Learning to read but won't look at the page?!

[horsellian]

When you learn to read doesn't really matter...

 

Agreed - I didn't say I thought it made sense for everyone to be taught to read at 4 (and I don't think all children are ready, although many are ready then or earlier), but the statement that globally no country teaches 4-year olds to read is wrong.

[Tsuga]

Just as a point of information, that's not true.  In England (and I think Wales) 4-year-olds are routinely taught to read, as the first year of school is 4-5 year olds. (The youngest children in the class turn 4 on 31 August, with a school year that starts 1 September or a few days later, so most children are 4 for a good part or all of the school year).

 

Except England and the US have some of the lowest reading scores in the Western world so... they are trying to teach them, but not really succeeding.

[SamanthaCarter]

There's something about one's first child where it is really difficult to see how young they really are. And then you realize once your second comes along and reaches the same age that you were asking your older one to do certain things - your expectations were just too high. 

 

I think a lot of moms here are seeing you struggle with this.

 

Based on your siggy, your 4 year old is doing at least twice the work that my almost 6 year old is doing. I think the advice to back off is good. 

 

<hug>

[EmilyGF]

There's something about one's first child where it is really difficult to see how young they really are. And then you realize once your second comes along and reaches the same age that you were asking your older one to do certain things - your expectations were just too high. 

 

I think a lot of moms here are seeing you struggle with this.

 

Based on your siggy, your 4 year old is doing at least twice the work that my almost 6 year old is doing. I think the advice to back off is good. 

 

<hug>

I resemble that.

 

This was totally me! My 6 year old does so much less than my oldest did at that age, and yet I am completely confident that by the time she is almost 10, she will be where he is now at almost 10. :-) 

 

Emily

[lovinmyboys]

My current 4yr old is my 3rd child and it is really true that I realize much more just how much of a baby he still is (although he does lots of big boy things).

 

Here is a story that really made me realize just how young he still is. He is at least as bright at as an average 4yr old. He was asking about his birthday a few months ago and I explained that it was fall, then it would be winter and christmas, then his birthday, spring, then summer when we go swimming. He was AMAZED that "summer comes back." He kept saying that we had already had summer and you mean we get to do it again sometime. He has only lived through the change of each season 4 or 5 times. So, he could name the seasons and tell a little about each one, but he didn't even realize that they repeat. Maybe that was a parenting fail in my part, but I really think he just hasn't lived long enough to have experienced it. He is still very young. So is your daughter 😊

[Aiden]

There's something about one's first child where it is really difficult to see how young they really are. And then you realize once your second comes along and reaches the same age that you were asking your older one to do certain things - your expectations were just too high. 

 

I think a lot of moms here are seeing you struggle with this.

 

Based on your siggy, your 4 year old is doing at least twice the work that my almost 6 year old is doing. I think the advice to back off is good. 

 

<hug>

 

I just edited my siggy to reflect what we're actually doing--we dropped the written work in SL P4/5 halfway through, when it became too difficult; we've dropped almost all of SL LA K because I'm really not a fan and neither is she; we finished one critical thinking workbook and the next is too hard, so we're not starting it yet; and I'm almost ready to remove HWOT preK, not because it's too much but because she loves it, flew through it, and is almost done with the book, but we don't want to start the K level until next fall. Since she enjoys handwriting, I'll probably pick up some letter tracing workbooks that she can do when she wants, and I encourage her to write and draw as desired. We still do the ETC books, which she doesn't love but doesn't hate, and it's all review of stuff she already knows--I'm willing to drop it if she wants, but so far she tolerates it well enough. She loves math and begs to do it--I let her do as much as she wants each day, which could be anywhere from 2 to 10 pages. The Kumon books have been things like cutting and pasting, and she's getting a maze one as a stocking stuffer since she enjoys mazes, but they're only done when she asks, which could be every day for a week and then not at all for two weeks.

 

So, yeah, the old siggie looked like a lot, but what we're really doing is read alouds, math, handwriting, OPGTR, ETC, and some motor skill books when she wants to. The only thing she really resists is OPGTR. Sometimes I also realize that a read aloud is too advanced, so we skip it.

