can we talk about late to launch kids

[hornblower]

Or kids who are almost refusing to launch & seem like they need you to shove them in a cannon & light a fuze?

A couple days ago I posted in a different thread that I think many high schoolers are not necessarily self-directed, don't necessarily have huge goals, and are just kind of plodding along.  That's sort of what I see anyway among many kids, whether in school or at home.

But then a professional used the word "passive"  wrt one of my kids, & may have even used the words too dependent & immature... I'm hazy about the end of that convo because I started to really get my hackles up & I know I stop listening when that happens... but I know I wasn't hearing what I think of as complimentary things.

Obviously it's stuck with me because I've been mulling it for days & feeling increasingly stuck. I think my kids are passive. If I prod them to do stuff, they do it. If I don't, they don't. I keep saying unless they come up with a better idea, if they're just kind of "I don't know" about everything then they might as well stay on the path I've pointed them on & I'll push them along.

But then I think, when do you stop pushing & pulling your kids through life? And am I encouraging passivity by always pushing & pulling? But if stop & they just sit like lumps on a log, well that's pointless, isn't it? At least with my plan they'll have some education..., right?

And then I thought this professional maybe was just prejudiced against homeschooling? Because it seems to me one of the things about late high school & a good peer group is that you kind of get on a group treadmill. Oh, you're taking those courses and prepping for those exams and want to go that college? Ok, I guess, if everyone else is doing it then I'll do that too.... Certainly I've had conversations with adults who report that they kind of floated along with a crowd through high school & early college & it wasn't until maybe year 3 that they really had to think about what the heck they were doing there. For that matter I know others who were in year 4 & still deciding on majors... So in some ways, aren't these people quite passive too?

So I'm not sure what I'm asking.

Wait, no, I know. Tell me I haven't wrecked my kids.

 

[bettyandbob]

I have no answers.

 

I think I am dealing with some immaturity, some anxiety, some depression in my 20 yo, who was a quirky, 2E kid. Currently taking cc classes, but mostly directionless and lacks executive function skills to plan a direction. No amount of prodding has ever worked.

 

My middle child is not gung ho, but is following the typical path of looking at colleges, questioning and researching careers, taking entrance exams, etc. This child is pursuing advanced courses in high school and doing well academically (doesn't have anxiety, depression, exec function, etc to interfere with focus).

 

I really didn't treat these two differently. I think there are internal factors that we as parents cannot change in the person who our child is. So, no I don't think you ruined your children. I have met other people who have adult dc older than mine. Some of them have told me "things finally turned around at..." or "they finally became independent at..." ages like 25 or 27. Honestly, that is very depressing to me.

 

OK so my post doesn't help at all.

[Arcadia]

Passive kids can be less stressful on themselves and their parents :) Doesn't have to have a negative connotation. Passive combine with a weak work ethic is a headache. My younger brother is very passive but he gets his school homework done as a child without nagging and he works well. He just wait for orders/instructions so he would never be in a manager position. He is happy though.

I have some cousins who wasn't sure what they wanted (other than non-bio) which is why they went for an engineering degree and then pick a career in banking, technical marketing. In the US, specialization is much later than my home country which benefits people who are undecided after high school.

Have you consider an outside academic class for your kids? Sometimes it takes getting a not so good outside grade to kickstart time management.

[Penguin]

That treadmill that you refer to is very real. There is constant input in the high school from teachers, peers, and guidance. At least there was at my boys' school. I was a voice among many.

 

And now, one of my friends has an 8th grader in public school planning out his APs because a teacher from the high school came over to the classroom to talk about APs.

 

By contrast, my 8th grader is dependent on me to explain what an AP class is. Our situation is extreme - local kids don't do APs. But still.

 

Because you are the one providing lots of input, it can skew perspective.

 

Well, I don't have answers though. I have two young adults and find plenty to still worry over.

 

I do not think you are ruining them! If my son has a plan then I will listen. If not, we will just keep rolling with mine I suppose!

[hornblower]

betty, on the contrary, your post is very helpful: knowing there's at least 2 of us is a great relief :D

 

[My3girls]

I worry about the same thing.  I think it's normal.  Some kids are go getters and some aren't.  They all need mentors, though, to help steer them in the best direction.  Some just more than others.

[Tsuga]

I think personality is very much something that a child develops. I don't think you can ruin a kid if you love them.

 

I think that passivity / compliance can be very nice at times.

 

It must be frustrating when they get to an age where they have to take something on.

 

Knowing people like this is a huge reason that I'm in the "kick 'em out at 18 it worked for me" camp. My kids know they're out or paying rent at 18. I don't know if that will motivate them. It sure as hell motivated me.

 

Nothing makes your mom's look nice, or reminds you to get a job, like that b!+©4 Reality.

 

But then, she started telling us this very early. Like, in kindergarten. Someone probably has a $25k therapist's bill because their mom used this approach, though. But hey... I think my mom would say at that point, "At least it's not my bill."

[Laurel-in-CA]

The anxiety doesn't have to come in high school. My oldest always knew what she wanted to study, but now that college is over and she has her BFA, there is GREAT anxiety associated with trying to find a job to pay rent and student loans. She's trying, but it looks a lot like treading water.

 

OTOH, my high school senior loudly declares she has no interest in college and just wants to lifeguard. Moving out, ever? No plans for that, LOL. Since she won't be a full-time student, though, she'll be needing to pay US something every month....amount calculated to give her incentive to move forward.

 

My ds, the middle one of the three, went to CC to get his general ed done at our insistence, without knowing what he wanted to study or where. At 20 he now has a plan, a major, and applications in for transfer to a couple 4-year schools. The extra time and expanded peer group and challenging academics were very good for him, and also helped him appreciate the effort put in on homeschooling him.

[elegantlion]

I worry about the same thing. I think it's normal. Some kids are go getters and some aren't. They all need mentors, though, to help steer them in the best direction. Some just more than others.

My son is passive, highly opinionated and logical though. My hope is that he finds a few mentors along the way, and keeps me as one too. :)

[hepatica]

This whole thread is so timely for me. Just had a tearful conversation with my 14yo DD about how I need her to start pushing herself because I can't keep pushing her along. She just says none of this school stuff matters to her. She pushes herself in her non-school related passion and isn't that enough? She likes history, but it's still so much work for me to get any substantial output from her. She's good at math, but doesn't care enough to work hard at it. I have often felt like being around peers in school who don't even question going to college would move her along at that general level of expectation. I am so tired of being the motivating force behind all her schoolwork, and I am so tired of worrying that she is not doing enough to give herself options when she does wake up and decide she wants to do something. 

