No School in Two Years

[Haiku]

I'm not too familiar with the Sandra Dodd approach, although I have come to appreciate the insight I've come across. I only assume this is what you are referring to. It seems to be the standard example used by conventional home educators when referring to this idea, so I just assumed you've included it as well. My apologies if I am wrong, or if I misrepresent you.

 

You did misrepresent me. I am speaking entirely of my own experience with unschoolers I know advancing the idea that unschooling is the solution to all homeschooling difficulties.

 

But since you mentioned Sandra Dodd, I will say that she once advised me to discontinue nebulizer treatments for my then 2-year-old son because he cried during them. According to her, the right course was to hold off on these life-saving treatments until my son was old enough to understand and consent (or not, his choice) to them. If he died in the meantime ... well, at least his personal liberty was preserved.

 

Bat. Shit. Crazy.

[Chelli]

I think the advice to find out the obstacles to her homeschooling as mentioned upthread is spot on. If she wants to educate at home but doesn't have organizational skills, my opinion would be different than if she resents the burden but is taking it on because she feels she has to. There are ways to incorporate learning outside structured textbooks, but many people find a structured, consistent schedule more effective. I know for myself, as much as I'd love to have a structured, consistent schedule, I'm incapable of maintaining it longer than three days. No amount of good advice would work if it required a structured, consistent schedule. I can help with learning math concepts in a more natural setting (through play and exploration), but if she's not interested in that approach, I don't want to waste your time.

 

I just asked her this question and I'm waiting for her reply. Thanks for reminding me! I've got so many things swirling in my head that I keep forgetting things I wanted to talk to her about.

[texasmama]

I know some of you think I'm crazy for involving myself since I'm not very close in either distance or attachment to this family, but when someone lays a problem at my feet like this, especially involving children, for my own peace of mind, I have to try to do something.

I think you are kind and helpful.  I think this family has come across your path for a reason, and I appreciate your thoughtful approach to intervening.

[HS Mom in NC]

No one works sporadically on a math workbook for 3 1/2 years.  That's silly. She really means she hasn't been working on math for 3 1/2 years. Her inability to say so indicates a lot of denial on her part. "Working at their own pace" means working regularly at something in some useful way.  It's a phrase misused by some people who aren't working regularly at anything when they want to justify not working. While I understand and appreciate the effort to "support" this woman, I think she's so far gone mentally so it's a waste of time. This is not the insecure new homeschooler fretting over which phonics curriculum to choose.  This isn’t someone from a part of the world where homeschooling was unknown wondering if someone who isn’t a certified teacher can teach basic K-12 content. If her house really was that bad and she really has been as neglectful as her words indicate, this is someone who needs long term psychological help from a professional because she has a lot of internal work to do.

 

  She doesn't need curriculum advice and teaching tips because she doesn't have the sense of normal or habits and convictions needed to provide a K-12 education. She had a math curriculum with video instruction.  She chose not to use it. She spent years with her head in the sand.  That's not going to be solved with new curriculum recommendations. Of course there are unschoolers doing a great job (I've met literally dozens) and there are wonderful curriculum options and there are incredibly useful organizational structures you can implement to make homeschooling and running a household far more effective and efficient. BUT without a normal mindset and some good judgment, none of them will work.  Based on what the OP has posted, the husband hasn't got it either.
 

 Find a nice, small, Christian school like my nephew's (he has some LDs) that covers academics systematically and thoroughly and teaches the love of Jesus or send the child to public school. Done.  Sorry to be a cynic, but reality is what it is.  This woman is one of the examples people will use to end or heavily regulate homeschooling in America when most of us are perfectly capable of setting our own standards and meeting them-unschoolers included. 

[albeto.]

You did misrepresent me. I am speaking entirely of my own experience with unschoolers I know advancing the idea that unschooling is the solution to all homeschooling difficulties.

Okay. Thanks for the correction and sorry for the confusion. I read your statement as a general statement about unschoolers in general and made connections from there.

[Dmmetler]

I think for me, the key is intentional learning followed through.

 

When you buy a set of materials but don't get to it for several years, the intent was there, but it wasn't followed through. You just weren't teaching.

 

When you plan to not formally school subject X, but are intentionally doing so, strewing, and providing guidance and support, you're following through, and you're intentionally teaching.

 

When you plan to formally teach subject X, using a specific set of materials, and do it, periodically assessing and recalculating routes if needed, you're intentionally teaching.

 

It doesn't matter if your DC is on grade level, above grade level, below grade level, or on a path so far removed from grade level to be in a different galaxy-there's intent there and there's follow through.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

No one works sporadically on a math workbook for 3 1/2 years.  That's silly. "Working at their own pace" means working regularly at something in some useful way.  It's a phrase misused by some people who aren't working regularly at anything when they want to justify not working. She really means she hasn't been working on math for 3 1/2 years. Her inability to say so indicates a lot of denial on her part. While I understand and appreciate the effort to "support" this woman, I think she's so far gone mentally so it's a waste of time. This is not the insecure new homeschooler fretting over which phonics curriculum to choose.  This isn’t someone from a part of the world where homeschooling was unknown wondering if someone who isn’t a certified teacher can teach basic K-12 content. If her house really was that bad and she really has been as neglectful as her words indicate, this is someone who needs long term psychological help from a professional because she has a lot of internal work to do.

