Very rarely do I consider changing a political position ...

[LG Gone Wild]

but I learned something during Fred Thompson's speech. It was when he gave account of John McCain's POW experience. I didn't know that story. Well, I knew of that story but I had never heard the detailed account. I was floored. I am not a huge McCain supporter but after I heard that account, I understand what many of supporters meant by his character. If you haven't heard it all, you really should even if you are not a supporter. Not the whole RNC speil, but just that part of the speech. Not to rah rah McCain but to hear a veteran's story.

 

It got me thinking about a coworker that's a VV. All that he went through changed him when he got back. He did remain married to his wife but it was because she was a saint. He's okay now, but he wasn't back then.

 

I also now understood McCain's position about torture. I didn't agree with him but I might now.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

It's a moving story. I wasn't aware of it all either.

[Jugglin'5]

 

I also now understood McCain's position about torture. I didn't agree with him but I might now.

 

This is one of the few "mavericky" positions that McCain takes against most of the rest of the party that I agree with.

[cathmom]

what is his position?

[LG Gone Wild]

what is his position?

 

He is against water boarding (for sure) and increasing restrictions on interrogation techniques (I think).

[Caraway]

The POW part of the speech - AMAZING!

[sleepy]

but I learned something during Fred Thompson's speech. It was when he gave account of John McCain's POW experience. I didn't know that story. Well, I knew of that story but I had never heard the detailed account. I was floored. I am not a huge McCain supporter but after I heard that account, I understand what many of supporters meant by his character.

 

:iagree: What an amazing story!

[lovemyboys]

but I learned something during Fred Thompson's speech. It was when he gave account of John McCain's POW experience. I didn't know that story. Well, I knew of that story but I had never heard the detailed account. I was floored. I am not a huge McCain supporter but after I heard that account, I understand what many of supporters meant by his character. If you haven't heard it all, you really should even if you are not a supporter.

 

I also now understood McCain's position about torture. I didn't agree with him but I might now.

 

I heard it years ago. It's hard to hear, but amazing. There's also a beautiful autobiography by another POW something like "In Love and War" that's written by the pow and his wife, alternating chapters, really powerful story.

 

I've always been impressed by McCain's character. What's the old saying, that the true test of character is how you behave in the toughest of circumstances? Is he perfect? No.

 

But I do think the man has a depth of character that comes from having lived through and survived the worst that a human can endure. He's got a real foundation in what matters, where his priorities are. And I've got to say, that in his professional life, he has taken a stand on things that wouldn't guarantee him popularity or success, when he felt that those were the right choices. I think it speaks well that so many of his colleagues have a very high measure of respect for him, regardless of their own politics. There's an underlying trust.....

[GSMP]

Here is the link to Fred's speech if you missed it.....

 

 

It is very powerful.

[abreakfromlife]

I had never really heard much of it either. I loved that Fred was the one to tell the story, b/c they are such close friends. You know his voice cracking and sounding like he was going to cry was real for his friend.

[WyoSylvia]

... I knew of that story but I had never heard the detailed account. I was floored.

 

I watched it on Fox news and afterwards some commentator said something to the effect that ''everybody knows all that." I'm with you, dh and I were heart-sick to hear all that he went through.

[Scarlett]

My stupid computer won't let me watch videos easily....I was just curious if there was some new information about his POW experience...or the highlights of what you guys found amazing?

[WyoSylvia]

I was reading through it to try and quote parts of it for you but, frankly, I knew I couldn't do it justice by breaking it up. Here is a link, the POW story starts a little less than half-way down the page.

[Marie in Oh]

is that you'll never hear the story from his lips. Vey common of POW's and really of War Veterens in general. My dad was a WWII vet and never once told me a story. He was Navy and his ship was struck by bombs and he spent 48 hours in the waters near Indonesia. But never once did he tell me any of it. I like that kind of humility that I see in McCain and I saw in my Dad. They honestly don't feel like heros, but they are.

[LG Gone Wild]

My stupid computer won't let me watch videos easily....I was just curious if there was some new information about his POW experience...or the highlights of what you guys found amazing?

 

part of the impact of the story is thompson's delivery. it wasn't dramatic, just a plain recital of events as they happened...and it just went on and on.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I admire John McCain's service, but some of what Fred Thompson said last night was simply untrue, as often happens from those on both sides of the aisle.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/688/

[LisaNY]

I watched it on Fox news and afterwards some commentator said something to the effect that ''everybody knows all that." I'm with you, dh and I were heart-sick to hear all that he went through.

