At what point do they take ownership?

[dauphin]

I know this can vary with temperament, but at what age do/did your children actually begin to take some pride in ownership of their work? And did it come at the same time for house work as well?

[fairfarmhand]

:laugh:  :laugh: :laugh:  

 

I'm still wating. My oldest is 17.

[albeto.]

Each individual is different. There is no magic formula for this.

 

Sorry!

 

I can think of two schools of thought with this. The conventional school of thought is that through conditioning and habituation, children learn to take pride in their work after experiencing a valued role model being pleased with it. In other words, parent or teacher praises work, child is conditioned over time to internalize that praise.

 

Another school of thought suggest the first tactic is unnecessarily manipulative, and that pride comes with experiencing joy and pleasure in success.

 

If you're finding your children aren't responding to the conventional methodology, perhaps giving them experiences they can "own" themselves would help? Give them some room to be completely autonomous with something, mentor them, guide them, brainstorm with them to figure out solutions, help identify and overcome obstacles. Articulate what you're feeling along the way, vocalize what you see and notice and think. Allow them to do the same. Facilitate success. Rinse. Repeat. 

 

 

[MEmama]

At 2, DS took it upon himself to learn the alphabet and basic phonics. Is that what you mean--to actively and intentionally take on the process of learning?

 

He has always naturally owned his work. But even though that has always been true, I do see it growing even more each year. He is nearly to the point that his work is independent; as it is my role has become reduced to finder of appropriate material for him to absorb and occasional checker of answers. I'm a cheerleader and guidance counselor but not so much a teacher.

 

Ownership of household and personal care is definitely growing as well. At 10, he very intensely gave me a list of things he'll need to know how to do before he leaves home. Cooking, doing laundry, making his bed and ironing were included. I assured him he'll be self sufficient before I see him off to college. ;) As it is, he does his laundry (except he can't reach the dryer since its a stacked unit) and does much of the snow shoveling (good year for it!) among many other tasks he asks to do. He does take pride in his ability to help out in meaningful ways.

 

I guess it's innate for some people and learned for others, or some combination of both. Either way, most people get there eventually.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm sure this varies wildly.  Some adults don't take ownership.  KWIM?

 

 

[lllll]

..

[Garga]

At 2, DS took it upon himself to learn the alphabet and basic phonics. Is that what you mean--to actively and intentionally take on the process of learning?

 

He has always naturally owned his work. But even though that has always been true, I do see it growing even more each year. He is nearly to the point that his work is independent; as it is my role has become reduced to finder of appropriate material for him to absorb and occasional checker of answers. I'm a cheerleader and guidance counselor but not so much a teacher.

 

Ownership of household and personal care is definitely growing as well. At 10, he very intensely gave me a list of things he'll need to know how to do before he leaves home. Cooking, doing laundry, making his bed and ironing were included. I assured him he'll be self sufficient before I see him off to college. ;) As it is, he does his laundry (except he can't reach the dryer since its a stacked unit) and does much of the snow shoveling (good year for it!) among many other tasks he asks to do. He does take pride in his ability to help out in meaningful ways.

 

I guess it's innate for some people and learned for others, or some combination of both. Either way, most people get there eventually.

 

I think your son is an anomaly.  

 

My kids don't even seem to know there's such a thing as doing a job well. This is where homeschool is a weakness for us.  There is no iron to sharpen the iron.  There is no healthy competition among peers.  If I give my son a project to do and he does it shoddily, he doesn't know it's shoddy.  Now, if he was in a classroom and Suzy Q. brought in the same project and it was amazing, then he'd know his was shoddy.  It's hard for me to inspire them to do better if they don't even know what better is. 

 

I'm hoping to get him into a class next year for Spanish.  I hope it works out for him to be in a classroom with other kids seeing them succeed or fail.  I hope it inspires him to understand that there is such a thing as "doing your best" and "pushing yourself." I don't think my kids have a clue there's such as thing as "pushing yourself."

