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Rambling thoughts...

 

DS is a ninth grader.  He wants to be a theoretical physicist or an astrophysicist.

 

He is almost done with AoPS Calculus and plans to take the AP Calc BC test in May.  He is also auditing a Linear Algebra class at University of Pennsylvania.  My friend's father is a professor there and, starting next year, ds will be allowed to be enrolled in a class or two.  Not sure how, but friend's father will "make it work".  

 

DS will also take AP Human Geography and both AP Physics C tests in May.

 

This is a kid who cannot stop learning.  He is extremely mature and is regularly mistaken for an older teenager.

 

In my mind, I knew I would have to ask myself the question.  Do we graduate him early?

 

Yesterday, he approached me and said that he doesn't think he can wait four years for college (which I guess he doesn't have to, if he is taking classes at Penn).  I told him that he can look at that extra year (in high school) as a gift to explore whatever he wants, especially with the freedom and opportunities he has been given.  He was very receptive to that idea.

 

I need to make sure that I understand the pros and cons of each path.  And I need to make sure that we are giving him the best preparation for whichever path we ultimately choose.

 

Should I plan his courses for the next two years, assuming that he may graduate a year early?  

 

Aaaah!  Thoughts?  

 

 

 

ETA:  extra year in high school.  

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In most cases, I don't think there's any advantage to early graduation (my kids are young, but I started college at 15 so I'm not speaking totally out of turn). However, if he's coming against the point where he should really be getting college credit for the work he's doing, it seems reasonable to consider it. Doing DE for two years sounds perfect, and if he could live at home while doing his upper-division, he should be fine. I also think differently about a boy starting college at 16 than a girl, not at all because of ability or maturity but because of other students. It seems like older girls are less likely to be ''interested'' in younger boys than the other way around.

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Yesterday, he approached me and said that he doesn't think he can wait four years for college (which I guess he doesn't have to, if he is taking classes at Penn).  I told him that he can look at that extra year as a gift to explore whatever he wants, especially with the freedom and opportunities he has been given.  He was very receptive to that idea.

 

 

 

I'm not sure whether you meant with the above that the "extra year" was assuming he graduated early or that he stayed in high school? I can tell you that each of my kids reached a point at which it was clear that what we were doing wasn't working. It was time for them to move up and move on. My daughter faced a more challenging situation, because she was too young to have a lot of choices. My son was already dual enrolled at the community college when he decided he was ready for more. It seems to me that if your son sought you out and told you outright that he feels like he can't wait four years, then you may be reaching that point, too.

 

My daughter went to a residential early entrance college program when she was 12. She graduated with her B.A. at 16. She was very ambivalent about the experience for a couple of years, and she still occasionally feels wistful about the college experience(s) she didn't have because she was so young. In particular, she struggled with the fact that, had she waited a few years, she likely could have attended a more selective, prestigious college with better resources for her area of study. However, she's now 20 and working in her field and very happy with her life. Every now and then, it occurs to her that her age peers still have a year or two to go before graduating from college, while she's already out in the world having a life, and it blows her mind. She also met several young women in school who are genuine peers and with whom she expects to remain friends for the rest of her life. So, on balance, I think early college has turned out to be a positive for her.

 

My son is 16 and midway through his freshman year in college. He is indisputably thrilled with his decision to graduate early. He loves his school, his friends on campus and (most of) his classes. He is excited about the fact that going to college early will give him two years of "head start" on his career. He's a performing arts/musical theatre major with a focus on dance, and he's very aware that dancers, especially, have a limited number of years to perform. In his case, because he was academically and socially ready to move on, it simply made sense to give him that extra time.

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I'd tell him that it is a possibility and configure his studies so that is possible.  But for my kid that is like that, I also told them that they aren't under pressure if that goal becomes unreasonable or there are other reasons to wait. 

 

A friend of mine was planning early graduation when her daughter had almost a year of medical issues.  So they went light that year and then had her graduate on time after all.  Another friend planned to graduate hers early, but the stress of that and some other family issues just became too much.  Her son decided to step back and have a lighter senior year with some project-based learning before college while he regrouped.  And that worked too.

