Just learned my kid is a bully

[Alte Veste Academy]

But dd is kinda two-faced. In those conversations, she tells me what I want to hear, because she wants to please me. But then she turns around and does whatever she needs to do to please her little friends. She perceives the power structure in the neighborhood kid group and wants to be sure she associates with the powerful kids, even if that means selling out and doing things she knows she shouldn't do.

So, do I never let her play at anyone else's house?

I definitely don't allow her to blame other kids. She has tried to blame her mean/mischievous friend for things before, by saying how badly friend wanted her to do something, and I always, always point out that it's always her choice. SHE is the one who does it in the end.

 

I'm not making excuses for dd. Not at all. Because the things she has said to this girl are inexcusably cruel. When I talked to her tonight, the whole talk was about protecting people's feelings; people's feelings are more important than whether or not our friends think we're cool; be the kind of friend you want your friends to be to you; anyone who is mean WITH you, will eventually be mean TO you, so let's just change this pattern before it gets worse, etc. I talked to her a lot about how I know that deep down, she's a very sweet friend who likes everyone to feel good. I told her I would love to see that version of her again--I think ALL of her friends would love that version of her. And I told her it doesn't matter what she tells me, I just want her to be honest with herself. I said, "Ask yourself this question, and tell yourself the truth. I won't even know the answer. Ask yourself, 'Am I the very best friend I can be?'"

 

So the talk with her was all about her...but when I talked to dh afterward, I did note that this other girl isn't entirely innocent....

But the ways that your DD was mean to this girl had nothing to do with the girl's sensitivity. As you pointed out, she was trying to hurt her feelings. I get that the kid may have been a squeaky wheel (we have one here too), but if you know she is at the bottom of the food chain, she knows it too, and it likely colors her perception of the situation. Fairly.

 

Based on the bolded, in my house there would be zero contact, supervised or not, with your DD's bullying friend. I am confused as to why you have allowed the friendship to continue at all when you say, "this friend is mean to my little kids and is always mean to other neighbor kids when they're here." Huh!?! That is HUGE! I tell my kids all the time, you are who you hang with. Well now this has become your DD's view of friendship and relationship and it will take a while to undo. Even longer to make sure your DD's "two faces" become one. We are influenced by our peers, some kids more than others, and this has been your DD's model...for how long? Wouldn't have to be long. She is SO young. The older my kids get, the more I realize how young they were when x, y, or z happened, and I shake my head at myself. Your expectations are unrealistic. You are asking her to mold herself to your (wise) words while you undermine those words by letting her hang with someone who behaves completely opposite in word and deed. I highly recommend reading Hold On to Your Kids.

 

All the talk in the world can't replace what her little mentor shows her day after day. I am absolutely not saying that your DD is not responsible for her own behavior, by the way. She should be held accountable for her actions. I am saying that she is too young to be allowed to hang with a girl who, frankly, seems to have extremely impaired friendship skills and come out of that unscathed. You are asking a very young child to have an impossibly strong backbone, sense of self, assertiveness skills... Should she be responsible for her own behavior? Of course. But as mom, you are responsible for protecting her from what you know to be true but she is too young to really understand: "Anyone who is mean WITH you, will eventually be mean TO you, so let's just change this pattern before it gets worse." Well it got worse, twice over now, at least. You have been letting her hang with this girl, against your better judgment. Like I said, there would be zero contact with this girl. My DD would be made responsible for her behavior, and I would make myself responsible for my own behavior as mother. Like it or not, you were effectively endorsing the behavior, even as you were condemning it.

 

ETA: I feel like I sound very harsh in this post, but I don't mean to be. This stuff is hard. I know that closely supervising play dates and neighborhood play, especially when you have younger kids who cannot participate, gets really really really old. I get that. I did my time in the camp chair in the driveway supervising the kids playing...and I was the only one in my neighborhood who did. I'm telling you, people had NO idea what their kids were really like outside their home. Didn't seem to care either. It takes effort and time, time, time... But I believe that who my kids are will be largely determined by the guidance they receive from us, and they sometimes need strict supervision for us to truly know the type of guidance they need most.

[Audrey]

This is a bit of a different take, and I agree with the supervision of play dates until your dd shows maturity and good judgment and kindness.  But since you talked to this mom for a very long time about specifics regarding how dd was mean to her dd and this is a mom that you seem to know and have a relationship with to some degree, I would get both dds and both moms in the same room and discuss it.  That lets your dd know that her actions are known by all and that they are unacceptable.  Your dd should also express an apology to the other girl. 

 

That is what I would do if I had a dd being mean to another girl like this to the point at which the other child's mother kept her inside from playing.  I would then supervise closely all playdates with all children.

 

 

I wouldn't do that -- sit the girls down to hash it all out.  When you're the bullied kid, that is the worst, most embarrassing, most emotionally painful thing you can do.  She'll just be trapped there having to relive through every single rotten thing that comes out and in every one she's the one who got trashed.

