If my child wishes to get into a selective college, what courses should she be taking in 8th grade?

[songsparrow]

I have seen people mention in various posts here and there that if a child wants to get into a selective college, they should be taking x, y and z in a particular grade.  How do you know this / where do you learn this?  For example, I just recently learned that it is now fairly standard for kids to take Geometry in 8th grade.

 

Can anyone tell me or point me to resources that explain what the progression should be for 8th through 12th grades, in order to be in a solid place for college admission?

 

I still have time to make adjustments and tweaks to our schedule before our school year begins.  Right now, our 8th grade schedule plan is:

* LA:  MCT Level 4

* Math:  Algebra 1 (2nd half) and Geometry

* Science: Ornithology

* American History

* French

* Art

 

Thanks!

[regentrude]

First of all: nobody will want to know what they did in 8th grade, so the only reason to be concerned about 8th grade courses is that one wants to make sure the students are prepared for challenging coursework in high school.

I think a student interested in a selective school should definitely have algebra 1 in 8th grade, but I would disagree that geometry in 8th grade is "fairly standard". It is not. Algebra 1 for 7th graders is still an exception rather than "standard".

 

You student's science sequence will be driven by her math preparation. Having had solid algebra in 8th means that a high school science sequence that begins with algebra based physics would be possible. What you do for science in 8th is irrelevant.

 

There is no cookie cutter approach to what a student "should" be taking in each grade for admission to a selective school. I suggest that you work backwards from the admissions requirements. selective schools require four years each of English, social sciences, science, math, and strongly recommend 4 years of foreign language (and if a school like this "recommends", it means you better do it to be competetive).

So, work backwards and see what courses in these areas would be a good fit for your child. Some colleges mandate the kind of sciences students must take; it is fairly common to need bio, phys and chem and have at least one advanced course in one of the subjects. Math through calculus would be standard for those students.

 

ETA: For a homeschooled student, I would strongly recommend some outside validation of challenging coursework, either in form of AP exams or dual enrollment at a college. She will be competing with students from schools that have batteries of AP scores and needs some way to substantiate her grades.

 

ETA: And keep in mind that even the most rigorous coursework will not guarantee admission to a highly selective school. Admissions rates are at an all time low, and students with upper level coursework at four year universities during their high school years get rejected. So, offering a rigorous education is a great goal, but I would not focus too narrowly on the elusive possibility of admission to a highly selective school.

 

 

[kiana]

What regentrude said. Also adding in, that the most important thing in 8th grade is not WHAT you study, but that your student is prepared to make good grades in challenging high school courses. For this, they really need strong English and Math skills (it looks like you're doing fine there) and a base amount of knowledge about the world, so that when they go to study science or history they aren't learning everything from scratch.

[MarkT]

I agree with the other posters - I would recommend you complete an Honors level/Challenging Algebra 1 for this year instead of rushing into Geometry. Look into AoPS Algebra there may be others. The OP did say "selective college"  - huge difference in getting into "selective" versus "very selective" or whatever they call it these days.

[JanetC]

Study skills -- cover outlining, SQ3R, identifying key terms, mind maps, etc.  Give midterms and finals in one or two classes to get used to retaining information over time and reviewing.  Participate in something like history fair or science fair where the student needs to stay organized on a difficult project over an extended period of time. Learn how to take notes during a video or documentary.

 

All of these can be part of high school as well, and can be added to any subject you are already studying.  At my house, we add these to whatever we're doing for history/social studies. 

 

[Crimson Wife]

Elizabeth Wissner-Gross has some recommended schedules in her "What High Schools Won't Tell You" book but keep in mind that they are geared towards prepping for specific contests.

 

7th grade algebra 1 and 8th grade geometry for honors track students *WAS* the norm in my state until very recently but the switch to Common Core has led many districts to eliminate middle school algebra 1 entirely. Typical California deciding to swing the pendulum too far back. Algebra 1 in 7th isn't necessary but making everyone wait until 9th for a full algebra 1 class isn't a good idea either because those students will not get to calculus in 12th unless they double up on math.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Keeping in mind that selective (and very selective) schools are something of a lottery, simply because so many well qualified students apply for a limited number of spots...

 

Also keeping in mind that different people mean different things by selective... Some mean schools with single digit acceptance rates, like Harvard.  Others mean the most competitive state school, like University of Virginia or William and Mary.  Others might think of a service academy.