[Aiden]

My current 4yr old is my 3rd child and it is really true that I realize much more just how much of a baby he still is (although he does lots of big boy things).

 

Here is a story that really made me realize just how young he still is. He is at least as bright at as an average 4yr old. He was asking about his birthday a few months ago and I explained that it was fall, then it would be winter and christmas, then his birthday, spring, then summer when we go swimming. He was AMAZED that "summer comes back." He kept saying that we had already had summer and you mean we get to do it again sometime. He has only lived through the change of each season 4 or 5 times. So, he could name the seasons and tell a little about each one, but he didn't even realize that they repeat. Maybe that was a parenting fail in my part, but I really think he just hasn't lived long enough to have experienced it. He is still very young. So is your daughter 😊

 

I can relate to the season thing! We have spent most of our daughter's life living in climates that didn't have what most Americans recognize as seasons--it was a little hotter or a lot wetter during parts of the year, but the dramatic differences of spring/summer/fall/winter just didn't happen in either Egypt or Cambodia, where we lived until 18ish months ago. Last winter was my daughter's first real winter--her first experience of something that didn't feel like late spring/summer/early fall. Now at the beginning of another winter, she's  finally experiencing the full cycle. She keeps asking when summer is coming back. Until last year, she had no reason to believe it ever left, and now she's faced with the indignity of it leaving again!

[meggie]

There's something about one's first child where it is really difficult to see how young they really are. And then you realize once your second comes along and reaches the same age that you were asking your older one to do certain things - your expectations were just too high. 

 

I think a lot of moms here are seeing you struggle with this.

 

Based on your siggy, your 4 year old is doing at least twice the work that my almost 6 year old is doing. I think the advice to back off is good. 

 

<hug>

 

This! Exactly this! So many examples of this with me and my oldest. So many. And my intentions were good. I think this is what all the experienced moms are trying to help the OP see. They aren't doing it to be mean, they're doing it because they're trying to help her find what's developmentally appropriate.

 

I just edited my siggy to reflect what we're actually doing--we dropped the written work in SL P4/5 halfway through, when it became too difficult; we've dropped almost all of SL LA K because I'm really not a fan and neither is she; we finished one critical thinking workbook and the next is too hard, so we're not starting it yet; and I'm almost ready to remove HWOT preK, not because it's too much but because she loves it, flew through it, and is almost done with the book, but we don't want to start the K level until next fall. Since she enjoys handwriting, I'll probably pick up some letter tracing workbooks that she can do when she wants, and I encourage her to write and draw as desired. We still do the ETC books, which she doesn't love but doesn't hate, and it's all review of stuff she already knows--I'm willing to drop it if she wants, but so far she tolerates it well enough. She loves math and begs to do it--I let her do as much as she wants each day, which could be anywhere from 2 to 10 pages. The Kumon books have been things like cutting and pasting, and she's getting a maze one as a stocking stuffer since she enjoys mazes, but they're only done when she asks, which could be every day for a week and then not at all for two weeks.

 

So, yeah, the old siggie looked like a lot, but what we're really doing is read alouds, math, handwriting, OPGTR, ETC, and some motor skill books when she wants to. The only thing she really resists is OPGTR. Sometimes I also realize that a read aloud is too advanced, so we skip it.

 

Someone mentioned the crawling/walking baby as an analogy. I'd like to go back to that. If a baby is not yet ready to walk, there are still a lot of skills they need before they can walk. Pulling up on furniture and standing helps build those little leg muscles. Cruising along and holding onto furniture helps them coordinate their muscle movements.

 

So what I'm saying is that she's not ready for the actual act of reading yet. That's ok. She's four. So I highly recommend putting OPGTR away. Instead, focus on those skills that come before reading. When you say, "read aloud" are you talking about chapter books? Because I've never met a four year old who didn't want to read picture books. If you are talking about picture books and she doesn't like them, that would be my first goal: to get her to like picture books. Start with just looking at the pictures and explaining what is happening. Don't bother reading the words. Then have her try explaining what's happening.