 

I absolutely hate it when schools use that method as a means of "reconciling" between a bully and their victims.  It's just re-victimizing the poor kid.

[texasmama]

I wouldn't do that -- sit the girls down to hash it all out.  When you're the bullied kid, that is the worst, most embarrassing, most emotionally painful thing you can do.  She'll just be trapped there having to relive through every single rotten thing that comes out and in every one she's the one who got trashed.

 

I absolutely hate it when schools use that method as a means of "reconciling" between a bully and their victims.  It's just re-victimizing the poor kid.

I didn't intend it at all that way, and I don't think it has to be experienced like that, particularly not the hashing out but the empowering of the hurt party and the taking responsibility of the other party with adults there to supervise and model that this is what you do when you have a problem with someone, address it. 

 

I had a similar experience in my childhood in which I was the bullied child in elementary.  My mother got involved and spoke to the other mother and the child in my presence, which I found empowering, not emotionally painful. 

 

I think you and I must not be imagining the same type of experience, which would be very different with two moms and the kids rather than how it might play out at school in the principal's office.

[Farrar]

Sort of an aside, but I wonder sometimes if "hashing it out" which I thought was this great positive thing when I was younger, doesn't just lead to more emotional drama in the long run. I used to think it was good to try to "work everything out" but now - for kids and adults - I wonder if the more important skill is to be able to make a simple apology or accept a simple apology and just move on. Or to say, this relationship isn't right and just move on, without the drama of trying to make it work and fix everything.

[Starr]

Sort of an aside, but I wonder sometimes if "hashing it out" which I thought was this great positive thing when I was younger, doesn't just lead to more emotional drama in the long run. I used to think it was good to try to "work everything out" but now - for kids and adults - I wonder if the more important skill is to be able to make a simple apology or accept a simple apology and just move on. Or to say, this relationship isn't right and just move on, without the drama of trying to make it work and fix everything.

 

 

I've thought about this as well. It might work for a good relationship but certainly not with a bully. Throw the mom protecting the mean girl in and it isn't pretty. By high school my last offer was for the teen girls to sit down with their dads and work it out. lol I never heard from that mom again.

[Matryoshka]

I honestly don't think the other child's 'sensitivity' matters at all. What if she weren't a sensitive kid? What if you heard or saw your child say those things when they happened? How would you respond? Would it be ok with you? If it isn't how you want your child to treat anyone, then how does her 'sensitivity' come into it?

 

Put that aside and deal with your own kid. If it wasn't in line with how you think your child should act, then that is the issue. If my kid knows I don't allow him to play a certain type of video game, then he can't play it even if the other parent says it is allowed in their house. My kids know that and speak up. My rules and expectations don't end at the front door. The same with my expectations of his character. I expect my child to treat everyone with respect and kindness at all times, not just people who are 'typical' in their responses.

 

I'll have to agree with this.  Most targets of bullies have something that make them targets.  Is it somehow less bad to bully someone because they're sensitive? Or quirky?  Or dress funny?  Or are just weird? That smacks of telling the victim "they should suck it up" and "stop being so sensitive/such a baby" or "try to fit in and act like the other kids."   These are not excuses to bully or otherwise be mean to another person. 

 

Also, OP wasn't within hearing range when she saw these behaviors?  And says she knows her kid said really cruel things?  Did the kid stick her tongue out and/or cry after one of those things?  How do we know she was just being "sensitive"?  Sticking her tongue out could be how she's trying to stand up for herself (and better than slugging the mean kid to get them to stop).  What is the appropriate 'non-sensitive' response to someone saying really cruel things to you when you're 7?

 

[zoobie]

Sort of an aside, but I wonder sometimes if "hashing it out" which I thought was this great positive thing when I was younger, doesn't just lead to more emotional drama in the long run. I used to think it was good to try to "work everything out" but now - for kids and adults - I wonder if the more important skill is to be able to make a simple apology or accept a simple apology and just move on. Or to say, this relationship isn't right and just move on, without the drama of trying to make it work and fix everything.

In a bullying situation, you're absolutely correct. Research says peer mediation and "hashing it out" increases bullying rather than decreasing it, and it's more traumatic to the victim.

 

The other girl's mother needs to work with her child independently to figure out what she can do to be less of a target, but not with the OP's child.

 

I thought there was a recent thread from OP regarding the original mean girl where everyone recommended the 7 year old be supervised while playing with other kids because she was emulating the mean girl. Advice from that stands x 1000. She is young and clearly needs more help interacting with others. Ignoring it will (as proven already) cause the undesired and unkind behavior to escalate.

[foxbridgeacademy]

As I was reading your post I was assuming you talking you were talking about an 11 or 12 year old or a teen. When I saw you were talking about a 7 year old I was surprised and then. . . happy. Happy for you . . . meaning. . . you can fix this at this age.

 

Yes, control her playdates. She has way too much leeway for a kid this young. And if she has a friend who is a full-on bully that friendship needs to end. In my mind that's like letting her be friends w/ a kid who's abusive physically. Except in this case it's emotional.