 

But if yours completes the credits, has a goal, and is mature, I say to graduate them then. I had a student at the community college who always wanted to be a veterinarian like her mom and started dual enrollment at 15.  She graduated from high school and community college on the same day with straight A's and is in vet school now.  Why not?

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Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Jenny, I think you are right.  The tide is turning.  And I think what we do next will happen naturally.  I will plan according to his interests and passions and we'll take it from there.

 

If he continues for three more years, I am concerned about him having too many credits to be a freshman at the colleges he'd likely pursue.  I guess he can just audit the Penn classes.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

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One of my children was a 15 year old college freshman so I obviously believe that early college is a viable option. But I would make it the last option, after everything else had been exhausted. If your son has an opportunity to continue dual enrollment classes -at his level - than I would pursue that as far as I could. You keep more doors open that way. As long as he has not graduated high school his dual enrollment college credits will not affect his status as an incoming freshman when he matriculates. If your son is looking to attend a highly selective school (and finances allow), or to be a contender for high merit scholarships, then he would probably be better served to stay in high school as long as possible to build his resume. Not that those options wouldn't be possible for him at a younger age, just that they will be more of a challenge. Extracurriculars, leadership opportunities etc, take time.

 

With our son, we finally opted to graduate him because he had competed all of the undergraduate courses in his would-be major and needed access to graduate courses, which was easier as an undergraduate student than a dual enrollment student. He was also very mature and driven and had proven that he had the requisite skills (organization, time management, etc) to succeed in college.

 

Early graduation/college is not for eveyone, actually probably very few. But for some it is a very viable and positive choice.

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Lisa, I would keep his options open at present. See how the U Penn auditing situation works out first. What an incredible opportunity! I wouldn't be surprised if more doors open as a result of his performance in that class.

 

Generally, having lots of dual enrollment credits won't prevent him from starting over as a freshman in university, as long as you haven't graduated him beforehand.

 

If he's amenable to staying in high school and using his extra time to explore interests AND he has local opportunities to dig deeper, so much the better.

 

Now is a good time to explore colleges and finances, too, and to investigate scholarship opportunities.

 

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Rambling thoughts...

 

DS is a ninth grader.  He wants to be a theoretical physicist or an astrophysicist.

 

He is almost done with AoPS Calculus and plans to take the AP Calc BC test in May.  He is also auditing a Linear Algebra class at University of Pennsylvania.  My friend's father is a professor there and, starting next year, ds will be allowed to be enrolled in a class or two.  Not sure how, but friend's father will "make it work".  

 

DS will also take AP Human Geography and both AP Physics C tests in May.

 

This is a kid who cannot stop learning.  He is extremely mature and is regularly mistaken for an older teenager.

 

In my mind, I knew I would have to ask myself the question.  Do we graduate him early?

 

Yesterday, he approached me and said that he doesn't think he can wait four years for college (which I guess he doesn't have to, if he is taking classes at Penn).  I told him that he can look at that extra year (in high school) as a gift to explore whatever he wants, especially with the freedom and opportunities he has been given.  He was very receptive to that idea.

 

I need to make sure that I understand the pros and cons of each path.  And I need to make sure that we are giving him the best preparation for whichever path we ultimately choose.

 

Should I plan his courses for the next two years, assuming that he may graduate a year early?  

 

Aaaah!  Thoughts?  

 

 

 

ETA:  extra year in high school.  

 

If he earns the number credits normally required for graduation, then of course he should be graduated, regardless of his maturity. That he is graduated doesn't mean he has to leave home or anything, but if he does the work, he should reap the rewards.

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I had that option and my mom convinced me to stay for senior year hoopla. I had my acceptance in hand to Bard before she even knew I was considering it. In retrospect, I would have been better off going. I hated the small town we'd moved to and had nothing but trouble with the school admin. my last year there. Obviously, you don' have admin. troubles as a homeschooler but that stifled feeling is just as significant. I think my approach would largely depend on how the child feels and whether he is mature enough to leave. Being cooped up or stilted is no way to live.

