Changes in driver's education

[Pegasus]

My teens have recently taken a driver's education course. I know that driver's education has changed since I took it in the dark ages, like advising the 9 and 3 hand positions on the steering wheel because of the air bag (instead of the 10 and 2 that I was taught). However, I was surprised and don't necessarily agree with some of things being taught.  I'd like some feedback if anyone else has had a student take such a course in recent years and if they were taught the same things:

 

1. It is not enough to stop before the painted bar/line on the road before a stop sign or red light, you must stop far enough back that you can still see the line.  Similarly, you should stop behind a car at an intersection far enough back that you can see their back tires meeting the road.  My DDs and I are all shorter than average so we'd have to stop sooner than someone taller; doesn't seem very consistent between drivers and a line of stopped cars would take up way more space on the road, possibly interferring with intersections further back.

 

2. This is the one that I'm actually upset about. They were told that on a highway or interstate with several lanes, they should drive in the far left lane.  The idea being that the far right lane would have cars merging and exiting and the middle lanes would have cars on both sides of you that could come into your lane.  Since they are also being taught to drive no faster than the speed limit (which, of course, is the right thing to teach) I think these students are being set up for tremendous road rage as they park themselves in the far left lane driving 54 mph on a 55 mph highway/interstate where the average speed limit easily exceeds 70 mph.

 

Any thoughts?

Pegasus

[In The Great White North]

#1 - I'd like to see the actual statute because I don't believe it is the law.

 

#2 is actually illegal in some states.  Here's a list:

 

http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/right.html

[cbollin]

1,  in my state, the state issued driver's manual says different info on the stop line.

the rule for stopping behind other vehicle is stop so there is a gap and you're not tailgating. The rule of thumb to know how to judge is you should be able to see the other car's license plate, or back tires.   so not exactly, but not too different.  I'm short too.  I get it  :)

 

2. that's not encouraged in my state by the rules in the state manual.  and there are times you can't.  HOV lane hours might be one of those times. so. nope. that shouldn't be taught where I live.

 

 

[TN Mama]

My kids aren't driving age yet, but when I took driver's ed many years ago, my instructor also taught me that I should be able to see the rear tires of the car in front of me at a stop.

As far as teaching them to drive in the left lane... well, that is just...  :confused1:

[Butter]

#1 That's what I was taught.  I think that it was taught that way because new drivers can't always tell where the line or car is exactly in front of them.  By telling them to stop where they can see the line or car they are definitely safe.  Over time we all learned where we could stop not seeing the line or car tires and still be safe.

 

#2 This is 100% wrong.  Far left lane is for passing/very fast vehicles.  Very bad advice.

[Ms.Ivy]

#2 is illegal in California.  I could understand using the number 2 lane of a 6-lane freeway to avoid people merging, but definitely not the far left lane!  

[Tree Frog]

Well, both of those would explain much of the driving in my city! However, I know the left lanes here are supposed to be for passing.

 

I get very frustrated when I see so much distance between stopped cars because it backs traffic up significantly (In some cases dangerously.) I was taught to pull close enough to match the front of my hood with the bottom of the tires of the vehicle in front of me. My mother worked for the police department for several years and, based on what she learned there, has been telling my kids they should stop way back in case they're rear ended. That way, even if they're pushed forward, they won't rear end the vehicle in front of them. I think at some point my kids are going to have to listen to what everyone tells them and, as they gain experience, choose what makes the most sense.

[Junie]

1.  I stay back pretty far at stop lights because I can't stand to smell car exhaust.  With tractor trailers, I stay back so that I can see their mirrors.

 

2.  I agree that this is probably unsafe.

[Butter]

 It also leaves you room to pull forward if you can see in your rearview mirror that the car coming up behind you is in danger of year ending you.

 

The lady who I took driver's ed from always called that "up your keester for Easter."  She was quite a character.

[MysteryJen]

#1 was taught to my kids. I understand the reasons behind it, but it seriously creates gridlock during rush hour, not to mention green arrow left turn cycles. It drives me insane when the cars ahead of me leave room for two extra cars and I can't get through the light which is timed for 4 cars. I was taught to be able to see the back tires of the car ahead of me touching the ground and to keep my foot on the brake and check my mirrors while waiting for a light.

#2 is illegal on most highways in my state.

[73349]

What state do you live in?

 

Who is running driver's ed? Is this just some brave soul with a clean driving record, or someone with a special qualification?

 

I was also told #1 when taking driver's ed, and simply adjusted so a tall person like my instructor would be able to see the line; I still could not. :) But at least having tires behind the line is useful here, as the road is often wet and the paint is slippery.

