Cakes Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 I am eager to HS and my husband is resistant. I have spent months reading this forum and wonder if anyone has any resources to share that offer unbiased information on homeschool kids vs traditional brick and mortar school kids, particularly regarding college, performance/acceptance. This is his main area of concern. Thank you in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue daisy Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 I'm following because I'm basically in the same boat. I'm ready, he's not, and we're happy enough with their school situation that there's no rush to pull them out But I'd love to show him articles/resources that demonstrate the benefits of homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidlit Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Might I suggest just sending him over to the high school/college board here? I always find it inspiring! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 It is not unbiased but the college forum is a great resource. My college freshman is attending on full scholarship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Here are the lists of this year's college acceptances. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/504380-class-of-2014-lists-only-acceptances-by-school-and-board-names/page-2 ETA scroll down to the most recent post for the up-to-date list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 I d not believe there are comprehensive unbiased studies comparing the academic success of homeschooled and b&m schooled students. But there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that homeschooled students can be highly successful and be admitted to uniersities and colleges of any caliber. You will find plenty such evidence on the high school forum, especially on the College board. I do not think statistics and averages are relevant for the success of any individual student. What your DH might want to see is that a homeschooled student can be very successful. Send him over to the highschool board. He may just want to look at the list of this year's college acceptances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 What would the measurements be - in other words - what does your dh want to see? How many HS students (and how many years they homeschooled, where they homeschooled, how they homeschooled, etc.): - "graduated" high school - went on to university or college - are employed (in their field of study) - participate in community volunteering - are NCAA athletes - vote - commit suicide - go to jail - are literate - are married - have children - practice a religion - etc. compared to youth who are not homeschooled. There are so many variables involved both in the "homeschool" definition as well as "outcomes." The Canadian HSLDA did a nice study on homeschooled youth and where they are as adults. I'm not sure if you have to be a member to access the report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelAR05 Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Here are the lists of this year's college acceptances. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/504380-class-of-2014-lists-only-acceptances-by-school-and-board-names/page-2 ETA scroll down to the most recent post for the up-to-date list. The list is impressive!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Here are the lists of this year's college acceptances. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/504380-class-of-2014-lists-only-acceptances-by-school-and-board-names/page-2 ETA scroll down to the most recent post for the up-to-date list. And many of us don't even post on the high school/college board. I don't because I had to put on blinders to keep control of my curricula ADD. I have to really stick to what I'm doing in order to focus, lol. My eldest started college this year too and isn't on that list. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Also there is such an enormous variation in schools. If your local schools are horrendous, homeschooling may be an obviously appealing proposition, but if your local schools are wonderful, the idea of homeschooling may seem like "if it ain't broke." Homeschoolers are probably the only ones who advocate for less tracking and data, so the reports tend to be self selected best cases, not anything claiming to be representative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Good luck with that, LOL! There are sources out there, but not unbiased. Lots of research out there that is skewed (for one reason or another) toward homeschooling, but the government doesn't even keep accurate and complete records of homeschoolers, which makes it hard to track them and compare their success. My gut feeling tells me if all homeschoolers were tracked and tested, the distribution of achievement, test scores, and grades would probably mirror public schools in a middle-of-road school. Your best bet is to visit the college forum here to see what is possible with diligent homeschooling. Will everyone achieve to those levels? No. But those are reasonable possibilities. You could cut a deal with your husband to try it for a year or two and return to B+M school if it doesn't work out. That's the best way to see if it would work for your kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cakes Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 As for what 'measurements' would satisfy my husband, he is just concerned about DD getting into college. She is on a pre-professional dance track that will hopefully lead her to a professional company...but anything can happen between now and then, loss of passion, serious injury, who knows. The goal would be to HS her to accommodate her dance schedule AND maintain her health with an appropriate amount of sleep, which is hard to do