 

What a dopey thing for that person to say. :glare: I had not heard the whole story until the other night.

[Jami]

This is one of the few "mavericky" positions that McCain takes against most of the rest of the party that I agree with.

 

Jugglin' (or anyone else with handy information) I don't suppose you have a link on McCain's position on torture. This is one area dh and I are butting heads (not cause one of us is for and one of us is against, but how it compares with other pro-life issues) and I'd like to understand McCain's view.

 

Thanks,

 

Jami

[Jugglin'5]

I don't know where to find his official position. Here's an excerpt of an interview he gave to 60 Minutes during the primary. I also remember him arguing with Romney during one of the primary debates.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/07/60minutes/main3917681_page2.shtml

 

As a naval aviator during Vietnam he walked away from an accident that killed 134 others. He was shot down on his 23rd combat mission. The enemy offered to let him go because he was the son of an admiral but McCain demanded other Americans be released first, so he remained as a prisoner of war five and a half years. Because of torture, today, he can lift his arm only so high.

 

Pelley asked him about American interrogation methods today. Asked if water boarding is torture, McCain said, "Sure. Yes. Without a doubt."

 

"So the United States has been torturing POWs?" Pelley asked.

 

"Yes. Scott, we prosecuted Japanese war criminals after World War II.

And one of the charges brought against them, for which they were convicted, was that they water-boarded Americans," McCain said.

 

"How did we lose our way?" Pelley asked.

 

"I don't know the answer to that. I think one of the failures maybe was not to listen more to our military leadership, including people like General Colin Powell, on this issue," McCain said.

 

"In your town hall meetings you're fond of saying that you will follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of hell," Pelley remarked. "With respect, following him to the gates of hell is easy. What's hard is putting several divisions of U.S. forces on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan. What are you willing to do?"

 

"Well, the first thing is not tell Osama bin Laden what I'm gonna do. But I'll get him," McCain vowed.

 

 

Jugglin' (or anyone else with handy information) I don't suppose you have a link on McCain's position on torture. This is one area dh and I are butting heads (not cause one of us is for and one of us is against, but how it compares with other pro-life issues) and I'd like to understand McCain's view.

 

Thanks,

 

Jami

[Penny from Tenny]

I had never fully heard the story either and it does help you understand where his strength of character comes from and why he doesn't accept status quo.

 

I also didn't know that the torture he endured is why he can't raise his arms above his shoulders. Now I understand why he has an odd sort of wave when you see him. He is still suffering the consequences of the torture to this day.

[Jugglin'5]

Here is some more about his opposition to torture in the Senate. I know it is from Wikipedia, but you can follow the links if you want to source it.

 

Owing to his time as a POW, McCain has been recognized for his sensitivity to the detention and interrogation of detainees in the War on Terror. In October 2005, McCain introduced the McCain Detainee Amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill for 2005, and the Senate voted 90–9 to support the amendment.[169] It prohibits inhumane treatment of prisoners, including prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, by confining military interrogations to the techniques in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Interrogation. Although Bush had threatened to veto the bill if McCain's amendment was included,[170][171] This stance, among others, led to McCain being named by Time magazine in 2006 as one of America's 10 Best Senators.[172] McCain voted in February 2008 against a bill containing a ban on waterboarding,[173] which provision was later narrowly passed and vetoed by Bush. However, the bill in question contained other provisions to which McCain objected, and his spokesman stated: "This wasn't a vote on waterboarding. This was a vote on applying the standards of the [Army] field manual to CIA personnel."[173] the President announced in December 2005 that he accepted McCain's terms and would "make it clear to the world that this government does not torture and that we adhere to the international convention of torture, whether it be here at home or abroad".

[Jami]

Thanks, Jugglin'

 

 

I motivated myself to do a little searching around too. Found what I was looking for and your links helped. :001_smile:

[TravelingChris]

[quote name=Marie in Oh;

is that you'll never hear the story from his lips. Vey common of POW's and really of War Veterens in general. My dad was a WWII vet and never once told me a story. He was Navy and his ship was struck by bombs and he spent 48 hours in the waters near Indonesia. But never once did he tell me any of it. I like that kind of humility that I see in McCain and I saw in my Dad. They honestly don't feel like heros' date=' but they are.