 

  She doesn't need curriculum advice and teaching tips because she doesn't have the sense of normal or habits and convictions needed to provide a K-12 education. She had a math curriculum with video instruction.  She chose not to use it. She spent years with her head in the sand.  That's not going to be solved with new curriculum recommendations. Of course there are unschoolers doing a great job (I've met literally dozens) and there are wonderful curriculum options and there are incredibly useful organizational structures you can implement to make homeschooling and running a household far more effective and efficient. BUT without a normal mindset and some good judgment, none of them will work.  Based on what the OP has posted, the husband hasn't got it either.

 

 Find a nice, small, Christian school like my nephew's (he has some LDs) that covers academics systematically and thoroughly and teaches the love of Jesus or send the child to public school. Done.  Sorry to be a cynic, but reality is what it is.  This woman is one of the examples people will use to end or heavily regulate homeschooling in America when most of us are perfectly capable of setting our own standards and meeting them-unschoolers included. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if you're 100% right. My instincts lean in this direction, too.

 

However, I have known a few neglectful homeschool moms who were only neglectful because they lacked a decent education, themselves. They were OK with reading and literacy so most of their children could read well, which helped them fool the world (and themselves) about their ability to teach.

 

This same time frame, with the eldest at 10, is exactly the same time frame during which these women of my acquaintance finally realized they needed intervention.

 

In some cases, school was the obvious option because Mom couldn't teach. Some parents will take this option but others will choose, that's choose, to let their kids falter because "heaven, not Harvard." :(  These people do not retain my help nor interest once this choice has been made, although if it's at all appropriate I'll let their teens know where they can obtain an education if they want one. :(

 

In other cases I've known, a switch to much simpler material kept the whole family in the game and progressing. If there's a chance Chelli's acquaintance would be one of these people who would do it if they could, lowering the bar a LOT might get them back on track and at least get the kids caught up in the 3 Rs before switching to online or B&M school. Switched On Schoolhouse, Lifepacs, Ace Paces...all these things I can't personally stand...exist for a reason. They are the 'better than nothing' option that gives the family a reason to open the books every day and try.

 

I'm skeptical, too, because of the maggots and the fakey online religiosity and the decision to be a homeschool/church leader while neglecting her own kids. But I do believe sometimes people need another path, at least to try, to give them the chance to prove to themselves that they can and will do what they think is right. If she'd try simpler material, with some accountability with a friend, maybe she'd get her act together.

[LucyStoner]

Interestingly, I have been given maximum periods of registration by the board who provides oversight when unschooling, as well as when using other methods. It's odd to me that a board of homeschooling mothers is more conservative than the professional educators who come out to assess our homeschools....

The difference here may be that there is NO ONE, professional or otherwise, providing ANY form of oversight to homeschoolers or unschoolers in most US states and nothing in Texas, where this person is.

 

If there were required evals or an involved oversight board, I wouldn't feel so strongly that when someone sees a homeschooling problem, they say something. To the parents and, if extreme, to the only form of oversight we have of how parents treat children- CPS. Because the public isn't doing their job to ensure all children's right to education is fulfilled, it unfortunately at times becomes incumbent on private citizens to take some form of action.

 

The sorts of stories you see in the HA site you mentioned earlier are very much made possible by the lack of legal safeguards and oversight. While I tend to agree that many of those stories are more about crazy ideologues than homeschooling, totally unregulated homeschooling makes them much more possible. Their reccomendations aren't outlaw homeschooling, they are to regulate it more.

[Catwoman]

Ds17.5 has somehow managed to get good PSAT and SAT scores despite never having had a formal writing curriculum and despite me not stressing about him keeping up with the academic Jones. Do what you're comfortable with but I wish I had been more comfortable trusting my gut throughout his entire schooling instead of almost killing his love of learning when we first switched to a textbook approach before I pulled the plug when I realized what I was doing to my particular child. Of course someone else will point out that their particular child absolutely loves and thrives with textbooks and they will be absolutely right to use them with that child. All this is just to say that there really is no one right way but what is right is to teach the student(s) that you have in your homeschool. Can kids learn without everything being tailor made? Yes. But some kids are less flexible than others and I think that one of homeschooling's greatest strengths and benefits is being able to teach to the student.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I 100% agree with Jean about this.

 

I don't think any of us is qualified or entitled to tell anyone else what is best for their own children based on what has worked for our own kids.

 

We can offer our ideas and advice based on our own experiences, but when it comes right down to it, we don't generally know other people's children well enough to know what kind of schooling would be most beneficial to them -- and realistically, what is best for a given child can vary a lot over the years, so that makes things even more complicated. Just because a kid thrives on unschooling at one point, doesn't mean there might not be a time when textbooks are the best option, or a co-op, or online learning, or (gasp!) even a traditional brick and mortar school, and then back to more unschooling... or something else entirely different.