 

Spend some time looking at the admissions requirements of some of the schools that you are thinking of.  Look not only at minimum admissions requirements, but what they recommend to be more competitive and what they suggest for homeschoolers (I've found that latter by searching for [school name] admissions requirements homeschool).  Look at the graduation requirements or college prep course expectations for some of the top high schools in your area.  (That is your competition pool.)

 

Then start working backwards.  If your kid needs to be in calculus as a senior, what courses do they need to take to be at that point.  If the application cycle will focus on scores and grades that are in hand in fall of senior year, do you need to think about AP or SAT Subject Tests in junior year or earlier?  How will you meet the common 2-3 year foreign language requirement.

[EndOfOrdinary]

As mentioned above, I'd begin looking into classes or tests which can provide outside validation.  It does not matter what courses your daughter takes if there is no outside validation of the grades she is given.  The transcript has to look credible, and that normally means a lot of validation.  These courses can also provide letters of recommendation if she takes multiple courses from the same person or place.  Many schools want letters of rec from actual teachers, not extra curriculars.  When I was doing schooling runs for high school students who wanted selective schools (and as I have done with my son, now), the largest part was looking at which tests/outside courses could go where.  Much of this was scheduled around interests, but a lot of it was also to not overload a kid.  More than two or three big tests a year is mindmelting and can really hinder.  By knowing in advance, you can begin foundational and preperatory skills now, spacing out APUSH over a few years, or AP Human Geography, or whatever, so that the courses taken when the student is younger are not overwhelming.  It also needed to not overload the parents wallet.  Many courses are not cheap (about 600 dollars a year).  You add in testing costs and it starts to get pricey fast.  In our family, that means scheduling in advance and saving up.

[regentrude]

  By knowing in advance, you can begin foundational and preperatory skills now, spacing out APUSH over a few years, or AP Human Geography, or whatever, so that the courses taken when the student is younger are not overwhelming.  It also needed to not overload the parents wallet.  Many courses are not cheap (about 600 dollars a year).  You add in testing costs and it starts to get pricey fast.  In our family, that means scheduling in advance and saving up.

 

Just to clarify for the OP: you do not need to have your student take an AP class, and taking an AP class does not provide any more outside validation than simply taking the AP exam after self study or home taught course.

 

[Roadrunner]

Elizabeth Wissner-Gross has some recommended schedules in her "What High Schools Won't Tell You" book but keep in mind that they are geared towards prepping for specific contests.

 

7th grade algebra 1 and 8th grade geometry for honors track students *WAS* the norm in my state until very recently but the switch to Common Core has led many districts to eliminate middle school algebra 1 entirely. Typical California deciding to swing the pendulum too far back. Algebra 1 in 7th isn't necessary but making everyone wait until 9th for a full algebra 1 class isn't a good idea either because those students will not get to calculus in 12th unless they double up on math.

I thought Algebra 1 was now spread over CC math in grades 7 and 8 (mostly eight). Not trying to start the argument. We are in CA, so this is for my reference.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I don't think there is any consistency in CA at this point.  Our junior high offers regular Algebra 1 to 8th graders for sure, not sure about 7th graders.  It also offers a 2-year version of Algebra 1 that can be started in 8th grade and completed in 9th at the high school. 

[MarkT]

I thought Algebra 1 was now spread over CC math in grades 7 and 8 (mostly eight). Not trying to start the argument. We are in CA, so this is for my reference.

 

CC  defines an accelerated 7th grade including 8th Algebra topics which allows full HS Algebra I in 8th grade. Some typical Algebra I topics are now in 8th grade math.

 

[Of course, CC should have used the terms Middle School Math 1 (typical 7th) and Middle School Math 2 (typical 8th) to allow the reality of top math kids to complete HS Algebra I in physical 7th grade.]

[Crimson Wife]

I thought Algebra 1 was now spread over CC math in grades 7 and 8 (mostly eight). Not trying to start the argument. We are in CA, so this is for my reference.

 

Nope, some of the material that was previously in 8th/7th grade algebra 1 is now in CC 8th and the rest is in CC 9th.

 

CC 7th grade math is strictly pre-algebra: ratios & proportions, fractions, decimals, negative numbers, some geometry, and some probability & statistics. It's on pg. 54 of the link below.

 

CC 8th grade math has some of the easier algebra 1 topics like linear equations but it is not the full algebra 1 course from the previous CA math standards. It's on page 60 of the link below.

 

CC 9th grade math is either algebra 1 (pg. 62 of the link) or Integrated Math 1 (pg. 95 of the link). Quadratic equations are not until IM 2, so students may now be in 10th grade before they complete all the algebra 1 topics.

 

The link is here: http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/ccssmathstandardaug2013.pdf

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

 

Spend some time looking at the admissions requirements of some of the schools that you are thinking of.  Look not only at minimum admissions requirements, but what they recommend to be more competitive and what they suggest for homeschoolers (I've found that latter by searching for [school name] admissions requirements homeschool).  Look at the graduation requirements or college prep course expectations for some of the top high schools in your area.  (That is your competition pool.)

 

 

I wanted to add emphasis to the point Sebastian makes above.  I think that when looking at competitive schools, homeschoolers are often too dismissive of what the kids in the local b&m school are doing and just pursue their own path.  While going your own way can be a wonderful option I think it needs to be done with an awareness of what the competition is working on.  Sadly, the college admissions game is actually a competition of sorts.

 

Over the summer we visited and toured a highly selective state school.  Dd took advantage of the time with an admissions officer at the end of the tour and struck up a conversation about requirements for homeschoolers that may differ from what was discussed for regular high schoolers.  I ended up joining their conversation and learned that not every university has an admissions officer who is assigned to homeschoolers.  Many are city or region specialists who will evaluate your homeschooled applicant against the other applicants from your geographic area.  The result of which was if every kid from your area who receives an offer of admissions has AP Calculus, Honors English, and a given SAT score (etc.) your homeschooled applicant will be compared to those kids.  My take away was that if I want my child to be competitive for such a school I need to choose courses with a nod to both their interests and what other successful, college bound students in my area are studying.  You also need to dig a bit into requirements for some majors if your child has a particular interest.  Some majors require auditions, portfolios, specific test scores or additional testing.  I'd be sure to plan for any of that as needed.

[lmrich]

I know you did not ask about this, but now is the time to explore her outside interests as well. Selective schools desire a well-rounded (excellent academics) student who take on leadership roles.

[TechWife]

My input is a little bit different than that of the others. They have done a great job of detailing some of the academic preparedness for you to consider. 

 

To be successful in college, in the 8th grade, I recommend that you work on the following: 

 

-if you are a Christian, discipleship and encouraging solid friendships with other people her age that are equally committed to the faith. 

- time management

 

-organizational skills - keeping track of belongings, schedules, assignments, appointments, organizing living spaces, etc.

 

-communication skills - oral, written, body language, managing conflict, becoming comfortable conversing with those she disagrees with, etc., basic social skills such as how to perform an introduction properly, conversing with people she doesn't know or know well, give & take in conversation

 

-life skills - working on these can provide practical experience with many of the things I have listed. In order to help her high school and college years go smoother, she needs to know how to do laundry & become responsible for doing her own, make simple meals, understand basic nutrition, know how to mow the lawn, how to clean the house, begin to learn about managing her personal finances (this will continue through high school)

 

-teach her how to be a good hostess - paying attention to all guests, doing what is needed to make sure guests, no matter how frequently or infrequently they come over, are comfortable in your home, how to get people talking to each other, etc. 

 

-hygiene - have a good, solid routine down for skin care, dental care, hair care, etc.. This will help her in so many areas! 

 

- s3x education - make this subject part of your regular conversation so that talking about it becomes normal/routine in your household, if you haven't done so already. 

 

-teach her how to handle disappointment gracefully

 

I'm sure there is so much more. I really just wanted to take a minute to remind myself that there's more to college readiness than academics, I think. 

 

 

[ma23peas]

I can make some recommendations. I had a niece who excelled in public school, took every AP class had a ridiculous GPA and scored a 35 on the ACT...she was accepted at every University she applied to except the one she really wanted, Duke University. Her key drawback was she was sooo strong in academics, she had little else to offer to compete for coveted spots at certain universities. She went on to complete her undergrad at Boston University in 2 years and her Master's in two, so she didn't 'suffer' but if your heart is set on a specific school you need to stand out.

 

Speech & Debate (compete and place...great for so many skills)

Community Involvement (Beta Club, Volunteering etc.)

Athletic commitment (offers opportunities to show commitment/skill/leadership)

Start an event for local charities (get involved..be proactive in being a leader)

Musical commitments (the arts provide many wonderful opportunities)

Scouts (Eagle and others show commitment)

 

In other words, academics will get you considered, but it's the 'extra' that gets you noticed and ultimately a spot. My son had dual enrollment his last two years, did fairly well on GPA (unweighted 3.8) and average on ACT..mid 20s...but he was in competitve sports where he was elected Captain his senior year, he competed in Speech & Debate for four years, he could write well/speak well and that's what put him over the edge for his liberal arts college he's attending now...I would say focus on 60% academics and 40% extracurricular/leadership opportunities.

[Michelle_NC]

I agree with the others that no one really cares about 8th grade as far as college admissions goes.  It all starts in 9th grade.

 

My only word of advice about math is to gauge whether your child is math and science-oriented or not.  If they lean more towards liberal arts and struggle in math, then getting them on the fast track will most likely burn them out as they hit 11th and 12th grade. It's perfecly acceptable to do the Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry, Advanced Math track for state colleges.  My daughter took Algebra in 8th grade and then took it again in 9th (she was at a private school) because I wanted her to really understand the basics and she was a little iffy on some of the concepts at the end of 8th grade. Plus it was an easy A to help boost her GPA. She's done really well in Geometry and is confident about her math abilities.  If she hadn't retaken Algebra 1 in 9th, I think she would have done fine, but that extra year really cemented her understanding.  I also figured that she would just take the basic math when she got to college and so Algebra would be more valuable than getting to Calculus.

 

Some of her classmates were already to Pre-Calc in 10th and having meltdowns by the end of the year because they just didn't understand the concepts and it took lots of tutoring to get them through the class with a passing grade.  One of the negaitves I've noticed at traditional schools is they never seem to finish a math book!  The end of the year creeps up and they either ignore the last few chapters or zip through them really fast to say they did it. We switched to homeschooling for this year (11th) and I'm glad she's strong in math because she's doing Algebra 2 through the homeschool co-op that meets once a week.  After that, she's doing a math course at a community college that will transfer for credit and also count as that 4th advanced math since she took the slower track.

I'm not saying this is the right choice for everyone, but it worked for dd.

[lisabees]

To be competitive for a selective school, students need more than rigorous classes and high test scores.  Most students who apply to that kind of school have a similar academic profile.

 

Top tier schools want to see a passion that has been developed and actively pursued over the years.  They want to see students who understand their place in the world, not just their community.  They want to know how the student compares - nationally - to other applicants, whether that is in academics or competitions or awards or extra-curriculars.

 

I remember reading years ago - and I agree - that selective schools don't want a well-rounded student.  They want a well-rounded student body.

 

Academically, your child should take the most rigorous classes in which he/she can be successful - and back them up with plenty of high test scores.   

 

My experience is with selective LACs.  Our fairly selective State U (Penn State) just plugs applicants' grades/test scores into a computer for most majors.

 

 

[creekland]

Kids who have been accepted to selective schools (< 30% acceptance rate) around here have not only had top notch ACT/SAT scores, they've also been club and/or community leaders and involved in something (church and/or work things count).  They have decent people skills and are pleasant to talk with.  They are knowledgeable about world, national, and local events/concerns.  They have read books they can discuss intelligently.  They have seen deeper movies they can discuss intelligently.

 

In general, they are likely to make a Top 10 "Most Likely to Succeed" list from pretty much everyone who knows them (not just family).

 

Class-wise, they do often have Alg 1 finished by 8th grade (not necessarily Geometry, but some have it done).  They are also often doing other high school level work in 8th grade, but none of it counts on their transcript (except, sometimes, languages).  They merely go deeper in high school courses - VERY often, ok, pretty much ALWAYS, into college level work.  This can be AP level (test at the end is needed to confirm knowledge - class need not be labeled AP) or DE at a local college.

 

Entry level courses at most highly selective colleges (perhaps all, but I haven't seen "all") ARE more difficult than their counterparts at other colleges.  They go deeper in content.  A Bio 101 class at selective college A is not equal in content to normal college B.  At the selective college it will be expected that incoming students have already had an AP level class AND remember that foundation.  At the normal college Bio 101 is likely to repeat AP Bio in content.  I've seen this also with Calc classes.  English classes are going to expect a deeper level of reading comprehension and writing ability is already there.

 

DO NOT force any student toward a selective college if it's not "them."  It's not necessary for success in life and is more likely to drive them mad (or depressed) than be helpful.  Most kids who end up at selective colleges love learning and want to be there - they don't need to be forced to do these things.  It's natural for them.  When things get tougher, they naturally rise to the challenge and love it.

 

And beware that certain majors have their "Top 10 schools for this major" that may be entirely different than any selective college list.

[lisabees]

 

DO NOT force any student toward a selective college if it's not "them."  It's not necessary for success in life and is more likely to drive them mad (or depressed) than be helpful.  Most kids who end up at selective colleges love learning and want to be there - they don't need to be forced to do these things.  It's natural for them.  

 

 

 

 

This.  Your child will naturally lead YOU in this direction.  My oldest most certainly did.  And my 9th grader is too.  He has a very specific interest, so I am planning ahead, knowing full well that things may change.  He will let me know!

 

I also have a senior who struggles a bit in school.  We will be making our last college visit tomorrow.  I am THRILLED with his choice of schools; they are regional schools - mostly LACs.  There are just so many wonderful colleges out there!  

[creekland]

Only one of my three was even remotely interested in selective schools.  He's thriving there. 

 

The other two? 

 

Oldest has graduated and is enjoying working in his field - no difficulty at all getting a job using his major. 

 

Youngest has just started, but is already loving it.

 

People, as a whole, do so much better academically and mentally when they are in THEIR niche.  Our goal as parents and guidance counselors is to help them figure out THEIR niche - not necessarily the niche "we" dream of them having.  We help them find their dream.  For some, this doesn't even involved 4 year colleges at all.

 

But that's just general advice.  The OP (and anyone reading) may very well have a "driven" student whose niche is best in a selective college.  They will know as life continues.  Driven kids lead to selective colleges - they don't have to be pulled there.

[G5052]

Only one of my three was even remotely interested in selective schools.  He's thriving there. 

 

The other two? 

 

Oldest has graduated and is enjoying working in his field - no difficulty at all getting a job using his major. 

 

Youngest has just started, but is already loving it.

 

People, as a whole, do so much better academically and mentally when they are in THEIR niche.  Our goal as parents and guidance counselors is to help them figure out THEIR niche - not necessarily the niche "we" dream of them having.  We help them find their dream.  For some, this doesn't even involved 4 year colleges at all.

 

But that's just general advice.  The OP (and anyone reading) may very well have a "driven" student whose niche is best in a selective college.  They will know as life continues.  Driven kids lead to selective colleges - they don't have to be pulled there.

 

My oldest would shoo-in for a selective school.  No interest though.  None.  He doesn't know what to major in, and he wants to keep living at home, doing his volunteer work, and pursuing his martial arts interests including being an instructor for one dojo.  Our finances are very, very tight.  He's somewhat of a late bloomer although I have no concerns about him handling college.

 

So he's going to the community college next fall.  And that's fine too.  Ultimately I felt like it had to be his decision, and that's what he wants.  

 

A friend of mine noted that her son's best friend is a lot like my oldest.  They overruled him and pushed him to a distant college and a major he really wasn't into.  And he completely wasn't into it and barely passed the first year.  He came home in May and moved into an apartment with a friend.  He's working construction now and barely speaks to his parents.  She felt his parents really damaged the relationship with their son because they didn't take into account his wishes, and that he might have still completed college if they had let him ease into it by going locally as he really wanted.

 

Every family is different, but I just don't want to overrule where there are solid options.  And no regrets that I homeschooled rigorously.  That will serve my DC well for the rest of their lives.

[daijobu]

I know you did not ask about this, but now is the time to explore her outside interests as well. Selective schools desire a well-rounded (excellent academics) student who take on leadership roles.

 

You could go for well rounded or you could go for "pointy."  I don't know which is the better strategy.   :confused1:

[idnib]

You could go for well rounded or you could go for "pointy."  I don't know which is the better strategy.   :confused1:

 

Wow, that article was really depressing.