Some thoughts on racism ......

[SKL]

Speaking of kid media, my kids and I watch The Little Rascals shorts and Shirley Temple movies, both from like 80 years ago.  Both treat AA individuals respectfully.  Stymie in TLR is about the smartest kid there.  The creator of TLR stated that Stymie was his favorite among the kids.  Interestingly, my kids love to imitate Stymie (and only Stymie) although I have never said anything to encourage that.  But I think my point is that the idea of viewing AA people as equal in at least some ways is not as new as some believe.

 

Also, I recently read a biography of John Adams.  In it Abigail Adams (discussing a DC building site where white owners employed black slaves) is quoted as saying something like, "the blacks are a degree smarter and 10 degrees more polite than the whites."  (The Adams [and many others] were quite opposed to slavery since before the Revolutionary war.)

[Joanne]

What you can do:

 

1) stop denying the existence of racism in your life, community, geography. Trust the people who say it exists - it does.

 

2) believe people when they say they have been a victim of it. Stop looking for an out such as "it wasn't race, just a bad mood"

 

3) don't decide, as a member of at least one major majority, that the discussion should be muted or over.

 

4) be open minded about YOUR racism; it exists. No, really, it does. I consider myself low on the continuum, but I am on the continuum.

 

5) don't ever compare a moment of discrimination as a white person to the actual, institutionalized racism that has existed for literal eons.

[Guest]

Are you less prejudiced because no one around you ever talked about race? Or are you less prejudiced because the idea that that's not a great way to be was introduced to you, in combination with greater exposure to minorities and minority cultures? IOW if you were raised by racist parents and no one ever pointed out that racism isn't cool, would you really be less prejudiced than those parents?

 

To the bold, we are not saying different things. Why would the other states have decided to eschew slavery and segregation sooner? It wasn't because no one there talked about it.

Ah. Okay. I copy.

 

Now you are sort of making me wonder what combination of influences led me to embrace a different view than my parents. :)

[Guest]

Speaking of kid media, my kids and I watch The Little Rascals shorts and Shirley Temple movies, both from like 80 years ago. Both treat AA individuals respectfully. Stymie in TLR is about the smartest kid there. The creator of TLR stated that Stymie was his favorite among the kids. Interestingly, my kids love to imitate Stymie (and only Stymie) although I have never said anything to encourage that. But I think my point is that the idea of viewing AA people as equal in at least some ways is not as new as some believe.

 

Also, I recently read a biography of John Adams. In it Abigail Adams (discussing a DC building site where white owners employed black slaves) is quoted as saying something like, "the blacks are a degree smarter and 10 degrees more polite than the whites." (The Adams [and many others] were quite opposed to slavery since before the Revolutionary war.)

I barely remember the little rascals, but what about Buckwheat? I can't remember a thing about that character, but Buckwheat was what the boys in my school would call black kids in a mean-spirited way.

 

There were always some people who were decent. Wasn't it George Washington Carver's mistress owner who taught him to read and suggested he give himself the name Washington? What I meant about media is that it's pretty appalling how things were portrayed and everyone was expected to think it was funny and not horribly cruel.

[DawnM]

You know, I read an article about the boy who played him recently.

 

It said something about the family hating the character as it was very stereotypical black for the time, but they needed the money.

 

If I find it I will post it, I am trying to get some things together for Thanksgiving while going online, so I may not find it today.

 

Dawn

 

 

I barely remember the little rascals, but what about Buckwheat? I can't remember a thing about that character, but Buckwheat was what the boys in my school would call black kids in a mean-spirited way.

There were always some people who were decent. Wasn't it George Washington Carver's mistress owner who taught him to read and suggested he give himself the name Washington? What I meant about media is that it's pretty appalling how things were portrayed and everyone was expected to think it was funny and not horribly cruel.

 

[Joanne]

Speaking of kid media, my kids and I watch The Little Rascals shorts and Shirley Temple movies, both from like 80 years ago. Both treat AA individuals respectfully. Stymie in TLR is about the smartest kid there. The creator of TLR stated that Stymie was his favorite among the kids. Interestingly, my kids love to imitate Stymie (and only Stymie) although I have never said anything to encourage that. But I think my point is that the idea of viewing AA people as equal in at least some ways is not as new as some believe.

 

)

!!! AA in entertainment media were historically stereotyped, scripted, and caricatures. They were not "treated respectfully" in the two shows mentioned!

 

Today, Latinos are under represented in mainstream entertainment. I was watching old segments of Chico and The Man recently and am embarrassed we ever thought that was funny!

[SKL]

I barely remember the little rascals, but what about Buckwheat? I can't remember a thing about that character, but Buckwheat was what the boys in my school would call black kids in a mean-spirited way.

 

There were always some people who were decent. Wasn't it George Washington Carver's mistress owner who taught him to read and suggested he give himself the name Washington? What I meant about media is that it's pretty appalling how things were portrayed and everyone was expected to think it was funny and not horribly cruel.

 

Buckwheat replaced Stymie when he quit.  I also had a view of Buckwheat as stereotypical pickaninny, but as an adult, the only thing stereotypical about him was his looks.  Actually "him" is not exactly accurate, because he was a girl sometimes and a boy sometimes.  ;)  For real.  The kids treated Buckhweat as one of the gang just like his buddy (Porky?).

 

[elegantlion]

I rode a church bus when I was a kid, my mom too (she didn't drive). We were middle class suburbanites in an area that wasn't diversified - living in a decent house in a pretty much all white subdivision. We picked up kids from the apartment buildings, kids from trailer parks, IOW kids from lower socio-economics than my family, most of them were white. One day we picked up some kids and there was a black boy. He sat with me and we were playing patty-cake, I was probably 8 or 9. I distinctly remember hearing another woman and my mom commenting on how nice it was that I was playing so nicely with that black boy. I heard, I don't know if he heard but he never rode the bus again. I remember then being kind of shocked that his race was even mentioned. I mean I played with all the other kids on the bus too, it was never mentioned how nice it was that I played well with the kids from the trailer park. Even as a young child, that stuck with me, how race was perceived differently that socio-economics. 

 

I grew up in MO, I still live here. There are deeply ingrained racial issues that most people don't talk about in public. I've seen first hand the prejudice against the foreign looking doctors with non-European/American names. I see subtle racism that happens in how people are treated in public. Like Joanne said, I check myself too because I grew up around it even if I didn't like it. It will take another generation before a lot of the tension dissolves. My son is being raised differently, but many people around here aren't, especially if the views of the some of my facebook "friends" are any clue. They still see it as us vs. them. white vs. black vs. Muslim vs. Hispanic vs. whatever isn't like us. It's sad. 

[creekland]

I find it interesting that people think kids don't notice race. My daughter was noticing by the age of four. People with Asian blood were "people with hair like me." And that included a half Asian girl who I wouldn't have recognized as Asian without knowing who her father was. I think kids notice race but lack the words to express what they see. I taught my daughter about race, often explaining it as a reflection of where people's ancestors came from. My daughter herself is an immigrant from China. Perhaps with a non-immigrant child I could have avoided the topic. But why? Even though I taught her about race she continued to value people of all colors.

 

I also never meant to say that kids don't notice race at all as much as kids don't (generally) naturally care about race.  I'm sure there are some who do, but there are many, many who don't.  Most kids will ask (sooner or later) why skin/hair/eyes are different and there are real, honest answers to that question just as there are honest answers to why animals come in different colors.  Those questions get answered honestly - with the added bit that just because one dog is cream colored and another one is black (we used labs), it doesn't mean either one is better than another due to color.

 

Like you, we taught about parents/ancestry/genetics.  We never brought up behavior, lifestyle, or value with respect to color.

[Joker]

My dds never asked why other people had different skin, hair, etc. Not once. Oldest was reading a book about Jackie Robinson and first found out about the n word at about age 7. She was upset and while we were talking about it I told her I understood her upset because we would be very hurt and angry to hear someone call Aunt "K" (all their aunts, uncles, and cousins on dh's side are African American, Hispanic, or Native American) and she looked confused and then surprised. She said, "Oh, she is black". I was floored as I never had the conversation about her relatives race with her and I guess I just assumed she noticed the differences in color and such, but it really didn't register with her. That night we had a longer conversation about all her aunts' and uncles' adoptions and their backgrounds.

 

 

 

I grew up with one of the most racist grandfathers ever but his son, my dad, was the complete opposite. I have no idea why but I'm glad because we're from a small town in the south and I'm thankful we had the parents we did because that kind of talk wasn't tolerated in our home. We grew up knowing those ideas were wrong.

 

 

[LucyStoner]

What you say about race isn't what matters to kids. What matters to kids is what you do about race. If you live in a segregated community, if you socialize only with people who look like you, if you are uncomfortable around people who look differently than you, your kids learn. They are watching and learning all the time and this is an area where our words mean very little.

[LucyStoner]

:(

 

You'd probably get the same reaction out of me, but it stems from my years as a brownie leader. Inside my brain wouldn't be "white responsible person" it'd be "oh, good, someone is supervising them so I don't have to feel like a pseudo-guardian."

But you'd probably be looking concerned or interested until you saw me, not like he's a menace you need to keep your kids away from. Big difference told in subtle social cues.

 

FTR, my nephew is the opposite of a behavior problem in public. He's very shy and very mild mannered around anyone he doesn't know.

[weaver_67579]

What you say about race isn't what matters to kids. What matters to kids is what you do about race. If you live in a segregated community, if you socialize only with people who look like you, if you are uncomfortable around people who look differently than you, your kids learn. They are watching and learning all the time and this is an area where our words mean very little.

So, I live in a rural-very predominantly white community. We live on my husband's family farm. I have only friends who have similar interests (mostly homeschooling and church) and also live in a relatively close area. I do not know any AA families in the area, or Asians... I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them. You made it sound as if living in an area of predominantly one race is bad. It may just happen to be where you live. I have always lived in very rural farming areas-that also happen to be predominantly white. I am not racist. I don't care what race you are. If you are nice-I will be, If you are a jerk-you are a jerk regardless of your race. Are you implying that people should purposely move places where there is a good mix of race. We moved here to buy the family farm. Race was not a consideration. The last 3 places we lived were based on affordability and proximity to a place of employment, tax rates, flood zones, race demographics was not a consideration...

[ebunny]

I've hesitated to post whatever I'm about to...because its such a sensitive topic. But, the ferguson thread depresses me.  And since it's going around in circles, I'll express myself here.

 

For a long time, I lived as a brown skinned woman in a predominantly white skinned region.(not specific to the U.S.) Whatever follows is from my personal experience.

 

Racism is sometimes so covert and hidden, that only a person of color would notice it. It is not surprising (to me) that a general white person could be in denial about institutional racism because unless one knows what to look for...its rather easy and rather simplistic to say that 'I have ___race friends, therefore I am not racist', or 'Police officers cannot be racist' or (insert the oft repeated statement).

 

What are the different faces of racism?

 

Racism is when the store clerk serves a customer standing in line behind you first because you are brown/black and the one behind is white.

 

Racism is when you walk into an expensive store (for eg- Neiman Marcus) and the staff pointedly ignores you but attends to another person who walked in at the same time because you are brown/black/asian and the other is white.

 

Racism is when a TKD instructor introduces the children in his class and mixes up the names of the asian children and then when corrected says: "Yeah....whatever..one of those." And the white parents in the crowd snicker.

 

So, I'm hoping that the deniers on this board look carefully at the social dynamics in their neighborhoods, stores, parks, organisations, restaurants, corporates, friends groups etc etc.and learn to recognize the signs of racism.

 

[umsami]

I treat everyone I meet with kindness.  I don't know what else I can do...  It feels completely hopeless.

 

If you do that, then you are doing a lot. :)

 

If more people do that, it will cease to be hopeless.

 

I'm going to guess by your screen name that you might be Christian (assuming Him=Jesus), if you are, you might want to check out the Sojourners.   They are a Christian social justice group/magazine.   The American Friends Service Committee might also interest you (they are Quakers.)

 

Sometimes getting involved with groups who you can see are actively making a difference (even if only a few lives), it can help.

[CaffeineDiary]

Personal incidents of racism might work two ways, but institutional racism really only works one way. If you won't recognize there is a difference, then why would you feel a need to fight for the oppressed against an unjust system?

 

Yeah.  I've picked up toy guns in Wal-Mart plenty of times and never once had to think to myself "I wonder if a police officer is going to shoot me for picking this up?"

[creekland]

So, I live in a rural-very predominantly white community. We live on my husband's family farm. I have only friends who have similar interests (mostly homeschooling and church) and also live in a relatively close area. I do not know any AA families in the area, or Asians... I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them. You made it sound as if living in an area of predominantly one race is bad. It may just happen to be where you live. I have always lived in very rural farming areas-that also happen to be predominantly white. I am not racist. I don't care what race you are. If you are nice-I will be, If you are a jerk-you are a jerk regardless of your race. Are you implying that people should purposely move places where there is a good mix of race. We moved here to buy the family farm. Race was not a consideration. The last 3 places we lived were based on affordability and proximity to a place of employment, tax rates, flood zones, race demographics was not a consideration...