in PS, excessive homework and limited after school hours. I did some research on my own and found a few articles and several websites form big colleges (Yale, MIT, Princeton ..I think) stating that they welcome HS students provided they meet requirements and have the testing to back up their education..confirming what I had already told hubby about the testing to confirm progress. I also emailed both our local University of California college and state college to request insight on their acceptance of HS students. Here is a reply form the University: "Dear Cakes: We have applicants from all types of educational environments: independent schools, home schools, faith based or public schools. Home schooled students tend to submit test scores in AP exams or community college work to show that they can far exceed the A-G requirements. Please see our admissions website below to see the admissions review and to learn more about our spectacular applicants." I appreciate all of the high school successes here, but honestly he will view that as too biased. Thanks for responding though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dramorellis Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 As for what 'measurements' would satisfy my husband, he is just concerned about DD getting into college. She is on a pre-professional dance track that will hopefully lead her to a professional company...but anything can happen between now and then, loss of passion, serious injury, who knows. The goal would be to HS her to accommodate her dance schedule AND maintain her health with an appropriate amount of sleep, which is hard to do in PS, excessive homework and limited after school hours. I did some research on my own and found a few articles and several websites form big colleges (Yale, MIT, Princeton ..I think) stating that they welcome HS students provided they meet requirements and have the testing to back up their education..confirming what I had already told hubby about the testing to confirm progress. I also emailed both our local University of California college and state college to request insight on their acceptance of HS students. Here is a reply form the University: "Dear Cakes: We have applicants from all types of educational environments: independent schools, home schools, faith based or public schools. Home schooled students tend to submit test scores in AP exams or community college work to show that they can far exceed the A-G requirements. Please see our admissions website below to see the admissions review and to learn more about our spectacular applicants." I appreciate all of the high school successes here, but honestly he will view that as too biased. Thanks for responding though! Then what, short of an acceptance letter, would he accept? It seems as if he is set against it and is setting up road blocks with no reasonable expectation that you can get over them. Attending public or private school is no guarantee of college admittance or success so why is he willing to take that risk but not this one that has better odds for emotional and developmental success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 As for what 'measurements' would satisfy my husband, he is just concerned about DD getting into college...... I also emailed both our local University of California college and state college to request insight on their acceptance of HS students. I appreciate all of the high school successes here, but honestly he will view that as too biased. Thanks for responding though![/size][/font][/color] What you posted can be found on basically any college website. If there is a list of colleges which do not accept homeschoolers, the list is going to be short. Homeschoolers are accepted at all of the top schools in the country. Many? No. But, schools like MIT have a 95% rejection rate and there aren't "many" from anywhere. If your dh has specific concerns outside of whether or not college accept homeschoolers, those are probably equally easily addressed. That said, homeschooling is not for everyone. And all homeschools are absolutely not equal (just like all schools, public or private, are not equal.) The outcomes we have in our homeschool are uniquely ours. Same with every other homeschool out there. Your dd will get out of it whatever is put into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I appreciate all of the high school successes here, but honestly he will view that as too biased. Thanks for responding though! How is a list of "these boardies' homeschooled children have been admitted to these colleges this year" biased? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkateLeft Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Before I started homeschooling, I read stuff like Charles Sykes' "Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why American Children Feel Good About Themselves, but Can't Read, Write or Add," which isn't about homeschooling, but the need for education reform. I was sold on alternative education before I was ever sold on homeschooling. The thing that finally convinced us to try homeschooling was attending some local homeschool park days (in northern CA, where we lived) and actually meeting homeschooled high schoolers and their families. These teens were successful, considerate and comfortable in their own skins. They lacked the self-consciousness and peer-centered mentality that I recalled from my own high school years. Their parents had older kids who had gone on to Stanford, Caltech, and the UCs. It was pretty eye-opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 How is a list of "these boardies' homeschooled children have been admitted to these colleges this year" biased? Guess all of us made up the entire application process for entertainment purposes. (Gee, can I get rid of the gray hair caused by fictional stress??) ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 How is a list of "these boardies' homeschooled children have been admitted to these colleges this year" biased? I also don't see how this could be viewed as biased; it seems to me to be a good answer to your husband's concerns about whether homeschoolers can get into college: "look, here is a list of college acceptances for homeschooled students with parents on the WTM board." Is it representative of all homeschools? Probably not. But it is a fair representation of what homeschooling can achieve when parent and student put thought and effort into the endeavor. Homeschooling neither guarantees nor prevents academic success and college admission--anymore than school enrollment guarantees or prevents those outcomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cakes Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 How is a list of "these boardies' homeschooled children have been admitted to these colleges this year" biased? Because it is unlikely that people are going to post on a HS forum how their kid has suffered with HSing. I have read enough to know that many parents come here to get help with HSing, but HE will veiw it as biased. I was not implying that the list of successful students here is not valid....I am looking for information form the outside of the HS community. He is not dead set against HSing, just hesitant. I appreciate all of the feedback and I will show him the college admittances form this site. Sorry, I did not mean to discount all of you and your kiddos hard work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Because it is unlikely that people are not going to post on a HS forum how their kid has suffered with HSing. ! And how is this any different from the failures of the ps system. Perhaps links like this one would shed some light on the issue from the larger perspective? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/25/stateline-remedial-education/2586013/ Up to 60% of freshman at 2 yr colleges have to take remedial courses and up to 20% at 4 yr institutions. Guess where the bulk of entering freshman have been educated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I did some research on my own and found a few articles and several websites form big colleges (Yale, MIT, Princeton ..I think) stating that they welcome HS students provided they meet requirements and have the testing to back up their education..confirming what I had already told hubby about the testing to confirm progress. "........ Home schooled students tend to submit test scores in AP exams or community college work to show that they can far exceed the A-G requirements. Please see our admissions website below to see the admissions review and to learn more about our spectacular applicants." I think at this point it is not so much testing to confirm progress as to how to meet those A-G requirements so that your husband is not worried that applying to state schools as a freshman would be difficult. For example the geometry requirement for A-G requirements is new starting for all new applicants. "Effective for students applying to UC in November 2014 for freshman admission in fall 2015, one full year of Geometry must be completed to satisfy the mathematics ("c") subject area requirement. In other words, even if students complete three year-long math courses, they will not have fulfilled the mathematics subject requirement for UC admissions unless they have taken, and passed with a letter grade of C or better, one full year of Geometry " (link) recent threads on A-G http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/519732-cal-state-long-beach-update-a-g/ http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/507407-a-g-requirements/ Is your hubby looking only at the big colleges? What is his goal for your child's education? How does he view your assigned public high school? For example hubby and I are looking at the possibility of going the AA route for high school. ETA: I haven't read how the numbers are computed. High school graduation rate is 82% and chance at college is 45.8%. This report was released yesterday. Link is to California http://www.leadersandlaggards.org/report-card/California Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 In California it is also possible to enroll your child in a virtual charter school from which they can graduate with a public school diploma. I am not personally a fan of schools that use a pre-set curriculum like K12, but there are other schools that allow the family more flexibility in choosing resources. I have heard mixed reviews of these at the high school level (mostly that a lot of the flexibility available in the early grades is lost in the need to satisfy all state requirements) but there are certainly people whose students are successful through such schools. Just one more option to consider, and might make your husband more comfortable. The available schools vary by county. One example I know of is Sky Mountain charter school which operates in the Los Angeles area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahW Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I do not think statistics and averages are relevant for the success of any individual student. True. The result of homeschooling is highly dependent upon what is put into it. OP - The people around here may be highly committed to it, so that may skew the results shown on this board in a particular way, but it does show one possible set of outcomes. I once saw a book in the library about homeschooling high school. I thought it was mostly useless, as their curriculum suggestion consisted of nothing more than "just buy the next level of A Beka." But, all their kids got average ACT scores and went on to average colleges. If that is what you're aiming for, then their advice is a good idiot-proof way to achieve that. But really, success comes down to time and commitment. And a great deal of patience! Your DH may actually be concerned more about that than what colleges will think of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Perhaps you could direct your husband to college websites where they spell out the requirements for homeschoolers. He will find out that the requirements are not all that different from the requirements for traditionally-schooled students. As for what 'measurements' would satisfy my husband, he is just concerned about DD getting into college. She is on a pre-professional dance track that will hopefully lead her to a professional company...but anything can happen between now and then, loss of passion, serious injury, who knows. The goal would be to HS her to accommodate her dance schedule AND maintain her health with an appropriate amount of sleep, which is hard to do in PS, excessive homework and limited after school hours. I did some research on my own and found a few articles and several websites form big colleges (Yale, MIT, Princeton ..I think) stating that they welcome HS students provided they meet requirements and have the testing to back up their education..confirming what I had already told hubby about the testing to confirm progress. I also emailed both our local University of California college and state college to request insight on their acceptance of HS students. Here is a reply form the University: "Dear Cakes: We have applicants from all types of educational environments: independent schools, home schools, faith based or public schools. Home schooled students tend to submit test scores in AP exams or community college work to show that they can far exceed the A-G requirements. Please see our admissions website below to see the admissions review and to learn more about our spectacular applicants." I appreciate all of the high school successes here, but honestly he will view that as too biased. Thanks for responding though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Oh, Lordy, you need to take another look. There are plenty of those on here, also. ETA: What tipped my husband to giving it a try was seeing some perfectly bright and normal kids homeschooling, and seeing that I had a solid plan to prep DD for college. So....you need to lay out a plan, and then explain to your DH how exactly you plan to prep DD for college/meet college entrance requirements. Also, perhaps just trying it for a year, with the agreement that you re-visit your decision in a year, can help DH come onboard with homeschooling. Because it is unlikely that people are not going to post on a HS forum how their kid has suffered with HSing. I have read enough to know that many parents come here to get help with HSing, but HE will veiw it as biased. I was not implying that the list of successful students here is not valid....I am looking for information form the outside of the HS community. He is not dead set against HSing, just hesitant. I appreciate all of the feedback and I will show him the college admittances form this site. Sorry, I did not mean to discount all of you and your kiddos hard work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Well, does he want to know what's average, or what's possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Well, does he want to know what's average, or what's possible? This. If you base your schooling decision off of average results, you would run far away from the public schools--average results there are not encouraging. But average doesn't mean there aren't many, many successful, high achieving graduates--it just means not every student at every school achieves those results. A student with the will to achieve and dedicated parental support can do well in public school--or in homeschool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Because it is unlikely that people are not going to post on a HS forum how their kid has suffered with HSing. There seem to be a lot of States which require annual testing of HS students. I don't know whether any of these average test results are publicly known, but it would be worth looking into and then comparing to ps and private school averages. That would be information that is much less biased. But then your dh has to ask himself whether the test results are very useful in predicting which students actually graduate from college. ;) Aren't we all on a bit of a gamble with raising children anyway. None of us know how things are going to turn out. One thing that is pretty much standard knowledge for education - even ps teachers agree - is that parental involvement plays a vital role in the success of a student. What could be more involved than educating one's own child by the people who love and care for the outcomes the most? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 He needs to read more than statistics. He needs to read the books that talk about why learning at home is so much more beneficial than learning in a classroom setting. :-) Dr. Raymond Moore, John Holt, Mary Pride, and others have all written eloquently about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 There seem to be a lot of States which require annual testing of HS students. I don't know whether any of these average test results are publicly known, but it would be worth looking into and then comparing to ps and private school averages. That would be information that is much less biased. But then your dh has to ask himself whether the test results are very useful in predicting which students actually graduate from college. ;) Aren't we all on a bit of a gamble with raising children anyway. None of us know how things are going to turn out. One thing that is pretty much standard knowledge for education - even ps teachers agree - is that parental involvement plays a vital role in the success of a student. What could be more involved than educating one's own child by the people who love and care for the outcomes the most? Arkansas is a state that requires testing of all homeschoolers, they have years worth of data and, on average, homeschool students score slightly above average. But, Arkansas schools are near the bottom of the nation. To balance that, however, there are large numbers of Arkansas homeschoolers who homeschool primarily for non academic reasons. Here are 15 years worth of Arkansas home school scores, scores are reported as well as other statistics: http://www.arkansased.org/divisions/learning-services/home-schools/home-school-reports If you compare NAEP scores, Arkansas and California score identically low in 8th grade reading: http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2013/pdf/2014464AR8.pdf http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2013/pdf/2014464CA8.pdf And Arkansas scored slightly higher than California in math for 2013 8th grade scores, but the difference is most likely statistically insignificant: http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2013/pdf/2014465AR8.pdf http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2013/pdf/2014465CA8.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I don't think that you can find any research done by unbiased sources, because unbiased sources have no interest in researching the success rates for homeschooling. If your husband wants to know about success rates, college acceptance rates, ACT/SAT scores, or other information, some of that is available, but it may take some effort to find it all from its original sources as opposed to compiled by a potentially biased source. Some colleges publish the percentage of homeschoolers accepted, along with percentage of public and percentage of private school students. ACT and SAT both use a homeschool code, so it is easy to track that on average homeschoolers who take the ACT and SAT do better than public school or private school students. Obviously, homeschool failures don't take the ACT or SAT, but neither do public or private school failures in most states. I think he is going to have to change his focus from "Can homeschooling fail?" the answer is yes, to "Can homeschooling succeed?" the answer is also yes. If you look for evidence that homeschooling can fail, you can find it. However, that doesn't mean it must. If you look for evidence it can succeed, the college board here is a good place to look. There is also a yahoo group called hs2coll homeschool to college. They have an even longer and more impressive list of college acceptances each spring than the one here. The choice to homeschool does not guarantee an ivy league acceptance. It does not guarantee a college acceptance at all. However, if done well, with a student that has the ability, there is no upper limit on what can be achieved by homeschooling. The one thing your husband can be assured of is that almost every college in the country accepts homeschoolers and many actively recruit them. If he doubts it, continue to contact colleges that would be among the options your dd would consider. I challenge you to find one that will say they won't accept a homeschooled student that meets their admissions requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cakes Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 Thank you all for supplying the assortment of links, I will dig thru them all. His primary concern was " what about college? I would like to know if HS kids have a harder time getting college acceptance." That is the info that I was searching for. As for my email to the colleges, it is one thing to read admissions policies online. It is more impactful to get a direct response to our particular question (even though it IS redundant) that says: "Cakes, Thank you for your interest in San Diego State University. As long as your student fulfills all of the requirements for Freshmen students there will be no drawbacks to her being home-schooled. " I know that and you all may know that, but my husband does not and for him to read that is reassuring...silly as it may seem. His goals for her education are not the issue. She is a dancer and is on a pre-professional track. We have come to a point where there are not enough hours in the day and I am against my 12 yr old staying up until 11 at night doing homework and then waking up at 6 am to do it all again. So the question becomes 'if we homeschool her and she suffers an injury or loses her love of dance then what? Will she have a shot at getting into a good college?' I am well versed in the a-g requirements and have already mapped out the next 5 years, for me it is a no brainer. I was just looking for some support in the way of facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 If you haven't connected with Jenny in Fl, you should pm her. Her ds is a young college freshman (16) who I believe is majoring in dance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjand6more Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I really don't know of any sources that your husband may not consider *biased*. I will tell you that colleges that make homeschoolers jump through special hoops are few and far between. Our kids are treated just like ANY incoming freshman. My son was offered scholarships and recruited BECAUSE he was homeschooled. At least that is what the admission offices said... If a school gives you a difficult time, I would walk away with my kid and my money. I assure you there are dozens of schools that are glad to offer admissions for every 1 that does not. My son met all the requirements for admission. He was no longer homeschooled. Just a college freshman like everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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