 

Then play games with letters. Teach her a letter and see if she can find it on any signs or labels around the house or at the store. Make some letters out of play doh. Let her play with some in sand or shaving cream. I have an app for my tablet that teaches the letters. Oh Starfall! Let her play on Starfall.

 

My oldest was reading at three. He absorbed it so quickly and demanded more. My second son is five and a half and can *sometimes* sound out a couple of CVC words. Sometimes. That's ok. I can look back and see the milestones he's meeting and even though they aren't coming as fast as they did with my oldest, they are still coming and I still think it's miraculous watching a little child move along this path to reading.

 

So I suggest that instead of focusing on what she's not doing yet, you focus on looking for those milestones she's meeting, whatever they are and celebrating them. Seriously. Cheer and high five and hug and "WOOOOOOOHOOOO!!!!!!" She'll feel so proud of herself.

 

Also, maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but SWB's lecture on teaching elementary writing has a profound bit of advice. "If a child cries when you pull out a certain curriculum, put it away. That's their sign to you that they are frustrated, they just don't know how to articulate it yet." Listen to that and learn that sometimes to adults things seem like they only take one step, but in actuality, they require several and it's REALLY hard for little kids to learn all those steps. So if she's frustrated, take smaller baby steps.

 

So on a completely separate note, if you want to teach her how to articulate her frustration, I would go ahead and start that now. If she starts crying or being defiant by saying, "NO!" first, get her calm. Then ask her how she's feeling. Is she sad? Is she scared? Is it too hard? Teach her emotions so that she can start to learn how to recognize them. Once she can recognize them, she'll be able to articulate them. Realize this is a lifelong process and might take years before she can recognize that she's frustrated and goes immediately to words instead of tantrums or other "defiant" behavior.

 

Just some thoughts

[desertflower]

One thing you can try is something more visually appealing. Like progressive phonics. It's free online. Just try one story at a time and see how she responds. I don't know about the beginner's level, but at the intermediate levels it's generally about 3 sentences long. She reads the words in red and you read the rest.

 

Hth

[Aiden]

When you say, "read aloud" are you talking about chapter books? Because I've never met a four year old who didn't want to read picture books. If you are talking about picture books and she doesn't like them, that would be my first goal: to get her to like picture books. Start with just looking at the pictures and explaining what is happening. Don't bother reading the words. Then have her try explaining what's happening.

 

 

 

The read alouds are from Sonlight's P4/5 package--mostly "advanced" picture books and a few chapter books. The ones we've skipped have been chapter books, though she does enjoy The Milly-Molly-Mandy Storybook (while making it clear that she'd enjoy it more if it had more pictures). She loves some of the books, notably the Brer Rabbit stories and Stories from Around the World, I think is the title; others she likes some of the stories but not all of them (Lion Storyteller Bedtime Book comes to mind); and others she doesn't really like so much (nor do I; Stories from Africa is a prime example--it's too advanced for her, so I skipped most of those stories). So far we've skipped Uncle Wiggily, a chapter book, but I think she'll probably enjoy those stories this summer. There also is a lot of poetry included ... she thinks it's "silly," but most of it is supposed to be (Mother Goose).

 

We do read a lot of picture books as well, though she's made it clear she'd rather play. I don't push her to let me read to her when she'd rather play, as long as we read a little while each day, and she loves to be read to before nap and before bed, so we do read daily. Many of her shorter, favorite picture books, she prefers to "read" to us instead of letting us read them to her. She's very familiar with picture books and telling stories.

 

I did not teach her most of her letters or their sounds, either--I was going to, and I started using Heart of Dakota's Little Hands to Heaven when she was 3. I was surprised to find that she already knew almost all the letters and sounds--she'd picked them up from Leapfrog movies and "Curious George Learns the Alphabet" (she loves anything to do with that monkey and begged for that book, which I hate; that story is so long and contrived and obviously just for teaching the alphabet ... I'd much rather read any other Curious George story to her). Now she knows them all, though she still confuses lowercase b, d, p, and q sometimes, and I've noticed that she frequently mistakes lowercase "r" for "c" in the font used in OPGTR, but not in most other fonts. So when we do start OPGTR again, I'll write out the words for her on the white board rather than having her read from the book.