 

I think this is even more salient for me because I was a desperately hard-working student. I always wanted to take the hardest classes offered. I figured if someone else could do it, then so could I. And, I genuinely like school and academic learning generally. I went to graduate school because I didn't want to work, I just wanted to stay in school. So I honestly have a hard time understanding her passivity. 

 

So, I don't have any advice, but I am right there with you. Maybe I will look back in a few years and see all this as just a stage. Maybe I should have more faith in who she is and her ability to find her way in the world. Maybe I should just stop reading here and listening to all the exceptionalism. Wish I knew the answer. Maybe there is no answer. 

[RootAnn]

Some thoughts as a mom, as a sister, and as an observer of friends... I have a couple self-driven kids & some that are definitely 'passive' (except in their area of interest, which is almost always non-academic in standard terms).

 

One girl & two of the boys in my family were driven to get the heck out of the house as soon as possible. We all took different ways of doing that and two found wings & a path while another stumbled along aimlessly for a long time. So, just having motivation to get out of the home didn't necessarily work (although, Binip, it is always worth a try). One that stayed at home had incredible motivation to succeed but just needed to have that safety net behind her. Of the five of us, I would say that three are incredibly motivated, pushy people and two are relatively passive unless they are passionate about the subject. Most of us were late bloomers, some incredibly so. I think it is a personality & genetic related thing in many ways as my father was a late bloomer in many ways. (My mother tried to push us and had some degree of success. But at some point, her influence wasn't enough to keep us moving past our comfort zone.)

 

One of my best friends IRL bemoaned how much pushing she had to do when her ds#1 was in 7th and 8th. He's in 10th now and is pretty self-motivated. It is really inspiring to see. She's now bemoaning ds#2 who has to be pushed along. How much is personality and how much is a stage? I don't know. For that one, probably both.

 

I know that if you have only had self-motivated (or bright, or whatever) kids, I don't know if you really understand people who don't have them. I can only offer  :grouphug:  and say that how they are right now may not always be how they will be and that you can only do so much. Don't kill yourself pushing, okay? Push as much as you feel you can, but don't feel bad if you let them be stuck in the mud for awhile. They might need to gaze at the sky for awhile to realize the wings on their back can work and it is easier for them to use them than to keep being poked & prodded forward by you. 

 

[FWIW, I was not self-motivated - except to make sure I wasn't in That House one minute longer than I had to be. My mother shamed me into many things & drove me nearly into depression and horrible decisions because of her need to see me "succeed." Her actions turned out different with each of her kids. None of us would be who we are today were it not for her, for good or evil.]

[Nan in Mass]

Some teens seem to sleep through their teen years. Having had both the sleeping teens and the angry teens, I can tell you that I prefer the sleepy kind. They both are worrisome. : ). You might have to push both through their schoolwork.

 

There is a reason the age of full majority is 21. There is a reason the phrase late bloomer exists. We don,t all magically mature at a specific age.

 

We told ours they were welcome to continue to live at home, but that everyone has to work full time, go to school full time, or do both part time, and working adults contribute to the household. For what it is worth, our 27yo lives at home. He is an engineer, so not a freeloader. It is nice having other adults in the household to help with chores and driving and eldercare and the little cousins I mind while my sister works. It improves the standard of living of everyone to pool resources. Our parents gave us a good solid start in life and we are glad to be able to do the same. I,m sure our sons will want their own households eventually, but in the meanwhile, this is a very comfortable, and not too uncommon way of arranging things in our town.

 

Comparing my children,s friends, it seems like a certain percent of young people drift until about 25, when they get their act together and decide to do something. By then, some of them are pretty beat up and damaged by life. I know a few girls who have been in bad relationships or been assaulted and boys who now have criminal records or been in jail. I can almost tell by looking at their faces when they are 18 or so whether they will be ok or not. The not ok ones have immature faces. Not just young but immature. The ones like that who have been ok have had family support. Their families may not have been exactly happy to have a late bloomer on their hands, but they coaxed and prodded them through high school and then found something useful for them to do until they grew up a bit more. Most of them had grown up by 25. That doesn't,t mean they were suddenly model citizens with a great work ethic, but if they weren't too damaged by life and had some self discipline, they were more or less grow up. Their faces have caught up with their bodies.

 

Not sure that is helpful. I don,t know how old your child is? I would just make it clear that everyone has to work and contribute to the family and community, whether the work is unpaid volunteer work, family care, studying, or holding a job, and ease their mind about the scary parts of being grownup as best you can, and continue to help them develop the self-discipline to do their job. I,d tell them that every job has parts that are no fun, and that work is called work for a reason, and that everyone works jobs they don,t like during some periods of their lives, but that there are good things about being grownup, too. And tell them I loved them. And wait.

 

Nan

[Pawz4me]

My youngest DS is . . .  not proactive.  I like that better than passive. ;)

 

On paper he's a high stats kid -- In an early college program (that we had to nudge him into) and at the end of this semester at just 16 years old he'll have 22 college credits and will likely still be maintaining his current 4.0 GPA.  He did pretty darn well on the PSAT with no practice other than sometimes looking at the question of the day.  He procrastinates, but other than that he's great about doing his school work.  Set him on a path and say "go that way" and he does okay.  Picking a path for himself?  He's not great at that.  At all.

 

But so far he's quite happy to go where directed, and so far he seems quite content to let DH and me do the steering.   We walk a fine line between planning a path for him and not being too controlling.  But if we don't plan we worry about where his floating along will take hm.  We don't care if he lives with us forever, but he will either be in school or working.  Not holing up in his bedroom playing games all day.

 

The one thing he has been opinionated about is that he's quite adamant he doesn't want to go away to college.  He says no dorms for him.  He's perfectly content to let us investigate local options for him.

 

FWIW, DH and I have had lots of conversations about this, and we both realized that we were floaters until our mid-20's or so.  DH lucked into what turned out to be a great career.  It kind of fell in front of him in high school and he thought "it's as good as anything else" and ran with it.  And it turned out very well.  I went with a career that I didn't love but knew I'd always be able to get a job and provide for myself.  So in hindsight we realize both of us were kind of floaters, too.  It worked out.