[texasmama]

I only have one child who takes any sort of pride or ownership in the house/his things/his room.  The rest are slobs who don't care.  :laugh:

 

Re: schoolwork, taking pride and ownership varied wildly depending on the child.  At the current time, my college girl takes a varying amount of pride and ownership in her college courses.  My 14 year old takes pride and ownership in almost everything he does regarding schoolwork.  He always gives a good effort.  My 12 year old is a bit behind him but close.  These two are both pretty good at initiative, as well.  My 9 year old dd takes a lot of pride in her art, and that is about all. 

 

My kids have varying levels of maturity and ability.

[KrissiK]

Well, funny you should mention this.... I am so ticked off at my 6th grade DS right now I can hardly think straight. He is so capable. So incredible capable. And yet, this nation report he's working on for history is cr@p. it's a very guided project, with pre-made pages for each part of the report and everything. It's a really basic, though thorough report. His writing is a mess, he corrected his capitals and periods (there weren't any to begin with and he's been through R&S grammar from day 1) with ... A green pen. The rest of it was written in pencil. I just wanted to tear the whole thing up in front of him, but I didn't. I gritted my teeth and told him calmly that a person's work was a reflection of himself. And he should look at his work and tell me what he saw. He didn't answer. So, I don't know. I'm so frustrated. But I do know that he has miles and miles to go. My third grade dd takes a bit of pride in her work. At least her writing is legible.

[Arcadia]

My boys take ownership only for things and subjects they care about :lol:

[Donna]

It depends on the child/person. All of mine have taken ownership/pride in activities they enjoy but only one seems to be that way with everything and has been about certain things since she was very young. As she gets older, I have gradually given her more independence and control with things like instrument practice, schoolwork, and doing things around the house (like baking or making dinner).

[dauphin]

Well, it sounds like we are far from alone, thanks all!

 

I think DD (6th grade) enjoys learning for its own sake but I'm not of a temperament that can take full-bore unschooling. I tried at first and it freaked.me.out. :) So I "strew" where I can (especially science), and try and keep math interesting by switching curriculum as needed (she apparently needs variety in her math instruction in order to maintain interest).

 

But ownership, wanting to do well for its own sake? Taking the initiative to do work if I get derailed with a phone call or a sick sibling? Nuh-uh. She generally does what I 'make' her do but doesn't seem to care about getting through the activities for the week -within the week- :).

 

But I think the exposure to others' experiences on these forums can be a bit of a blessing and a curse. I think that I see similarly capable kids (DD is more or less EG) who have really attacked their area of interest and/or have a passion for learning in that area that has taken them so much farther than DD. I understand that I may be having to back off some of my expectations for where homeschooling would take us. Based on her acceleration in 4th grade when we pulled her out, I figured we would be looking at 2-3 years early graduation. Now I am realizing that for her to do anything exceptional (grade-wise!), she really will need to own it herself. And I think her mind is definitely not on long-term goals or ways to reach higher (e.g., participating in low-key competitions now, like Beta Club and NME/ELE, just to get her feet wet - but she has no interest in higher level competitions like math (even though her acceleration in that subject was a big piece of our decision to homeschool!). I can be okay with all this, but obviously I'm still processing it all! For the record, though, I would describe her as very competitive, but I think I am learning that she really would prefer not to compete at all unless she has a fairly high chance of winning or at least placing very well. And she's not one to seek out opportunities to help herself do well in these competitions (e.g., practicing outside of "school hours" for a spelling bee, reading for the NME/ELE without being asked to...). 

 

I attribute her love of learning somewhat to temperament, perhaps a tiny piece to role modeling in the home, but in large part to coming from a Montessori setting after 4 years. I think that setting definitely contributes to a "learning for its own sake" mentality. On my darker homeschooling days I wonder if she'd be better off in a Montessori setting - am I squashing the love of learning? Perhaps not (definitely not as bad as public school/traditional educational model), but am I cultivating it like they might? IDK. 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Dd has always wanted to do well, but that goal skyrocketed with her first outsourced class. We'll be outsourcing more next semester. The interaction with teachers and other students has been positive for her.

