3in9th Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 My kids just took the Woodcock-Johnson test. They scored extremely high on most of the categories (consistently 5 or more grade levels above where they actually are), but for math that are either at or only slightly above grade level. This is especially true for "Math Fluency." TBT, they are still a year behind in Singapore Math, on the last section of 7B and are 8th graders who are nearly done for the homeschool year, but they have consistently tested "low" in math every time they've taken the Woodcock-Johnson (in 3rd, 5th, and now 8th grade). Anyone have any insight or should I just chill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 How do they do with the math generally (testing part aside)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3in9th Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 They consistently test above Singapore Math's A mark of 75%. Their problem solving skills on the W-J were extremely high. It's the calculation and fluency that were "behind" so I don't know if it's just a matter of a more problem solving-based curriculum versus a number-plugging one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Which version of SM are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I don't think that's very unusual actually. Our area requires testing annually, so many families use the WJ or the Peabody (which is very similar in format to the WJ, with a ceiling of 12th grade instead of college). Many homeschoolers I know have kids that test very high in other areas and do much closer to grade level in math. I also have a kid that took the Peabody at a little above grade level one year and the next year hit the ceiling of the same test because his computational skills started catching up to his conceptual math skills. Sometimes there's a divide between speed, conceptual understanding, accuracy, and ability to do quick calculations. If you aren't doing any drill work in conjunction with Singapore, I would do some of that. We used Singapore (and various things after 6B) and my oldest is testing extremely well in math now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I'd say maybe they could use more drilling in addition and multiplication facts. I know the public school curriculum (in general) heavily emphasizes calculation and fluency and really de-emphasizes problem solving skills and understanding of math. Singapore is the opposite. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The subtests other than fluency will give you a better idea of their actual math achievement. If you're worried about the fluency, have them do fluency (speed and accuracy) drills, and working on fluency with mental math procedures will also help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 My DS is younger, but his fluency scores were lower than the other subtests as well. He doesn't write fast, so I chalked it up to that. I'm sure you can get their fluency up with practice. It's not something I'd be overly concerned about. I think it's easily remedied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 No experience with Woodcock-Johnson test. However for math fluency/computation speed, add on drills if you want to. If it is a timed test, being able to drop questions and move on can improve the score by a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3in9th Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Thanks, y'all! Any suggestions for how to drill. I have Math Busters, but that seems a little too easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Thinking out loud: first, if they are testing average or slightly-above-average, that is only "low" relative to their scores in other, non-math areas, correct? How does Singapore at the level they are using (7B?) compare to "8th grade math" on WJ? In other words, what I see: you are using a program below their grade level (7th) but wonder why they are not testing higher for their grade level (8th), which doesn't make sense to me generally, though I don't know specifically how close Singapore is to grade level (above?), and this is at a particular juncture before, during or after the murky threshold of moving from prealgebra to "algebra 1" in an integrated program. I think that to find any meaning in the WJ scores, you'll have to look to subtest areas, as the PPs mention. Beyond that, I'd worry more about their assessments within Singapore itself, or use placement tests from some other program to get a feel for how they're doing compared to grade level. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherGoose Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree that they probably need more work with basic arithmetic. My oldest is only in 3rd grade but that's what I'd think if it were my child. Without the basic skills with math facts it slows them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I have one kid who has taken the WJ at least twice and was using SM at the time. His highest scores were in math on the WJ. He is an average-ish student with a strength in math, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine.more Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Thanks, y'all! Any suggestions for how to drill. I have Math Busters, but that seems a little too easy. You can just do basic flashcards or find timed worksheets. It's boring, but effective :) Basically just set aside one day a week to do some timed math facts drilling and keep records to show progress overall. But honestly, I'm always much more concerned about number sense and understanding of numbers than fluency. Fluency is important of course but if I had to sacrifice one over the other I'd easily sacrifice fluency! My oldest daughter did public school math and was 'on level' in computation until 4th grade then everything tanked because the whole time she had zero comprehension or number sense. Math is a big source of frustration now, she stalled out at multiplication and can't really do division because she doesn't even understand multiplication. My older son has done Singapore Math only and he has excellent number sense. This year he's on Singapore 2 and I noticed he wasn't strong on his multiplication facts so we do a little drilling of that. He likes this practice for multiplication facts: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/skillswise/maths/ma13time/game/ma13tabl-game-tables-grid-find/timestables_2.swf And I agree with what someone else said that if they're working one grade level below then I'd expect them to be a tad behind on standardized tests in some areas. No big deal. As long as you have a plan for where they're headed in math long-term then I see no need to worry. If you want them to get to Pre-Calculus or Calculus level by 12th grade you'll need to eventually double up somehow