 

The situation is so bad that your neighbor is keeping her girl indoors. Things are really bad. It's time to take complete control -- in a positive way. She clearly can't handle the amount of freedom she's had. She may just be too sensitive for it. Meaning she's too easily pushed around by aggressive kids.

 

Alley

I also thought child was older and felt really bad for you.  By the time they get to 11 and 12 it becomes very difficult to break this type of behavior.  At 7 you have a very good chance of helping her back to being a nice sweet girl again.  The only thing I would do differently then what most of the PP's suggested is that I wouldn't make dd be friends with the neighbor girl.  Apologize, be polite and friendly.  I wouldn't force it though.  I also would never tell her she couldn't be friends with the mean girl.... the whole I want what I can't have syndrome.  Instead I would ground DD for a reasonable amount of time from playing with anyone.  Make it long enough she starts to get bored.  If she asks to play with mean girl I would allow it for a short period of time under my supervision only.  As for other neighbor girl I would allow it for longer also under mine or the girl's mothers's supervision.  When she asks why she can't just run loose like she used too remind her that her behavior toward the neighbor girl is the reason.  

[texasmama]

Sort of an aside, but I wonder sometimes if "hashing it out" which I thought was this great positive thing when I was younger, doesn't just lead to more emotional drama in the long run. I used to think it was good to try to "work everything out" but now - for kids and adults - I wonder if the more important skill is to be able to make a simple apology or accept a simple apology and just move on. Or to say, this relationship isn't right and just move on, without the drama of trying to make it work and fix everything.

This is closer to what I imagine between the moms and kids.  There is no place for "hashing it out" with kids this age and no point.  What I had in mind was the OP's child taking responsibility for the specific things she did which harmed the child in whatever way she is able given her personality, stage of development, etc and the other child receiving the support of the OP and her own mother.  The other child's "issues" are not for the OP to discuss or concern herself with, only the issues at hand, which were repeated and meant to hurt the other child.  (Not to overstate the gravity of this because she is SEVEN, and as others have stated, there is plenty of time for change.) 

 

It sounds like the OP's child has been needing a higher level of supervision for some time, and the OP just now became aware of that.  Due to the OP's child's youth and immaturity and whatever factors have gone into this, the child developed some bad habits and got away with some behaviors that the OP does not endorse.  No big deal.  The ship has not sailed.  Just reign in the supervision.  But I would have the OP's child take responsibility for her actions in whatever way makes sense to the OP.  This could be a one minute exchange.  It doesn't have to drag on and on.  The issues are not complex, and they are pretty garden variety little kid stuff.

[texasmama]

Just move on is my kids' votes.  One was in a 3rd grade with a batch of special needs "emotionally disturbed" children...every afternoon after recess, the sped teacher would hash it out. Trouble was, she wasn't on the playground. The lying was beyond belief; the hashing just made things worse as the kids started using her to add power to the victim dynamic they were creating while they were physically attacking the nonspecial needs class members and gaining negative peer attention by hogging the playground equipment.  I called the school psych after the first week and told her I didn't care who was lonely at recess...anyone that acts on their urge to hurt is not a person my child is going to play with, ever. My child cannot substitute for the lack of attention in the home. An 8 yr old is not qualified to help an angry neglected child learn to play like a neurotypical child.  They ended the hashing out session immediately.

I'm sorry that your child had this experience, and it was not handled appropriately.  I don't think it translates directly to the situation with the OP, though.  Again, a school and multiple kids are involved, not two caring parents and two little girls.  (I have made the assumption that both girls are NT, and perhaps I should not have made that.)

[shawthorne44]

If that were my child, not only would all play dates be under my supervision, but my DD wouldn't be allowed to play in the front yard.   Because of your DD, the neighbor child hasn't been able to play in her front yard for quite awhile.  You have a date for some of the bullying, your DD's birthday.  Whatever time span it has been since then, would be how long DD would be banned from the front yard.  Then I'd call the neighbor mom and tell her that her DD can play in her front yard without fear.  

[Tanaqui]

I wouldn't do that -- sit the girls down to hash it all out.  When you're the bullied kid, that is the worst, most embarrassing, most emotionally painful thing you can do.  She'll just be trapped there having to relive through every single rotten thing that comes out and in every one she's the one who got trashed.

 

An especially vicious child - not that the OP's kid is, I don't think - could even deliberately set it up that way, as in "I'm sorry I told everybody you were such a baby because you still suck your thumb and play with baby dolls, like a baby. It was mean, and I should not have told everybody that you were a baby", so yeah, now everybody who didn't hear that she's a baby has heard it. Gee, thanks, ye guidance counselors of the world!

 

[Guest submarines]

I honestly don't think the other child's 'sensitivity' matters at all. What if she weren't a sensitive kid? What if you heard or saw your child say those things when they happened? How would you respond? Would it be ok with you? If it isn't how you want your child to treat anyone, then how does her 'sensitivity' come into it?