 

 

That is it exactly. My father was in action in WWII. He was in a tough battle in Monte Cassino where the enemy was holding the monastery and the Allies were trying to gain that position. My father had a grenade thrown on his back (for which he had a deep scar all the rest of his life) and went on to lead the charge up even with the horrible injury. (He survived because of the pack he was wearing). He never talked about it and I only knew what my mom told me and later, what I read in a book of WWII history. In the years that I knew him, he was a very peaceful man and it was hard to imagine him leading a charge.

[Jill- OK]

I admire John McCain's service, but some of what Fred Thompson said last night was simply untrue, as often happens from those on both sides of the aisle.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/688/

 

The article you linked, with the blurb from McCain's book, says the same thing Fred Thompson does about the first few days; he refused their offers and demands for information.

 

Did you just include this to add the later part about McCain giving up information/trying to bargain, because Fred Thompson didn't? I don't see how leaving out part equates with 'simply untrue'. (I thought I read the linked article pretty carefully...but maybe I'm missing something? I haven't read McCain's book or seen Thompson's speech, FWIW)

[lovemyboys]

I admire John McCain's service, but some of what Fred Thompson said last night was simply untrue, as often happens from those on both sides of the aisle.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/688/

 

What part of the torturing would you be able to withstand before you cried out and gave up something?

 

These men were trained on name rank serial number. That was it. They were taught to survive, to live for one more day. They truly believed that they would dishonor themselves, their country, their fellow troops if they gave up any info.

 

I'm sorry but your post and this link give me chills. This is just ugly elitism. To be looking at someone's horrific life experience and nitpicking the minute details. Would you tear apart a holocaust survivor's experience because they neglected to tell you some detail that you deemed more pertinent than the very fact that they survived?

 

Yes, Thompson compressed the account -- what would you have him do? Go through it day by day...and on the 15th day his arms were broken again, and on the 50th day his ribs were kicked in, and on the 127th day, he saw daylight for the first time but had all his fingernails pulled off?

 

He survived, and he did so in an honorable way, and it is a testament to his character whether you agree with his politics or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's time to put away the light saber on this one, ok?

 

 

 

 

ETA: It's better to hear it in their words than mine. I don't think compressing the story changed the facts. I think what Thompson said was correct, just compressed.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

it is a testament to his character whether you agree with his politics or not.

 

I admire his service to our country. As the daughter of a Korean War vet, I choose not to rely on his POW stories, but on his record in regards to veteran's affairs to judge his politics.

 

Just some of what he voted against:

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00263

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00040

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00041

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00098

 

While I respect the rights of others to disagree with additional funding for programs that help our veterans, it is McCain's record that I make my decisions on, not his war stories.

[Marie in Oh]

That I am sure that JM felt was unecessary. Just becasue he isn't a spend thrift when it comes to veterens affairs, does not mean he doesn't have the best interest of the veterens at heart. My dad would have voted down any excess spending if it meant raising taxes of all Americans, despite the good it seemed it would do for veterens or anyone else. I am sure JM viewed it as unnecessary spending. That doesn't lesson his service record, nor his political one.

 

 

I admire his service to our country. As the daughter of a Korean War vet, I choose not to rely on his POW stories, but on his record in regards to veteran's affairs to judge his politics.

 

Just some of what he voted against:

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00263

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00040

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00041

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00098

 

While I respect the rights of others to disagree with additional funding for programs that help our veterans, it is McCain's record that I make my decisions on, not his war stories.

[lovemyboys]

I admire his service to our country. As the daughter of a Korean War vet, I choose not to rely on his POW stories, but on his record in regards to veteran's affairs to judge his politics.

 

 

 

That's cool.

 

What I was reacting to was the wording and the link that were calling in to question the veracity of what he went through. Some of the political strategists and media commentators have been making similar comments and I do think that it's a really unattractive elitism. We in this country are fortunate to rarely encounter the kind of horror that some of these men lived through. That shouldn't be denigrated by anyone.

[Mrs Mungo]

My husband as two combat tours under his belt. He's voting for the first time *ever* in this election because he thinks it is such an important election (usually he says "why would you play a game in which the outcome was already decided?") and he's voting for Obama.

 

Most soldiers are against torture because it rarely gives information you can rely on as true and it takes away our moral standing in the world.

[Jill- OK]

These men were trained on name rank serial number. That was it. They were taught to survive, to live for one more day. They truly believed that they would dishonor themselves, their country, their fellow troops if they gave up any info.

 

...But I know that when my husband went through survival training (including a mock interment as a POW), they told them that everyone gives up something. Everyone has a breaking point/blind spot. They proved it to them, even without actually physically torturing them, beyond humiliation and sleep/food deprivation. (Obviously there's a limit to what you can do in a training scenario, but a big point of this was to show that there are ways aside from torture--manipulation, etc.--to get info).

 

And the training he received was focused on resistance techniques...I don't think they had developed those or trained men with them in the Viet Nam war. That makes it even more incredible to me that he lasted as long as he did, and only gave up some information.

[lovemyboys]

My husband as two combat tours under his belt. He's voting for the first time *ever* in this election because he thinks it is such an important election (usually he says "why would you play a game in which the outcome was already decided?") and he's voting for Obama.

 

Most soldiers are against torture because it rarely gives information you can rely on as true and it takes away our moral standing in the world.

 

 

I believe John McCain has been an early and vocal opponent as well.

 

This issue sickens and disgusts me.

 

For those who would call him another Bush, they should reconsider. He's not and he's said so all along. Many of the primary candidates that were running could have been called this, but I don't think it holds true for John McCain. There's a reason that Joe Lieberman stood up for him, and other Democrats are speaking out for him. He's not Bush, totally different guy, different character.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Wow, thanks to your husband for his service! Thanks to your family as well...I know that you all pay a price. I am so grateful.

 

Blessings,

Camy

[Jugglin'5]

Yes, and I also thought they were taught to give up less important info when they DID talk, or like McCain, give them the Green bay packers offensive line. My dh is ex-Air Force.

 

...But I know that when my husband went through survival training (including a mock interment as a POW), they told them that everyone gives up something. Everyone has a breaking point/blind spot. They proved it to them, even without actually physically torturing them, beyond humiliation and sleep/food deprivation. (Obviously there's a limit to what you can do in a training scenario, but a big point of this was to show that there are ways aside from torture--manipulation, etc.--to get info).

 

And the training he received was focused on resistance techniques...I don't think they had developed those or trained men with them in the Viet Nam war. That makes it even more incredible to me that he lasted as long as he did, and only gave up some information.

[Jennay]

I recently read McCain's own account of his time as a POW. After reading it, I decided that between him and Obama, I'd rather have John McCain as CIC and fighting those who want to destroy the United States.

Here's the link to the story in his own words - written in 1973.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account_print.htm

[LG Gone Wild]

 

For those who would call him another Bush, they should reconsider.

 

considering how much McCain dislikes Bush. I kind of wondered if part of McCain's maverick stances had the added benefit of putting a bee in Bush's bonnet.

[Heather in Neverland]

I was also stunned by the details of his POW days. Yes, I "knew" he had been a POW but knowing that and hearing all the heart-wrenching details of his torture are two different things.

 

You may not like his politics but how can anyone hear these details and not admire him in some way? If it were me, I would have broken down after they broke the first bone (maybe sooner).

 

The man is a hero. He has proven his mettle. And he has my vote.

[lovemyboys]

...But I know that when my husband went through survival training (including a mock interment as a POW), they told them that everyone gives up something. Everyone has a breaking point/blind spot. They proved it to them, even without actually physically torturing them, beyond humiliation and sleep/food deprivation. (Obviously there's a limit to what you can do in a training scenario, but a big point of this was to show that there are ways aside from torture--manipulation, etc.--to get info).

 

And the training he received was focused on resistance techniques...I don't think they had developed those or trained men with them in the Viet Nam war. That makes it even more incredible to me that he lasted as long as he did, and only gave up some information.

 

If I remember from reading accounts years and years ago...it was similar to what you see in the movies "name rank and serial number." McCain knew information, from his job as a pilot, about the Tongkin Gulf (sp?). He also knew positions and strategies. Their training was to give up nothing and it shamed them to be "broken."

 

Now the training is much different as many of us know. Much of the training is on survival in whatever elements and survival if captured with many tactics and techniques.

 

Which in mnsho makes it even more admirable that some of these men were able to survive....through years of this.

[danielle]

I'm surprised that no one on this board, with all of us who teach our kids logic, has pointed out the logical fallacy of the Republican's appeal on McCain. This is clearly an appeal ad misericordium--vote for McCain because he suffered so much. I admire his courage and service, but does not counter his objectionable political beliefs, his poorly thought out policies (when they exist at all), or the continuation of the disaster his party has wreaked on this country in the last 8 years.

 

Someone once said that all Rudi Giuliani has to say is "a noun, a verb, and 9/11". It seems all the Republican party has to say is a noun, a verb, and McCain was a POW. And, where is the outcry about the smarmy ridicule that characterized every speech last nite? And the utter lack of discussion of any policy proposals whatsoever? The substance of the Republican speeches so far makes the Democrats look like the Encyclopedia Britannica. Or are there different rules when it's Republicans doing it?

Danielle

[Jill- OK]

 

Just some of what he voted against:

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00263

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00040

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00041

 

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00098

 

While I respect the rights of others to disagree with additional funding for programs that help our veterans, it is McCain's record that I make my decisions on, not his war stories.

 

I couldn't find the text of the bills and amendments, attachments to them, etc., when I Googled online.

 

I'm assuming since you're familiar with his record, that you'd know about the whole of each bill...could you share a link to those?

 

I'm sincerely curious, but I have to see the whole of a bill before I make a judgement about why someone voted against it. I learned that after hearing about how McCain 'supports torture' because he voted against a bill, without seeing the specifics of *why* he voted against it.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I'm assuming since you're familiar with his record, that you'd know about the whole of each bill...could you share a link to those?

 

The links to the text of the amendments and bills are right there on the pages I linked to, just click on the amendment/bill number and it takes you right to THOMAS.

[Heather in Neverland]

I'm surprised that no one on this board, with all of us who teach our kids logic, has pointed out the logical fallacy of the Republican's appeal on McCain. This is clearly an appeal ad misericordium--vote for McCain because he suffered so much. I admire his courage and service, but does not counter his objectionable political beliefs, his poorly thought out policies (when they exist at all), or the continuation of the disaster his party has wreaked on this country in the last 8 years.

 

Someone once said that all Rudi Giuliani has to say is "a noun, a verb, and 9/11". It seems all the Republican party has to say is a noun, a verb, and McCain was a POW. And, where is the outcry about the smarmy ridicule that characterized every speech last nite? And the utter lack of discussion of any policy proposals whatsoever? The substance of the Republican speeches so far makes the Democrats look like the Encyclopedia Britannica. Or are there different rules when it's Republicans doing it?

Danielle

 

What I picked up when I typed in ad misericordium: Recognizing an argument as an appeal to pity does not necessarily invalidate the conclusion

 

While I do not see McCain's POW record to be an appeal to pity, I can see how it would strike an emotional cord in many (myself included). This does NOT, however, invalidate my conclusion...he is a man of strong character who loves his country and stood firm when at his lowest point. He is the kind of man I want running my country.

[Renee in NC]

Just looking at the first one - there is SO MUCH stuff in that one bill! IS this how they get stuff passed? Put in a bunch of stuff that may or may not have anything to do with each other? Most of what is in that bill has nothing to do with veterans at all!

 

I wouldn't be a good senator - I'd vote no on everything probably because it is so convoluted and irrelevent (on purpose, I am sure.)

[Jill- OK]

Just looking at the first one - there is SO MUCH stuff in that one bill! IS this how they get stuff passed? Put in a bunch of stuff that may or may not have anything to do with each other? Most of what is in that bill has nothing to do with veterans at all!

 

I wouldn't be a good senator - I'd vote no on everything probably because it is so convoluted and irrelevent (on purpose, I am sure.)

 

...you *have* to read *all* of what a bill states; many times, a senator gets a bad rap for voting 'against' one particular thing, when what he/she really might have been voting against was something completely different.

 

I wouldn't be a good senator, either, lol.

[Renee in NC]

...you *have* to read *all* of what a bill states; many times, a senator gets a bad rap for voting 'against' one particular thing, when what he/she really might have been voting against was something completely different.

 

I wouldn't be a good senator, either, lol.

 

Yeah, I was thinking, "Oh, maybe he was voting against the $4,000,000 for parking or the $100,000,000 for state-run nursing homes or the $4.2 BILLION for Section 8." Who knows why he voted against it?