[Guest]

You did misrepresent me. I am speaking entirely of my own experience with unschoolers I know advancing the idea that unschooling is the solution to all homeschooling difficulties.

 

But since you mentioned Sandra Dodd, I will say that she once advised me to discontinue nebulizer treatments for my then 2-year-old son because he cried during them. According to her, the right course was to hold off on these life-saving treatments until my son was old enough to understand and consent (or not, his choice) to them. If he died in the meantime ... well, at least his personal liberty was preserved.

 

Bat. Shit. Crazy.

She is a scourge upon homeschooling in my Not So Humble opinion.

[Catwoman]

But since you mentioned Sandra Dodd, I will say that she once advised me to discontinue nebulizer treatments for my then 2-year-old son because he cried during them. According to her, the right course was to hold off on these life-saving treatments until my son was old enough to understand and consent (or not, his choice) to them. If he died in the meantime ... well, at least his personal liberty was preserved.

 

Bat. Shit. Crazy.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

 

Thank goodness you had the sense to realize how crazy she was to suggest such a thing, but it is frightening to imagine that some other mom might be impressionable enough to buy into idiotic advice like that because Sandra Dodd is an "expert."

[TammyS]

The 10 year old is behind because there hasn't been consistency.  It really doesn't matter WHAT math program the mom uses.  She just needs to use it daily (and given how far behind the 10 year old is, ideally 6 days per week).  So I think she should use whatever is most user friendly to her, to maximize the chance that she will actually do it.  Again, reality-based solutions (not solutions for how she wishes she were).

[Alte Veste Academy]

I completely agree that curriculum is not the issue. I want say yes, CLE. CLE everything! We here are awesome at curriculum suggestions. But the reality is that she still has to take the bull by the horns. She has to be held accountable, and she has shown that, for whatever reason, she has not held herself accountable. She's had MUS Alpha, a respectable program, for all these years, and it hasn't been completed. One level. Of first grade math. In four grades. And that is the heart of the issue. So my primary focus would be having a very real conversation about personal change and accountability before making specific curriculum recommendations. Who can she get to hold her accountable? (Hopefully not you. That's a lot on your plate.) But doubtful it will be her DH, because he has either been blind or complicit in the educational neglect so far. So...who? Good intentions do not magically change people.

 

I would talk about accountability for household management too. I was a Social Worker before I had my kids, and I've seen enough flat out disgusting houses to have zero problem believing the mess was not hyperbole.

[73349]

If she likes MUS, they can get through Alpha from the beginning in the next four months if she will make it happen every day--she can do the first five lessons next week, then two lessons a week until they're done.

 

If she doesn't like MUS, she should start with any first-grade math curriculum she wants and do it. Again, she should be able to do the whole year's work this spring with her three oldest. Then they can work on second-grade math (again, it can be Beta or anything else she will do) through the summer and fall.

Then it's fine for the twins to drop down to a more relaxed pace (but still doing math every day). If he's capable of keeping up, it makes sense to try to help the oldest accelerate through third- and fourth-grade math in a year. (While many of his age-mates will be starting algebra at this point, it does take time to memorize the times tables).

 

If she thinks you have to do an hour of math at a time, that may be why she has avoided it. Please make sure she knows it makes more sense to do math 30 or even 10 minutes a day five or six days a week rather than waiting until she can give her undivided attention for a full hour. (I think 10 minutes a day is about what we do, and my DS is ahead of her oldest. He's not unusually good at it; we just do math a lot of days.)

[8circles]

Ok, im judging her. I think that giving her curriculum recommendations, writing out a schedule, even checking in with her regularly are all going to be fruitless. She has a blog and speaks at conferences, about what exactly? Yet she can't even keep a house at the most minimal of standards nor is she educating her children. I'm a huge supporter of unschooling but I think its clear that this isn't that. She needs serious intervention from professionals of some kind.

 

Chelli, I admire your care and concern. I think coming alongside this family is he loving thing to do. But as unpopular as this opinion might be, I think this warrants reporting. Not just because of the schooling part but the bigger picture including the house, the religious beliefs of PS being evil, and the fact that she finds time to do other things while neglecting her children. Let CPS decide whether or not the state can or should assist them.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Ok, im judging her. I think that giving her curriculum recommendations, writing out a schedule, even checking in with her regularly are all going to be fruitless. She has a blog and speaks at conferences, about what exactly? Yet she can't even keep a house at the most minimal of standards nor is she educating her children. I'm a huge supporter of unschooling but I think its clear that this isn't that. She needs serious intervention from professionals of some kind.

 

Chelli, I admire your care and concern. I think coming alongside this family is he loving thing to do. But as unpopular as this opinion might be, I think this warrants reporting. Not just because of the schooling part but the bigger picture including the house, the religious beliefs of PS being evil, and the fact that she finds time to do other things while neglecting her children. Let CPS decide whether or not the state can or should assist them.

 

Does that not change a little when her stance becomes, "OK, friend, I hear you. Would you please help and advise me?"

 

Do you then answer, "No, I am calling CPS. Goodbye."