 

Put that aside and deal with your own kid. If it wasn't in line with how you think your child should act, then that is the issue. If my kid knows I don't allow him to play a certain type of video game, then he can't play it even if the other parent says it is allowed in their house. My kids know that and speak up. My rules and expectations don't end at the front door. The same with my expectations of his character. I expect my child to treat everyone with respect and kindness at all times, not just people who are 'typical' in their responses.

 

Sensitivity (as described) matters a lot. I have a sensitive / rigid child. Many a time she'd build a mountain out of a molehill in a matter of seconds and overreact (less now at 12, way more at 7.) This kind of a child is extremely difficult to get along with, unfortunately. She's matured and learned to cope, but I had to coach her on how not to alienate her friends, how to be more flexible and tolerant.

 

It seems that the OP's child and the "sensitive" child draw the worst out of each other. They are not a good match. They likely drain each other emotionally.

 

I certainly wouldn't put all the blame on the OP's child. And I'm the other of a "insanely sensitive" child. These children *are* difficult t get along with. The OP's child didn't react well, and I'd worry about the other "mean" friends, but she is only 7.

[Guest submarines]

I also thought child was older and felt really bad for you.  By the time they get to 11 and 12 it becomes very difficult to break this type of behavior.  At 7 you have a very good chance of helping her back to being a nice sweet girl again.  The only thing I would do differently then what most of the PP's suggested is that I wouldn't make dd be friends with the neighbor girl.  Apologize, be polite and friendly.  I wouldn't force it though.  I also would never tell her she couldn't be friends with the mean girl.... the whole I want what I can't have syndrome.  Instead I would ground DD for a reasonable amount of time from playing with anyone.  Make it long enough she starts to get bored.  If she asks to play with mean girl I would allow it for a short period of time under my supervision only.  As for other neighbor girl I would allow it for longer also under mine or the girl's mothers's supervision.  When she asks why she can't just run loose like she used too remind her that her behavior toward the neighbor girl is the reason.  

 

I also wouldn't force the friendship with the neighbor, but depending on the circumstances banning the "mean" friends might be exactly what the OP's child wants. When DD was 8 / 9 she was locked in a "friendship" with a girl who was an emotional bully. She was very subtle, and they'd have good moments, and it was very difficult for DD to quit the relationship. I struggled a lot whether to allow the girls to figure it out with some guidance from the parents, or not. Eventually, after seeing DD in tears again I told her she wasn't allowed to play with that child anymore. DD's reaction? A huge sigh of relief--a literal sigh. It was like tension left her body. I didn't expect this.

[shawthorne44]

There is a really good book might want to read on Mean Girls and how to handle them.  It will help you coach your daughter.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Queen-Bees-Wannabes-Boyfriends-Realities/dp/0307454444/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1412620202&sr=1-1&keywords=queen+bees+and+wannabees

 

I haven't read one, it just came up when I was searching for the Queen Bee book, but I think I will.  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Little-Girls-Can-Mean-Bully-proof/dp/0312615523/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1412620640&sr=1-1&keywords=Little+Girls+Can+Be+Mean

[myfunnybunch]

Sensitivity (as described) matters a lot. I have a sensitive / rigid child. Many a time she'd build a mountain out of a molehill in a matter of seconds and overreact (less now at 12, way more at 7.) This kind of a child is extremely difficult to get along with, unfortunately. She's matured and learned to cope, but I had to coach her on how not to alienate her friends, how to be more flexible and tolerant.

 

It seems that the OP's child and the "sensitive" child draw the worst out of each other. They are not a good match. They likely drain each other emotionally.

 

I certainly wouldn't put all the blame on the OP's child. And I'm the other of a "insanely sensitive" child. These children *are* difficult t get along with. The OP's child didn't react well, and I'd worry about the other "mean" friends, but she is only 7.

 

I think the point about the other child's behavior being irrelevant is not about who to blame. The point is that regardless of another person's behavior, we are only responsible for our own. One person's behavior does not excuse our own rudeness.

 

We don't bully. Full stop.

 

The other child's behavior does not enter that equation. How the OP's child acts and reacts toward that child is the issue that the OP and her daughter need to handle.

 

I do think you're right on about being aware of the traits that the bullied child may bring out in the OP's child. Teaching a child how to deal with someone who brings out their worst is an important part of teaching healthy boundaries and respect for others. For example, courtesy when they are in the same space or the same group regardless of the actions of the rest of the group, limiting the kinds of activities done together, structuring their time together with adult help in order to create a more positive social relationship/feedback cycle, or choosing not to play together.

 

Cat

[texasmama]

I would not agree that this is a caring parent. It sounds like a wake up call has been sounded, and the defensiveness has begun. The caring is centered on the offspring, not on the relationship with the neighbors or anyone else. Nothing is going to change, until the child reaches the age where the court intervenes.  Seen it many many times now. Odds are that the gal goes into cell phone and cyberbullying if she can't be physically close enough to her target to bully in person.  That's what they do when parent supervision is this slack. The neighbors will move as soon as they are able.