 

With that said, I have few, if any, regrets for waiting this long. 8th grade was a good time for her for many reasons. I do wish I would have given grades or some other method of evaluation earlier. She had asked for them since she was young, but I downplayed their importance. I wish I would have been more understanding of the value they held for her.

[Hoot]

:laugh:  :laugh: :laugh:  

 

I'm still wating. My oldest is 17.

 

Same here.  My only is almost 16.

[wintermom]

I think that taking ownership can involve many things, such as:

 

- organizational skills to keep track of what needs to be done, and giving oneself enough time to do the task

- self-discipline to do a task even if it's not "fun"

- willingness to work at something that may not be mastered or completed the first (several) attempt(s)

- ability to break down a task into smaller bits and focus on those (to recognize when they are good or still need work)

 

 

It takes a lot of maturity and a certain amount of experience to do many of these things. They may not be as well developed for all the academic tasks and household chores a child is expected to do. 

 

For the OP, it might help to be very clear in what your expectations are for your dd, and help her walk through the process step-by-step of completing certain tasks to the level you would like to see. Sometimes a check list with a clear break-down of complex tasks can be really helpful. 

[shinyhappypeople]

For 11 yo DD this has only happened in the past 6 mos. or so, and even then only in certain areas.  I think it is partly to do with her  decision to go to culinary school and open her own restaurant and partly to do with her maturing.  She takes pride in what she's learning as it relates to her succeeding in culinary school.  When I asked her which math unit she wanted to work on next she requested fractions, because "I'll need to know that for cooking."

 

As for housekeeping, chores.... she's getting there.  She's starting to really enjoy organizing her room and making it her own space.

 

 

[albeto.]

But ownership, wanting to do well for its own sake? Taking the initiative to do work if I get derailed with a phone call or a sick sibling? Nuh-uh. She generally does what I 'make' her do but doesn't seem to care about getting through the activities for the week -within the week- :).

 

Well, to be honest, I do the same thing too. I've got laundry and dishes and general upkeep of the house, but there's no immediate pressure so I'm playing on the forums instead. The truth is, as much as I recognize the value of clean laundry, letting it sit for another half hour or so doesn't affect my comfort enough to attend to it. When the thought of putting my chores off is negatively offset by the thought of having to scramble at the end of the day because I've let things go, then I'll do it. People have a different level of tolerance for where to draw that line. It sounds like you want your dd to draw her line according to your comfort level.

 

But I think the exposure to others' experiences on these forums can be a bit of a blessing and a curse. I think that I see similarly capable kids (DD is more or less EG) who have really attacked their area of interest and/or have a passion for learning in that area that has taken them so much farther than DD. I understand that I may be having to back off some of my expectations for where homeschooling would take us. Based on her acceleration in 4th grade when we pulled her out, I figured we would be looking at 2-3 years early graduation. Now I am realizing that for her to do anything exceptional (grade-wise!), she really will need to own it herself. And I think her mind is definitely not on long-term goals or ways to reach higher (e.g., participating in low-key competitions now, like Beta Club and NME/ELE, just to get her feet wet - but she has no interest in higher level competitions like math (even though her acceleration in that subject was a big piece of our decision to homeschool!). I can be okay with all this, but obviously I'm still processing it all! For the record, though, I would describe her as very competitive, but I think I am learning that she really would prefer not to compete at all unless she has a fairly high chance of winning or at least placing very well. And she's not one to seek out opportunities to help herself do well in these competitions (e.g., practicing outside of "school hours" for a spelling bee, reading for the NME/ELE without being asked to...).

 

Well, she's eleven, right? How much seeking out competitions should one expect from a person who doesn't really want to compete? What if you and she found some longer term project, something where she can apply her competitive nature against herself? If she's a mathy kind of person, she can apply this insight to all kinds of things. Does engineering interest her? Computer programing? What about woodworking or sewing or costume design or set design for a local theater? What about playing music? Learning new instruments? Making new instruments? Maybe you can find a meetup in your area that caters to math lovers and see what kinds of activities they provide. If there are any open to the public, you and your dd could drop by.