 

Or do you do what Chelli is doing and try, even if you doubt your help will make a difference and you're too far away to be very involved...even if you know you're probably the last step before more serious intervention must happen?

 

I'd do what Chelli is doing, and hang in there until it's not effective for the friend or beyond what I can reasonably give, at which point I'd make a decision about involving the authorities. I would not say, "Nope, sorry, I've figured this out, you're not sincere, might want to clean up the maggots because CPS is on the way."

 

No. I'd try to help first, with eyes wide open as to whether I was actually helping. I'd also give the situation a time frame in my mind - a short one.

 

[Katy]

Going back to the last thing I found really interesting in this thread  (not that I'm not interested in your update, Chelli, I just have no further advice about it), I'm pretty much the furthest thing from an unschooler but even I hate textbooks.  It's difficult to research and cover original source documents in a systematic way though. 

[Tsuga]

Oh man if having religious beliefs that PS is evil could get you reported in my area, which is extremely liberal, I tell you what, we'd still need to import people from China to be foster parents. That just can't be a criterion for reporting, not even as part of the overall picture. That's a question of beliefs, not of safety.

 

Same with the dishes. House is gross? Hire a cleaning lady for a week, tell a story about how your cleaning lady made all the difference in your life for a few years, and have at it. This cannot be reportable. Now, if there are hypodermic needles on the floor....

 

Now if she continues to have the 10 year old truant... that's a problem.

[8circles]

Well, yes and no. I think what Chelli is doing is great and I think she should continue. But I think expecting this woman to all of a sudden have lightbulbs go off about how to get her life (as mother and educator) together is naive. She needs more than Chelli can offer her. If this were me, I'd be helping AND I'd be calling CPS.

 

Does that not change a little when her stance becomes, "OK, friend, I hear you. Would you please help and advise me?"

 

Do you then answer, "No, I am calling CPS. Goodbye."

 

Or do you do what Chelli is doing and try, even if you doubt your help will make a difference and you're too far away to be very involved...even if you know you're probably the last step before more serious intervention must happen?

 

I'd do what Chelli is doing, and hang in there until it's not effective for the friend or beyond what I can reasonably give, at which point I'd make a decision about involving the authorities. I would not say, "Nope, sorry, I've figured this out, you're not sincere, might want to clean up the maggots because CPS is on the way."

 

No. I'd try to help first, with eyes wide open as to whether I was actually helping. I'd also give the situation a time frame in my mind - a short one.

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Well, yes and no. I think what Chelli is doing is great and I think she should continue. But I think expecting this woman to all of a sudden have lightbulbs go off about how to get her life (as mother and educator) together is naive. She needs more than Chelli can offer her. If this were me, I'd be helping AND I'd be calling CPS.

 

 

I don't think Chelli or any of us supporting her are naive. We've BTDT with parents who never did get it together. But to refuse to help when asked and involve the authorities from the start, or to say, "I'll help you but only if we also turn you in,"...I wonder if you just caused 100 women reading along to vow never to tell a homeschooling friend they're in trouble with their homeschool.

[TammyS]

Well, yes and no. I think what Chelli is doing is great and I think she should continue. But I think expecting this woman to all of a sudden have lightbulbs go off about how to get her life (as mother and educator) together is naive. She needs more than Chelli can offer her. If this were me, I'd be helping AND I'd be calling CPS.

 

 

Well, if the woman is asking for help, then I don't think anything is "all of a sudden".  Chelli didn't come to her and say, "Sister, your place is NASTY and your kids are ignorant. You need to get your ____ together, and I'm gonna be your savior."  That's not what happened.

 

The woman recognized she isn't doing right.  She admitted it.  She asked for help. 

 

Honestly, once the situation were in place, I'm not sure what more we could ask for.  Isn't admitting a problem and asking for help what we want people to be able to do?  And for those of us who don't care to have the government overseeing our lives, isn't this HOW we would like it done, one parent to another?

[8circles]

Reportable means I think professionals need to be informed that there might be a problem so they can go check it out. Nothing more.

 

None of those things by themselves IMO are necessarily reportable but I think in combination they are. Looking at the big picture, this is bad. Not just doing things differently, but bad.

Oh man if having religious beliefs that PS is evil could get you reported in my area, which is extremely liberal, I tell you what, we'd still need to import people from China to be foster parents. That just can't be a criterion for reporting, not even as part of the overall picture. That's a question of beliefs, not of safety.

 

Same with the dishes. House is gross? Hire a cleaning lady for a week, tell a story about how your cleaning lady made all the difference in your life for a few years, and have at it. This cannot be reportable. Now, if there are hypodermic needles on the floor....

 

Now if she continues to have the 10 year old truant... that's a problem.

[TammyS]

...I wonder if you just caused 100 women reading along to vow never to tell a homeschooling friend they're in trouble with their homeschool.

 

She ABSOLUTELY has caused me to remind myself to be very close mouthed about telling anything to people I don't trust utterly.

[TammyS]

Reportable means I think professionals need to be informed that there might be a problem so they can go check it out. Nothing more.

 

None of those things by themselves IMO are necessarily reportable but I think in combination they are. Looking at the big picture, this is bad. Not just doing things differently, but bad.

