S/o: Family Research Council (FRC).

[ktgrok]

Completely inappropriate parallel, but you know that already.

 

You are comparing apples (inherent physical trait, not mutable) to oranges (the behavior someone engages in - not visible, quite mutable as we see in today's culture). 

 

So, to play it your way, and talk about "behavior", what about interracial couples? Marrying someone outside your race is a behavior, not a physical trait. Should it be legal to refuse to serve wedding cakes for interracial marriages? 

[Scarlett]

It was a statement about how the country would look if religious laws superseded civil ones and every person could pick and choose which laws to follow based on their religion. Combined with the (understandably) low threshold for creating a religion, what would stop people from creating their own religions based upon beliefs against particular laws? Nothing at all. (And that would be fine as long as they didn't act upon them.)

It baffles me that people would NOT put their religious beliefs above civil ones.

[Joker]

It baffles me that people would NOT put their religious beliefs above civil ones.

 

Can you imagine how that would play out? It absolutely terrifies me that it could be an option especially here in the US where every religion is supposed to be welcome.

[umsami]

How is the restaurant owner even going to know to what religion a customer adheres? 

 

Doesn't come up a whole lot in the "I'd like pasta carbonara and an iced tea" kind of discussions that typically take place there in the one hour someone spends in the restaurant. 

 

He might guess if I walked in wearing a hijab...or would make assumptions.  I might not wear hijab, but my kids might have names like Muhammad, Abdullah, or Fatimah or something.

 

While you talk about just going someplace else, with the level of Islamophobia that exists in certain parts of the country, it is conceivable that a Muslim family would not be able to be served in a town....that we'd need our own Green Book or something.

 

While in theory, no I don't want to patronize businesses that don't want my business, what if that leaves me with no restaurants I can use? No bakeries for my wedding? No physicians who will treat me if sick?

 

It really wasn't that long ago that Jews were also refused service in hotels and such in this country.  While a fictionalized account, "Gentleman's Agreement" is eye opening (plus it stars Gregory Peck...never a bad thing.)

[Scarlett]

I guess you honestly don't know how offensive you are being by calling homosexuality a character flaw. Or I assume you wouldn't be saying it.

 

The only other option is to silence anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I guess you honestly don't know how offensive you are being by calling homosexuality a character flaw. Or I assume you wouldn't be saying it.

 

 

The thing is that people who believe this really don't care. It is their firm belief, and they are defending it. They don't recognize homosexuality as a viable variation on or point on a spectrum of human sexuality. That's the whole point of this entire discussion. So don't even bother reminding anyone that they're being offensive. They don't agree, and they are simply living their beliefs. 

[idnib]

It baffles me that people would NOT put their religious beliefs above civil ones.

 

You don't happen to be against the people who supposedly want Shariah law in the U.S.?

[Scarlett]

The thing is that people who believe this really don't care. It is their firm belief, and they are defending it. They don't recognize homosexuality as a viable variation on or point on a spectrum of human sexuality. That's the whole point of this entire discussion. So don't even bother reminding anyone that they're being offensive. They don't agree, and they are simply living their beliefs.

It isn't that I don't care that someone is offended. i just don't see how two polar opposite beliefs can not be offensive to the other. The unique thing about a message board is that it brings people together in discussions that otherwise never would be.

 

Many many people disagree with my beliefs. I am not offended. I recognize they have the right to feel how they feel.

[DragonFaerie]

It baffles me that people would NOT put their religious beliefs above civil ones.

 

It seems to me that if everyone of every religion were to put their religious beliefs above civil ones, there would be nothing but complete and utter chaos, pretty much anarchy.

[justasque]

While you talk about just going someplace else, with the level of Islamophobia that exists in certain parts of the country, it is conceivable that a Muslim family would not be able to be served in a town....that we'd need our own Green Book or something.

 

For those who don't get the reference, umsami is referring to The Negro Motorist Green Book, published "to give the Negro traveler information that will keep him from running into difficulties, embarrassments, and to make his trips more enjoyable".  

 

It's worth taking a look at this historical artifact to get a sense of what it can be like traveling through a town full of people who might not wish to do business with you.  