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I graduated at 16 from public high school and went off to college. Looking back, I am not sure I'd recommend it. It was hard in high school to not be able to get my drivers license when my classmates could, or to have to get my parents signature for stuff in college, or to be not legal to go to bars. It was almost a running joke that I was younger than my classmates and it weighed on me, feeding insecurity and self doubt about my ability to be a college student. I did fine, I was responsible, but I think I would have felt more confident if I were the same age as my classmates.

 

I turned down the option to skip my daughter a grade in public school and I have no regrets. In my opinion, it's better to be the most advanced in a grade than the youngest.

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We've been through this and have decided each time that concurrent enrollment (here and in our last state, dual enrollment refers to taking college classes on the high school campus...concurrent is at the college) is consistently the best of both worlds.

 

Pros:

-The student has more years to work, volunteer, explore their interests without worrying about bills and how to feed herself without prematurely clogging her arteries.

-The student learns study skills, how to find a mentor, how to for help, etc so by the time she moves out that learning curve has flattened.

-The student is more competitive for the best schools and scholarships.

-Child labor laws aren't in effect for the student who needs to find work on campus

-The student starts university with a lot of general Ed out of the way and doesn't have to sit in on large stadium style classes for freshman classes. This may free up time to double major or take extra electives or in the case they aren't transferable, at least the student will be able to take 300 level courses rather than100 level courses to fill in freshman requirements. They remain challenged at the appropriate level.

 

Cons:

They can get incredibly big for their britches at 17-18

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My DD graduated one year early. She took her first college class in 8th grade, after which we decided to call that year "9th" and high school, so she effectively skipped 8th grade. Keeping her home and giving her a challenging education until she was 17 was only possible because she took classes at the university.

Not graduating even earlier allowed her to build a strong transcript that got her admitted to a highly selective college.

 

A few things to consider:

In college admissions, there are no bonus points for being younger. They are not impressed if a student accomplishes things young, they compare this student to the regular age students - so the student has to stand out among the regular age cohort. If the student does so, graduating early is fine. In some cases, the extra year may help build a stronger application that makes the student stand out.

 

Another thing: if the student is graduated from high school, but does not yet start college (i.e. takes a gap year), he can not further his education by taking college classes after high school graduation - or he won't be considered a freshman for admission. So, keeping the student as a high school student may be beneficial because it allows him to take college courses without enrolling as a regular student.

 

ETA: If your student is aiming at a highly selective college, please know that many of them do not accept any outside credit. So any college course he would be taking during high school would be for his education only, but would not receive credit at the terminal school and thus not shorten his college time or lighten his class load. DD's university accepted none of her 30+ credits she earned at a four year public university while in high school. They did consider her physics courses for placement so she could place in the honors version of the freshmen intro sequence, but not skip any courses.

 

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Another thing: if the student is graduated from high school, but does not yet start college (i.e. takes a gap year), he can not further his education by taking college classes after high school graduation - or he won't be considered a freshman for admission. So, keeping the student as a high school student may be beneficial because it allows him to take college courses without enrolling as a regular student.

 

 

 

sorry, this is not for the OP but I'm just wondering if you have any idea how things work in Europe...about this...

 

We ran into a problem...The admissions requirements can change every year here and they only post them in January.  We had a great surprise when, for the school my dd is interested in, there was a requirement for those applying with foreign diplomas to have the diploma in hand, before you could even apply!! So she has to finish this May, graduating "early" but has the needed AP's (presuming she passes them :-)), get her AP grades, and then she can apply next January for the following year. This means that she has a year off and cannot do what you are suggesting, to stay in school and do college courses while in high school. To be an official university student, you have to have finished high school. 

 

The thing is that we have found some other schools which do not have the same requirement about the diploma being in hand. They are not in the field my dd wishes to pursue, but would give her knowledge in other fields....

 

So my question...do you know if this "not being considered a freshman" is a problem over here? Of course there are different schools so perhaps different requirements, but I'm just wondering if you have even seen it in Germany? She would study in Economics for a year, for example, then hopefully get into this other school and start over (since they don't have credits that transfer).

 

For a couple of weeks, we thought dd could do an internship...but after she went out and applied and got some negative responses, she lost hope and went back to the idea of studying...

 

Any ideas? (we have thought about her doing au pair work, but I don't think she wants to do that for a whole year as she has lots of European experience already...)

 

Thanks!

Joan

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sorry, this is not for the OP but I'm just wondering if you have any idea how things work in Europe...about this...

 

We ran into a problem...The admissions requirements can change every year here and they only post them in January.  We had a great surprise when, for the school my dd is interested in, there was a requirement for those applying with foreign diplomas to have the diploma in hand, before you could even apply!! So she has to finish this May, graduating "early" but has the needed AP's (presuming she passes them :-)), get her AP grades, and then she can apply next January for the following year. This means that she has a year off and cannot do what you are suggesting, to stay in school and do college courses while in high school. To be an official university student, you have to have finished high school. 

So my question...do you know if this "not being considered a freshman" is a problem over here? Of course there are different schools so perhaps different requirements, but I'm just wondering if you have even seen it in Germany?

 

Sorry, I do not know. Obviously, the financial angle of eligibility for freshman scholarships is not an issue since college is free in Germany, so that can't play a role.  And since application is not competetive (except for few subjects), students can finish their high school in July and sign up for the fall semester.

I know  that it is possible under certain circumstances to take classes at the university as a high school student.

 

Not sure whether any of this helps.

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The noncompetitive situation sounds similar to the situation here for people who have taken the Swiss exams/have the Swiss diploma/maturite which I guess is the Abitur in Germany, except the part about high school students taking courses is different... A common question on the apps is whether the student is matriculated in any other 'Haute Ecole" and it seemed like I heard something about failing in one school meant you couldn't get in to another...We'll have to research...Glad to hear your daughter is doing well...

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I can't imagine that a 9th grader finishing calculus needs 3 more years of high school. A student that advanced is likely to pursue graduate courses as well, and starting college earlier can help him be completely finished with school at a reasonable age. I am pretty sure my college roommate was about 28 before she finished school and began working in her chosen field. I skipped my senior year of high school, and it was definitely the right decision for me. 

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My youngest dd also finished calc BC in 9th grade.  This year (11th) she is taking the highest math and science courses our CC offers.  There is no four-year college with advanced math and science less than an hour away.  (There is a small LAC in our town, but we looked into it when oldest ds was in the same situation and they didn't offer any math beyond differential equations, which he had at the CC).

 

We decided that it is better for our kids to stay at home and experience four years of high school, even if that meant their course choices were limited for their senior year. The extra time in high school has allowed them to do some amazing things. Youngest dd was able to do an amazing computer science project that she has already presented at a professional engineering conference (and she got an award for best student paper and all of the other students were grad students!)  She'll enter this project in the science fair and hopefully qualify for ISEF.

 

She was 1st in the state and 6th in the country last year at National History Day.

 

She will be an intern at an NIH lab this summer and half time next year.

 

She plays on a homeschool basketball team and is getting pretty darn good.

 

She has a great group of friends that she spends lots of time hanging out with.

 

I think she that she has a good balance of hard work and fun and that she has used these years well.  She is also going to be very well positioned to get into any college she chooses.

 

I'd encourage you not to make a decision now.  Keep your options open and start looking for cool things for him to do with the extra time if he decides not to graduate early.

 

 

 

 

 

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When my daughter was about to enter 9th grade, we bumped her up to 10th instead, and she graduated a year early.  We wouldn't have done it if she didn't really, really want it and if we didn't think she was really, really ready.  But, it worked out very well in her case.  She ended up moving to France (in a structured program) the year after she graduated, and immersed herself in the language (which she had studied in high school).  When she went to college the following year, she was able to pass out of all of the French level courses and get a full-ride scholarship for a year abroad in Senegal during her sophomore year, which was the highlight of her college days.  In her case, graduating from high school a year early set her on a path that was far more interesting and productive than dragging through one more year of high school just because.

 

Anyway, that was our experience.  :)

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I began college classes over the summer when I was 14. I was offered full entrance at. 16. I turned it down due to how very much I wanted to be "normal." Now, I see this as ridiculous, but as a younger teen the only thing that I could seem to feel was how grossly out of place I was. Didn't fit at home with friends; didn't fit at school.

 

This has been the largest consideration with my extremely extroverted son. He so desperately wants a peer group and a "college experience" that I think speeding up might greatly kill the joy of college (which by 18 is not only about learning academics).

 

The other major decision point on our end is if Ds knows what field he wants with a level of drive that is obvious. In that instance he has talked of dual entry early, just going to state university, and pounding out credits. He could have his BA by 18 and enter the field. Other than the jump on an occupation, we have not seen any benefit to early graduation. He can just take college classes in high school.

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A few things to consider:

In college admissions, there are no bonus points for being younger. They are not impressed if a student accomplishes things young, they compare this student to the regular age students - so the student has to stand out among the regular age cohort. If the student does so, graduating early is fine. In some cases, the extra year may help build a stronger application that makes the student stand out.

 

 

This was key for us too.  The university that accepted Calvin (when he was seventeen) explicitly states that it gives no extra credit for taking subjects early.  This means that a 15yo has to get the same marks as an 18yo for them to be considered favourably for entrance.  

 

If waiting means better grades (and you can manage it in a way that means that the child is not too oppressed by the situation) then it might mean getting into the 'right' level of university.

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My youngest dd also finished calc BC in 9th grade.  This year (11th) she is taking the highest math and science courses our CC offers.  There is no four-year college with advanced math and science less than an hour away.  (There is a small LAC in our town, but we looked into it when oldest ds was in the same situation and they didn't offer any math beyond differential equations, which he had at the CC).

 

We decided that it is better for our kids to stay at home and experience four years of high school, even if that meant their course choices were limited for their senior year. The extra time in high school has allowed them to do some amazing things. Youngest dd was able to do an amazing computer science project that she has already presented at a professional engineering conference (and she got an award for best student paper and all of the other students were grad students!)  She'll enter this project in the science fair and hopefully qualify for ISEF.

 

She was 1st in the state and 6th in the country last year at National History Day.

 

She will be an intern at an NIH lab this summer and half time next year.

 

She plays on a homeschool basketball team and is getting pretty darn good.

 

She has a great group of friends that she spends lots of time hanging out with.

 

I think she that she has a good balance of hard work and fun and that she has used these years well.  She is also going to be very well positioned to get into any college she chooses.

 

I'd encourage you not to make a decision now.  Keep your options open and start looking for cool things for him to do with the extra time if he decides not to graduate early.

 

I'm always impressed by everything you do with yours!!

 

I am curious how do you deal with this on the transcript, or maybe it's just that in the US unusual high school transcripts are more accepted or it's the level reached and not the number of years of English, etc (wait, I though US diplomas did have to show eg four years of English, four of math, 3-4 of science, etc)? 

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I'm always impressed by everything you do with yours!!

 

I am curious how do you deal with this on the transcript, or maybe it's just that in the US unusual high school transcripts are more accepted or it's the level reached and not the number of years of English, etc (wait, I though US diplomas did have to show eg four years of English, four of math, 3-4 of science, etc)? 

 

We count semester classes at the CC as a full credit.  That's pretty standard, I think.  We explain our system on the transcript.  So even though she won't have a math course in her senior year, she will have 5 credits of math (1 for Calc BC, 1 for Stats, 1 for Linear Algebra, 1 for Calc 3, and 1 for Differential Equations).

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He is almost done with AoPS Calculus and plans to take the AP Calc BC test in May.  He is also auditing a Linear Algebra class at University of Pennsylvania.  My friend's father is a professor there and, starting next year, ds will be allowed to be enrolled in a class or two.  Not sure how, but friend's father will "make it work".  

 

Is there any way your son could do some sort of research at Penn?

 

A friend of my son's sounds a lot like your son and wants to eventually get his PhD in astrophysics. He'll be a freshman next year at U Chicago. I'm pretty sure he took MV Calc/Linear Algebra his sophomore year in high school and thereafter math classes at a local university. He also did some research and participated in the Summer Science Program in California. There's also a summer program that Baylor offers called Casper but I don't know much about it.

 

http://www.summerscience.org/home/index.php

http://www.baylor.edu/casper/index.php?id=83941

 

U Chicago also offers summer classes which might have something your son would like. They're kind of pricey but they might have aid. Penn offers something similar and according to the website, it's tuition free for public schoolers and charter schoolers, but maybe a homeschooler would be considered a charter? I'll link what I've found:

 

http://summer.uchicago.edu/high-school/insight

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/summer/programs/highschool/summerscholars

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/summer/courses/precollege

 

You might already know about these opportunities. I'm just throwing them out there in case they might be helpful.

 

 

 

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Thank you so much for sharing all of your experiences.

 

MBM, thank you for the links.  I am aware of those science programs, but ds needs to be a rising junior or senior to apply.  I will look into the Penn Summer opportunities, so thank you.  He has plans to go to Japan for 6 weeks this summer.  I am not sure what else he can fit in!

 

Regentrude and Laura - thank you for the reminder that a 15 year old is expected to have the same grades/scores as an 18 year old.  I know that fact is not to be taken lightly.

 

Many of you have mentioned Dual Enrollment.  Is that something a school like Penn offers?  I can't find anything on the site that mentions it. I can't just call it DE on the transcript, right?

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Many of you have mentioned Dual Enrollment.  Is that something a school like Penn offers?  I can't find anything on the site that mentions it. I can't just call it DE on the transcript, right?

 

DE simply means the student is taking courses for credit at a college while still in high school.

Different colleges handle that differently; you should ask admissions what is required to apply as a dually enrolled student. ETA: It is possible that a highly selective institution does not permit DE at all. You need to ask your friend's father how exactly he will "make it happen".

 

You would indicate on the transcript that that course was taken at whatever college. The student would have to request the college's official transcript for applications later.

 

If your student is just sitting in by instructor permission but not actually enrolled, that's iffy - because the instructor is most likely not allowed to have a non enrolled student attend class, for liability reasons. I would not mention this on the transcript and describe such a  course as a home taught course following a college class' syllabus.

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Many of you have mentioned Dual Enrollment.  Is that something a school like Penn offers?  I can't find anything on the site that mentions it. I can't just call it DE on the transcript, right?

 

Penn has a Young Scholars Program (YSP) that offers some classes to high school students but it looks like it's only available to juniors and seniors. If you see something your son might like, ask if he could take classes through them anyway, even if he's a bit young. You never know. They might make an exception or be able to suggest something.

 

Your friend's father who is a prof sounds like a good bet.

 

 

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Many of you have mentioned Dual Enrollment.  Is that something a school like Penn offers?  I can't find anything on the site that mentions it. I can't just call it DE on the transcript, right?

 

When most of us talk about dual enrollment, we mean classes at a community college. On a high school transcript, we list the course and its grade, with some kind of notation that it was a college-level class.

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I graduated at 16 from public high school and went off to college. Looking back, I am not sure I'd recommend it. It was hard in high school to not be able to get my drivers license when my classmates could, or to have to get my parents signature for stuff in college, or to be not legal to go to bars. It was almost a running joke that I was younger than my classmates and it weighed on me, feeding insecurity and self doubt about my ability to be a college student. I did fine, I was responsible, but I think I would have felt more confident if I were the same age as my classmates.

 

I turned down the option to skip my daughter a grade in public school and I have no regrets. In my opinion, it's better to be the most advanced in a grade than the youngest.

 

My husband started college WAY early too (the year he should have gone to 8th grade) and does -not- think it was a positive experience. He was really isolated and had a hard time finding friends. And ended up making some really bad decisions..  I'm not sure it would have been better for him in a public high school either given that he was academically capable of college level work.  But I know he's really against our kids doing the same thing.  Me? I never got a chance to accelerate like that due to finances and languished in school and would love to give my kids more opportunities if they end up bright and ready for them.  They are still young though and we're letting time work for now.

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I think it is important to look very closely at the individual child and the situation.  Attending college/university, especially if you are living away from home, is a very difficult situation for most kids at first.  Younger students who are ready for the academic work aren't always ready for the social side (ie dorm life, study groups, clubs, dating, roommates, etc.).  The level of personal interaction with people who might become very conscious of the age difference can be difficult. 

 

For some kids this isn't a problem and they can work and live very successfully at university.  For others this can be a huge source of added stress.  I've known folks at both ends of the spectrum.

 

I'm not saying there is one right answer, the answer is as unique as every kid.  I guess I'm saying take time to look at and weigh all the factors involved-not just classroom work.

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