 

I attribute her love of learning somewhat to temperament, perhaps a tiny piece to role modeling in the home, but in large part to coming from a Montessori setting after 4 years. I think that setting definitely contributes to a "learning for its own sake" mentality. On my darker homeschooling days I wonder if she'd be better off in a Montessori setting - am I squashing the love of learning? Perhaps not (definitely not as bad as public school/traditional educational model), but am I cultivating it like they might? IDK.

 

Join the worry club. ;) Instead of spending too much time on this question, I'd continue to look at her personality, her skills, her abilities, and her desires, and continue to tweak and modify here and there the best you can.

[JenneinCA]

According to my mother I still do not do a good enough job of cleaning or laundry. What this means is that I get the job done to my standards and not to hers.

[Trilliums]

When my kids were young they did take pride in their self directed accomplishments and projects, but not necessarily assigned work.   My son used to love to dig big holes in the yard.  Wow, he was really proud of those holes!  HE also liked building pulleys and making arrows.  Yes, he showed pride in that too.  But, in a book centric assignment?  I cannot recall any early pride from that for him.  Younger son did have different sense of pride and it could center around more academic work.  He loved those project based history books and took pride is executing the instructions just perfectly.  But he also took pride in seeing how well he could create beeswax candles from a set.  He is a person who actually likes to follow directions!  But, pride in writing a paragraph or doing math problems?  That didn't come until much later. 

 

Around grades 8 and 9, I saw them really start to buckle down and demonstrate a willingness to work through tougher material especially in math and science.  For LA, where the answers are more interpretive, they usually did not put in as much effort, honestly, until they took dual enrollment classes.  

 

My kids help out around the house, do chores, etc, but no, they do not demonstrate "pride" in doing them.  Heck, I don't think I do either!  IT is just something that has to be done.  

 

Maybe you are wrestling with the ideal of homeschooling versus the reality?  As homeschoolers our opportunities can be virtually unlimited, but sometimes it seems as though we are just barely scrapping by.  It is easy to feel as though we aren't doing enough because there aren't well defined parameters for what will work for our particular child.  This is the blessing and curse of homeschooling.  

 

About math competitions--my older son is quite strong in math (he is gifted w/LDs btw). He used a variety of math programs also.  Saxon and then AOPS were the best, most productive programs for him.  He ended up taking AP Calc BC at the high school (you can DE here) and his math teacher could not understand why DS wasn't interested in math competitions. They just were not a good fit for him.  So, even though son went on to take calc 3 and linear alg his senior year, he has never participated in a math competition.  He did one science competition which happened to grant him a scholarship at a local university.  He has, however reached out to physics professors and obtained volunteer spot in a lab, but that was not until he was 16 years old.  If the child isn't interested in competitions, I see no need to pressure them into doing them.  

 

I think if you avoid squelching your child's love of learning, you are doing just fine!

 

 

[dauphin]

I think that taking ownership can involve many things, such as:

 

- organizational skills to keep track of what needs to be done, and giving oneself enough time to do the task

- self-discipline to do a task even if it's not "fun"

- willingness to work at something that may not be mastered or completed the first (several) attempt(s)

- ability to break down a task into smaller bits and focus on those (to recognize when they are good or still need work)

 

 

It takes a lot of maturity and a certain amount of experience to do many of these things. They may not be as well developed for all the academic tasks and household chores a child is expected to do. 

 

For the OP, it might help to be very clear in what your expectations are for your dd, and help her walk through the process step-by-step of completing certain tasks to the level you would like to see. Sometimes a check list with a clear break-down of complex tasks can be really helpful. 

 

Yeah, and these aren't really MY strength, either. We're a little short on EF in general around here. It's frustrating.

[dauphin]

Well, to be honest, I do the same thing too. I've got laundry and dishes and general upkeep of the house, but there's no immediate pressure so I'm playing on the forums instead. The truth is, as much as I recognize the value of clean laundry, letting it sit for another half hour or so doesn't affect my comfort enough to attend to it. When the thought of putting my chores off is negatively offset by the thought of having to scramble at the end of the day because I've let things go, then I'll do it. People have a different level of tolerance for where to draw that line. It sounds like you want your dd to draw her line according to your comfort level.