 

Along with the link above to the actual guide, Wikipedia also has an excellent page about this guide and the circumstances that created a need for it.  A brief excerpt from the article:

 

The civil rights leader John Lewis has recalled how his family prepared for a trip in 1951:

 

There would be no restaurant for us to stop at until we were well out of the South, so we took our restaurant right in the car with us... Stopping for gas and to use the bathroom took careful planning. Uncle Otis had made this trip before, and he knew which places along the way offered 'colored' bathrooms and which were better just to pass on by. Our map was marked and our route was planned that way, by the distances between service stations where it would be safe for us to stop."

 

Finding accommodation was one of the greatest challenges faced by black travelers. Not only did many hotels, motels, and boarding houses refuse to serve black customers, but thousands of towns across America declared themselves "sundown towns" which all non-whites had to leave by sunset. They were not simply a phenomenon of the South. Huge numbers of towns across the country were effectively off-limits to African-Americans. By the end of the 1960s, there were at least 10,000 sundown towns across America – including large suburbs such as Glendale, California (population 60,000 at the time); Levittown, New York (80,000); and Warren, Michigan (180,000). Over half the incorporated communities in Illinois were sundown towns. The unofficial slogan of Anna, Illinois, which had violently expelled its African-American population in 1909, was "Ain't No Niggers Allowed". Even in towns which did not exclude overnight stays by blacks, accommodations were often very limited. Only six percent of the more than 100 motels that lined U.S. Route 66 in Albuquerque, New Mexico, admitted black customers. Only three motels in New Hampshire served African-Americans in 1956.

[Scarlett]

:(

 

It used to make me angry but now it just makes me sad. I hope my dd never comes across people 'who really don't care'.

The thing is Sadie if I came across your dd I doubt we would have a discussion like what we are having here.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

It isn't that I don't care that someone is offended. i just don't see how two polar opposite beliefs can not be offensive to the other. The unique thing about a message board is that it brings people together in discussions that otherwise never would be.

 

Many many people disagree with my beliefs. I am not offended. I recognize they have the right to feel how they feel.

 

That was really what I meant, not that you were being intentionally offensive and trying to get a rise out of people. I mean that you weren't going to hide or sugarcoat your beliefs because they're your beliefs, and you're not going to not speak them because you're worried about offending. So reminding you (or anyone else) that your belief is offensive isn't going to matter, because it won't have an impact on you speaking your truth. 

 

That may not be any clearer! 

[zoobie]

It baffles me that people would NOT put their religious beliefs above civil ones.

 

Or that people would put themselves in situations where their religious beliefs would become liabilities. If you value religion or certain aspects of your religion above all else, wouldn't you insulate yourself and craft your life to be as dedicated and uninterrupted as possible? (I'm thinking of the Orthodox Jews I know who have arranged their lives and occupations so that they may follow their religious laws with minimal non-Orthodox interference.) I think religion should be an area of personal responsibility. If you want to practice it, then it's up to you to do that. It's not up to society to make sure you can bounce around doing whatever you like, wherever you like and have your views trump everyone else's. Society requires that everyone works together. The baker needs the farmers and the truckers and...if each one of these people asserted some religious argument against selling or providing goods in the open market to the others, life would grind to a halt. If you value religion over society, then you craft your life thusly. You don't expect society to tailor its expectations to you.

[Veritaserum]

I suppose the people who don't care that their religious beliefs against LGBT are offensive also wash themselves of any culpability in the suicides or murders that result from expressing, preaching, or attempting to legislate their beliefs. Or maybe those deaths are irrelevant to them. Or maybe they celebrate those deaths as good.

[Scarlett]

Or that people would put themselves in situations where their religious beliefs would become liabilities. If you value religion or certain aspects of your religion above all else, wouldn't you insulate yourself and craft your life to be as dedicated and uninterrupted as possible? (I'm thinking of the Orthodox Jews I know who have arranged their lives and occupations so that they may follow their religious laws with minimal non-Orthodox interference.) I think religion should be an area of personal responsibility. If you want to practice it, then it's up to you to do that. It's not up to society to make sure you can bounce around doing whatever you like, wherever you like and have your views trump everyone else's. Society requires that everyone works together. The baker needs the farmers and the truckers and...if each one of these people asserted some religious argument against selling or providing goods in the open market to the others, life would grind to a halt. If you value religion over society, then you craft your life thusly. You don't expect society to tailor its expectations to you.

Yes.. This. I have many beliefs that are not mainstream but I live my life without making a fuss about it unless it is forced upon me.