[madteaparty]

Just listening in. I have a very passive but also compliant 5th grader. I do wonder what happens when the compliance dissipates and the passivity remains. Reading here is crazy-making sometimes when you have a go-with-the flow kid.

(We have no trails, rabbit or otherwise. I set what we will study and we mostly study it. The end).

[The Girls' Mom]

*waving from the frustration train*

My 18 yo is going to be a very slow to launch child I think.  She will not do one thing to move herself forward without that pushing and pulling.  Yes, she would absolutely sit and become a lump.  She is supposed to be looking for a part-time job.  I've had to tell her every single place to apply to, remind her several times to apply, physically take her there about half the time, etc.  She has a car and the time.  

Same with school.  She has to pick a major for CC.  ANY major, I didn't care...she just needed a goal. Because of it being free if she goes now, we feel like she has to go.  It was like pulling teeth.  It wasn't that she didn't want to go to school, it was that she just doesn't want to make those choices, or grow up at all.  

I actually told her the other day to quit asking permission for everything and just go have some sort of life! She looked horrified.  

I will admit, I have trouble even relating to that mindset.  I moved out of my parents home at 16, worked full time by 17, and was running my own household.  I know she isn't me, and I try not to think about it that way, but a hint of independence would be nice.  Her younger sisters even find her a mystery, as they can't wait to move out! lol.  

[Hoot]

Just listening in. I have a very passive but also compliant 5th grader. I do wonder what happens when the compliance dissipates and the passivity remains. Reading here is crazy-making sometimes when you have a go-with-the flow kid.

(We have no trails, rabbit or otherwise. I set what we will study and we mostly study it. The end).

 

Same here, though mine is 10th.  It drives me CRAZY that DS is so passive.  He has interests, but he doesn't care much about passionately pursuing them.  He's content to wait for things to fall in his lap (and miraculously, they often do) and to let me set the course for school while he just plods along after.  I've tried handing him the reigns, and yet even with lots of preparation, the end result is something akin to a deer in headlights or a tortoise slowly trudging toward the edge of a cliff.  To be honest, I find this kind of indifference quite exhausting and frustrating.  For as long as I can remember, I have been a LEARN ALL THE THINGS kind of person.  I want to know everything.  I loved school.  I love learning.  I think and wrestle with ideas all. the. time.  Dealing with a kid who really could take it or leave it, quite frankly makes me sad.  It is a constant struggle for me to parent and teach him in a way that doesn't overwhelm him but still keeps him engaged.    

[Guest2]

I have no answers either. I think my DS1 required lots ( and i mean LOTS) of prodding and pushing to get through high school. Actually , he always required this now that I think about it. The senior year was especially rough as he realized he would be actually leaving home the year after. ( the one exception was his online AP class). He would find some elements of school interesting, but really would rather do most anything else. We even moved his desk into my sightline as I worked with younger kids, so I could see him actually working. He still did far less than he should have.

 

As parents, we set up the college visits, set up deadlines for him to get his application essays done,ect. I had to sit next to him when he applied online to the two schools, and housing. After being admitted, we helped him plan his 4 1/2 academic years with classes. Some people were appalled at this. They thought that was too much handholding...and I'm not saying they were wrong. My son kind of went into brain freeze about leaving. He would still be home wishing he were in college and I would be pushing and pulling for him to get some sort of job, if we hadn't.

 

I just want to encourage you. DS1 is thriving in college. The high school senior that had calc papers scattered everywhere and lost a test because he was so disorganized ...loves college. Ok, I know he loves the social aspect most, but that kind of energizes him. He is not a partier, but has found his tribe. Hopefully he can ramp up the studies as the work load increases. Right now he has a big carrot of spring break Europe trip with his honors group (GPA of 3.5 required). After the carrot, hopefully he can find motivation elsewhere or will have momentum built up. I can only hope.

Edited to add: Just found out he was on the Dean's list for first semester. Who'd have thought?

[Nan in Mass]

...It drives me CRAZY that DS is so passive. He has interests, but he doesn't care much about passionately pursuing them. He's content to wait for things to fall in his lap (and miraculously, they often do) and to let me set the course for school while he just plods along after. I've tried handing him the reigns, and yet even with lots of preparation, the end result is something akin to a deer in headlights or a tortoise slowly trudging toward the edge of a cliff. To be honest, I find this kind of indifference quite exhausting and frustrating. For as long as I can remember, I have been a LEARN ALL THE THINGS kind of person. I want to know everything. I loved school. I love learning. I think and wrestle with ideas all. the. time. Dealing with a kid who really could take it or leave it, quite frankly makes me sad. It is a constant struggle for me to parent and teach him in a way that doesn't overwhelm him but still keeps him engaged.

We,ve noticed this mismatch between early maturing, high energy, go-get-er parents and their more laid back, happy-go-lucky children. It causes a lot of heartache and worry. Hugs.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I have no answers either. I think my DS1 required lots ( and i mean LOTS) of prodding and pushing to get through high school. Actually , he always required this now that I think about it. The senior year was especially rough as he realized he would be actually leaving home the year after. ( the one exception was his online AP class). He would find some elements of school interesting, but really would rather do most anything else. We even moved his desk into my sightline as I worked with younger kids, so I could see him actually working. He still did far less than he should have.

 

As parents, we set up the college visits, set up deadlines for him to get his application essays done,ect. I had to sit next to him when he applied online to the two schools, and housing. After being admitted, we helped him plan his 4 1/2 academic years with classes. Some people were appalled at this. They thought that was too much handholding...and I'm not saying they were wrong. My son kind of went into brain freeze about leaving. He would still be home wishing he were in college and I would be pushing and pulling for him to get some sort of job, if we hadn't.

 

I just want to encourage you. DS1 is thriving in college. The high school senior that had calc papers scattered everywhere and lost a test because he was so disorganized ...loves college. Ok, I know he loves the social aspect most, but that kind of energizes him. He is not a partier, but has found his tribe. Hopefully he can ramp up the studies as the work load increases. Right now he has a big carrot of spring break Europe trip with his honors group (GPA of 3.5 required). After the carrot, hopefully he can find motivation elsewhere or will have momentum built up. I can only hope.