 

I wonder if you have a sufficient appreciation for how serious a thing it is to report people to CPS.  How much stress, terror, and misery it causes, even to those who have done NOTHING wrong.  Did you see the thread about the people who let their kids walk home from the park?  They were found to be "unsubstantiated neglect" and they will be on a government watch list for the next 5 years. 

[HS Mom in NC]

This is not a normal situation.  Normal help/support/advice from homeschoolers/friends/church members isn't even close to the kind needed to deal effectively with this situation.

 

Chelli isn't a mental health professional.  This person needs the help of a mental health professional.  Chelli doesn't have the legal authority to force this person to get the right kind of help and making sure the children are regularly and effectively educated long term. CPS does. That's what this person and her husband need.

[texasmama]

The truth is that having moldy dishes in the sink and a fourth grader doing a first grade math curriculum is not likely to warrant a CPS investigation.

 

Any help which is forthcoming is likely from Chelli or someone like her.

[8circles]

I don't think Chelli or any of us supporting her are naive. I'm not accusing anyone of being naive unless you think Chelli helping her will be enough.  This is a situation beyond friends helping friends IMO.  We've BTDT with parents who never did get it together. But to refuse to help when asked and involve the authorities from the start, or to say,  I specifically said to help so I'm not sure where the "refuse" is coming from.  "I'll help you but only if we also turn you in,"...I wonder if you just caused 100 women reading along to vow never to tell a homeschooling friend they're in trouble with their homeschool.

Hmmm.  Maybe?  I can't say that I'm all that concerned about it.  People in this woman's situation need professional help.  Something is seriously wrong here.  If you don't agree with that then we won't agree on what to do about it either.  Agree to disagree.  If someone else is in a similarly grave situation and you are too afraid to ask for help, I both pity you and am angry with you.  How dare you subject your children to such a life because you were too selfish to get it together or to make them a priority or admit that you were screwing up.  

 

As much as it's popular to talk about reporting someone to CPS as punishment, that isn't what it's for.  It isn't a perfect solution but it isn't going overboard for this situation.  It is a shame that we've come to regard CPS as evil and anti-family.  As much as she wants to, Chelli can't fix what's wrong here.  

 

If people respond to my opinion with fear I'm not sure what to say.  I want this woman and her family to get the help they desperately need.  If you are in a similar situation I fear for your children and their future.  No child deserves to grow up in that environment.  Please ask for help and know that your friends are probably not enough.

[Tsuga]

8circles, I disagree. I think that when a friend confides in you and there is no immediate danger to the children, it is not appropriate to report. When would I report?

 

--Immediate threat of kidnapping ("parental kidnapping")

--Child needs medical attention and is currently in a deteriorating state (i.e. not just eczema, but open wounds and parent won't see a doctor)

--Child is in danger of being physically hurt (i.e. abusive girl/boyfriend or spouse or older sibling)

--Parent is quickly deteriorating to the point of not being able to care for the child but unable or unwilling to seek treatment (i.e. repeated suicide threats and refusal to let me drive them to a crisis center and take the kids for a couple of nights).

--Child is severely neglected, i.e. not clothed, not fed (this would include restrictive diets not at behest of a doctor, which cause weight loss rather than weight gain)

 

I do think truancy eventually merits reporting. However, in this case, the family has expressed a desire to improve their way of homeschooling (or so it seems) so that is not ongoing truancy.

 

I get it. The situation in this thread sounds bad, yes. But the kids are fed and clothed and nobody's hurting them. One or two more months in which OP scaffolds mom will not make or break the kids' education or health. This is where you help, not report.

 

I don't want to be part of a society of litigious jerks, but that means we've got to put up with some stuff and pitch in.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The truth is that having moldy dishes in the sink and a fourth grader doing a first grade math curriculum is not likely to warrant a CPS investigation.

 

Any help which is forthcoming is likely from Chelli or someone like her.

 

Yep.

 

We've got public school families in my area whose children suffer from hunger, filth, and illiteracy in the home. Mostly nothing happens until drugs or violence threaten imminent disaster. Just being poor, dirty, and ignorant is lamentable, and people are trying to do something (from school to church to CPS), but it's simply not an emergency even though the children's future trajectories are being decimated.

 

Sometimes I think people imagine CPS to be some sort of not-quite-so-Dickensian benevolent arm that bestows food, clothing, housing, and education on the deserving poor. 

 

[TammyS]

This is not a normal situation.  Normal help/support/advice from homeschoolers/friends/church members isn't even close to the kind needed to deal effectively with this situation.

 

Chelli isn't a mental health professional.  This person needs the help of a mental health professional.  Chelli doesn't have the legal authority to force this person to get the right kind of help and making sure the children are regularly and effectively educated long term. CPS does. That's what this person and her husband need.

 

Of course it's not a normal situation.  If it were, then this discussion wouldn't even be going on.

 

I'm not sure that we can assume this woman needs mental health help. 