 

Some people just like to make an issue out of things and that works both ways.

[umsami]

I never really thought about sexuality and faith growing up.  As a mainline Presbyterian, it really never came up in church. (Edited to add....it was also a luxury I had having been born with what was the more common sexual orientation. I didn't have to question it.)  I first encountered somebody whose life it changed when I was doing post-grad studies.  This guy had been a devoted Christian....involved in so many ministries, etc.  He loved his faith.  He actually gave me a lot of his theological library....great stuff....everything by CS Lewis, Bonhoeffer, Bibles in Greek and Latin, you name it.  Included were also numerous books on homosexuality and Christianity.  Lots of attempts to "cure' oneself. 

 

This was before the MCC was widespread.  The Episcopalians had not ordained any gay priests.  There were not any welcoming places to go.

 

So he left his faith....and it was devastating to him.  He believed that God must have hated him....that he was the exception...and that this was a curse.

 

 

Right now, pretty much being gay and being Muslim is similar.  (Although, there's a big underground gay culture in Saudi Arabia and other places.)  Gay Muslim men are often told to marry in an effort to "cure" themselves.  There is very little tolerance.  It is devastating.   

 

The people's lives that are ruined by these attitudes are very real.  Why, on earth, would somebody "choose" to be gay knowing that in some countries, it can get you killed?  Why "choose" to be gay when it means you lose your family, your friends, or your faith?  Why "choose" to be bullied and targeted in school?

 

I don't get how people can believe that.  It baffles me.  So the other option is that it's not a choice.  Which means that if you believe God created everybody, that it's ordained/sanctioned by God.  So honor that.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

:(

 

It used to make me angry but now it just makes me sad. I hope my dd never comes across people 'who really don't care'.

 

I don't know, I can see it both ways. I mean, if someone were to say something like that to me in real life, I'm going to give them my opinion regardless of whether or not it would offend them. I do that here! I don't sugarcoat my beliefs so that I don't offend people who believe that homosexuality is a sin--I'm not worried about offending them either. I'm not going to go insulting them and calling them bigots and telling them that their god would be ashamed of them or anything like that, but I'm going to say what I believe. Like Scarlett said, I don't think there's any way to state polar opposite beliefs without the other person feeling offended or at least miffed. 

 

ETA: I don't think I'm explaining myself well. I guess it's like this: I'm an atheist. I don't believe Jesus was the son of any god. I don't believe the Bible is the word of any god. I believe it was written by fallible men and has been translated and reinterpreted so many times as to be useless as anything more than a set of parables and morality tales. This is probably highly offensive to most Christians, but I'm not going to refrain from saying it if it comes up in conversation. It's my truth. It's bound to offend someone! But I'm happy to own it and any consequences from it. 

 

Am I making any sense? Probably not--I just had dinner and am falling asleep already :lol:

[Scarlett]

I suppose the people who don't care that their religious beliefs against LGBT are offensive also wash themselves of any culpability in the suicides or murders that result from expressing, preaching, or attempting to legislate their beliefs. Or maybe those deaths are irrelevant to them. Or maybe they celebrate those deaths as good.

 

i hope you aren't saying that my belief that homosexuality is wrong could cause a suicide. That is a pretty heavy burden to place on someone with a different opinion. Maybe you are talking about something more idk.

[LucyStoner]

Why would I care? In America, why would I care? I would go down to the next car dealership that would take my money. In fact, I'd really like to know if there is someone who doesn't want to sell me a car because I'm a woman because I would really like to not give him my money.

That's all well and good. But let's say you live a long distance from other dealerships or that ALL the dealerships in town have a reason they won't sell to you. One doesn't like people named Jodi, another thinks married people are evil, a third has a problem with your skin color and the fourth thinks you are buying it for vain or prideful reasons and kicks you out?

 

This is why we have laws that join us together in a civil society.

 

ETA- or maybe, as was the case with racial discrimination, the only dealer that WILL deal with you sells older cars with higher price tags because they know you are stuck and can't go anywhere else. We are INCREDIBLY fortunate not to have to live with this nonsense.

[Joanne]

i hope you aren't saying that my belief that homosexuality is wrong could cause a suicide. That is a pretty heavy burden to place on someone with a different opinion. Maybe you are talking about something more idk.

 

 

Actually, the research supports that culture and context contributes to the higher than average rates of addiction and suicide in sexual minorities.