We walked all three of ours through the college app process. Whether you can get through that on your own has no bearing on college or career success, in our experience. The one who needed the most help was oldest, who had already been working as a plumber for three years. He said he wanted to go to college for engineering at the same college his younger brother was looking at and we made the rest as easy as possible for him. He wrote the essay and filled out the app and went to the appointments and interviews but I did all the scheduling, info finding, driving, and sat next to him when he filled out the forms. He was scared and frozen. Once in school, he did fine. Over the course of the four years, he became more and more able to handle his own paperwork and finances and scheduling. He,s doing great as an engineer now, advancing in his career and getting further education without us helping. He lives with us so it would be easy to lean on us, but he isn't depending on us any more than we are on him, at this point. I scheduled his last dr.'s apt., but when he noticed my car needed inspecting, he called and arranged for me to take it in. It,s pretty even now. By the way, he says that he thinks everyone should wait until 21 to go to college. I certainly should have waited a few years. If at the beginning if senior year, you still can,t imagine how your child is going to manage living on his own, why not consider a gap year of travel or volunteer work or a job? You can apply to college and then tell them you want to defer, or you can wait and apply when you are ready to go. Just check to find out how financial aid works if you defer.

 

Youngest told us repeatedly that as far as he was concerned the world was going to end when he went off to college. We felt like that, too, at that age and sympathized and agreed that it seemed like that but it would probably be ok and if it still wasn't after a year of trying college, he could always come home and do something else for awhile before trying again. It took him less than a week to decide he adored college. : ) this is the same son who did all those independent projects in high school.

 

Some of this is a matter of family culture, too. Some families expect kids to be gone at 18 and have no intention of offering anything after that age, and other families tend to stay together even as adults in a more extended family situation, and some land in between. It just is hard when the first type winds up with a late bloomer or the second type winds up with an independent adventurer.

 

Nan

[hepatica]

By the way, he says that he thinks everyone should wait until 21 to go to college.

 

That reminds me that I came to this very same conclusion in my years as a college professor!

 

I had the opportunity to teach at a branch campus of a state university when I was in graduate school. The students were so much more interested in what they were doing and learning - and they were mostly older, returning students.

 

Funny thing is, my DD is not really scared about going out on her own. She is fiercely independent and quite good at taking care of herself. She just isn't interested in school right now. But, she loves to learn things she is interested in. She will talk your ear off about "net neutrality" or heteronormativity (not exactly common topics of conversation for 14 year olds). I should really have more faith in her. She will likely navigate the world better than I have. 

 

I also remember reading, I think in the Eide's book Dyslexic Advantage, that dyslexic kids are frequently late bloomers academically. They flounder around in high school and don't really find their groove until later in their 20s, and often thrive in college or beyond. Sometimes I think  the output takes so much more effort for her than it does for "neurotypical" kids that it justs exhaust her. Hard to be a "go-getter" when you are always struggling to just keep up.

[laughing lioness]

Um-- look around. We know TONS Of kids who were public schooled who are sortakinda going to college, working vague and stoopid jobs and living at home, just like some homeschoolers. We know homeschool and public school kids who went IVY, military, missionary, etc. etc.

All 3 of our older kids lived at home into their 20's. All of them launched debt free, too.

Our current live at home 20 yr goes to college full time, works at a living wage job, goes to the capital to work with certain Policy councils and is getting through U debt free.

 

Dependent, lazy, unmotivated, passive? Maybe. Or maybe they just know a good thing when they see it. Our older kids loved their childhood and rather resented the harsh realties of the adult world when they got into it. 

 

[Nan in Mass]

Hornblower - I've always thought it was ironic that the people who are accusing our late bloomers of passivity and labeling our extended family culture as unhealthy tend to be the same ones who are full of advice on how to overcome the damage done by one's parents.  Sigh.

 

Nan

[lllll]

..

[RootAnn]

Youngest told us repeatedly that as far as he was concerned the world was going to end when he went off to college. 

 

While I couldn't wait to get out of the house, I also was sure I would die before actually leaving home. Looking back, it was my inner anxiety protecting me from freaking out completely. I don't think anyone knew how scared I was about going away even thought I greatly desired it. It was so "different" that I didn't think it would ever happen. So I completely understand that.

[hornblower]

ok, so I'm feeling a lot better.

(redacted for privacy)

I did get  this weird sense that if presented with a kid who was 'troubled/using drugs/runaway' etc, then the ptb would be more ok with that. They're expecting that, kwim?  They're not expecting an attachment parented teen/YA who genuinely likes their family.

(redacted for privacy)

Oh & Nan, we have the same thing as far as kids being always welcome here. Partly it's just my family values, but also because we're in the city with the second most expensive real estate/median income in the world. It's downright illogical to shove kids out of the nest to spend outrageous money on housing here...

[lllll]

:grouphug:

[Nan in Mass]

Hornblower - it took us awhile to recognize it but we now talk about becoming frozen when faced with something stressful or scary or difficult. My husband and I do it and our children inherited it and picked friends and girlfriends who also do it. I wish to goodness we had recognized it a long time ago, but better late than never. We,ve started telling each other when we are frozen and helping each other unfreeze by sitting with someone while they get started on something, or doing it with them, or going with them to keep them company. Even just talking about what you plan to do today and at the end of the day talking about whether you managed to get what you wanted done helps. Giving it a name was helpful. I think I was probably frozen in panic at the thought of becoming an adult from about 16yo until about 25. Sigh. I happened to mention it to a chiropractor friend and he told me that science is now recognizing that it should be "fight, flight, or freeze" rather than just "fight or flight". I found that comforting.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Hornblower, the more I think about your appointment, the more unhelpful I think those people were.  Ug.  It would take me months to stop being upset, which I'm sure isn't the right response, but I just wanted to tell you that I think you should try to ignore them and see if you can find someone who will be more helpful about the anxiety rather than ignorant about some of the ways close, loving families can work.  Ug ug ug.  Advice on coping skills, comfort, reassurance that many people find growing up scary... that's what you deserved, not some outdated weirdness.  I've run into people like that.  They look at my kids and with a sort of sneer, ask them how they like being with mommy all day.  So far, my children have put a quick stop to that by telling the questioner that they like being able to traipse around Tokyo on their own midschool year and take community college classes in high school. The quickness of their answers makes me suspect they've dealt with lots of grownups like this.  It so happens that mine have answers that make adults evaporate quickly.  At a different stage of their education, they would have been more defenseless.  How do you explain homeschooling family dynamics to someone who obviously has one idea only of what healthy family dynamics look like?  And a less than ideal one, at that?  How insular!  Maybe we should ship them all off on world tours with cultural history and anthropology reading to do at night.  Ug.