 

And Chelli doesn't have to force her to do anything.  The woman has asked for help in getting back on track.  Chelli can make suggestions and offer accountability.  And if the woman fails to follow through, the ability to contact the authorities (which I don't agree is warranted anyway) isn't going anywhere. 

[8circles]

I wonder if you have a sufficient appreciation for how serious a thing it is to report people to CPS.  How much stress, terror, and misery it causes, even to those who have done NOTHING wrong.  Did you see the thread about the people who let their kids walk home from the park?  They were found to be "unsubstantiated neglect" and they will be on a government watch list for the next 5 years. 

 

Yes, it can be that.  It can also help families who are truly in need.  As I see that this family is.  We only hear about the cases that are ridiculous.

[TammyS]

  Please ask for help and know that your friends are probably not enough.

 

You're not saying ask for help.  The woman DID ask for help.  You just don't like the help she asked for.

 

You are saying ask for government intervention.

[8circles]

You're not saying ask for help.  The woman DID ask for help.  You just don't like the help she asked for.

 

You are saying ask for government intervention.

 

Yes, I am.  I'm saying that CPS *can* help.  I'm saying I don't think that Chelli is capable of helping enough to make a difference.  Something more is needed.  

[8circles]

Yep.

 

We've got public school families in my area whose children suffer from hunger, filth, and illiteracy in the home. Mostly nothing happens until drugs or violence threaten imminent disaster. Just being poor, dirty, and ignorant is lamentable, and people are trying to do something (from school to church to CPS), but it's simply not an emergency even though the children's future trajectories are being decimated.

 

Sometimes I think people imagine CPS to be some sort of not-quite-so-Dickensian benevolent arm that bestows food, clothing, housing, and education on the deserving poor. 

 

 

Yes, there are more dire situations than this one.  Lots and lots of people need help that don't get it and sometimes it still isn't enough.  The problem here is this woman doesn't even seem to realize how serious her problem is.  She has friends who one-up her mold with maggots.  Her children are educationally neglected so she can stroke her ego on the lecture circuit.  Asking Chelli for help as she has doesn't indicate that she is aware of any of this, it just shows a glimmer.  She needs flood lights, not a glimmer. 

[Tsuga]

Yes, I am.  I'm saying that CPS *can* help.  I'm saying I don't think that Chelli is capable of helping enough to make a difference.  Something more is needed.  

 

But in this case, a month or two will not change much. So there is a good reason for Chelli to help out and do her best. It's not like--the child is losing a pound a week and getting lethargic and Chelli's selling essential oils to help, you know?

 

This is something that (a) will take time to work out regardless (public school will take time to remediate anyway), (b) she may be willing to get help on from a friend, and © would have the same effect, more or less, if the kid goes to fifth grade at age 10 next year anyway.

 

I mean let's say you call CPS. What is the most they could do? Put mom in a parenting class with housekeeping, put the little ones in second grade (to be behind) and put the oldest in fifth grade (to be extremely behind). This is from March - June. Kids will make progress, then have summer off. Mom and dad might move to keep them out of PS over the summer.

 

Whereas, if Chelli tries, then nothing is happening, in late June when assessments happen anyway, Chelli can report if she feels the need. At that point, the kids and family have two months to get their butts in gear or go to public school.

 

I'm keeping an open mind. I'm one of the first people on here to say this is a big deal. But you have to work with people, meet them where they are at. I would support reporting if this family does not get its act together.

[8circles]

But in this case, a month or two will not change much. So there is a good reason for Chelli to help out and do her best. It's not like--the child is losing a pound a week and getting lethargic and Chelli's selling essential oils to help, you know?

 

This is something that (a) will take time to work out regardless (public school will take time to remediate anyway), (b) she may be willing to get help on from a friend, and © would have the same effect, more or less, if the kid goes to fifth grade at age 10 next year anyway.

 

I mean let's say you call CPS. What is the most they could do? Put mom in a parenting class with housekeeping, put the little ones in second grade (to be behind) and put the oldest in fifth grade (to be extremely behind). This is from March - June. Kids will make progress, then have summer off. Mom and dad might move to keep them out of PS over the summer.

 

Whereas, if Chelli tries, then nothing is happening, in late June when assessments happen anyway, Chelli can report if she feels the need. At that point, the kids and family have two months to get their butts in gear or go to public school.

 

I'm keeping an open mind. I'm one of the first people on here to say this is a big deal. But you have to work with people, meet them where they are at. I would support reporting if this family does not get its act together.

 

I don't disagree with this at all except that I think enough time has already passed.  Her oldest is 10.  This mom isn't some uneducated ignoramus.  She knows what's what and has convinced herself it's OK to be neglectful.  Because pastor's-wife-public-speaker-PS-is-evil-other-people-have-maggots-not-mold.

[Catwoman]

I don't disagree with this at all except that I think enough time has already passed. Her oldest is 10. This mom isn't some uneducated ignoramus. She knows what's what and has convinced herself it's OK to be neglectful. Because pastor's-wife-public-speaker-PS-is-evil-other-people-have-maggots-not-mold.

But do we really know that the 10yo is far behind in any area but math? We don't even know that he can't write a sentence -- we know a Sunday School teacher said he wouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have done it.