[Aiden]

One thing you can try is something more visually appealing. Like progressive phonics. It's free online. Just try one story at a time and see how she responds. I don't know about the beginner's level, but at the intermediate levels it's generally about 3 sentences long. She reads the words in red and you read the rest.

 

Hth

 

Thanks, I will check that out.

[stutterfish]

Just as a point of information, that's not true.  In England (and I think Wales) 4-year-olds are routinely taught to read, as the first year of school is 4-5 year olds. (The youngest children in the class turn 4 on 31 August, with a school year that starts 1 September or a few days later, so most children are 4 for a good part or all of the school year).

 

And that's why an increasing number of us in England are deciding not sending our children to school.

 

When our local preschool was told to put a 'writing table' in their setting and have writing sessions for the kids to copy words, I knew the madness had set in. These were 3 year olds! I'm not sure I can repeat what the preschool leader said in response, but that writing table soon disappeared under piles of LEGO and wooden bricks :)

 

One of mine didn't learn to read until she was 9 and I dread to think what 6 years of being a 'failure' would have done to her confidence had she gone through the school system.

[Rivka]

I'm a psychologist who specializes in working with homeschooling families on educational issues - learning disabilities, etc. I'm also a homeschooling mom to two advanced readers.

 

I did start my son (currently five years old) on reading lessons when he was four. We used Progressive Phonics. But I told him that schoolwork was optional until he started kindergarten. He had most of a year in which he could experiment with having lessons vs. not. Sometimes he enjoyed snuggling up with me on the couch and doing ten minutes of decoding work with lots of praise and silliness. Sometimes he just wanted to jump around. When kindergarten started, he'd had a whole year to get used to the idea that school is an enjoyable thing.

 

If reading lessons are stressful, I would ditch them. I would replace them with equally valuable - no, MORE valuable - pre-reading prep.

 

We would play the "Letter Searchers" game in stores, where the child scans magazine racks, packaging, etc. for a particular letter. This game has three levels: (1) "Okay, Letter Searchers! Can you find the letter M? ...Great searching, Letter Searchers!" (2) "Can you find the letter that makes the mmmm sound?" (3) "Can you find a letter that makes the same sound that starts the word 'Mommy'?"

 

I would read aloud from increasingly complex books filled with beautiful language. The more time you spend focusing on sentences like "Dan ran," the less appealing reading seems. I would build my child's vocabulary and her interest in reading by introducing fascinating stories with progressively longer and more complex sentences.

 

We would sing and read poetry, and work on building my child's appreciation of rhythm and rhyme. We would play silly games where I'd change an expected rhyme to a non-rhyming word, and my child had to correct me. ("Jack and Jill went up the steps...") I would help my child memorize little rhymes and poems.

 

The ability to read is a developmental process. There is nothing to be gained by forcing lessons that a child is not ready for, and there is everything to lose.

 

You say that you're going to watch for cues that your child is not developmentally ready to learn to read, but that at the same time you will not permit her to refuse. Refusing is a cue. It's the cue-iest cue imaginable. It doesn't matter that she "can" do it when threatened with punishment. She's not ready.

[Aiden]

I'm a psychologist who specializes in working with homeschooling families on educational issues - learning disabilities, etc. I'm also a homeschooling mom to two advanced readers.

 

I did start my son (currently five years old) on reading lessons when he was four. We used Progressive Phonics. But I told him that schoolwork was optional until he started kindergarten. He had most of a year in which he could experiment with having lessons vs. not. Sometimes he enjoyed snuggling up with me on the couch and doing ten minutes of decoding work with lots of praise and silliness. Sometimes he just wanted to jump around. When kindergarten started, he'd had a whole year to get used to the idea that school is an enjoyable thing.

 

If reading lessons are stressful, I would ditch them. I would replace them with equally valuable - no, MORE valuable - pre-reading prep.