 

 

Well, she's eleven, right? How much seeking out competitions should one expect from a person who doesn't really want to compete? What if you and she found some longer term project, something where she can apply her competitive nature against herself? If she's a mathy kind of person, she can apply this insight to all kinds of things. Does engineering interest her? Computer programing? What about woodworking or sewing or costume design or set design for a local theater? What about playing music? Learning new instruments? Making new instruments? Maybe you can find a meetup in your area that caters to math lovers and see what kinds of activities they provide. If there are any open to the public, you and your dd could drop by.

 

 

Join the worry club. ;) Instead of spending too much time on this question, I'd continue to look at her personality, her skills, her abilities, and her desires, and continue to tweak and modify here and there the best you can.

 

Sorry, my multi quote isn't working tonight.

 

Yes, I agree, much to think about in terms of whether I'm expecting more of her than I reasonably could of myself or another adult...DH is one of those people who WAS motivated and accomplished growing up. I was master of procrastinating until the last minute and that really didn't come back to bite me all that bad until graduate school. But I'd like more for DD than that. I also have a certain amount of work that I, at some point, decided that she HAS to do to "do enough" for this year, and that requires doing a certain amount in a given week so that we don't "fall behind." Now, should that quantity of work always be being re-evaluated? Yes, and she often says she feels like I'm piling too much on her. I think it comes down to: she may be "capable" of it, but should she be expected to do it (all)?

 

However, I don't think it's accurate to say that she doesn't want to compete. She very much enjoys competition, or more precisely, she is strongly motivated to "win" at things! LOL. It just seems to be driven by her immediate circumstances. In other words, when the opportunity comes up, LOOK OUT! (e.g., beating all the other kids (including the boys!) in footraces in PE). We started guitar lessons with younger DD and guess what this DD was ALL ABOUT?!?! - Mastering the guitar (including asking said sister to teach her!) so she could "beat" her 7 year old sister at it. Sigh. But with the other longer-term projects, no, she has no lasting motivation unless there is external feedback or motivation. She even said today that she worked extra hard to get ahead in math because she had a few classmates who equalled her in ability and they all "pushed each other." And that when they ran out of work to do (because they finished work plans faster than their Montessori teacher was writing new ones), they'd create their own little informal math competitions. But "beating herself"? - nope, never held her interest. Even volleyball - she is insanely frustrated with her teammates because they don't seem to have a "drive to win." But it was only this year that she even went to the trouble to work on her OWN skills outside of practices...It's like it just doesn't occur to her to try. Until there's a carrot or someone to beat. So I feel like she'd be more into academic competitions if she had friends who were doing it/talking about it/etc.?!?!? KWIM?

 

 

[Arcadia]

We're a little short on EF in general around here. It's frustrating.

A paper organizer or checklist would help. Then she could see how much she have to do and how much she manage to do in a day.

 

As for being competitive under peer pressure, that's why I outsource German and music. Nothing like peer pressure to kick my boys in gear.

[dauphin]

I don't know that I'd say it's peer pressure so much as "out of sight out of mind"!

[albeto.]

Sorry, my multi quote isn't working tonight.

 

Yes, I agree, much to think about in terms of whether I'm expecting more of her than I reasonably could of myself or another adult...DH is one of those people who WAS motivated and accomplished growing up. I was master of procrastinating until the last minute and that really didn't come back to bite me all that bad until graduate school. But I'd like more for DD than that. I also have a certain amount of work that I, at some point, decided that she HAS to do to "do enough" for this year, and that requires doing a certain amount in a given week so that we don't "fall behind." Now, should that quantity of work always be being re-evaluated? Yes, and she often says she feels like I'm piling too much on her. I think it comes down to: she may be "capable" of it, but should she be expected to do it (all)?