 

Yes, conservative religion's view on sexual minorities **does** contribute to the multi-caused suicides of sexual minorities. In alarming numbers.

[Leav97]

For the umpteenth time, it isn't ABOUT cake. 

It is about providing goods or services -whatever they may be- for a wedding that cannot be a wedding scripturally.  That's all.   Do it or don't do it as your prerogative.

 

But no, that isn't good enough.  Instead some have to target those few who have declined and try to run them out of business for daring to hold a religious belief that is not in favor. 

 

This isn't the only place that is happening...I see a parallel with the whole vaccine/medical treatment issue and, but that's a different thread. 

 

If it isn't really a wedding then why is it a problem?

[Scarlett]

Actually, the research supports that culture and context contributes to the higher than average rates of addiction and suicide in sexual minorities.

 

Yes, conservative religion's view on sexual minorities **does** contribute to the multi-caused suicides of sexual minorities. In alarming numbers.

Hmmm.....that sounds highly manipulative to me. The research. Not the suicides.

[Scrub Jay]

Where is the scripture that says it is a sin to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple?

 

I believe it is in the Book of Cake.

 

[Veritaserum]

i hope you aren't saying that my belief that homosexuality is wrong could cause a suicide. That is a pretty heavy burden to place on someone with a different opinion. Maybe you are talking about something more idk.

Expressing, preaching, and/or attempting to legislate the wrongness of being LGBT all can and do result in the suicides or murders of LGBT--especially in communities where a majority hold anti-LGBT beleifs.

[Scarlett]

This.

 

Like, 100x.

 

Homophobic beliefs, expressions and actions do harm others.

I always get hung up on that word homophobic.....but anyway, do you see a solution to people becoming suicidal over others disagreeing with them?

[elegantlion]

I believe it is in the Book of Cake.

 

 

Thou shalt not eat of thy cake and own said cake at the same hour. 

 

 

 

rough NIV translation: You can't have your cake and eat it too. 

 

rough Message translation: Dude, you can't have it both ways. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Hmmm.....that sounds highly manipulative to me. The research. Not the suicides.

 

Why? A community's attitude is pervasive. Parents' beliefs are communicated on to and through their children. It stands to reason that most of the kids who harass and torture and bully gay children and teens--who are already aware of our society's attitude toward homosexuality and most likely agonized over their own sexual identity--have parents who disapprove of homosexuality. This attitude comes primarily from conservative religious doctrines. 

[Scarlett]

Expressing, preaching, and/or attempting to legislate the wrongness of being LGBT all can and do result in the suicides or murders of LGBT--especially in communities where a majority hold anti-LGBT beleifs.

So everyone keep quiet?

[Cindy in FL.]

Initially God gave the law on tablets of stone, and subsequently the law was written on human hearts. Many of the feelings of guilt/shame we have come from going against what our conscience knows to be true and right.

 

Actually, the research supports that culture and context contributes to the higher than average rates of addiction and suicide in sexual minorities.

 

Yes, conservative religion's view on sexual minorities **does** contribute to the multi-caused suicides of sexual minorities. In alarming numbers.

[Scarlett]

You are being obtuse.

No I am not. I sincerely am asking what is the solution? Total silence from anyone who disagrees?

[elegantlion]

Initially God gave the law on tablets of stone, and subsequently the law was written on human hearts. Many of the feelings of guilt/shame we have come from going against what our conscience knows to be true and right.

 

 

Are you saying people commit suicide over feeling guilt and shame about being gay? 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I always get hung up on that word homophobic.....but anyway, do you see a solution to people becoming suicidal over others disagreeing with them?

 

This really minimizes the impact that the bullying has on kids who are probably already in a fragile mental state, and whose own parents may not accept them as they are. Would you say the same about the kids who kill themselves after the abuse and harassment they were subject to after they were date-raped and photographed naked, and those photos were then disseminated to the whole school? It sounds disturbingly like "Man up" to me.

 

Have you ever experienced or been witness to real bullying? It's far, far more than "disagreement."

[Scarlett]

Why? A community's attitude is pervasive. Parents' beliefs are communicated on to and through their children. It stands to reason that most of the kids who harass and torture and bully gay children and teens--who are already aware of our society's attitude toward homosexuality and most likely agonized over their own sexual identity--have parents who disapprove of homosexuality. This attitude comes primarily from conservative religious doctrines.