 

Nan

[Mom22ns]

betty, on the contrary, your post is very helpful: knowing there's at least 2 of us is a great relief :D

 

 

 

More than 2. At least 3 :).

 

I'm not prepared to dive into this thread right now. We're struggling too deeply with these issues right now. I have no advice. Right now it seems that when my passive child decides to take any control it is just to veer wildly for the ditch, apologize, revert to passivity and wait for me to fix everything. I'm tired. Worn. Discouraged. I want him to find the nerve to take the wheel and yet I wish he would slide over and really begin steering rather than just making grabs for it.

 

As I said, I'm not prepared for this thread. I adore my passive, not quite ready, considering how to grow up ds. But it has been a rough year and the bumpy ride is not nearing any end that I can see yet.

 

Thanks for all the intelligent and encouraging words Nan. 

[regentrude]

Coming late to this thread.... sorry this is going to be long, so many thoughts.

 

I think the kind of "passive" you describe seems more normal and typical to me than the extremely driven and ambitious kids... those are the rare ones.

I believe a huge part of it is not knowing what to do, and not really feeling in a position to make life choices. For a schooled teen, nothing would be expected but to follow directions while in high school, because the path is laid out for them, and many end up in college the same way, because it is the thing to do, and the natural progression, and many freshmen do not have a clear picture what they want to do. They may discover in college, may change majors, may find focus - or drop out.

 

Since homeschooled kids have more input into their education, I think we expect them to be more engaged - but the truth is, very many teens, especially boys, are not particularly excited about school. So that may be "normal". Where my DD had clear academic goals, was planning courses etc, DS is content to do as he is told. I have come to realize that him not being excited about it is normal, not a shortcoming of my home education or of his character. He gets excited about his non-academic interest, and that makes me feel good - I would be concerned if the kid was not excited about anything at all. As for the future? He might go to college just to get some sort of degree... or he may develop a clearer picture in a few years. But at an age where his ambitious sister was already mapping out her college majors, he has no realistic plan. And that is OK.

 

And the "freezing" in the face of decision making is something that happens even to the most driven and ambitious. We had difficult moments during DD's college search process, and I realized that making those decisions puts a big pressure on the young people and that "freezing" (or procrastinating and not wanting to touch the application stuff, for example), is a perfectly logical response. It takes a lots of guts and determination to make the leap.

I myself call it "sequential worrying" - I have difficulties thinking too far ahead if there is still a closer problem to be solved.

 

Lastly, Nan's words really resonate with me. I want to be the rock for my children. I want them to know that they will always have a home with us, no conditions (other than being a productive member of society in some way, if they are able). I was always ambitious, planning and successful - but I felt a deep emotional security from knowing that I had this safety net, that no matter what happened, my parents would be there to support me. I want my kids to be able to rest in this knowledge that they have the time they need to figure out what they want to do and that we are here to lean on. So, for me the 18-and-out philosophy is quite unthinkable. 

This support may not be needed by all, but I am convinced it can make the difference for a floundering young person who needs to get his bearings in the world.

 

ETA: Living at home rent free does not a slacker make. My sister became a single mom of a child with birth defect shortly after high school. She lived at home for several years with her child. the first year, all she did was care for her baby. The second year, she started university... and eventually became a doctor. Not "tough love" was what she needed - what she needed, and had, was a supportive family who shared the burden.

[Nan in Mass]

Regentrude - I love your post.  You said some things I was trying to say much better.  Yes - ABLE.  We've had ones who just needed to be home to heal up.  We have an extra one now living with us rent free.  She needed some breathing space to get her life in order.  Then she started college.  She contributes to the family.  She works and goes to school.  Definitely not slacking.  She lived on her own before she came to us and got pretty beaten up in the process.  She's doing great now.  It is fun to see her blooming. : )  Living with us rent free after college is an easy way to help our children pay off their school loans quickly.  I lived with my parents when I was sick.  I will never forget my father, when my husband lost his job, telling me that if all else failed, we could just come live with them and rent the house out to help pay the mortgage so we didn't lose it.  Regentrude, that safety net took much of the worry out of a very scary situation.  I want to be there for my children the same way. -Nan

[hornblower]

It's been so good to read this thread. I'm going to clutch it to my chest & re-read it again & again later. 

 

:grouphug:

[VANURSEPRAC]

I have been glued to this thread,  boy oh boy can I relate.

My own 11 y/o daughter is very compliant for what I require. She is starting to buck just a tad with eye rolling and sighs occasionally. I have answered this by increasing her "dead head"
 downtime spent watching anime and Youtube. She is very passive with some Executive dysfunction. I often joke that I will have to go to college with her. I currently am pushing and prodding her to advance in math by a year (she in 6th grade public school). My other child would have told me to go jump in a lake.

[The Girls' Mom]

I just wanted to add...

We aren't pushing our newly adult child to move out. In fact, all of our kids have a standing invitation to live here for as long as they like.  We even realize that in today's economy, that may even mean after they get married!  However, I do want to see a spark of independence in my 18 year old.  I don't want to have to do all the thinking and deciding for her as she's making the transition from high school.  

[Tsuga]

I would like to clarify, since it was mentioned upthread, that I know exactly zero people in therapy or who hate their parents, from the vast majority forced to get a job. It was a bad joke because you know how the upper class has therapy for everything. I am sorry.

 

I will say that I don't know anyone who got assaulted as a result of being asked by their parents to contribute to rent or get out. I think that is a stretch. The vast majority of people who get jobs at 14-18 and pay rent and who go out into the work are just fine and I would not have recommended it if I thought it was a sure path to homelessness and prostitution or some other awful life.

[mamato4]

This conversation reminds me of  a former coworker.  Her son went to a university on the west coast.  After one year, he dropped out of college and mainly just worked at any job he could find (all low-paying.)  After a few years of this, he visited his sister at her university and met this girl who became his girlfriend.  To make the long story short, he wound up going to the school so much, he took classes there and finally found his true academic love - physics.  He did break up with the girl but continued on with his studies and now has a PhD in physics. I would never have imagined that in a million years based on what I know about him through his mom.

 

Definitely a late-bloomer but I had always admired my co-worker for her patience with him.  More so now that I have my own late-bloomers.  Yes, I want to be a rock for them always.

[Reefgazer]

My kids are still young (10 and 12), but I'm already getting a glimpse of some of what you mention.  I've got one kid passive and the other a go-getter.  Same parents, so I think it's personality-driven.  The go-getter loves school and is enthusiastic about everything, wants to have her hand in every pie available, is up for anything, planning college at 12, etc.  She is influenced to take co-op classes based on what her co-op friends are taking.  Mr. Passivity could not care less about what his co-op friends are taking and would be content to read and play with his Legos and Snap-Circuits all day.  Won't join anything without a push.  So if he can't find something that interests him, I give him a shove and see if he'll be interested and so on.  He does exactly as he's told, no more and no less, and does not like school and would rather be doing something else.   

Or kids who are almost refusing to launch & seem like they need you to shove them in a cannon & light a fuze?

A couple days ago I posted in a different thread that I think many high schoolers are not necessarily self-directed, don't necessarily have huge goals, and are just kind of plodding along.  That's sort of what I see anyway among many kids, whether in school or at home.

But then a professional used the word "passive"  wrt one of my kids, & may have even used the words too dependent & immature... I'm hazy about the end of that convo because I started to really get my hackles up & I know I stop listening when that happens... but I know I wasn't hearing what I think of as complimentary things.

Obviously it's stuck with me because I've been mulling it for days & feeling increasingly stuck. I think my kids are passive. If I prod them to do stuff, they do it. If I don't, they don't. I keep saying unless they come up with a better idea, if they're just kind of "I don't know" about everything then they might as well stay on the path I've pointed them on & I'll push them along.

But then I think, when do you stop pushing & pulling your kids through life? And am I encouraging passivity by always pushing & pulling? But if stop & they just sit like lumps on a log, well that's pointless, isn't it? At least with my plan they'll have some education..., right?

And then I thought this professional maybe was just prejudiced against homeschooling? Because it seems to me one of the things about late high school & a good peer group is that you kind of get on a group treadmill. Oh, you're taking those courses and prepping for those exams and want to go that college? Ok, I guess, if everyone else is doing it then I'll do that too.... Certainly I've had conversations with adults who report that they kind of floated along with a crowd through high school & early college & it wasn't until maybe year 3 that they really had to think about what the heck they were doing there. For that matter I know others who were in year 4 & still deciding on majors... So in some ways, aren't these people quite passive too?

So I'm not sure what I'm asking.

Wait, no, I know. Tell me I haven't wrecked my kids.

 

 

[Nan in Mass]

Grin, but reefgazer, your son IS exhibiting interests, strong interests. An interest in Legos and snap circuits equals an interest in engineering. At the moment, anyway. His interests may shift, of course, as he grows. I would make sure he has someone who can explain the inner workings of things, someone who makes him speculate and reason some of it out before telling him, a good math program, someone to show him how to build things and use tools, and gobs and gobs of time with those Legos, just in case this is a direction he chooses to go. Engineering is sort of like music, art, horses, or one of the other hands-on pursuits - it takes massive amounts of experience/ practice and you are better off beginning to acquire that as a child. I think, anyway... Those things will stand him in good stead no matter what he decides to do, so it can,t hurt, anyway.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I would like to clarify, since it was mentioned upthread, that I know exactly zero people in therapy or who hate their parents, from the vast majority forced to get a job. It was a bad joke because you know how the upper class has therapy for everything. I am sorry.

 

I will say that I don't know anyone who got assaulted as a result of being asked by their parents to contribute to rent or get out. I think that is a stretch. The vast majority of people who get jobs at 14-18 and pay rent and who go out into the work are just fine and I would not have recommended it if I thought it was a sure path to homelessness and prostitution or some other awful life.

I, too, made a bad comment upthread, thinking the same thing about rich people and therapy. I shouldn't have. I do know people in therapy partly because of their parents. They are the exact opposite of rich and so are the parents. I also know a rich young adult who are in therapy even though the parents tried everything they could think of and then some to help them navigate into adulthood. And are paying for the therapy now. Sigh.

 

I guess this is as much a matter of community culture as it is family culture. Maybe even more so. At any rate, it is too complicated to be too judge mental about. One thing I think we probably can all agree about is that it is a good idea to tell ones children early on that grownups all work if they are able.

 

Nan

[Tsuga]

 

Every single one said something along the lines of, "Live your own life and be true to yourself."

 

I wish I could poll dead people. 90-year-olds are all happy they're still alive. Plus these are not people rotting in the worst of the worst nursing homes.

 

None of them are going to say, "don't go into the arts, too many artists kill themselves and a life of poverty is really horrible". None of them are going to say, "You know, I really think that if I wouldn't have quit my job at IBM as a secretary to have kids, I would not have bedsores right now. I could have saved for a better place with a full-time physical therapist on hand."

 

I'll bet you'd get a lot more advice like, "Don't ride a motorcycle!" or "Never start drinking ever!" or "Do NOT marry that person--listen to your parents!" if dead people could talk.

 

 

[elegantlion]

I was probably a late to launch kid, probably combined with a giant amount of stubbornness too. 

 

One thing I wish had been conveyed to me was that it's okay to not jump into college at 18 if you're not ready. You can still try at 21 or 23 or 27. I vaguely attempted going to college when I was 25, but the financial aid office was unhelpful and I figured it was because I was too old. I see students in classes almost apologizing or feeling out of place because they're 25 or 30. Why? I don't know. It's not failure to try again later. 

I'm also not against using college (not a costly one) for a placeholder for a couple of years. Take some classes, decide along the way. Part of my issue with not attending college is that you have to be careful who you end up hanging around. I didn't go to college and most of my friends that didn't go were content to not worry about the future and live for the weekend. Not saying you have to go to college to be around forward thinking people, but it's harder to find new friends when all your old ones ended up leaving for school. I eventually found my groove and some good jobs along the way and something to do besides spend my weekends partying. I don't regret not attending college then, but I'd probably found a better use of time as I like learning, I just hated school. 

 

Ds may take 5-6 years to earn a degree. I'm okay with that. 

[Reefgazer]

Oh, we pegged him for an engineer from a very young age.  He and my DH build and DH is all about explaining that nonsense to him!  Two peas in a pod, they are....I do not have the tendency toward math that DH and DS have, but I am trying not to let my limitations become his (I have him in Beast Academy and Saxon now, we'll likely move to AoPS in a few years, and I'll probably outsource more for him than for DD in order to keep him challenged).

Grin, but reefgazer, your son IS exhibiting interests, strong interests. An interest in Legos and snap circuits equals an interest in engineering. At the moment, anyway. His interests may shift, of course, as he grows. I would make sure he has someone who can explain the inner workings of things, someone who makes him speculate and reason some of it out before telling him, a good math program, someone to show him how to build things and use tools, and gobs and gobs of time with those Legos, just in case this is a direction he chooses to go. Engineering is sort of like music, art, horses, or one of the other hands-on pursuits - it takes massive amounts of experience/ practice and you are better off beginning to acquire that as a child. I think, anyway... Those things will stand him in good stead no matter what he decides to do, so it can,t hurt, anyway.

Nan

 

[Nan in Mass]

Oh, we pegged him for an engineer from a very young age.  He and my DH build and DH is all about explaining that nonsense to him!  Two peas in a pod, they are....I do not have the tendency toward math that DH and DS have, but I am trying not to let my limitations become his (I have him in Beast Academy and Saxon now, we'll likely move to AoPS in a few years, and I'll probably outsource more for him than for DD in order to keep him challenged).

 

Well, having had two like this, I can't tell you it is easy, but with clear cut interests like that, it is fairly straight forward.  All my most recent posts and a good bit of my old posts (especially the panicky ones about keeping up with him lol) will be at least sort of applicable. : )  My top piece of advice for anyone with a child who might be headed for engineering school is to keep in mind that from pre-algebra up, their public school competition is spending half to three quarters of an hour (if not longer) watching the teacher solve problems and then is going home to do about an hour of problems on their own.  If your child is blasting through their math program at the rate of half an hour a day, you probably need to add significantly more problems (unless they are brilliant).  And if they are getting them all, then you need to add harder problems.  There should be at least some problems that stump them.  They won't learn proper problemsolving skills if there aren't.  A few more pieces of advice...  Engineering schools rely heavily on calculus and physics grades when they decide who they are going to admit.  Make sure those grades are good.  They rely on them for a reason, so make sure it isn't just that the grade is good but that the child deserved that good grade (a matter of preparation, time, and hard work).  Hands-on stuff is important.  Make sure they know that engineering school isn't necessarily fun, is a ton of hard work, and probably does not resemble working as an engineer.  It is something hard that one has to get through in order eventually to do the work for which one is suited.  It is ok not to enjoy it.  There isn't usually much room for liberal arts classes in engineering school, so it is important to do them before you get there.  This actually means right now for you.  This is probably your window to do things like history.  When your child is older, he may be so focused on tech stuff that he turns into teflon where things like history, foreign languages, and literature are concerned.  Or he may not. : )  You never know.  But just in case...  Going through Draw Squad or something similar is a good idea.  Most engineers I've met can draw at last a little.  Sometimes that just means that they are willing to attempt a drawing rather than declaring that they can't draw.  It is a very useful skill and Draw Squad, despite the annoying rarara, teaches what engineers need to know - how to draw something out of one's head.  Again, it might be easier to get cooperation in this now or in a few years than later, in high school.  You probably have already discovered that it pays to learn how to visualize something and drive at the same time lol.  There was always a question at the end of the long description of something making it so I couldn't just pretend to understand. There are so many cool engineering projects, like robotics competitions, ham radio licenses, science fairs, and rocketry.  : )  And if his father can mentor him, you are all set!  Have fun!

 

Nan

[hepatica]

 

I think the kind of "passive" you describe seems more normal and typical to me than the extremely driven and ambitious kids... those are the rare ones.

 

 

This idea has really been bothering me, and I can't seem to pinpoint why. Perhaps because I don't think it really captures the uniqueness of kids who are not really focused on the traditional, but very limited, spectrum of skills that are emphasized in academic work. If you love "schoolwork" then the path is pretty clear and unambiguous (maybe this is what you were trying to say in your next paragraph) - take the challenging classes, aim for the highly competitive schools, make great grades, get great test scores etc... It doesn't take much introspection or creativity or ingenuity to figure out what to do next. The path is laid out and the rules are clear, and society loves a good student, and you will get all sorts of kudos for succeeding in that arena that we (society) have decided is important and worthy and indicative of talent and intelligence. 

 

But, whether students who are academically ambitious and driven are "rare," seems to depend a lot on the environment. I live in an area where it is expected that virtually all students will go to college, and most are full on in the rat race to get into a competitive school. Everyone's kid is "gifted," they all take the advanced classes, pile on the APs, prep like mad for the SAT. It is expected that kids will strive for this level of academic success. So, in this setting, having a kid who can look at college with a different eye, who can say, "hey, this is not my cup of tea," who can see all sorts of alternative ways to learn about the things she is interested in, who is more interested in living a life true to herself than in collecting the status and prestige of an Ivy or Poison Ivy degree, who is willing to buck the system and not conform to the expectation of exceptionalism that pervades the culture, that, at least when I look around me, seems pretty rare.

 

Also, there are lots of kids whose abilities are hard to categorize on a common bell curve. Kids with very high IQs, but with low processing speed are not going to have the same sort of success in school that kids whose abilities are grouped more consistently. Yet, these kids are often fabulously creative thinkers and problem solvers. They are also "rare." So, I guess I am thinking that the terminology "late to launch" betters captures the square peg in a round whole predicament that so many of these kids face - much more so than the idea of the "rare" academic superstar vs the rest of the "typically or normally" developing masses. 

 

Or maybe I am just sick of being surrounded by the driven, ambitious crowd and don't find them all that interesting or compelling any more. I guess should move to one of those places in the middle of the country where people tell me they don't even know which schools are in the Ivy League. Just rambling here....

[lllll]

..