 

If Chelli said the kids were uncivilized, filthy, miserable, malnourished-looking, illiterate, and otherwise neglected, that would be one thing, but I'm not getting that impression from her posts. And Chelli doesn't see the woman very often so she has no way of accurately assessing what is happening in that household on a day to day basis. IMO, Chelli doesn't have enough personal knowledge of that family's daily life to be able to determine that she should report them.

 

Also, I think it is pretty scary to think that a mom could have a few conversations with someone she believes to be her friend where she admits that she is having trouble keeping up with things, and have that "friend" report her to CPS.

 

That's not friendship.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't disagree with this at all except that I think enough time has already passed.  Her oldest is 10.  This mom isn't some uneducated ignoramus.  She knows what's what and has convinced herself it's OK to be neglectful.  Because pastor's-wife-public-speaker-PS-is-evil-other-people-have-maggots-not-mold.

 

Can I ask you a couple of personal questions? I don't wish to offend and don't intend to, but am very curious about your perspective and wonder if it's a matter of differing experiences.

 

Have you ever called CPS to report a homeschooling family? (I have.)

 

Have you ever worked with a homeschooling family that shouldn't be homeschooling, as a last ditch effort to help them achieve their goals before turning them over to a higher level of help? (I have.)

[Tsuga]

The problem is you get 10 year olds in public schools, from tidy homes, who can't do math. Some children have disabilities, and some schools just suck. Some kids' parents do their homework for them! Kids do slip through the cracks and it's a crying shame every time. Heck, many people here pulled their kids out because the kids weren't learning.

 

Enough time passed but Chelli wasn't a witness to that, and she also doesn't know that this hasn't happened before. Other than reaching out to this woman's entire network to see whether this is a pattern (not a bad second step by the way), trying out some solutions and giving moral support is probably a good idea.

 

And did I mention we are a public school family and that I work in education and the public sector? Believe me, I am very pro-government, pretty much as far as you can get on these boards. It's not that I don't take it seriously.

[8circles]

Can I ask you a couple of personal questions? I don't wish to offend and don't intend to, but am very curious about your perspective and wonder if it's a matter of differing experiences.

 

Have you ever called CPS to report a homeschooling family? (I have.)

 

Have you ever worked with a homeschooling family that shouldn't be homeschooling, as a last ditch effort to help them achieve their goals before turning them over to a higher level of help? (I have.)

1) I plead the 5th.

2) no, not that extreme. I have helped friends, both close and not-so-close get back on track according to their own standards and desires for schooling. I have never encountered this kind of situation where so many things need addressing and the parents are in such denial.

[FaithManor]

NM

[texasmama]

Yes, I am.  I'm saying that CPS *can* help.  I'm saying I don't think that Chelli is capable of helping enough to make a difference.  Something more is needed.  

Again, this is likely not a call that CPS would even send an investigator out to check on.  It would likely be received and documented and no follow up would be made.

 

Chelli's help may not be enough, yet this family may not be quite bad enough (or not nearly bad enough) to trigger a CPS investigation and possible intervention.  These kids, like many in public schools or private schools, may fall through the cracks.  This is not uncommon. 

 

I have friends and relatives with kids in the public school system that fall through the cracks, too.  Try having a kid with a 75-85 IQ in public school.  Brutal.  Not bad enough to get much, if any, extra help but not a high enough IQ to be able to be successful in a typical classroom.  Sure, if you have ADHD or some other issue going on you might be able to get a 504 plan, but if your issue is just a below average IQ that does not qualify as IDD, you are pretty much screwed, to use the vernacular.

 

We all may be outraged and offended and upset by this family (and fearful and embarrassed if this is happening in our own beloved state in which we personally value the freedoms we are granted as homeschoolers), but there is a gap which exists between "good enough by most of our standards" and "CPS intervention worthy".  IMO, this family falls into it. 

[texasmama]

Her husband, in this case is not a mandatory reporter due to spousal privilege. He would be for other families.

There is no spousal privilege in Texas which excuses not reporting, even for general citizens who are not mandatory reporters (can't speak for other states).  A spouse can and will be prosecuted and convicted of up to a felony "failure to report" charge when he/she has knowledge of abuse or neglect of minor children, even his/her own and the abuser/neglecter is a spouse and fails to report it.

[HS Mom in NC]

Of course it's not a normal situation.  If it were, then this discussion wouldn't even be going on.

 

I'm not sure that we can assume this woman needs mental health help. 

 

And Chelli doesn't have to force her to do anything.  The woman has asked for help in getting back on track.  Chelli can make suggestions and offer accountability.  And if the woman fails to follow through, the ability to contact the authorities (which I don't agree is warranted anyway) isn't going anywhere. 

 

Educational neglect is a crime in all 50 states.  Children are as entitled to an adequate education as they are adequate food, clothing, shelter and medical care.  This woman and her husband are criminals. If your kitchen is as bad as hers was described as up thread, it's a threat to health.  That's child endangerment.  We remove animals from homes like that.

 

Not reporting it is the same as not reporting that a child is being denied enough food.