 

However, I don't think it's accurate to say that she doesn't want to compete. She very much enjoys competition, or more precisely, she is strongly motivated to "win" at things! LOL. It just seems to be driven by her immediate circumstances. In other words, when the opportunity comes up, LOOK OUT! (e.g., beating all the other kids (including the boys!) in footraces in PE). We started guitar lessons with younger DD and guess what this DD was ALL ABOUT?!?! - Mastering the guitar (including asking said sister to teach her!) so she could "beat" her 7 year old sister at it. Sigh. But with the other longer-term projects, no, she has no lasting motivation unless there is external feedback or motivation. She even said today that she worked extra hard to get ahead in math because she had a few classmates who equalled her in ability and they all "pushed each other." And that when they ran out of work to do (because they finished work plans faster than their Montessori teacher was writing new ones), they'd create their own little informal math competitions. But "beating herself"? - nope, never held her interest. Even volleyball - she is insanely frustrated with her teammates because they don't seem to have a "drive to win." But it was only this year that she even went to the trouble to work on her OWN skills outside of practices...It's like it just doesn't occur to her to try. Until there's a carrot or someone to beat. So I feel like she'd be more into academic competitions if she had friends who were doing it/talking about it/etc.?!?!? KWIM?

 

Yep, I think I do. In that case, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just continue what you're doing and start to verbalize experiences differently. Rather than talk about competition with regard to winning or losing, start talking about it as a fun sport, fun social activity, or satisfying intellectually. Help her change the way she interprets these events from win/lose only to long term enjoyment for the sake of enjoyment. Articulate when you enjoy doing something for the experience rather than for the prize. Articulate when you see others do that. Don't harp on it (nothing will kill an idea like making it a lesson), but note when it comes up in conversation and see if you can't redirect the focus.

 

We did something like this when one of my kids was about this age. The circumstances were different, but when that advice was given to me by a therapist, it was an eye-opener for me. I thought I'd pass it along in case it helps, but yeah, I get what you mean.

 

 

[Mommy22alyns]

Rebecca is just that Type A, firstborn personality.  She's harder on herself than we are on her.  This kid will groan and roll her eyes over a 96%.  She is deadly serious about her gymnastics training too.  She is there to WORK, not make friends or mess around.  The gym could collapse around her and she'd still be trying to nail her BHSBHS on beam.  I'd say maybe around 9 is when she started to pull it together all-around. She'll be 12 in a month.

 

Sylvia is less so.  She's the baby of the family and fills that role quite nicely, TYVM.  She has disastrously sloppy handwriting and I swear, every day I remind her to write more neatly and it has yet to sink in.   :banghead:   She is very good about getting out and getting started with school, and she will always complete everything in a timely manner, but she's a lot less hard on herself and I don't think she has a competitive bone in her body.  She can be extremely laid-back and just, "Whatever."  She'll be 10 in a month.

[FloridaLisa]

It varies so much with each child and it's not a simple progression. I've had kids that are naturally curious and pursue books and interests completely on their own -- one son who loves everything natural science, another who wrote books on this own from a very young age, another who was musical. But those weren't school subjects that were required. That same ds who loves natural science and is doing great on his own in a science field...just about every nerve in my body was frazzled when he put off finishing 2 online classes until 2 days before he was to go out of the country for the summer. So some things he owned completely and it was a joy to watch, and others required the push to get r done. Same child, different applications of the same interest. 

Another child .... not cooked yet but still simmering. I had to completely, totally step back b/c my push, pull, encouragement, requirements were killing both of us. None of my approaches worked and this child just needed to do it on his terms. I've watched him own more and more over the last 1 1/2 years. 

 

I could go into details about my other kids, but it's usually a mix. Some kids own more than others and very self-motivated. And it may look different with the same child at different stages and for different projects/studies.

 

One other thing about maturity of kids in general I've observed: kids tend to leap forward in growth and then plateau for a while and then zoom forward again.  It's not always a completely linear process. And there can be complete drop-offs (have you visited the high school board at all?).  

 

Bit rambly, but I hope that helps.

Lisa