 

I grew up in a very homogeneous white area.  I think I turned out ok.  Others might disagree. 

[Slartibartfast]

No. I believe that constantly discussing racism, sensitivity training for 5 year olds, anti-racist messages on commercials, etc. enforce the idea of racism. Telling a white child that a black child is just like them is stupid when children already think that way. You're just causing them to question it. I'm not talking about when racism is in your face. Ignorance needs to be challenged, but I believe that many of things we do to combat racism breed ignorance.

But when Cheerios did a commercial featuring a multiracial family tons of people freaked out.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/business/media/an-american-family-returns-to-the-table.html

 

When a character in Hunger Games movie (who was described as black in the book) was played by a black *little girl* people freaked out. Of course....I think many of the twitter accounts have since been deleted or abandoned because responses were less than gracious.

 

When a little boy who happens to sing Mariachi (but was born in the US and is an American) was chosen to sing the National Anthem at the NBA finals, people freaked out.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/us/mexican-american-boy-sings-anthem/

 

 

He was *stunning*

 

 

 

I think the messages need to continue, there are a lot of people out there who are ignorant or think it doesn't matter but some people live it everyday. While the discussion might be disheartening I think it still needs to be said.

[Slache]

But when Cheerios did a commercial featuring a multiracial family tons of people freaked out.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/business/media/an-american-family-returns-to-the-table.html

 

When a character in Hunger Games movie (who was described as black in the book) was played by a black *little girl* people freaked out. Of course....I think many of the twitter accounts have since been deleted or abandoned because responses were less than gracious.

 

When a little boy who happens to sing Mariachi (but was born in the US and is an American) was chosen to sing the National Anthem at the NBA finals, people freaked out.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/us/mexican-american-boy-sings-anthem/

 

 

He was *stunning*

 

 

 

I think the messages need to continue, there are a lot of people out there who are ignorant or think it doesn't matter but some people live it everyday. While the discussion might be disheartening I think it still needs to be said.

 

I understand and agree with where you're coming from, I just feel that if the idea of racism isn't there don't introduce it. SKL sumed it up nicely:

 

 

"When my kids did the MLK lesson in KG, they came home saying "at least my skin isn't as dark as M__'s (their AA classmate whom one of my kids had recently said she was going to marry, but no longer).  This was all the more concerning to me because my kids' skin is brown.  Up until that day, their skin was just different.  After that day, their skin was inferior."

 

 

 

I've been to those "we're all equal" assemblies and this was the result I've seen. I'm white and fortunate enough that my kids are exposed to an East Indian family, a Cambodian family, several Mexican, and several African families regularly. We don't have to combat racism because it's just not in their systems. I don't know what I'd do in different situations, I just don't want some school to sit my son down next to his best friend and say "Hey, do you see all these difference between you and Jimmy? Ignore them."

[SKL]

Another thing, I think it's time we presented people like MLK, Harriet Tubman, etc. as people in "OUR" history / heritage.  Not just black people's history.

 

When I moved to a school that had a mixed population (8th grade), I looked at the list of clubs and decided to check out some ___ Culture Club (I do not remember the name, it might have been African Culture Club or some other that implied more diversity).  I was told none of the clubs were exclusive as to race.  I attended the first meeting, and not only was I the only non-black person there, but I was treated with coldness and suspicion and was clearly not wanted.  Needless to say I never went back.  What the club focused on was African American history and culture.  I never did understand why black people would not want white people to know more about these things, especially presented in a positive context.

 

And now I guess February is black history month or whatever it's called nowadays, but do they fully involve white kids, or is it mostly blacks saying "this is *my* history"?  (Or whites saying this is "their" history?)  Is it thought that white people cannot be proud of the achievements of black people?  Maybe that was true some time in the past, but I don't believe it's true now.

 

We need to work more on moving away from "us" vs. "them" or progress will be slowed.

[SKL]

 

I understand and agree with where you're coming from, I just feel that if the idea of racism isn't there don't introduce it. SKL sumed it up nicely:

 

 

"When my kids did the MLK lesson in KG, they came home saying "at least my skin isn't as dark as M__'s (their AA classmate whom one of my kids had recently said she was going to marry, but no longer).  This was all the more concerning to me because my kids' skin is brown.  Up until that day, their skin was just different.  After that day, their skin was inferior."