 

Is CPS dealing with even worse cases of abuse and neglect?  Yes.  Are they overburdened as it is?  Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that a child is being educationally neglected and the parents are criminals.  Someone defacing my property isn't as bad a someone else being raped or murdered, but it's illegal none the less and perfectly appropriate to report it to law enforcement and they should investigate and prosecute as appropriate.

[texasmama]

I think much of the confusion in this thread is that laws vary so much from state to state. 

[FaithManor]

There is no spousal privilege in Texas which excuses not reporting, even for general citizens who are not mandatory reporters (can't speak for other states).  A spouse can and will be prosecuted and convicted of up to a felony "failure to report" charge when he/she has knowledge of abuse or neglect of minor children, even his/her own and the abuser/neglecter is a spouse and fails to report it.

Ah, see that's where that whole difference between the states creeps in because in Michigan, spousal privilege usually holds in family court, though it wouldn't criminal court.

[HS Mom in NC]

 

 

Chelli's help may not be enough, yet this family may not be quite bad enough (or not nearly bad enough) to trigger a CPS investigation and possible intervention.  These kids, like many in public schools or private schools, may fall through the cracks.  This is not uncommon. 

 

I have friends and relatives with kids in the public school system that fall through the cracks, too.  Try having a kid with a 75-85 IQ in public school.  Brutal.  Not bad enough to get much, if any, extra help but not a high enough IQ to be able to be successful in a typical classroom.  Sure, if you have ADHD or some other issue going on you might be able to get a 504 plan, but if your issue is just a below average IQ that does not qualify as IDD, you are pretty much screwed, to use the vernacular.

 

 

 

 

The obvious difference, of course, is that the schools are not failing to provide regular, daily instruction.  There's all the difference in the world between consistently trying things that make sense and having them not work (not what's going on with the family in question) and doing nothing at all (exactly what's going on with the family in question.)   Doing nothing at all is criminal. Just because a child might fall through the cracks in ps is no reason to not report someone who is choosing not to educate their child when the law requires them to.

[sunflowerlady]

I think a fresh math curriculum for 10 yo is a good idea. It will give a fresh start and the idea of a new beginning. CLE is a good idea. Also I recommend ACE paces for math. I know many hate them, but they were awesome for my dd when she was younger and struggling in math. There used to be a free online diagnostic test.

 

It hurts a little to hear curriculum I have used and some I still use be called just barely better than doing nothing. Oh well, it helps us stay on track better and it actually gets done.

[unsinkable]

My training in this regard is crystal clear. If the mother says to me, "We haven't done any school work in two years." That's actionable.

 

Unschooling is technically illegal in Michigan. Most people do not realize this. You are required to be able to produce proof that you have addressed throughout the school year and made progress in mathematics, grammar, writing, spelling, reading, civics/social studies, and science. Period. If you successfully unschool, you still need to keep some books and physical work around that shows progress because in both Macomb County and Traverse, unschooled students have been found truant, and parents have sat in the hot seat for it. Just because homeschooling is legal in your state, that doesn't mean every method of education has been embraced as legitimate by the state.

 

Four or five years of Alpha MUS is not progress. This will get one a date in family court.

 

If the mother said this to me and she were a resident of this state, I would face breaking the law to NOT report her. Her statement is one of extreme truancy.

 

We don't get the luxury of making judgment calls when such statements are made by the parent or guardian or the child for that matter.

 

My understanding is that it is even worse in Pennsylvania.

 

That is very unpopular on this board because again, the prevailing thought tends to be that children are not people with basic human rights. But, it simply is not legally so, and some of us would not be willing to put our own behind in a sling because someone else doesn't want to follow the law.

 

I would not report based on what the Sunday School teacher said. That's hearsay. If the child said, "I haven't done school work in two years." I have to report. If the mother says, "We have not done school in two years, there are maggots in my sink, and I throw away the dishes because there is more mold than I care to wash." I have to report. I don't get the option to try to figure out if it's hyperbole, or flat out lie for attention or whatever. I simply have to report.

 

Her husband, in this case is not a mandatory reporter due to spousal privilege. He would be for other families.

Where do you come up with the first sentence I bolded? It boggles my mind that you think the prevailing thought on this board is that children are not people with basic human rights.

 

It is so insulting to the posters here.

 

If a fly came along, it could lay eggs in my mouth and I'd be MaggotMouth in a few days because my mouth is just hanging open in disbelief.

[kiana]

The obvious difference, of course, is that the schools are not failing to provide regular, daily instruction.  There's all the difference in the world between consistently trying things that make sense and having them not work (not what's going on with the family in question) and doing nothing at all (exactly what's going on with the family in question.)   Doing nothing at all is criminal. Just because a child might fall through the cracks in ps is no reason to not report someone who is choosing not to educate their child when the law requires them to.

 

Yes.

 

If I heard that a school was letting the kids play video games or just do whatever they wanted while the teacher worked on her blog, you are damn straight that I'd be filing complaints and letting the media know about it if the complaints didn't work.

 

Edit: Similarly, if the mother were trying stuff and it just wasn't working, I wouldn't consider that educational neglect.