 

We would play the "Letter Searchers" game in stores, where the child scans magazine racks, packaging, etc. for a particular letter. This game has three levels: (1) "Okay, Letter Searchers! Can you find the letter M? ...Great searching, Letter Searchers!" (2) "Can you find the letter that makes the mmmm sound?" (3) "Can you find a letter that makes the same sound that starts the word 'Mommy'?"

 

I would read aloud from increasingly complex books filled with beautiful language. The more time you spend focusing on sentences like "Dan ran," the less appealing reading seems. I would build my child's vocabulary and her interest in reading by introducing fascinating stories with progressively longer and more complex sentences.

 

We would sing and read poetry, and work on building my child's appreciation of rhythm and rhyme. We would play silly games where I'd change an expected rhyme to a non-rhyming word, and my child had to correct me. ("Jack and Jill went up the steps...") I would help my child memorize little rhymes and poems.

 

The ability to read is a developmental process. There is nothing to be gained by forcing lessons that a child is not ready for, and there is everything to lose.

 

You say that you're going to watch for cues that your child is not developmentally ready to learn to read, but that at the same time you will not permit her to refuse. Refusing is a cue. It's the cue-iest cue imaginable. It doesn't matter that she "can" do it when threatened with punishment. She's not ready.

 

I was all set to like your post--you really do have good points, and good advice, and most of your post is excellent--and then I got to the last paragraph. To accurately reflect my previous statements, that first sentence should have said: "You say that you're going to watch for cues that your child is not developmentally ready to learn to read, but that at the same time you have not permitted her in the past to refuse." I have not said that *in the future*, I will not permit her to refuse, which is what you implied. I have said that in the future, I will look for cues that I need to back off. I may not have explicitly said, but I certainly did mean to imply, that I will respect those cues in the future--which is the only place where I can change anything, since we've currently stopped doing phonics at all.

[Rivka]

I was all set to like your post--you really do have good points, and good advice, and most of your post is excellent--and then I got to the last paragraph. To accurately reflect my previous statements, that first sentence should have said: "You say that you're going to watch for cues that your child is not developmentally ready to learn to read, but that at the same time you have not permitted her in the past to refuse." I have not said that *in the future*, I will not permit her to refuse, which is what you implied. I have said that in the future, I will look for cues that I need to back off. I may not have explicitly said, but I certainly did mean to imply, that I will respect those cues in the future--which is the only place where I can change anything, since we've currently stopped doing phonics at all.

 

Sorry! I must have misinterpreted this: "When we start again, I will be on the lookout for and receptive to cues from her that we should put it aside again for a while, but if she becomes defiant, she will be disciplined for that defiance."

[Aiden]

Sorry! I must have misinterpreted this: "When we start again, I will be on the lookout for and receptive to cues from her that we should put it aside again for a while, but if she becomes defiant, she will be disciplined for that defiance."

 

I will be on the lookout for and receptive to cues that we should put it aside so that we can put it aside *before* she becomes defiant. Saying she doesn't want to do something or would rather do something else is not defiance, but is a cue that we should put it aside. Saying "No, I won't!" is defiance. If she leads with that, the defiant attitude will be punished (but we'll still put the phonics away), but if she leads with "I don't want to do that" or "I want to play instead," that is not defiance and will not be punished. The punishment always has been and will continue to be for the defiant "I don't have to do what you say" attitude, not for not wanting to do phonics, or even for not *wanting* to do what I say in general. Part of me being on the lookout for cues is that instead of telling her, "We're going to practice reading now," which could prompt a defiant response, I will say something along the lines of, "I'd like to practice reading now. Would you like to practice reading with me?" because the question allows her to say no without being defiant.

 

Hmm ... side benefit, if I've announced that I want to practice reading, and she doesn't want to join me, maybe that's my excuse for pulling out my own book to read for a few minutes ... that could be a very nice effect of this change.

[Pronghorn]

You might want to do some modelling of different ways to say no. Perhaps use dolls or stuffed animals and teach them how to decline work in a non-defiant way. Then your daughter can do a lot of her learning about defiance in a playful way that involves no actual punishments.