and get them ahead. But no big deal, I took Algebra II and Geometry simultaneously in public school so I could get to PreCalc by 12th grade and it was hard but definitely doable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We use SM with the older one (though my younger one uses Miquon). My kids score sky high on problem-solving and meh on fluency. HOWEVER, the person giving the test noted that they are dead on ACCURATE, just slow with calculation. And it holds true in their work--they rarely miscalculate anything. But they don't work fast. My older one was in school for K-2, and they drilled, drilled, drilled (A Beka). It didn't help him learn his math facts at all. Some kids will learn with drill. Mine just doesn't have a math fact slot--he develops a memory for them with repeated use over time in challenging problems. My little one probably could learn more from drill; I just haven't gotten in the habit yet. Number sense--totally off-topic, but my littler developed number sense intuitively on his own (still working on it). He asked everyone he knew how old they were for about a year when he was 4 or so. It made a tremendous difference in his understanding of numbers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3in9th Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 I've seen it said here that SM's 7th grade year is a slog. It's been. They are finishing it up, but are on set notation. Set notation in 7th grade! My dh who nearly got a minor in math in college never did set notation. So I'm not concerned that they seem "behind" in actual grade between what SM says in 7th grade and their grade in school. I am still confused about how this is shaking down on their scores. I'll just lay out one of them to show y'all exactly what I'm talking about: BROAD MATH is a broad measure of math achievement, including math calculation skills, problem solving, andthe ability to solve simple addition, subtraction, and multiplication facts quickly. Grade Equivalent 10.6 and Instructional Range 7.3 to 13.0; Her performance in each area is shown below. Based on a comparison to others in her grade, ____'s Broad Math national percentile rank of 66 means that she scored higher than about 66 percent of eighth-gradestudents nationally on that measure. AVERAGE MATH CALCULATION SKILLS is a combined measure of math computational skills and the ability to do simplemath calculations quickly. Grade Equivalent 10.0 and Instructional Range 6.7 to 13.0; Her performance in each area is shown below. Based on a comparison to others in her grade, ____'s Math Calculation Skills national percentile rank of 62 means that she scored higher than about 66 percent of eighth-gradestudents nationally on that measure. AVERAGE Math Fluency measured _____'s ability to solve simple addition, subtraction, and multiplication problemsquickly. Grade Equivalent 8.9 and Instructional Range 5.5 to 13.9; Her performance in each area is shown below. Based on a comparison to others in her grade, ____'s Math Fluency national percentile rank of 53 means that she scored higher than about 66 percent of eighth-gradestudents nationally on that measure. AVERAGE There's always been a disconnect between the listed grade equivalent and then the nationalized scores and percentile rank. I mean, how can one be at or significantly above grade level (the 10.0 and 10.6 GE) and still be average and in the 60s percentile rank? Anyway, thanks for commiserating. I'm glad to hear other SM families have the same issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'd say maybe they could use more drilling in addition and multiplication facts. I know the public school curriculum (in general) heavily emphasizes calculation and fluency and really de-emphasizes problem solving skills and understanding of math. Singapore is the opposite. SM assumes that a lot of drilling will be done outside of the programme. Once the concept has been learned, then absolutely children in Singapore schools will be drilling. I learned this from a maths teacher at the Singapore school in Hong Kong. I used a drill programme alongside SM. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 SM assumes that a lot of drilling will be done outside of the programme. Once the concept has been learned, then absolutely children in Singapore schools will be drilling. This from a maths teacher at the Singapore school in Hong Kong. I used a drill programme alongside SM. Yes I'm always baffled that people think there is no drilling. I admit I don't do a ton of drilling, but we play a lot of math games to work on just practicing the basic facts. The home instructor's guide for the PM version has a lot of exercises outside of what is in the text. The text is created probably with the assumption that a teacher will be teaching and not just following exactly what is in the book. They don't need to put drilling in the book. But that said, I think if the kid was obviously not having problems in math, I might just let the lower score in that one section go and chalk it up to the fact the test was probably not created with SM methods in mind. K gets stressed with stuff like speed drills. I don't push it and force him to do a bunch of speed drills. That has not reflected negatively in the standardized tests I've used, but either way I don't really worry about it. If I had the option, I would not give those tests at all or at least not until high school. Since I work one on one with him I know what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3in9th Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Thanks once again, everyone! It might be they are a bit out of practice as lately they were using calculators because they were doing exponential notation. I'll get to drilling them for a bit in preparation for the eventual PSATs/SATs/ACTs. It's just so weird to have that marked disparity between the math fluency and everything else. BTW, this is their last year for WJ as my state requires such testing only in 3rd, 5th, and 8th. Happy, happy, joy, joy! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Thanks once again, everyone! It might be they are a bit out of practice as lately they were using calculators because they were doing exponential notation. I'll get to drilling them for a bit in preparation for the eventual PSATs/SATs/ACTs. It's just so weird to have that marked disparity between the math fluency and everything else. BTW, this is their last year for WJ as my state requires such testing only in 3rd, 5th, and 8th. Happy, happy, joy, joy! Oh awesome you are done with the testing crap. I was just going to say it might be interesting to see how they would do on another test. But no need now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 There's always been a disconnect between the listed grade equivalent and then the nationalized scores and percentile rank. I mean, how can one be at or significantly above grade level (the 10.0 and 10.6 GE) and still be average and in the 60s percentile rank? The percentile rank is compared to everyone taking the test that is in that grade. If peers did really well on the same material, your percentile rank will be more toward the middle. If peers did poorly in comparison, your kids will be bunched near the top. My son once scored perfectly on a section of a standardized test (all questions correct). Guess what? So did a LOT of kids on that one test section--his percentile on that particular section was something like 85% because 85% of kids scored perfectly. In other words, the ceiling (highest possible score) on that test was too low. They didn't put enough stretch into that test to be able to show the limits of individual children's ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Aren't "fluency" scores on the WJ related to processing speed? Meaning you could have the best math students in the world and they'd never get super-high fluency scores if they tend to process more slowly. When my dd was tested by an np, she got very high achievement scores but her fluency scores were significantly lower. This became PART of the basis for determining she had a processing speed weakness. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2girls&amom Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 SM assumes that a lot of drilling will be done outside of the programme. Once the concept has been learned, then absolutely children in Singapore schools will be drilling. I learned this from a maths teacher at the Singapore school in Hong Kong. I used a drill programme alongside SM. Laura, Which program did you use for drill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Laura, Which program did you use for drill? Sorry for the late reply - my notifications seem not to be working. I used a series of UK books. They were just called 'Timed Maths Tests' or something. They weren't anything special - I'm sure lots of books would have worked. I think it was twenty questions a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Have them create their own multiplication charts and definitely check out you tube videos for interesting ways to learn specific tables. Also, when doing flash cards, get multiplication flash cards that have the division on the back. I found that the kids did better if we targeted one fact (like all the 4s) for about 5 minutes at the beginning of each day for as long as it took to get it down, but also as soon as we reviewed that fact group, we flipped the cards around and did the division side, then did the multiplication side again. Huge help. But also work on skip counting and the multiplication chart just to solidify things a bit. But your kids seem fine. I wouldn't stress. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I used math xtramath.com for drill. It's free. My kids have scored extremely high in their testing and they've done Singapore from the beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The percentile rank is compared to everyone taking the test that is in that grade. If peers did really well on the same material, your percentile rank will be more toward the middle. If peers did poorly in comparison, your kids will be bunched near the top. My son once scored perfectly on a section of a standardized test (all questions correct). Guess what? So did a LOT of kids on that one test section--his percentile on that particular section was something like 85% because 85% of kids scored perfectly. In other words, the ceiling (highest possible score) on that test was too low. They didn't put enough stretch into that test to be able to show the limits of individual children's ability. Quick correction, the 85% means that 15% received perfect scores. Percentile refers to doing better than that percentage of test takers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 There's always been a disconnect between the listed grade equivalent and then the nationalized scores and percentile rank. I mean, how can one be at or significantly above grade level (the 10.0 and 10.6 GE) and still be average and in the 60s percentile rank? Anyway, thanks for commiserating. I'm glad to hear other SM families have the same issues. Grade equivalences often cause confusion. Scoring a 10.6 for grade level doesn't mean the student is working on a 10th grade level. It means that if that test were given to a 10th grader, a 10th grader, sixth month would be expected to score at the 50th percentile. Does that make sense? So if your student is say, a 4th grader and scores a grade eq of 9.2, they are completing that material as skillfully as the average 9th grader could be expected to. Which is terrific, but not exactly the same thing as being able to DO ninth grade level work with any proficiency. The only way to figure out what grade level they are actually working at is to give them an above grade level test. So if a 4th grader takes a test intended for eighth graders and scores at or above the 50th percentile across the board, then he is "working at the eighth grade level". So your student is working a year behind grade level in math, but scores better than 66% of his/her peers overall? That sounds like a rousing success to me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Quick correction, the 85% means that 15% received perfect scores. Percentile refers to doing better than that percentage of test takers. Oops, yes. Sorry I stated that backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Echoing the comment that real Asians in Asia do tons and tons of math fact drill starting when the kids are young. For instance one of our Chinese acquaintances said her school drilled multiplication tables starting in 1st grade. If you are using Singapore or some other "Asian" math without drill, IMO you are not doing real Asian math. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 And don't they have a lot of afterschool tutoring/drill/cramming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Where do you fit the drill in? By the time we do the hig guide problems, textbook, workbook and maybe mental math it takes an hour most days to get through it. I think my kids would stage a revolution if I added drill to that as well. But they really need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think my kids would stage a revolution if I added drill to that as well. But they really need it. We do drill in the car when kids were younger, on the way to their recreational gym class or to parents night out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I do car drill actually and iPad games. Just doesn't feel like enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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