Re: the bolded, are you referring to the OP?

[Farrar]

I think the point about the other child's behavior being irrelevant is not about who to blame. The point is that regardless of another person's behavior, we are only responsible for our own. One person's behavior does not excuse our own rudeness.

 

We don't bully. Full stop.

 

The other child's behavior does not enter that equation. How the OP's child acts and reacts toward that child is the issue that the OP and her daughter need to handle.

 

I do think you're right on about being aware of the traits that the bullied child may bring out in the OP's child. Teaching a child how to deal with someone who brings out their worst is an important part of teaching healthy boundaries and respect for others. For example, courtesy when they are in the same space or the same group regardless of the actions of the rest of the group, limiting the kinds of activities done together, structuring their time together with adult help in order to create a more positive social relationship/feedback cycle, or choosing not to play together.

 

Cat

 

But no one acts in a vacuum. Imagine a kid who is trying to be good, to do as she knows she is "supposed" to - because at this age, actual empathy is pretty rare - and there's another kid who, no matter what she does, refuses to be satisfied, refuses to cooperate, refuses to budge, when there's an accident or misunderstanding, takes it as a grave offense and can't accept an apology - eventually, that urge to just be nasty becomes much harder to fight - because you feel like the other child is being nasty to you. It's like putting a hungry, impulsive kid in a room of donuts they can't eat.

 

I think that's a big exaggeration of the circumstances the OP described, but just to say, it matters! How can it not matter? Yes, we're all responsible for our own behavior. But even adults who have committed crimes get to have mitigating and aggravating circumstances presented in court. And this is a seven year old. On some level, seven year olds are not fully responsible for their own behavior. Which is why this kid needs to be supervised. She can only learn to control herself, that's very true... but it takes a lot of people ages to figure out how to work with difficult people or people who push our particular buttons.

 

I feel like we've probably scared Bucolic away. Bucolic, how did it work out?

[Farrar]

I would not agree that this is a caring parent. It sounds like a wake up call has been sounded, and the defensiveness has begun. The caring is centered on the offspring, not on the relationship with the neighbors or anyone else. Nothing is going to change, until the child reaches the age where the court intervenes.  Seen it many many times now. Odds are that the gal goes into cell phone and cyberbullying if she can't be physically close enough to her target to bully in person.  That's what they do when parent supervision is this slack. The neighbors will move as soon as they are able.

 

Really, Bucolic posts one thing about how she realized the other girl is sensitive and is trying to figure out how to handle things and you're saying that her seven year old can't possibly change, is bound to end up as a cyberbully and force your neighbors out of the neighborhood? She came here and asked for help and ideas to make her kid change. 

 

I don't get the idea that you shouldn't care about your kid. Of course she cares about her kid. It's her kid. She's upset and trying to figure out how to love her through this. I don't think any bully was ever turned around by having their parents stop caring about them.

 

The attitude with which a lot of people have posted in this thread attacking the mother make me feel like this, itself, may be one of the reasons we're struggling as a society to curb bullying culture. Teenage bullies who prank classmates with dangerous stunts maybe don't deserve so much understanding, but surely the way to stop bullies is by creating a more supportive culture for kids in general. If we back every bully and parent of a bully at a young age - kids who have bullied once, not caused any physical harm yet, are still even in the first half of elementary school - into a corner and push, then of course they're going to be defensive. No seven year old is a horrible, cyberbullying, violent kid yet. But you treat people like criminals, they become more like criminals.

[myfunnybunch]

But no one acts in a vacuum. Imagine a kid who is trying to be good, to do as she knows she is "supposed" to - because at this age, actual empathy is pretty rare - and there's another kid who, no matter what she does, refuses to be satisfied, refuses to cooperate, refuses to budge, when there's an accident or misunderstanding, takes it as a grave offense and can't accept an apology - eventually, that urge to just be nasty becomes much harder to fight - because you feel like the other child is being nasty to you. It's like putting a hungry, impulsive kid in a room of donuts they can't eat.

 

I think that's a big exaggeration of the circumstances the OP described, but just to say, it matters! How can it not matter? Yes, we're all responsible for our own behavior. But even adults who have committed crimes get to have mitigating and aggravating circumstances presented in court. And this is a seven year old. On some level, seven year olds are not fully responsible for their own behavior. Which is why this kid needs to be supervised. She can only learn to control herself, that's very true... but it takes a lot of people ages to figure out how to work with difficult people or people who push our particular buttons.

 

I feel like we've probably scared Bucolic away. Bucolic, how did it work out?

 

I see what you're saying. And I don't think this is about blaming the OP's child. She's 7. It is really about figuring out what she needs to learn when comes to negotiating difficult social situations.

 

Impatience and aggravation and irritation are natural responses to annoying behavior. Heck, I still slip in this area sometimes. But deliberate targeted unkindness is not acceptable. Ever.