 

 

 

I've been to those "we're all equal" assemblies and this was the result I've seen. I'm white and fortunate enough that my kids are exposed to an East Indian family, a Cambodian family, several Mexican, and several African families regularly. We don't have to combat racism because it's just not in their systems. I don't know what I'd do in different situations, I just don't want some school to sit my son down next to his best friend and say "Hey, do you see all these difference between you and Jimmy? Ignore them."

 

Re those examples in the quoted post, I totally agree there are still some ignorant people in the USA.  BUT, that includes many people who received the school lessons about MLK etc.  I don't think the school lessons were well-designed.  They point out racist ideas to some kids, but they fail to rid truly racist families of their biases.

 

The thing I've seen working best is having kids mix on a regular basis.  Even in neighborhoods where the population is pretty homogeneous, there should be some effort put into getting a mix kids together for some events throughout the year, where kids really get time to work and play with others who look different, maybe dress different, etc.  Don't point out the differences, just mix them up.  It needs to start young and continue throughout childhood.

 

And as mentioned above, discuss social progress as "our" proud history of achieving better relationships and more humanity and tapping into the diverse resources in our country.

[Harriet Vane]

What you can do:

 

1) stop denying the existence of racism in your life, community, geography. Trust the people who say it exists - it does.

 

2) believe people when they say they have been a victim of it. Stop looking for an out such as "it wasn't race, just a bad mood"

 

3) don't decide, as a member of at least one major majority, that the discussion should be muted or over.

 

4) be open minded about YOUR racism; it exists. No, really, it does. I consider myself low on the continuum, but I am on the continuum.

 

5) don't ever compare a moment of discrimination as a white person to the actual, institutionalized racism that has existed for literal eons.

 

Well said!!!

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

:hurray:

[goldberry]

 

No. I believe that constantly discussing racism, sensitivity training for 5 year olds, anti-racist messages on commercials, etc. enforce the idea of racism. Telling a white child that a black child is just like them is stupid when children already think that way. You're just causing them to question it. 

 

I didn't go out of my way to discuss racism with my 5 y/o, since we were not racist in ANY WAY or allowed anything like that in our home, and in fact, her best little friend from church was black.  Then she came home from preschool saying she had no one to play with after one other friend rejected her.  I explained there were lots of other little girls there, and she proceeded to tell me, "I can't play with them because their skin is different..."    ???!!!???!!!   Apparently she got that message from *somewhere*.

 

It's silly to think they are shielded from it somehow because your family is not that way.  The fact is the anti-racism messages are necessary, because they WILL be exposed to it at some point in time, and they need to already know it's a load of crap. Kind of like if you don't teach your kid how you want them to view sex, the rest of the world will take care of it for you.  Pro-active, not re-active.

[Scarlett]

I find it interesting that people think kids don't notice race. My daughter was noticing by the age of four. People with Asian blood were "people with hair like me." And that included a half Asian girl who I wouldn't have recognized as Asian without knowing who her father was. I think kids notice race but lack the words to express what they see. I taught my daughter about race, often explaining it as a reflection of where people's ancestors came from. My daughter herself is an immigrant from China. Perhaps with a non-immigrant child I could have avoided the topic. But why? Even though I taught her about race she continued to value people of all colors.

This was my experience too. My ds was 5 when he had a black boy in his piano class. He made mention of there only being one brown boy in the class and the boys mom made a federal case out of it. She strongly objected to the word brown to describe her son....and when I in all sincerity ask her why it was offensive to her she looked horrified and said, "have you never heard of slavery?!" That is still a head scratcher to me. After that I just told ds to avoid saying brown...and we tried to stay out of their way. Eventually when the boy held my son up by his ankles the teacher put my son in a different class.

 

Although that particular boy was out of our life, the description continued to be a problem. Whenever he would discuss race he would use the word brown. I reminded him that apparently was offensive to some black people...and he was just perplexed because he said that boy and many others he had seen were indeed brown not black. There were a few years where he would ask me about random people we would see and wonder what race they were...he grew out of that it seems,...and now one of his best friends is a girl who is half Hawaiian and they have no problems because she often refers to herself as brown.

 

So it comes back to being kind and sensitive. I just do the best I can.