do from books and other educational things around our house (which I acquired while trying every known curriculum in the world in my early years when we had money and I was a curriculum junkie).  But the learning will be fun and it will be THEIR idea.  I want to help guide them to their mission and provide the resources to get them there.  I want to discuss great books with them without a curriculum!  But I don't want to provide the motivation!  I do want to set an example for them.  All those years of pushing them I was trying to get my education through homeschooling them and I DID learn a lot, but I would have learned more if I had spent more time learning myself and less time pushing them.  I also think our relationships would have been less strained.  My kids are so fun and affectionate when I want to do what they want to do and I am teaching them what they are ASKING to learn.  When we are cuddled up with great books or sharing an audiobook experience rather than forcing curriculum our days our delightful.  And I had even pretty much dropped most read aloud because I deemed that less important than getting the curriculum done.  In order to get them independent, I essentially gave up all the parts of homeschooling that gave me joy and kept the parts that were rigorous to make sure that the curriculum got done so that I didn't have to worry about their education or feel guilty for lack of consistency.  I couldn't seem to fit both reading aloud and exploring in with getting our schoolwork done.  I was handing electronics to my 2 year old so I could teach my older kids what they didn't want to learn.  How backwards is that?

 

I am still finding my way after 9 years, but after reading more about unschooling and Carole Joy Seid's words about needing a Bible, a math book, and a library card, and the Moore's ideas (backed up by tons of research) about better late than early, I really feel much more relaxed about whether they will learn math and grammar and graduate.....lol.  And it is a much better place to be.  I still want to help guide them with weekly meetings and help them form their own goals and such, but I want the motivation to be their own.  I don't think you can teach a child to own their own education by talking about it.  You have to step back from the pushing.  I LOVE teaching.....but I want to teach what they WANT to learn.  Not what I want them to learn.  I need to learn what I think they should learn and set the example and share my passion with them as I go.  And I need to accept it if they don't choose to immerse themselves in that subject when they get older.  They are not me.  They are individuals with individual missions.  

 

I am so thankful that I spent so much time learning from programs like SWR and Right Start and IEW and CC's Essentials because now I am equipped to naturally teach my younger ones as they are looking for it.  I am thankful that we spent time with Saxon and Hake because I would still recommend those programs to them (and I may very well use them myself).  I am excited to be inspirational by studying in front of them (which I had neglected to do before even though I wanted to).  I am thankful that we don't have a lot of money (even though it is so hard and frustrating at times when I want to buy books for myself or materials for them), it has forced me to make use of what we have and the library and that has reminded me of the enormous value in just reading like crazy.  It has forced me to narrow my book selections to more classics since most of the modern books I want aren't there.  It has helped me see that I can use free methods (like copywork, dictation, narration, drawing, memorization) myself in front of them and show them that these learning tools are available to them as well.  

 

I don't have to plan.  I just have to be present.  Pick up a book and read.  Write about it.  Draw.  Read to my kids.  Listen to them read to me.  Go on an outing together.  Take a nature walk on our land. Be myself.  Be their mom.  Love on them.  Tell them all the gushy things about them that I forget to say when I am pushing curriculum.  Dream big with them and offer the wisdom of the learning methods I know and the books and materials they can use.  For me, that is the actual fulfillment of the picture I had in my head when I started homeschooling when years of curriculum and scheduling attempts never was and only lead to discouragement for all of us.  So I understand when people want to talk curriculum and schedules.  That was me for eight years and if I hadn't had the amount of trials I've had it probably still would be.  But going forward, I'm going to recommend a different way of doing things.  I sure wish I'd listened to those silly veteran moms who told me to relax.  They were right.

 

SWB said in her talk that she wishes she had sent one of her children to school because she couldn't be both his teacher and his mom and she would rather have been his mom.  (I'm totally botching up the way she said it).  I understand that and I don't judge her choices at all.  I find myself in the same place with mine.  I don't think the choice has to be between sending her to school and continuing to push her to do her schoolwork.  I think I can be her mom, let go of school (as scary as that is), re-establish her love of learning, and then be here to teach and mentor when she is ready to tackle her education.  There is a risk that she may not be as far along in her curriculum as she would be otherwise, but the other way around risks our relationship and her passion for learning and I'm just not willing to risk those anymore.  And I think once those two are solidly in place, she will fly through whatever "curriculum" or class she needs to do what she feels called to do with her life.  

[Chrysalis Academy]

Perhaps my posts here have not been well-phrased, and perhaps I've stepped on toes unintentionally. Apologies if that's the case! I think I'll bow out and return to lurking and reading  :)  

 

Aww, don't go away! This has been a really interesting thread. Kudos for picking such a rich and interesting topic for your first big post! But come back in, the water is fine. 

 

Somebody upthread mentioned talking past each other re: definitions. I think we can also talk past each other just based on history and context sometimes (which is why I shared those "relaxed" threads).  But it's not a reason to stop talking! I find that pushing through misunderstandings can often lead to new insights.

[The Governess]

I have definitely enlarged my perspective on homeschooling since becoming a member here. My oldest was reading fluently at 3. She started kindergarten work at four - she went to play-based preschool twice a week and the other three days we did kindergarten at home for about 2 hours a day. By the time she was actually kindergarten-aged, we were spending 3 hours a day on school, minimum. I remember a homeschooling mom of older kids telling me that 30 minutes a day was all I needed and that I was overdoing things. I couldn't imagine spending that little time with dd! She was ready and she needed it, and I've never regretted it.

 

But, now I can see that, for the most part, each family figures out a rhythm and academic plan that works for them and their kids. There is room in my brain now for the idea that some families might spend 30 minutes a day on kindergarten and it's absolutely the right thing in that family structure and for that child. And that it might even be okay not to finish the math book. I can believe this and at the same time believe that the path I took with dd was absolutely the right thing, too. And the path I am taking with my youngest is a little different, but I have less anxiety about how everything will turn out the second time through. I guess what I'm saying is the more homeschooling experience I have, the more respect I have for families that choose differently than I do, and the more I see that maybe in their shoes I would have made the same choices.

[Rio's Run]

I am also a newbie.  I started homeschooling last year(7th grade) and lurked in the shadows of this forum as you have said you do, cmmamma, ever since.  It's funny to me, though, because I have the opposite impression of the posters here.  I find most of their planning threads to indicate anything other than "relaxed," and in fact end up feeling my own ideas of an 'academic' homeschool are peanuts in comparison.  They are doing Latin and Greek and French or Chinese, etc?  Herodotus & King Lear in 6th grade?  AP U.S. History in 8th grade?  Yikes. There are also threads with parents struggling in one subject or the other needing 'catch up' or remedial help and those who don't believe in assessment of any kind.  I think there are threads for all styles of education here, so with the right search terms, you can find PLENTY of posters who share your visions.  

 

For me, the most important thing is to make sure your kids love to learn.  For some kids, this means NO Latin, for some kids, this means ALL Latin.  What I have gleaned from this forum is that a complete, "serious" education can take many forms.  Sometimes it does mean backing off a little bit to avoid a complete turn off towards anything academic.  Anyone who posts on this forum and anything they post can be taken quite seriously.  It just depends on what you need to be doing for your kids at different points in their career, even if it is not as originally envisioned. :001_smile:   

 

 

[Mrs Twain]

Just popping back in to say thank you to everyone who shared their thoughts here...I am new(ish) to the boards, and yes, my kids are only 8 and 6, but I've been reading and studying education for a long time. I was an English professor before I had my kids, and I'm passionate about literature, history, and educational theory. Makes my brain happy:) I love thinking about these things, so thanks for thinking along!

 

The best two books I have read about educational theory are The Knowledge Deficit (Hirsch) and Why Don't Students Like School (Willingham)  Have you read those?

[TerriMI]

 

Where do you suggest they go? Where does one find the specific tools useful for teaching in this classical way? Could you make some suggestions? I am inspired by your posts, here and in past threads, and I agree that specifics are helpful.

In order to keep close to rigorous and very classical education, the way students were taught before Dewey, go to the most rigorous grammar, Latin and rhetoric curriculum.  They're out there.  What I have found and used are Shurley Grammar, using level 6 or 7 in one year, Mary Daly's diagramming book, Harvey's Grammar, Classical Writing, Memoria Press' Traditional Logic, and their First through Forth Forms Latin, Henle Latin, and Veritas Press' Omnibus Great Books courses.  My four children were very well prepared for all language needs in college and scored very, very well on the language parts of their college entrance exams.  They also are well spoken and love dialectics.  PM if you might like to discuss a FB group where you could ask more questions.