[Tsuga]

 

Saying "No, I won't!" is defiance.

 

I agree that there are better ways to express one's self.

 

I demand a lot of my kids in terms of behavior. I hate it when people excuse really crappy behavior and do nothing about it by saying, "It's developmentally normal." Yes, it's normal, but there should be learning going on.

 

But you have to give her alternatives.

 

Give her a script:

 

• "No thanks. I'd rather do something else."
• "I'm ready for a break. But don't worry mom, I can still get into a good college and make you proud!" (This was supposed to be funny... I have a dark sense of humor, sorry.)
• "Why don't we move on and get back to this later when I feel like it?"
• "Mom, can we just cuddle now? This isn't sinking in."
• "Can we wait until my eyes are more developed? This is a lot of focusing for me."

So, that takes care of discipline. Teach her how to refuse politely and demand that she do it. If she whines, ask her to say it again until she does it politely. (I'm the parent who sits there like an idiot, "What? Sorry, I didn't hear you. What were you asking? I didn't understand. Can you repeat?" until the kids say 'please'.)

 

But regarding reading--

 

Putting consonant and vowel sounds together =/= reading ready. There are many other physical and developmental milestones involved.

 

In this case, really, she's refusing to do something because she is not ready. The fact that you don't like the cue does not mean there is no cue. Discipline for rudeness, but in terms of cues, you have your cue. Misbehavior and refusing are your cue.

 

It's like you get a robo call from the bank saying that you're overdrawn. You hate robo calls (anyway I hate robo calls). But guess what--you're overdrawn. Demanding a certified letter is not going to change that. You can demand the certified letter but it would not be wise to wait to rectify your account until the letter is sent, would it?

 

My older daughter was able to put together three-sound-strings in three languages three years before she started to read.

[FO4UR]

Please listen to Rivka. She knows what she's talking about.

 

 

Just as a baby cries as a cue for food & comfort, so a 2-6yo child uses what you are calling defiance in order to communicate things that they cannot verbalize. 

 

 

We do not want to encourage defiant behavior, no. But punishing it will backfire big-time. You will either create a child who fears to ever have an independent thought or you will create a child who refuses to hear anyone else's independent thoughts.  In essence, you are creating a pecking order in your home.  Right now, you are bigger and smarter than your 4yo.  When she's 9-10-15-18, she will have learned how to either hide her true self from you or she will have learned how to out-power you.  Both things are very sad situations, and situations that are inhospitable to homeschooling and parent/child bonding.

 

 

When my children have acted out in defiance, my first reaction is to seek to understand what is going on.  (Sometimes there are MAJOR problems underlying that I would never see if I didn't really listen.)  2nd is to give them the words and the freedom to communicate their problems.  There was one time that one of my children refused to put shoes on to go to church....it turns out that there was a massive issue with one of the children's teachers.  Had I merely punished the defiant refusal to put on shoes, I would have subjected my child to a great deal of abuse...and endorsed it by my mandate to attend.  My oldest used to refuse foods, it turns out he has severe food allergies. He was quite old before he would verbalize, "This makes my throat itch."  His response was to freak out...as any adult would do if we were choking.

 

If she is punished, instead of heard, you are going to miss some major things.  This goes far beyond reading lessons. I encourage you to read a wide range of parenting philosophy.  Sally Clarkson has a good book on The Ministry of Motherhood if you are a Christian (She certainly is!).  Charlotte Mason's volumes 1 and 2 will be very helpful for both early education and parenting/habit training.

 

 

 

Yes, read your own books. She needs to see you enjoy reading.  She needs to hear you tell some fascinating things about your book.  She needs to sit next to you with her own books, even if she can't yet read.  She needs you to read to her what she picks off of the shelf.  If you ONLY do those things sans formal lessons, most 4yo's will begin asking what this word says, and where is the word "snow"...and "I found 'snowman'!!!"  etc... Lots of kids learn to read in this way.

 

 

[Farrar]

I think you're expecting your 4 yo to be way too savvy about expressing herself. To her, there's likely no difference between "I won't" and "I'd rather do something else." Has she ever even eloquently said anything along the lines of what you're looking for? Have you told her that's what she needs to say if it's too much? Have you spent a bunch of time explicitly, patiently working with her on self expression? Because that's the sort of thing most 4 yos need to be working on instead of reading.

[SeaConquest]

I will be on the lookout for and receptive to cues that we should put it aside so that we can put it aside *before* she becomes defiant. Saying she doesn't want to do something or would rather do something else is not defiance, but is a cue that we should put it aside. Saying "No, I won't!" is defiance. If she leads with that, the defiant attitude will be punished (but we'll still put the phonics away), but if she leads with "I don't want to do that" or "I want to play instead," that is not defiance and will not be punished. The punishment always has been and will continue to be for the defiant "I don't have to do what you say" attitude, not for not wanting to do phonics, or even for not *wanting* to do what I say in general. Part of me being on the lookout for cues is that instead of telling her, "We're going to practice reading now," which could prompt a defiant response, I will say something along the lines of, "I'd like to practice reading now. Would you like to practice reading with me?" because the question allows her to say no without being defiant.

 

 

Are you really expecting a 4 year old to parse through the semantics? I agree with Rivka, and with modeling a verbal script to follow, but I still wouldn't discipline her for an inability to follow the script.

[Mergath]

We do not want to encourage defiant behavior, no. But punishing it will backfire big-time. You will either create a child who fears to ever have an independent thought...

 

Unfortunately, that is the end goal in certain kinds of homeschooling families.  Which is why I have so little patience for the sort of person that would punish a pre-schooler for anything less than perfect, instant obedience. 

[FO4UR]

Unfortunately, that is the end goal in certain kinds of homeschooling families.  Which is why I have so little patience for the sort of person that would punish a pre-schooler for anything less than perfect, instant obedience. 

 

I have seen that too.

 

 

For the sake of the children whose parents stumble across this thread, I will do what I can to show a better way.  I understand that the dynamics of the family that lead to this sort of thinking is complex.  Often, the child is not the only victim of the punishments for anything less that perfect and instant obedience.  I understand that when I reply to a question on twtm, I'm not only answering the OP but the many people who read the thread later.

[Aiden]

I've already said that I'm not interested in discussing the disciplinary strategies my husband and I use with our daughter.

 

However, I will state that I am *already* teaching her ways to indicate that she does not wish to do something without being defiant, and for the most part, she is quite good at using those methods, though she's still learning.

 

I have said already that going forward, learning to read will be something that she will *not* be required to do if she expresses that she does not wish to do it.

 

I'm not sure how to make that any more clear.

 

Advice to back off has been heard and accepted. There is no need to beat a dead horse.

 

At this point, I have received the advice that I needed from this thread. Thank you to those of you who provided constructive and helpful feedback.

[Ellie]

I've already said that I'm not interested in discussing the disciplinary strategies my husband and I use with our daughter.

 

However, I will state that I am *already* teaching her ways to indicate that she does not wish to do something without being defiant, and for the most part, she is quite good at using those methods, though she's still learning.

 

I have said already that going forward, learning to read will be something that she will *not* be required to do if she expresses that she does not wish to do it.

 

I'm not sure how to make that any more clear.

 

Advice to back off has been heard and accepted. There is no need to beat a dead horse.

 

At this point, I have received the advice that I needed from this thread. Thank you to those of you who provided constructive and helpful feedback.

 

And at this point, it will probably be better for you just to skip this thread. People are going to continue replying as long as it is still here.

[wintermom]

nm

[MomatHWTK]

For the benefit of others than the OP, sometimes what appears to be strong willed or defiant is actually a neurological issue.  Learning disabilities, perception or communication difficulties, ADHD, ASD, etc. don't always announce themselves.  It is important (I can say in hindsight) to not assume you are dealing with an attitude issue when it is a real struggle on the part of a child.  You may end up programming pathways that you wish you hadn't. 

[FO4UR]

For the benefit of others than the OP, sometimes what appears to be strong willed or defiant is actually a neurological issue.  Learning disabilities, perception or communication difficulties, ADHD, ASD, etc. don't always announce themselves.  It is important (I can say in hindsight) to not assume you are dealing with an attitude issue when it is a real struggle on the part of a child.  You may end up programming pathways that you wish you hadn't. 

 

Yes!  This, and I've also seen a situation where dad set up unrealistic expectations for parenting and homeschooling (to be performed by the mother, of course) and when it didn't work out as planned mom was demonized as a Bad Mom and then dad swooped in to save the poor child from the mother's grip. Dad would also come and relieve the mother from the tension of parenting such a "defiant" child. The more the mother tried to please her dh, the larger the wedge between mother/child...the more she "needs" him to come and fix the problems...the larger the wedge...the larger the expectations....lather rinse repeat...until the whole family is well programmed to keep dad at the top of the triangle (triangulation!!!) lest another act of defiance ensues.  Mother cannot confront dad about any of this either, lest she model a pattern of "defiance."

"

 

If that is the case, you have the power (and responsibility) to step off of that merry-go-round and meet the needs (emotional and educational) of your child. 

[kiwik]

And that's why an increasing number of us in England are deciding not sending our children to school.

 

When our local preschool was told to put a 'writing table' in their setting and have writing sessions for the kids to copy words, I knew the madness had set in. These were 3 year olds! I'm not sure I can repeat what the preschool leader said in response, but that writing table soon disappeared under piles of LEGO and wooden bricks :)

 

One of mine didn't learn to read until she was 9 and I dread to think what 6 years of being a 'failure' would have done to her confidence had she gone through the school system.

Don't they call it the 'nappy curriculum'? In NZ kids start school and learning to read the day they turn 5 (or the next day) if school is in session. Until then though they generally aren't taught any formal academics although nearly 5 year olds are encouraged to write their name and counting songs and educational games are available at preschool. There are a number of kids in each class who would benefit from another 6 months though. Often the spend 6 months making little progress then catch up to pretty much where they should be.

[Susan in TN]

One thing you can try is something more visually appealing. Like progressive phonics. It's free online. Just try one story at a time and see how she responds. I don't know about the beginner's level, but at the intermediate levels it's generally about 3 sentences long. She reads the words in red and you read the rest.

 

Hth

My dd8 loves these. She is, I guess, rather behind in reading. I have used Phonics Pathways with all my kids, but dd8 was struggling in the middle. I put that away and we tried the Progressive Phonics books. Dd immediately loved them (The books we started with were super easy) and after a few weeks, I brought Phonics Pathways out again. She was so much more comfortable and Is on track to finish it within a month or so. We still do the Progressive books for fun and sometimes teases me by reading "my" part.

 

I don't know if it was the method or the change of pace, but it worked for us. In fact, she has been taking out the McGuffey readers for "fun" reading. :D

[OneStepAtATime]

To the OP, I am glad you feel you got something useful out of this thread and have already implemented some ideas that might help your situation.  Good luck and best wishes to you and your daughter.

 

For the benefit of others than the OP, sometimes what appears to be strong willed or defiant is actually a neurological issue.  Learning disabilities, perception or communication difficulties, ADHD, ASD, etc. don't always announce themselves.  It is important (I can say in hindsight) to not assume you are dealing with an attitude issue when it is a real struggle on the part of a child.  You may end up programming pathways that you wish you hadn't. 

 

And to this post for others reading this thread, I must say MomatHWTK has made a very valid point.  Yes.  Many, many times over, yes.  

 

My children are very bright, one borderline gifted, but I did not recognize the signs that they also had learning challenges for a very long time.  And that their defiance/disinterest/frustration/anger/insecurity was stemming from the fact that their intellectual ability outstripped much of their capability in other areas of specific input/output.  And they suffered way more than they should have.  I still cringe at how demoralized they became.

 

 If we had just pulled them from school, slowed everything down, and found a far more effective way to teach them much sooner, with love and patience and grace and the specialized instruction they needed, we would have saved a lot of tears and anger and insecurity.  And a heck of a lot of time would not have been lost trying to get them "where they are supposed to be".

 

Best wishes to all.