 

That's where the teaching part comes in. What DO you do when you cannot tolerate another person's behavior? How do you set healthy boundaries respectfully? How can the adults gently set examples and facilitate interactions that encourage a healthy supportive dynamic. I wouldn't expect a 7 y.o. to figure that out on her own, and believe that guidance and supervision go a lot further than blame anyway.

 

Cat

[Farrar]

I see what you're saying. And I don't think this is about blaming the OP's child. She's 7. It is really about figuring out what she needs to learn when comes to negotiating difficult social situations.

 

Impatience and aggravation and irritation are natural responses to annoying behavior. Heck, I still slip in this area sometimes. But deliberate targeted unkindness is not acceptable. Ever.

 

That's where the teaching part comes in. What DO you do when you cannot tolerate another person's behavior? How do you set healthy boundaries respectfully? How can the adults gently set examples and facilitate interactions that encourage a healthy supportive dynamic. I wouldn't expect a 7 y.o. to figure that out on her own, and believe that guidance and supervision go a lot further than blame anyway.

 

Cat

:iagree:  Yes, totally agreed. It's hopefully not about blame - not for the parents, the "bully," the "sensitive" neighbor, or the "bad influence" but rather about moving on, learning and coaching, and making changes.

[Audrey]

:iagree:  Yes, totally agreed. It's hopefully not about blame - not for the parents, the "bully," the "sensitive" neighbor, or the "bad influence" but rather about moving on, learning and coaching, and making changes.

 

 

FWIW, my post opining not to sit down with the other girl and hash it out is not about blame.  It is, however, about not opening old wounds, and about not putting the bullied girl into a painful position.

 

My opinion is that no one should have a sit down between the girls.  The OP has a lot of work to do with her dd, and there are some good ideas here to cherry pick.  However, if the OP's daughter ever feels TRULY moved to offer the girl a sincere apology, then she should do so, but she should never be stuck in front of her to be forced into some kind of make-up meeting.  Also, if that sincere apology ever did happen, it should be between the girls themselves. 

[Aspasia]

Wow. I stepped away for a few days, because life is busy like that, and I came back to...I don't even have words for it. Ladies, I'm not excusing my kid's behavior. I'm not blaming the other girl for my kid's treatment of her. My realizations that this girl isn't blameless in the situation just served to soften my view of my own kid, which frankly, kind of needed softening in the beginning of this. I was totally, 100% panicking about my kid's behavior (hence the inaccurate title of the thread that Farrar pointed out). I think I just kind of overreacted to the information my neighbor gave me. But as I thought about it longer, I realized that my dd isn't just a mean little bully. She's a kid who has had a lot of difficulties in her interactions with one of her friends. In the beginning, she was frustrated a lot with this little girl, and I knew that. I talked with her a lot and tried to give her ways of dealing with it. But at some point, she learned from the other kids some inappropriate ways of dealing with it, and now we're addressing that. But again, I'm not excusing her. She did what did and said what she said. I'm just trying to be fair to my kid, too.

I honestly don't think the other child's 'sensitivity' matters at all. What if she weren't a sensitive kid? What if you heard or saw your child say those things when they happened? How would you respond? Would it be ok with you? If it isn't how you want your child to treat anyone, then how does her 'sensitivity' come into it?

 

Put that aside and deal with your own kid. If it wasn't in line with how you think your child should act, then that is the issue. If my kid knows I don't allow him to play a certain type of video game, then he can't play it even if the other parent says it is allowed in their house. My kids know that and speak up. My rules and expectations don't end at the front door. The same with my expectations of his character. I expect my child to treat everyone with respect and kindness at all times, not just people who are 'typical' in their responses.

 

I AM dealing with my own kid. I haven't one time made any allowances for her behavior, especially not to her face. Everything I'm saying here, about the difficulty and dramatic/emotional tendencies of this neighbor girl...I haven't mentioned any of that to dd. With her, it has been all about how we treat people, especially when others aren't treating them well, and it has certainly been all about the really bad choices she has made.

 

But the ways that your DD was mean to this girl had nothing to do with the girl's sensitivity. As you pointed out, she was trying to hurt her feelings. I get that the kid may have been a squeaky wheel (we have one here too), but if you know she is at the bottom of the food chain, she knows it too, and it likely colors her perception of the situation. Fairly.

Based on the bolded, in my house there would be zero contact, supervised or not, with your DD's bullying friend. I am confused as to why you have allowed the friendship to continue at all when you say, "this friend is mean to my little kids and is always mean to other neighbor kids when they're here." Huh!?! That is HUGE! I tell my kids all the time, you are who you hang with. Well now this has become your DD's view of friendship and relationship and it will take a while to undo. Even longer to make sure your DD's "two faces" become one. We are influenced by our peers, some kids more than others, and this has been your DD's model...for how long? Wouldn't have to be long. She is SO young. The older my kids get, the more I realize how young they were when x, y, or z happened, and I shake my head at myself. Your expectations are unrealistic. You are asking her to mold herself to your (wise) words while you undermine those words by letting her hang with someone who behaves completely opposite in word and deed. I highly recommend reading Hold On to Your Kids.

All the talk in the world can't replace what her little mentor shows her day after day. I am absolutely not saying that your DD is not responsible for her own behavior, by the way. She should be held accountable for her actions. I am saying that she is too young to be allowed to hang with a girl who, frankly, seems to have extremely impaired friendship skills and come out of that unscathed. You are asking a very young child to have an impossibly strong backbone, sense of self, assertiveness skills... Should she be responsible for her own behavior? Of course. But as mom, you are responsible for protecting her from what you know to be true but she is too young to really understand: "Anyone who is mean WITH you, will eventually be mean TO you, so let's just change this pattern before it gets worse." Well it got worse, twice over now, at least. You have been letting her hang with this girl, against your better judgment. Like I said, there would be zero contact with this girl. My DD would be made responsible for her behavior, and I would make myself responsible for my own behavior as mother. Like it or not, you were effectively endorsing the behavior, even as you were condemning it.

ETA: I feel like I sound very harsh in this post, but I don't mean to be. This stuff is hard. I know that closely supervising play dates and neighborhood play, especially when you have younger kids who cannot participate, gets really really really old. I get that. I did my time in the camp chair in the driveway supervising the kids playing...and I was the only one in my neighborhood who did. I'm telling you, people had NO idea what their kids were really like outside their home. Didn't seem to care either. It takes effort and time, time, time... But I believe that who my kids are will be largely determined by the guidance they receive from us, and they sometimes need strict supervision for us to truly know the type of guidance they need most.

 

Believe me, I wring my hands daily about this mean friend and what I can do about it. I would LOVE to end this friendship. It's just not as simple as completely cutting off contact. She lives right across the street and all the neighborhood kids play in a pack together. Even if I keep dd home all the time so that I can supervise, what am I going to do? Tell this little girl that all the other kids can come here but she can't? That doesn't feel right to me. (I have told her many times that she can't play here if she's going to be mean, and I have sent her home on more than one occasion for mean behavior.) It's just complicated. Should I be like my neighbor and keep my kid inside all day, cut off from all the kids (not to mention nature and sunshine), forever?

 

If that were my child, not only would all play dates be under my supervision, but my DD wouldn't be allowed to play in the front yard.   Because of your DD, the neighbor child hasn't been able to play in her front yard for quite awhile.  You have a date for some of the bullying, your DD's birthday.  Whatever time span it has been since then, would be how long DD would be banned from the front yard.  Then I'd call the neighbor mom and tell her that her DD can play in her front yard without fear.  

 

Wow. I don't accept this. Because of my dd, this child hasn't been able to play in her front yard??? It's HER front yard. HER parents decided to keep her inside. You make it sound like my daughter is just lurking outside waiting for this girl to come into sight so she can pounce on her and make her cry. It isn't like that at all. My daughter isn't a predator. She's a little girl trying to navigate tricky social situations. She's learning to balance her desire to be liked with the need to be kind. She still has a lot to learn, yes, but she isn't a predator. If this little girl were ever outside (and even before these incidents, the only time she came out was when my dd went over and knocked on the door and invited her to play), my dd would invite her to play. She doesn't set out to be mean to her. She thinks she's her friend. But when the difficulties arise, my dd is apparently not handling them well. 

 

Also, you would have to know these neighbors to know how very little my daughter has to do with their daughter not being outside. These people were out of town for a month this summer, and it took two weeks for anyone to notice, because they usually come home, pull in the garage, close the garage, and you don't see or hear anything from them. And it's not for lack of trying. Dh and I are very friendly, and so are the rest of the neighbors. This is a very social neighborhood. But these people are never outside, their kids are almost never outside (except, like I said, when dd goes and invites this girl to play--and nobody else in the neighborhood does--just dd), even on the nicest days and even when the entire neighborhood is outside. It took us several weeks to notice that they were intentionally keeping this little girl inside. That's when I finally went next door to inquire. It's not like she was always outside running around and then my nasty daughter made her a prisoner in her own home. 

 

Look, I think I set myself up for overreactions from you guys when I overreacted and called my dd a bully. I can own that. I was just really, really surprised by what I learned. I wasn't sure how to handle it, so I came here for advice. I probably should have let it simmer before I started this thread.

 

Since that first day, dd has been restricted to playing only under my supervision. I've also had some chats with all the little girls about friendship and feelings and secrets and whatnot. I've ordered books and even come up with some fun little games/activities to play with them to create a more positive friendship culture around here. Dh and I are going to invite the neighbors over for dinner, just to sort of ease the tension.

 

I appreciate most of the insight and advice on this thread. The rest of it...well, I should know by now to expect that stuff. Every time someone makes themselves vulnerable around here by being super duper honest, there are posters who assume the very worst about them. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the people who come here and ask for advice are engaged parents trying to do the best they can. Perhaps we could try to give them (and their kids) the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that they're on the road to court intervention (!!!).