[Hedgehogs4]

I would say we are relaxed only in the sense that I have learned not to stress terribly when my plans get derailed. We have a definite routine, employ a certain amount of rigor, learn things like great books and Latin, and sentence diagramming, but I also have learned to let go of what I think must be part of a classical education according to what "they" say should be done. 

 

Everyone in the world has a plan for how things should be done and the best way, but you have your kids and your life. It will not work their way for everyone, which is one of the major reasons we homeschool anyway, right?

 

[abcmommy]

In order to keep close to rigorous and very classical education, the way students were taught before Dewey, go to the most rigorous grammar, Latin and rhetoric curriculum.  They're out there.  What I have found and used are Shurley Grammar, using level 6 or 7 in one year, Mary Daly's diagramming book, Harvey's Grammar, Classical Writing, Memoria Press' Traditional Logic, and their First through Forth Forms Latin, Henle Latin, and Veritas Press' Omnibus Great Books courses.  My four children were very well prepared for all language needs in college and scored very, very well on the language parts of their college entrance exams.  They also are well spoken and love dialectics.  PM if you might like to discuss a FB group where you could ask more questions.

ironically my relaxed homeschooled child has a perfect verbal score on the PSAT and all we do is read a lot of book when they are little.  Then they go to highschool.

 

Just saying there is no formula here.

[TerriMI]

ironically my relaxed homeschooled child has a perfect verbal score on the PSAT and all we do is read a lot of book when they are little.  Then they go to highschool.

 

Just saying there is no formula here.

 

 

Thanks for your reply!  : )

 

I am sincerely glad that your child has done so well. I am happy for both of you. Congratulations!

 

I am not saying that there is no room for intuition or ability.  I have one child that just might have done the same.  What the study of grammar and syntax did was to give her insight into the why's of what she knew intuitively.  One of the things that this caused was a stronger confidence in what and how she wrote.  She knew for certain that she wasn't just "making things up" in order to fill up space on a page in order to fulfill a written assignment.  There was little to no "fog."  It also prepared her so that researching ideas that she was interested in was a breeze.  She had MUCH practice in understanding even difficult things that she read so that her honor's thesis in college was doable.  All this has prepared her for her master's study in her field.  

 

Tests are not even close to the most important thing about teaching grammar and syntax.  It makes for a better, more full education.

[abcmommy]

I don't think I understand the connection you are drawing between grammar study and research.  I certain do not understand why any child would feel foggy or like they are making things up to fill a page when doing a writing assignment.  My weaker english student does not seem to have these issues,  and while he had some basic grammar instruction thru both a lit rich curricula and a dedicated grammar book (used with the generally relaxed approach we tend to have) he thrives in his field of interest which is science- requiring quite a lot of research and writing.

 

Again, my point is that no one's N of one or two kids is really equal to a proven strategy for sucess.  I certainly would never presume to foist my approach on others as somehow superior.

 

If you want to know what I think is most effective, its probably take two parents with a nice high iq and give them ample resources to rear a kid in a low stress environment with many books and exposure to both higher order thinking skills and solid naturally used colorful vocabulary.  I think if you hit those high water marks with any consistency you probably cant fail to produce a well rounded mind, whether you drill grammar 2 hours a day for 8 or 9 years or not.

[texasmama]

If you want to know what I think is most effective, its probably take two parents with a nice high iq and give them ample resources to rear a kid in a low stress environment with many books and exposure to both higher order thinking skills and solid naturally used colorful vocabulary.  I think if you hit those high water marks with any consistency you probably cant fail to produce a well rounded mind, whether you drill grammar 2 hours a day for 8 or 9 years or not.

There is so much truth to this.  Add an absence of any learning disabilities to the equation.

[Renny30]

I instituted homework this year for the first time. LOL!!

 

That makes us officially unrelaxed.

 

I call it afterschool work and it's even in a folder that he has to turn in. It's the independent work that I don't need to supervise.

 

The idea of unschooling would send me for a bottle of wine. I have to have curriculum even if it's something I create myself. I do let my son decide what we're going to do for unit studies and we have a great deal of fun doing those.

 

I have learned a great deal of patience and would not consider our homeschool rigorous as I don't like to use that word when I describe anything I do with my children, but I like a schedule and I try hard to stick to it. I overschedule on my planner and since it's online, I move things around when we don't get to it. I'm a pro at forgiving myself for not getting things done in the day, so that's the relaxed aspect of our homeschool. 

[Corraleno]

ironically my relaxed homeschooled child has a perfect verbal score on the PSAT and all we do is read a lot of book when they are little.  Then they go to highschool.

 

Just saying there is no formula here.

 

:iagree:

 

The daughter of a (former WTMer) friend unschooled English all the way through high school — just lots and lots of reading and discussing really deep, classic literature. No formal grammar (although she did self-teach Latin), no years of dictation and narration, no writing curriculum, no assigned essays. Perfect 800s on the Reading & Writing portions of the SAT, and straight As on every college essay so far. Would that approach work for every kid? Definitely not. Was it the perfect approach for her? Clearly it was!

 

My son's study of formal grammar consisted of a 4-wk Lukeion summer intensive. No narration or dictation or copy work. No writing curriculum, no grammar curriculum, no vocabulary worksheets, no assigned essays. He learned to write by reading lots of college-level books, watching hundreds of Teaching Company lectures, and hours and hours of deep discussion, all of which gave him a clear understanding of how to structure an argument and what good academic writing looks like. His writing shows a rich vocabulary, complex and varied sentence structure, and a clear concept of what a thesis is (and how to support it). In fact, my main criticism of his writing is that his sentence structure is sometimes too complex — which I blame on years of translating paragraph-long Greek sentences with multiple layers of embedded clauses!

 

Obviously that approach is not going to work for every kid — it certainly wouldn't work with my daughter. She's a creative, artsy kid, into art and music and dance and animation, so she will learn to write in that (creative) context, versus the academic/linguistic context in which my son learned. Still "relaxed," though.   :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TerriMI]

I don't think I understand the connection you are drawing between grammar study and research.  

Thanks for your comments...love talking and thinking about this.  

 

What I was emphasizing here was the _ease_ of the research.  Because she did not have the difficulties of decoding and indeed because she was absolutely confident in the meaning of every sentence of what she read, there was little loss of time in getting to the connections of ideas.  It was easy to form connections as she was beginning research because there was no stumbling with meaning.

 

 She also had little to no difficulty with the writing not only because since grammar and syntax were second nature to her, but because she was absolutely sure of the "correctness" of her sentences.  She could edit with ease for clarity by analyzing the job of each of the words and the pattern of each the sentences on command and even as she was writing. 

 

This left time for the more important focus of getting to the ideas.  

 

Grammar and syntax study had given her confidence and surety in understanding and communicating meaning.

 

The other idea about better education refers to the idea that understanding the underpinnings of "facts", ideas, subjects of study, etc. is better than having a working but cursory understanding of the same.

  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Long time poster here who has been homeschooling for 13 years now.  (And I know that puts me more in the middle category of longevity compared to some posters!)  I encourage some posters to relax in the sense of "lightening up" when they are talking about six hour days with a six year old.  I encourage some posters to see homeschooling as a job when they are talking about not having gotten to math in three months.  You can't read either advice and make an assumption of what kind of a homeschooler I am.

 

 I hear some posters talk about being rigorous and there seems to be a braggy tone to it - that they are better homeschoolers than I am because they have done xyz.  Perhaps.  I hear some posters talk about being relaxed (in an academic sense) and there seems to be a braggy tone to it - that they are much better homeschoolers or perhaps parents than I am because they have not done xyz.  Perhaps.  

 

All I know is that I have chosen an educational method that is especially suited for teaching the students you have.  And I embrace that.  My roots are CM.  I got more into traditional classical homeschooling for ds' highschool because that fit him best but am now swinging around to more of a CM approach (which does overlap in some ways) for dd - because that fits her best.  I don't compare myself to others.  I do learn from others.  I may learn what some others do and decide it is not for us but I don't look down on it - I just recognize that it is not suited for my kids.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

PS - sometimes when older homeschoolers tell moms with  young kids to relax on this board it is because the younger moms do not understand developmental levels and are expecting too much if their child fits developmental norms.  (Of course not all kids do).  

[Mrs Twain]

The most useful aspect of this board for me personally in regard to improving the rigor of our homeschool has been reading the grade level (What are you doing for _-grade? threads) and the skills/goals threads (What are your goals/What skills does your child need by the end of 6th/8th/high school). I have added and improved on many of our subject areas by reading these threads.