[Arcadia]

This idea has really been bothering me, and I can't seem to pinpoint why. Perhaps because I don't think it really captures the uniqueness of kids who are not really focused on the traditional, but very limited, spectrum of skills that are emphasized in academic work.

...

But, whether students who are academically ambitious and driven are "rare," seems to depend a lot on the environment.

...

Or maybe I am just sick of being surrounded by the driven, ambitious crowd and don't find them all that interesting or compelling any more. I guess should move to one of those places in the middle of the country where people tell me they don't even know which schools are in the Ivy League. Just rambling here....

 

I didn't think Regentrude's remarks was restricted to the academic domain only.  I do think extremely driven and ambitious kids who are intrinsically motivated are outliers.

 

Kids who are extrinsically motivated academically in academic powerhouse areas or kids who are extrinsically sports driven by their parents are probably common, and whether the kids like the path that is "planned" for them is another thing altogether. 

 

I don't think you need to move to the middle of the country though, moving from an academic driven city to a more relaxed city might be good enough. Commute distance to my kids activities is a big reason we haven't move. I think most of my neighbors don't know which schools are in the Ivy League without searching the internet :lol: They are more familiar with Stanford, UCB and UCLA, the first two being commute distance away.

[Arcadia]

Oh, we pegged him for an engineer from a very young age.  He and my DH build and DH is all about explaining that nonsense to him!  Two peas in a pod, they are

 

My older who said he wanted to be an astronaut, have engineering/scientist tendencies. However after we started house hunting a few years ago, he decided he wanted to design houses and drew floor plans while at the showroom offices. He wants to buy land and build his own home next time.  We outsource Art for both kids since I flop Art throughout school but aced CAD in university.

[Reefgazer]

Good advice and lots to chew on.  Thanks!

Well, having had two like this, I can't tell you it is easy, but with clear cut interests like that, it is fairly straight forward.  All my most recent posts and a good bit of my old posts (especially the panicky ones about keeping up with him lol) will be at least sort of applicable. : )  My top piece of advice for anyone with a child who might be headed for engineering school is to keep in mind that from pre-algebra up, their public school competition is spending half to three quarters of an hour (if not longer) watching the teacher solve problems and then is going home to do about an hour of problems on their own.  If your child is blasting through their math program at the rate of half an hour a day, you probably need to add significantly more problems (unless they are brilliant).  And if they are getting them all, then you need to add harder problems.  There should be at least some problems that stump them.  They won't learn proper problemsolving skills if there aren't.  A few more pieces of advice...  Engineering schools rely heavily on calculus and physics grades when they decide who they are going to admit.  Make sure those grades are good.  They rely on them for a reason, so make sure it isn't just that the grade is good but that the child deserved that good grade (a matter of preparation, time, and hard work).  Hands-on stuff is important.  Make sure they know that engineering school isn't necessarily fun, is a ton of hard work, and probably does not resemble working as an engineer.  It is something hard that one has to get through in order eventually to do the work for which one is suited.  It is ok not to enjoy it.  There isn't usually much room for liberal arts classes in engineering school, so it is important to do them before you get there.  This actually means right now for you.  This is probably your window to do things like history.  When your child is older, he may be so focused on tech stuff that he turns into teflon where things like history, foreign languages, and literature are concerned.  Or he may not. : )  You never know.  But just in case...  Going through Draw Squad or something similar is a good idea.  Most engineers I've met can draw at last a little.  Sometimes that just means that they are willing to attempt a drawing rather than declaring that they can't draw.  It is a very useful skill and Draw Squad, despite the annoying rarara, teaches what engineers need to know - how to draw something out of one's head.  Again, it might be easier to get cooperation in this now or in a few years than later, in high school.  You probably have already discovered that it pays to learn how to visualize something and drive at the same time lol.  There was always a question at the end of the long description of something making it so I couldn't just pretend to understand. There are so many cool engineering projects, like robotics competitions, ham radio licenses, science fairs, and rocketry.  : )  And if his father can mentor him, you are all set!  Have fun!

 

Nan

 

[Reefgazer]

It's funny to watch kids "build their niche".  DS and I go on walks early in the morning and he talks a blue streak about all sorts of plans for military planes and helicopters that he plans to invent and sell to the military.  Then he'll come home and build the contraption he talked to me about with his Legos.  He puts such minutiae and detail into those contraptions!  I sometimes feel I have a little Ralph Kramden what with all DS's schemes and plans and big ideas.  Some of his ideas have sounded pretty complicated, LOL!  I remember a few times mentioning some idea that DS had to my DH (who is retired military) and him replying that "Yes, the Navy has something similar in development right now", or "Yes, that would definitely fill a need".  Most of the time, I'm not sure what the heck DS is talking about, so I palm him off on DH, who speaks his language.

My older who said he wanted to be an astronaut, have engineering/scientist tendencies. However after we started house hunting a few years ago, he decided he wanted to design houses and drew floor plans while at the showroom offices. He wants to buy land and build his own home next time.  We outsource Art for both kids since I flop Art throughout school but aced CAD in university.

 

[Arcadia]

  DS and I go on walks early in the morning and he talks a blue streak about all sorts of plans for military planes and helicopters that he plans to invent and sell to the military.  Then he'll come home and build the contraption he talked to me about with his Legos.  He puts such minutiae and detail into those contraptions!  I sometimes feel I have a little Ralph Kramden what with all DS's schemes and plans and big ideas.  Some of his ideas have sounded pretty complicated,

 

Defense aeronautical engineer could be a possible career choice. One of my nephew is an air force engineer dealing with mainly fighter planes and sometimes helicopters. Hubby was a defense engineer (ballistics).  One of my cousins love building metal models of fighter jets (F4, F16, F18).   Ask him to sketch his designs and keep his sketchbooks, they might come in useful during a scholarship interview. Maybe your husband can teach him metalwork so that he can make metal models of his creations.

 

Also he might want to get a helicopter license (maybe before his drivers license). SIL is in the army and flies military helicopter when needed. Gives an extra perspective to the design process.  You might want to let him build a wind tunnel too. NASA has instructions for homemade wind tunnel.

 

My younger is suppose to do an individual project on something related to atmosphere for his outside science class. He said he is going to do something about planes and breaking the sound barrier :rolleyes:

 

sorry OP for the derail.