[shawthorne44]

I apologize if I overreacted.  I was bullied as a kid.  I overheard DH telling our daughter that one thing Mommy does NOT tolerate is being mean.  It is true.  If I were to hear that someone murdered someone else, I'd want to know the details.  But if I saw someone being mean?   Intolerable!  In fact, I once attempted to break up with DH because I had perceived him to have been mean in an anecdote he told me.   If I was certain that DD had behaved in a mean manner, I'd come down on her like a ton of bricks.  

[Aspasia]

I apologize if I overreacted.  I was bullied as a kid.  I overheard DH telling our daughter that one thing Mommy does NOT tolerate is being mean.  It is true.  If I were to hear that someone murdered someone else, I'd want to know the details.  But if I saw someone being mean?   Intolerable!  In fact, I once attempted to break up with DH because I had perceived him to have been mean in an anecdote he told me.   If I was certain that DD had behaved in a mean manner, I'd come down on her like a ton of bricks.  

 

I'm the same way. I wasn't bullied, but there were a couple times where I was mean, and my mom must have handled it really well, because I came away as a person who doesn't tolerate meanness at all. That's probably why I sort of overreacted to the news that my kid was being mean...calling her a bully, when that may be a tad dramatic.  I was just very upset.

[Farrar]

This thread reminds me what a bomb the word "bully" is. How it's paradoxically both overused and yet kids who are bullied are undersupported. And how our reactions tend to stem from our own experiences and emotions.

[Ravin]

I think this is great place to vent one's overreactions to stuff in real life. If someone's going to express the thought "Ack! My kid is a bully!" this is far and away a better place to do so than, say, in a conversation with the child. 

 

I also think we should all be on the lookout that we don't overreact to stuff that's posted here. I've seen more than once where someone here says something negative and people react as though having that thought and expressing it here to other adults not involved in the situation means they are going to express it to their kid/spouse/facebook/CNN. We all need to remember to  :chillpill: now and again, especially when something triggers a sensitive point personally.

 

Bucolic, it sounds to me that in the aftermath, you're handling your DD's behavior appropriately. (And ours, for that matter.  :lol: ).

[PrairieSong]

I think you had a lot of courage to go to the next door neighbor and ask what was wrong, and then spend so much time talking with her about the problem, listening to her side. It sounds like you are handling it well with your own dd.

 

I wondered if anyone has talked to the parents of the girl across the street the way your neighbor talked to you. Do they even know what their daughter is doing? I have no idea what kind of relationship you have with them, or what kind of parents they are...if they would listen and want to help their dd overcome this, the way you are working with your own dd.

 

I realize this would be a hard discussion to have, and you don't just want to march over there and say, "Your kid is a mean bully." But maybe somehow it could be brought to their attention. When you have sent the girl home for bad behavior before, did you ever talk to the parents? If my child were acting that way, I would definitely want to know!

 

{{{Hugs}}} to you. I know this is a tough situation, and was a shock to you. You'll get through this!

[kiwik]

An especially vicious child - not that the OP's kid is, I don't think - could even deliberately set it up that way, as in "I'm sorry I told everybody you were such a baby because you still suck your thumb and play with baby dolls, like a baby. It was mean, and I should not have told everybody that you were a baby", so yeah, now everybody who didn't hear that she's a baby has heard it. Gee, thanks, ye guidance counselors of the world!

Besides when you are the victim you want it clearly stated that the other person was in the wrong and that you were blameless. Otherwise you are left feeling you were at fault and that is ok for people to be mean to you.

 

This does not mean however that everyone who is mean to you is bullying you. We all say mean and thoughtless things sometimes. As we get older we are more careful and we learn to patch things up ourselves.

 

We had a kid in our neighbourhood group who was prone to sulking and going home when he didn't get is own way. We used to just invite him again next time. It was annoying but just how he was.

[Aspasia]

I think you had a lot of courage to go to the next door neighbor and ask what was wrong, and then spend so much time talking with her about the problem, listening to her side. It sounds like you are handling it well with your own dd.

 

I wondered if anyone has talked to the parents of the girl across the street the way your neighbor talked to you. Do they even know what their daughter is doing? I have no idea what kind of relationship you have with them, or what kind of parents they are...if they would listen and want to help their dd overcome this, the way you are working with your own dd.

 

I realize this would be a hard discussion to have, and you don't just want to march over there and say, "Your kid is a mean bully." But maybe somehow it could be brought to their attention. When you have sent the girl home for bad behavior before, did you ever talk to the parents? If my child were acting that way, I would definitely want to know!

 

{{{Hugs}}} to you. I know this is a tough situation, and was a shock to you. You'll get through this!

 

Her parents are great, and they are very aware of her behavior issues. Her mom is very firm and consistent and understands why I send her home on occasion. And she often brings her dd back to apologize. She's just a really tough, aggressive kid (I think she picks up a lot of her stuff at daycare). But yeah, her mom and I get along well and there is fairly open discussion about her behavior. Which is another reason why I'm not ready to just totally cut off contact.