 

#2 might be dangerous.

[Tsuga]

My teens have recently taken a driver's education course. I know that driver's education has changed since I took it in the dark ages, like advising the 9 and 3 hand positions on the steering wheel because of the air bag (instead of the 10 and 2 that I was taught). However, I was surprised and don't necessarily agree with some of things being taught.  I'd like some feedback if anyone else has had a student take such a course in recent years and if they were taught the same things:

 

1. It is not enough to stop before the painted bar/line on the road before a stop sign or red light, you must stop far enough back that you can still see the line.  Similarly, you should stop behind a car at an intersection far enough back that you can see their back tires meeting the road.  My DDs and I are all shorter than average so we'd have to stop sooner than someone taller; doesn't seem very consistent between drivers and a line of stopped cars would take up way more space on the road, possibly interferring with intersections further back.

 

2. This is the one that I'm actually upset about. They were told that on a highway or interstate with several lanes, they should drive in the far left lane.  The idea being that the far right lane would have cars merging and exiting and the middle lanes would have cars on both sides of you that could come into your lane.  Since they are also being taught to drive no faster than the speed limit (which, of course, is the right thing to teach) I think these students are being set up for tremendous road rage as they park themselves in the far left lane driving 54 mph on a 55 mph highway/interstate where the average speed limit easily exceeds 70 mph.

 

Any thoughts?

Pegasus

 

Not in our state!

 

For (1), that would have me halfway back to the next light. Just, no. You need to stop at the line so you can see the whole crosswalk.

 

For (2), absolutely not. You are supposed to merge left when there is an onramp, if there is heavy traffic in the right lane and merging left gives people space to merge. In that case, you would be in the middle lane or POSSIBLY left lane on a two-lane highway. I do see people do this and do it myself occasionally. It is appropriate provided you get back as far right as possible when not passing. You are not to "hang left" for the entirety of the freeway just in case there is an onramp. That's absurd.

 

Also, yes, it is technically illegal to go slower than the flow of traffic in the left lane. You are not going to get pulled over for going 55-60, but at 54, you might actually get a ticket for obstructing traffic particularly at certain times when people are driving quickly to avoid rush-hour traffic (like 6:30 - 7:30 either a.m. or p.m.)

 

http://www.king5.com/story/news/traffic/2015/04/20/left-lane-campers-bill/26081439/

 

Is this in a manual or did someone say it? If the instructor said it, I'd consider finding a new instructor.

[Tsuga]

This is what I learned, and do, and will teach my kids. I was taught to leave enough space that you could fit a small sedan (like a Civic) between you and the car ahead. If everyone did it, it would prevent most of the chain reaction rear end collisions that happen. It also leaves you room to pull forward if you can see in your rearview mirror that the car coming up behind you is in danger of year ending you.

 

That's different, though. Seeing someone's tires is still easier than seeing the line on the asphalt because of the angle. To see the line, with a car like mine you'd easily be a full two Mini Cooper lengths back. To see the tires, you need just four or five feet, even in my tiny car with my short self.

 

And while you don't want to rear end anybody, it's not clear that the extra space to see the white line is necessary. Who benefits from that? It reduces visibility for the driver when making a turn and doesn't make it any safer for people in the intersection.

[MEmama]

I learned #1 in drivers Ed in the late 80's. But cars had better visibility back then (I'm short too).

 

#2 is just dangerous. That's what a middle lane is for if there is one, but never the fast lane. I can't imagine someone pulling that in Boston any time of the day! Eek!

 

I think I'd actually have words with the instructor over that one. And make sure my child didn't obey him.

[MEmama]

Just the other day DS and I were just discussing how much driving instruction must have changed since I was 15. We were wondering how they deal with backup cameras, auto braking, etc? He's planning ahead, so any insight would be helpful!

 

Do they still teach how to turn your head to physically look around you, or do they default to advising backup cameras? Is CPR still taught? Do they talk about using --or NOT using--gps? Is technology while driving part of the discussion?

 

Insatiably curious 12 year old minds want to know...

[elegantlion]

#1 I wasn't taught - learned to drive in the dark ages - but I do it when traffic isn't bad. When I'm in the bigger cities I don't leave so much space. 

 

#2 is asinine and probably illegal in my state. Left lane - passing, right lane - driving. In my state, you're also supposed to move over for people stopped on the interstate. I mostly drive on 4 lane (total) interstates. If I'm on a larger one (6-8 lanes) I usually start in the first or second lane to the right as I generally drive the speed limit. I rarely drive in rush hour. 

[Pegasus]

I appreciate all the feedback!  Glad to hear that everyone agrees that #2 is just wrong.  It was said verbally, not in writing, so it is always possible that my DDs just misheard/misunderstood.  Trust me, they are getting plenty of driving time with me and DH in addition to the formal driver's education class so we can correct any of these oddball driving tips.

 

Interesting that many folks are reporting learning #1.  I can see the extra space coming in handy if someone is about to or does rear end your car.  

 

We are in Tennessee. I haven't look it up in the official driving guide or the state laws. That's a good idea.

[idnib]

#2 is illegal in California.  I could understand using the number 2 lane of a 6-lane freeway to avoid people merging, but definitely not the far left lane!  

 

In CA lanes are counted from the median outward, so if you are on a 6-lane freeway in the second lane from the right, you're in the #5 lane. Just FYI.  :)

[Mom22ns]

#1 Many stoplights are on sensors here and will not be triggered if you stop that far back. Stop behind the line and leave reasonable space between cars.

 

#2 Is illegal in my state. The left lane is a passing lane. I have a friend who was ticketed for this just recently. The policeman said she'd been in the left lane for 5 miles and while she had passed other cars during that time, she had ample opportunity to move to the right. I do agree that on a highway with many lanes, the far right is mostly for those entering and exiting, but the far left is for passing and sometimes commuter traffic. 

[shawthorne44]

dp

[shawthorne44]

#1 will get you a mailed red light ticket.  Ask me how I know   :huh:  :confused1:

 

Ok, I will tell you.  I got one, and I was venting to my DH.  The ticket was for running a red light but the photo clearly shows me sitting there several feet behind the line (where I could see it).   That hadn't been intentional but I was just too lazy to scoot forward when the car in front of me turned.  DH said what their logic was.  I was unimpressed so I don't remember.  

[fairfarmhand]

Perhaps your child misheard. Typically, it's polite to get over to the left if you see cars trying to merge onto the freeway and you can easily do so, moving back into right lane after the person has successfully merged. But to do so at rush hour would just be stupid.

[Junie]

I tried to pay attention to how much space I leave between vehicles when I pull to a red light and I noticed this:  I stop far enough back that if the car in front of me becomes disabled, I am able to pull around the car without backing up.

[Little Women]

In the driver's ed course, the instructor will give a lot of verbal information that's not law but is meant to help the kids drive more safely.  I can definitely understand the point about driving in the left lane--it is a lot easier to not be in the lane with constant merges and turns.   But I'm not the slowest driver on the road, either, and the kids are!     Once they are good drivers, in states where it's not illegal, it makes sense to not be in the farthest right lane.

 

[TrixieB]

#1 will get you a mailed red light ticket.  Ask me how I know   :huh:  :confused1:

 

Ok, I will tell you.  I got one, and I was venting to my DH.  The ticket was for running a red light but the photo clearly shows me sitting there several feet behind the line (where I could see it).   That hadn't been intentional but I was just too lazy to scoot forward when the car in front of me turned.  DH said what their logic was.  I was unimpressed so I don't remember.  

 

Did you get the ticket waived?  I can't see how they could give you a ticket for running a red light if no part of your car had entered the intersection. :confused1:

[AngieW in Texas]

I know that Driver Ed in a Box tells students to stop where they can still see the white line on the pavement in front of them. Their rationale is that if you are rear-ended, your car won't be pushed into the intersection because you still have space in front of you.  I don't remember if they said to stop far enough behind another car to be able to see their tires on the road, but they definitely said to stop far enough behind that you can pull over into the next lane without having to back up (in case the car in front of you stalls).

 

I told my kids to take these things with a grain of salt. At first, you need to see the line until you get a good idea of where the front of the car ends. Once you get to that point, you can go up to where the car is still behind the line but you can't actually see it anymore.  The same with how far to be behind another vehicle. Once you get to where you know how much space you need to pull into the next lane, that is a good distance to stop. It also does protect against chain reactions to some degree. 

 

There are signs all over the interstate here that say the left lane is for passing only. You can get ticketed for driving in the left lane too long. I know that Driver Ed in a Box recommends that students get out of the right (merge) lane as soon as they get on the freeway, but I don't remember them ever saying to stick with the left lane. I recommend to my kids that on a 3-lane, they stick with the middle unless they are passing or are stuck behind a vehicle they can't see around or are about to get off. You definitely need to get over in the right lane in plenty of time to be able to easily exit the freeway.

[The Girls' Mom]

I appreciate all the feedback!  Glad to hear that everyone agrees that #2 is just wrong.  It was said verbally, not in writing, so it is always possible that my DDs just misheard/misunderstood.  Trust me, they are getting plenty of driving time with me and DH in addition to the formal driver's education class so we can correct any of these oddball driving tips.

 

Interesting that many folks are reporting learning #1.  I can see the extra space coming in handy if someone is about to or does rear end your car.  

 

We are in Tennessee. I haven't look it up in the official driving guide or the state laws. That's a good idea.

 

If driver's ed in TN is teaching them to hang out in the left lane, that certainly explains a lot of the driving around here! lol.  

 

I'm pretty sure it isn't in the manual.  My 15 year olds love to inform me of every minor driving infraction I make now, so I'm sure they'd have "corrected" me if that was in the TN manual.

[elegantlion]

Another point on this, IIRC, is that if you are rear-ended and you get pushed into the car in front of you, you may be marked "partially at fault" on your insurance claims. I *think* I'm remembering that right from my underwriting days. It could affect your insurance or rates depending upon other claims or activity.*

I know that Driver Ed in a Box tells students to stop where they can still see the white line on the pavement in front of them. Their rationale is that if you are rear-ended, your car won't be pushed into the intersection because you still have space in front of you.  I don't remember if they said to stop far enough behind another car to be able to see their tires on the road, but they definitely said to stop far enough behind that you can pull over into the next lane without having to back up (in case the car in front of you stalls).

 

 

 

*I am not an insurance agent, nor do I play one online - please check with your agent for accurate information.  :hat:

[shawthorne44]

Did you get the ticket waived?  I can't see how they could give you a ticket for running a red light if no part of your car had entered the intersection. :confused1:

 

No, but thinking about it now, I don't think I paid it either.  

[Tree Frog]

This is what I learned, and do, and will teach my kids. I was taught to leave enough space that you could fit a small sedan (like a Civic) between you and the car ahead. If everyone did it, it would prevent most of the chain reaction rear end collisions that happen. It also leaves you room to pull forward if you can see in your rearview mirror that the car coming up behind you is in danger of year ending you.

 

I'm not so convinced it's safer to leave so much space between vehicles. It might save the individual driver, but because the traffic takes up significantly more space, the driver at the end of the line might find there's very little stopping room. If there are half a dozen cars lined up at a stoplight with so much space between, fewer vehicles will move through the green light. I find that very frustrating! At the middle school in the pick up lane, so much space was left between cars that the stopped (waiting) line of cars extended out into the street, causing the through traffic to significantly slow down or stop. If everyone had pulled close enough to leave just enough room to pull around the vehicle in front of them, there wouldn't have been traffic on the street.

 

Leaving so much space also encourages people to move to a faster lane, then cut across traffic at their turn or exit because there is lots of space between vehicles.

 

I have seen people leave 3-4 lengths of my van in front of them. I don't know if that's due to the devices they may have been using, if they didn't pull up all the way when they stopped, or if they usually stop so far back. I don't see that as safe. I've frequently been tempted to pull in front of them.

[RegGuheert]

1)  It was a LONG time ago and I have no idea what I was taught! :tongue_smilie: Still, since we have two boys with learner's permits I have an opinion! :001_smile:  As far as what to do with the white line, I recommend that they stop behind it (NOT necessarily seeing it) if they are at a stoplight.  If they are at a stop sign, the rules are different, particularly if the cross street does not stop.  In that case, first stop behind the line to avoid hitting any pedestrians.  Then I teach them to gradually creep up to the edge of the intersection as they look both ways for cars.  This is because there are some (one in particular!) intersections in this area where you CANNOT safely enter the road you are turning into until you go over or even past that line.  As long as they have stopped behind the line, they should not be liable for a ticket.  Finally, most intersections around here have NO white line.  In that case, it takes some work to help them to learn to stop close enough to safely see what they need to see without being in the intersection themselves.  (When he was learning to drive, DS25 stopped a bit too far back at the end of our street (no line) and then proceeded to make a left turn.  He almost got hit by a police car traveling about 50 MPH! :eek: )

 

With regard to how far to stop behind another car, I usually leave about one car's length.  The exception is if I am in the left lane and there is a left -turn lane to my left (or if I am in the right lane and there is a right-turn lane on my right, I will move up *very* close to the car in front of me to allow as much access to the turn lane as possible.  (I like it when other do that for me, so I try to return the favor!)

 

2)  Driving the speed limit in the left lane is a good idea if you are wanting to get shot!