Harassing torturing and bullying are quite different than expressing disagreement.

[DragonFaerie]

No I am not. I sincerely am asking what is the solution? Total silence from anyone who disagrees?

 

How about live and let live?  How about living your life by whatever religious (or not) doctrine you see fit and respecting the rights of others to live their lives as they see fit?

[zoobie]

i hope you aren't saying that my belief that homosexuality is wrong could cause a suicide. That is a pretty heavy burden to place on someone with a different opinion. Maybe you are talking about something more idk.

Imagine a situation where a child raised in a very conservative religious household winds up being gay. (Biological, not a choice.) I'm intentionally not saying imagine if your child... because that's icky, but you can imagine yourself in this hypothetical child's shoes. You've become something you were raised to think was deviant and wrong. Adolescents aren't known for their coping skills, you know? These kids have everything turned upside down and might feel ashamed, embarrassed, and utterly hopeless. Some kids have the resilience to carve a new, successful path for themselves. Other kids don't.

 

Is one intolerant person directly responsible for a wholly unrelated person's suicide? Of course not. But there's a pebble in a pond ripple effect.

[SemiSweet]

i hope you aren't saying that my belief that homosexuality is wrong could cause a suicide. That is a pretty heavy burden to place on someone with a different opinion. Maybe you are talking about something more idk.

Do you honestly think that this has nothing to do with the Christian rhetoric surrounding homosexuality?

 

• LGB youth are 4 times more likely, and questioning youth are 3 times more likely, to attempt suicide as their straight peers. [2]

• Suicide attempts by LGB youth and questioning youth are 4 to 6 times more likely to result in injury, poisoning, or overdose that requires treatment from a doctor or nurse, compared to their straight peers. [3]

 

http://www.thetrevorproject.org/pages/facts-about-suicide

 

http://www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/youth.htm

 

I have family that knew this boy...

 

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/12/04/family-friends-remember-12-year-old-boy-who-committed-suicide/

 

As the daughter of a gay man, I have seen his struggle in coming out, and also had my own which did, in fact, lead to multiple suicide attempts. My grandmother used to rail against my father for being a pervert, deviant (also a term used upthread), going to hell, etc. I was so confused, terrified of being gay myself, terrified my friends would find out and I'd be shunned, terrified I'd be seen at gay parades and events with my dad. It was horrible and landed me in the hospital on suicide watch more than a couple times.

 

So yes, every time you speak hatefully, no matter what your holy book says, or how you shroud it in it love the sinner, hate the sin mumbo jumbo, it very well could cause one more suicide, one more attempt.

 

Now, I'm aware that those that believe this way don't believe its hateful,that simply isn't true. I've been there and done that, and it is, indeed, hateful.

[LucyStoner]

So, to the apparent real point of this thread.

 

I, the cupcake hater, made carrot cupcakes. And they were fan-freaking-tabulous.

 

I would happily share them with anyone, gay or not.

[Veritaserum]

So everyone keep quiet?

As the parent of an at risk LGBT teen, I would love it if people would stop preaching hateful things about LGBT. At the very least, I would greatly appreciate more sensitivity from those who hold anti-LGBT opinions. I want them to know that their words and actions have a deep and lasting impact. I want them to care that their words and actions have the potential to destroy or end the lives of LGBT individual. I want them to love their LGBT neighbors.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Harassing torturing and bullying are quite different than expressing disagreement.

 

Yes. The point is that the pervasive attitude and rigid intolerance trickles down to the next generation, who often don't need much prompting to target the differences in the kids around them and begin bullying and harassing based on that. Kids who are already in the throes of struggle with their sexual identity are in a particularly bad place, and this kind of bullying is much more likely to send them over the edge. 

 

Smelly kids can shower, kids with weird clothes can buy new ones, kids with weird hair can get help with it, etc. One's sexuality is a deeply ingrained part of them--something they cannot change, no matter how much they wish they could be different; something for which their own parents may turn away from them. Being targeted for that is particularly painful. 

[Scarlett]

This really minimizes the impact that the bullying has on kids who are probably already in a fragile mental state, and whose own parents may not accept them as they are. Would you say the same about the kids who kill themselves after the abuse and harassment they were subject to after they were date-raped and photographed naked, and those photos were then disseminated to the whole school? It sounds disturbingly like "Man up" to me.