[Marie in Oh]

Yeah, I was thinking, "Oh, maybe he was voting against the $4,000,000 for parking or the $100,000,000 for state-run nursing homes or the $4.2 BILLION for Section 8." Who knows why he voted against it?

 

I forgot to add to my other post that there is usually so much cr@p added to a bill that it gets voted against, not becasue the bill is bad, but the added stuff is just waste!

[Jill- OK]

Yeah, I was thinking, "Oh, maybe he was voting against the $4,000,000 for parking or the $100,000,000 for state-run nursing homes or the $4.2 BILLION for Section 8." Who knows why he voted against it?

 

...you can get lucky, and certain senators will address why they voted against something; I've found this a couple of times, at least.

 

It makes me wish that every senator would write a reason for his/her vote, and that that would be available, along with the vote records.

 

I know that would be a huge pain in the patoot...but it certainly would make things much clearer.

 

(Someone feel free to pleasantly surprise me, if something like this exists and I'm just unaware of it! :-)

[asta]

I'm surprised that no one on this board, with all of us who teach our kids logic, has pointed out the logical fallacy of the Republican's appeal on McCain. This is clearly an appeal ad misericordium--vote for McCain because he suffered so much. I admire his courage and service, but does not counter his objectionable political beliefs, his poorly thought out policies (when they exist at all), or the continuation of the disaster his party has wreaked on this country in the last 8 years.

 

Someone once said that all Rudi Giuliani has to say is "a noun, a verb, and 9/11". It seems all the Republican party has to say is a noun, a verb, and McCain was a POW. And, where is the outcry about the smarmy ridicule that characterized every speech last nite? And the utter lack of discussion of any policy proposals whatsoever? The substance of the Republican speeches so far makes the Democrats look like the Encyclopedia Britannica. Or are there different rules when it's Republicans doing it?

Danielle

 

It is not the job of either the VP nominee nor any of the other speakers to address policy proposals at a nominating convention. That job is left solely to the Presidential nominee.

 

If this was done differently at this years DNC, then I have no explanation for you, as there is no precedent.

 

 

asta

[PariSarah]

I'm surprised that no one on this board, with all of us who teach our kids logic, has pointed out the logical fallacy of the Republican's appeal on McCain.

 

1) To believe someone because he is suffering or has suffered is different than admiring someone's fortitude in the face of suffering. The former is a logical fallacy, the second is a reasonable character judgment.

 

2) What the Republicans want people to love about McCain and what people actually choose to love may be two different things. The OP said, for example, that she was reconsidering her position on torture, based on a story about torture. She didn't say that she was voting for McCain "because he's suffered so much." That may very well be what the Republicans want her to do. (Well, no, it's absolutely what they want.)

 

But she appears to have a capable intellect, one that is willing to engage with ideas and even change them. I admire people who are capable of changing political ideas when presented with good reasons to do so. And hearing of the suffering of actual torture victims is a good reason to change one's stance on torture. The Republicans want to use the story one way (Go McCain!), but LG is using it another way (I never really thought about torture that way!). They may be committing a logical fallacy, but she is not.

 

Look at it this way: there are some people in the Democratic party who supported Obama's nomination simply because they thought a black man was more electable than Clinton. They're pandering, in a sense, to African-Americans. Now, are the African-Americans who are going to vote for Obama idiots? Are they mindlessly voting for him because he's black? Or are they seizing the opportunity, finally, finally to have someone who is both of their political persuasion and of their race? Sure, the Democrats may be pandering. But why does that mean Obama's fans aren't getting exactly what they want? What the PTB intend, and what the people who go along with them intend, may be very different things.

[PariSarah]

. . . saying what your position on torture used to be?

[lovemyboys]

...you can get lucky, and certain senators will address why they voted against something; I've found this a couple of times, at least.

 

It makes me wish that every senator would write a reason for his/her vote, and that that would be available, along with the vote records.

 

I know that would be a huge pain in the patoot...but it certainly would make things much clearer.

 

(Someone feel free to pleasantly surprise me, if something like this exists and I'm just unaware of it! :-)

 

They made it look so simple to cross out one thing and add another. Find money here, shift it over there. But you've got a big congress with lots of members all working for their constituents. Unfortunately some of them are better than others at saying no to the ridiculous items. There was a senator from the mid-west who used to give awards for the biggest money-wasters and weirdest projects....

 

Maybe what you're asking for is available in this internet age.