 

Have you ever experienced or been witness to real bullying? It's far, far more than "disagreement."

 

Huh? I think I am being misunderstood. I feel for anyone suffering. I don't bully or torture or say man p.

[Joanne]

I always get hung up on that word homophobic.....but anyway, do you see a solution to people becoming suicidal over others disagreeing with them?

 

 

"Disagreeing with them" is absolutely on the continuum of hate.

 

You LOVE, honor and cherish your husband. You are heterosexual. It is a part of YOU - your life - your blood - your hormones.

 

Being gay (or another sexual minority) is just like that.

"Disagreeing with them" is patronizing, trivializing and part of the context and culture that leads to suicide.

 

I'm stunned and disheartened.

 

smh

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Huh? I think I am being misunderstood. I feel for anyone suffering. I don't bully or torture or say man p.

 

Sorry, see the rest of my thoughts here:

 

 

 

Yes. The point is that the pervasive attitude and rigid intolerance trickles down to the next generation, who often don't need much prompting to target the differences in the kids around them and begin bullying and harassing based on that. Kids who are already in the throes of struggle with their sexual identity are in a particularly bad place, and this kind of bullying is much more likely to send them over the edge. 

 

Smelly kids can shower, kids with weird clothes can buy new ones, kids with weird hair can get help with it, etc. One's sexuality is a deeply ingrained part of them--something they cannot change, no matter how much they wish they could be different; something for which their own parents may turn away from them. Being targeted for that is particularly painful.

[justasque]

No I am not. I sincerely am asking what is the solution? Total silence from anyone who disagrees?

The solution is to listen, very carefully, to the testimony of homosexual people - younger people, older people, those who are from accepting communities and those who are not, those who have maintained their faith and those who have left it, those who have found a good path and those who are struggling.  Listen.  And think, and pray, and listen some more.  That is the only solution.

[Veritaserum]

Harassing torturing and bullying are quite different than expressing disagreement.

The conservative kids who harassed my daughter probably didn't really understand how damaging their words were to her. They were simply repeating things they'd been taught--things that were very damaging and hurtful for my daughter to hear.

[LucyStoner]

Lest anyone think FRC is only standing up against "the gay agenda", please let's remember that they are run by people with expressly anti-semitic views and they push extreme intolerance of Muslim people. They also don't like Catholics or any Christian not in lockstep with their views.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

No I am not. I sincerely am asking what is the solution? Total silence from anyone who disagrees?

 

Well, I don't believe you shouldn't teach your kids your beliefs. I certainly teach my kids mine. However, I also teach them that others feel differently, and that that's to be respected. Do you teach your son that about homosexuality? If you don't, then you need to accept that you're part of the culture of intolerance that contributes to the bullying we're talking about here. 

[Cindy in FL.]

Yes, I think they do. People commit suicide for a myriad of reasons. A young man I know committed suicide because his birth mother rejected him. People commit suicide because of financial stress, losing a loved one, losing a job, etc.

 

Are you saying people commit suicide over feeling guilt and shame about being gay?

[ktgrok]

Again, you are extending into areas that are not scriptural proscriptions, which is the extent of my argument.    You are branching out into arguments of prejudice, not proscription.  Not applicable. 

 

There are PLENTY of people that have a religious reason, one they base on scripture, for not believing women should work, or go out without their head covered, or drive, or speak in church, or be in a position of authority. Some people on this board, possibly on this thread, hold these beliefs. If they find out that the people lunching at table three in a restaurant they own are there on a lunch meeting, and the woman is the boss, can they refuse to serve the food because it would be participating in something they are against? They are against women working. They would be facilitating that work by letting them hold their lunch meeting there. Same thing as your homosexual wedding cake argument. 

[Cindy in FL.]

My kids have been taught my beliefs and they do not bully, harass, or demean the homosexuals that they know. My bonus sister and my cousin are lesbians and my kids would not dream of treating them that way. However, they do not believe their lifestyle choices are right.

[idnib]

Given a Pastor recently suggested that the cure for HIV/Aids was to kill all the gays, as supported in biblical scripture, the idea that those deaths are seen as good is not totally beyond the pale for some.

 

Well I'm sure something as simple as a civil law won't stand in the way of him practicing his beliefs, nor should it. Right? Right?  :sneaky2: