Religious question (NOT a debate!!)

[Mrs Mungo]

Wow. I am Christian, but I have walked away from church for many of the reasons GothicGyrl posted. I don't feel a need to "join" a group of people to be "saved". I want to love everyone, and not judge them for anything. That doesn't mean I'll Like everyone, LOL- but I can choose to accept people as they are. I would much rather be a spokesperson for Christianity by LIVING the Truth instead of preaching it at people. And I surely don't want to be a "member" of a group of people that just don't have beliefs that line up with mine- and who are unaccepting of people who disagree (you don't agree with the sermon x gave this morning? why? you must not understand what he was saying, you must need an elder to counsel you, surely there is some way we can brainwash you into seeing it OUR way, because OUR way is THE way). <sigh>.

Now I can't stand how other "Christians" judge me for not attending church (IMO church is the place where people give their tithes, and that money is used to build bigger buildings, pay for the current building, put new carpeting in the sanctuary, etc- but it is NOT used to HELP the needy, because the needy aren't members of that church).

Okay, so that is MNSHO, and I don't want to debate with anyone about it LOL, and I don't want/need anyone to tell me that I am wrong or misguided. :)

 

I probably connect with this post more than any other. I'm a Christian but "the church" drives me crazy as do some Christians. I'll never forget my daughter asking a girl in our homeschool group (not a church-based homeschool group) what she was going to be for Halloween and the girl telling her Halloween was the devil's birthday. Now, seriously, that's just silly.

 

As far as believe "the truth" of a man in a whale or 986 years old..well, I'm not a literalist. I don't think everything in The Bible is *literally* true. I'm not a young-earther. I don't think I have to *know* how the earth and/or life came about in order to believe in God or Christ.

 

As far as churches having lots of social activities, especially for kids-it's true and that's what draws and/or keeps a lot of people there. I think the key factor there is they own a big building. I mean, I can have all the desire to run a homeschool co-op or whatnot in the world but I have to have a building.

 

Most of our social network comes through the military community but I have friends (or had...before we moved...I don't have any friends here yet) through other outlets as well. Some of my friends I met by going to scrapbook crops. Some I met through our homeschool group. It's often hard for military because we *do* move. It kind of sucks to have to start over every few years. I think Scarlett's views on belonging to a tribe are excellent observations.

[PinkInTheBlue]

Ok, since so many have been so wonderfully honest in this conversation, I'll put mine out there too. :) I NEVER discuss this in my "real" life because it's something that has completely evolved between my husband and I and my family and friends would NOT understand.

 

My family joined the church when I was a teenager. We immediately became 'every time the door's open' family and served in so many ways. We were there multiple times a day and had a great time. Matter fact, I ended up marrying the preacher's son who was also a preacher. It's a full-fledged preaching family; dad, son, son, uncle, etc. After many years of seeing so many massive hypocrisies in that family (particularly the dad and my now-ex) and the many visiting preachers and evangelists, I knew enough to be done with that. That's not the only reason I'm divorced, but it helps. The details aren't important but let me say it's enough.

 

So, from that, I was definitely finished with "church".

 

That really assisted me to step back anyway and realize how offensive I found it that my relationship and knowledge of God had to come to me from a man who preached or man (occasionally woman) who taught Sunday School. I can't even begin to tell you how many friends and family or associates I have who can't tell me what they believe without the defense of "that's what my pastor said". I believe God wants me to know him straight through him. It's more than possible; it's necessary.

 

I think the realization that SO many (if not nearly all) Christians in church are sheep. They don't think for themselves. They don't decide their beliefs for themselves. They believe what a preacher tells them and what snippets they read from the Bible (another can of worms). I started looking at the things I had been TOLD to believe and stepping back to say "What do I think about this?". I compared it to what I knew about the nature of God and occasional reading of authors of varying opinions and just common sense. Very often I came out with the same belief but at least it was MINE and not what I had been told to believe. Many things I came out with different beliefs than what I had previously had. And that's what is separating me from many family members and previous friends. The lack of going to church is enough to make most of them question my Christianity. Imagine how they'd feel if the know how I felt about homosexuality now? LOL

 

Forgive my long post with many, probable errors. I've never "said" this outside of my marriage so putting it "out there" is a bit vulnerable. I'm trying to type quickly before I change my mind! LOL

[j.griff]

I met an atheist once who called people who follow the crowd, or follow someone's teachings without thinking for themselves "sheeple". :)

[Diana in OR]

Except it's also hard to believe in the Bible itself... I just don't believe it is the true word from God.

 

You are correct that you must already have a belief in the Bible itself. It helps to do some research on the history of the Bible, and how it came to include the books that it includes. Since I'm a bookworm and love history, I find it very interesting.

 

I won't start a debate here, but there are Christians who believe the King James version is the only authoritative version.

[Liz CA]

Personally, I miss being aligned with other Christians. They were my tribe. I don't have a tribe anymore. And it's lonely. I haven't one good clue as to how someone finds a network of IRL friends outside a church. It perplexes me how to navigate society.

 

don't you associate with your friends anymore? Were they friends or just fellow-Christians? I think there is a big difference. I have a few good friends and I know many fellow-Christians.

If this friend (or if I) had doubts, expressed that "I don't believe this anymore", I don't think our friendship would dissolve on the spot like butter on a griddle. I have friends that are not Christians. I love them as much as my Christian friends. Sure, there are differences in opinion, sometimes due to the faith issue but we can always disagree and still be friends.

More importantly, I don't think it's biblical to shun everyone who is not a Christian (the kind of Christian you think they should be) or constantly trying actively to convert them - this turns more people off anyway.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

don't you associate with your friends anymore? Were they friends or just fellow-Christians? I think there is a big difference. I have a few good friends and I know many fellow-Christians.

If this friend (or if I) had doubts, expressed that "I don't believe this anymore", I don't think our friendship would dissolve on the spot like butter on a griddle. I have friends that are not Christians. I love them as much as my Christian friends. Sure, there are differences in opinion, sometimes due to the faith issue but we can always disagree and still be friends.

More importantly, I don't think it's biblical to shun everyone who is not a Christian (the kind of Christian you think they should be) or constantly trying actively to convert them - this turns more people off anyway.

 

The complication is that I've moved many, many times. I adore my Christian friends and associate with them when it's possible to do so. But Biblically, they're really not allowed to even have dinner with me, and I hate hate hate to put anyone in the position where they feel uncomfortable. I also hate the idea of being on every prayer list every Wednesday night in every state of the Union, complete with the whole speculation part. :eek:

 

Some of my friends I can't be that frank with, because they know my parents. And the truth of what I believe/don't believe would wound my parents deeply. Horribly. And I won't do that. So I do avoid close, heart-to-heart speech with many of my old friends for this reason. The relationship becomes very shallow.

 

And if they have kids, there's a strong concern with their kids spending much time with my kids. I haven't changed my strong conservative rearing of small children, but people are sure that's not true.

 

Oh, and they were good friends, not simply fellow Christians.

 

There's a huge difference, IMO, in a former Christian and just your run of the mill non-Believer. I know that always and always, we (ok, I -- I shall speak to myself) were open to welcoming unbelievers. It was the proper thing to do. But a former believer, having explicitly rejected The Truth was subject to different rules.

[cricket1178]

Interesting thread by the way.:) First of all, let me say that I am a Christian. However, there have been many times when I have questioned what I believe because of the differences of other Christians. I do believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God and that the Holy Spirit gives us the understanding of the Word. (Don't wish to debate my beliefs, just contributing to the thread:))There are times, though, that although my fellow Christians are "saying" the Word, it doesn't always ring true to what I "think" the meaning is. These times throw me into confusion. I have to really pray and seek the Lord for answers. When these answers don't come quickly, I get even more confused. But, eventually, things fall into place. My prayers usually go something like this, " Lord give me truth, or give them truth." Sometimes I find that I get eye opening revelations, sometimes my fellow Christians will get them. This always cements my faith. However, I can see how someone would falter in perseverence waiting for an answer and how the enemy could over take them and pull them away from the faith.

[Liz CA]

 

There's a huge difference, IMO, in a former Christian and just your run of the mill non-Believer. I know that always and always, we (ok, I -- I shall speak to myself) were open to welcoming unbelievers. It was the proper thing to do. But a former believer, having explicitly rejected The Truth was subject to different rules.

 

your post just shows so clearly and sadly where so many churches go wrong, I had to laugh at the part with the prayer list - but again, UNFORTUNATELY, you depicted the scenario correctly. There are quite a few people I know who would react just that way but I cannot even imagine anyone telling me it would be wrong to have dinner with my friend - for whatever reason. Where in the Bible do they take that from? Never mind - I can figure it out. Misinterpretation causes the worst kind of behavior. It is my firm opinion it is better to err on the side of kindness, friendship and love than to possibly misinterpret something and cause so much harm. Ooops, was that preaching? Sorry.

 

Moving always makes keeping in contact more difficult. I faced it once, you mentioned multiple moves.

And I do understand your concern regarding hurting your parents. I couldn't agree with it more.

[Storm Bay]

.

 

So, from that, I was definitely finished with "church".

 

That really assisted me to step back anyway and realize how offensive I found it that my relationship and knowledge of God had to come to me from a man who preached or man (occasionally woman) who taught Sunday School. I can't even begin to tell you how many friends and family or associates I have who can't tell me what they believe without the defense of "that's what my pastor said". I believe God wants me to know him straight through him. It's more than possible; it's necessary.

 

I think the realization that SO many (if not nearly all) Christians in church are sheep. They don't think for themselves. They don't decide their beliefs for themselves. They believe what a preacher tells them and what snippets they read from the Bible (another can of worms). I started looking at the things I had been TOLD to believe and stepping back to say "What do I think about this?". ! LOL

 

I agree with so much of this! I believe that everyone is responsible to read and study for themselves. What they choose is their business, for better of for worse. What bothers me most is when people don't take the time to really think things through for themselves, whether it be spiritual (or not spiritual!) beliefs, politics, education, etc. I don't think that this type of acceptance of what other people say is limited to Christian churches, either. One of the things I like about this board is how many people here think!!! Perhaps not in every category--I find that I'm always finding new areas I haven't yet taken the time to think through because there are just so many of them that I think I could do this all my life and not be finished yet.

[cricket1178]

I am so pleased that you know how to navigate socially and have a great circle of friends even though I have not figured this out yet. Which is what I thought I said in my first post. Everyone else seems to know how to do this and I don't and that makes me sad. For me, though, not for them. Good for others that they "get" how to do it.

 

 

 

I can totally relate. I am not good at social interaction, either. Most people who really get to know me, don't like me.:(

[*anj*]

But Biblically, they're really not allowed to even have dinner with me, and I hate hate hate to put anyone in the position where they feel uncomfortable.

 

Pam,

Where does that come from? I don't know of anything like that in Scripture, unless it's a humanly instituted "tradition" that some church has chosen to burden people with.

[Mekanamom]

I don't know about Pam's situation, but my former church does not want its members associating with "apostates". I think the reality in practice probably depends on the individuals involved, but the "issue" is there.

[Mrs Mungo]

Pam,

Where does that come from? I don't know of anything like that in Scripture, unless it's a humanly instituted "tradition" that some church has chosen to burden people with.

 

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

I'm not sure how anyone could read the above and then believe Christians shouldn't eat with non-Christians.

 

 

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Probably my own juxtaposition of Hebrews 10 and I Cor 5. And how "He who sets his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the Kingdom..." And how a person who is married to a non-believer is not bound in the marriage if the unbeliever wants out. As if they're not a real person, according to Paul.

 

I suspect I'm not correct here. :-) I smushed too much stuff together in my haste.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I don't know about Pam's situation, but my former church does not want its members associating with "apostates". I think the reality in practice probably depends on the individuals involved, but the "issue" is there.

 

I suspect you would enjoy Joy Castro's The Truth Book.

[PariSarah]

And how a person who is married to a non-believer is not bound in the marriage if the unbeliever wants out. As if they're not a real person, according to Paul.

 

:eek:

 

Sweetie, you are so getting Paul wrong.

 

(Um . . . picture that said in a loving tone?)

 

Paul explicitly says that the marriage is not binding because "it is to peace that you have been called." The believing spouse is being told to let the unbeliever go when the unbeliever wants it that way, not because the unbeliever doesn't count, but because she does. Paul would rather see a divorce than an unbeliever made miserable by a believing spouse who refuses to separate.

 

I would say the very opposite of what you said. In fact, this passage should scandalize Christians, b/c Paul is saying that acting with grace and love toward the unbeliever is more important that doing what's right according to the believer's standards. The personhood of the unbeliever is more important than the personal piety of the believer.

 

And then I'll just echo Mrs. Mungo's disbelief that anyone who reads the Bible can seriously believe that unbelievers are to be denied all table fellowship. Sure, it would be inappropriate to share Eucharist. But dinner? That one's clear as a bell.

 

Oh, and the 1 Cor 5 thing? Handing him over to Satan? Again, probably refers to being barred from the communal meal, not to shunning.

[Guest Amy in MS]

:eek:ARGH

I just wrote for half an hour and it didn't post.

Sorry.

Maybe I'll just keep it to myself.

Or, I'll try again tomorrow.

Amy

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

:eek:

 

Sweetie, you are so getting Paul wrong.

 

(Um . . . picture that said in a loving tone?)

 

Paul explicitly says that the marriage is not binding because "it is to peace that you have been called." The believing spouse is being told to let the unbeliever go when the unbeliever wants it that way, not because the unbeliever doesn't count, but because she does. Paul would rather see a divorce than an unbeliever made miserable by a believing spouse who refuses to separate.

 

I would say the very opposite of what you said. In fact, this passage should scandalize Christians, b/c Paul is saying that acting with grace and love toward the unbeliever is more important that doing what's right according to the believer's standards. The personhood of the unbeliever is more important than the personal piety of the believer.

 

And then I'll just echo Mrs. Mungo's disbelief that anyone who reads the Bible can seriously believe that unbelievers are to be denied all table fellowship. Sure, it would be inappropriate to share Eucharist. But dinner? That one's clear as a bell.

 

Oh, and the 1 Cor 5 thing? Handing him over to Satan? Again, probably refers to being barred from the communal meal, not to shunning.

 

I think I used to know that. :) It does ring a big bell.

 

I was so afraid my husband would leave me (or rather want me to leave) when I left the faith -- one of the reasons I stuck around and pretended as long as I did -- that I think I invented a whole lot of horrifying stuff.

 

Someday I shall read it all again with different eyes. Meanwhile, methinks, I should simply be quiet. :cool:

 

Thanks for "getting" me, btw. You're a dear.

[PinkInTheBlue]

Pam, it sounds like you and I would have so many things in common in all this. I too am limited in some of my relationships because there are many things I just couldn't deal with getting back to my family about. They are already putting us on all the prayers lists and 'tut-tut' shaking their heads about "not having those kids in church". I do still call myself a Christian but I am no longer a bible-believing, church attending, faithful few. I'm an independent thinking, God following, non-bible believing Christian. If my Daddy and his wife read that, they would very likely faint and definitely disown me. I can't discuss this with ANYONE in my life but my husband because he and I came to this thinking together through thinking, talking, reading, etc.

 

I feel like I really know what you are saying here.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam, it sounds like you and I would have so many things in common in all this. I too am limited in some of my relationships because there are many things I just couldn't deal with getting back to my family about. They are already putting us on all the prayers lists and 'tut-tut' shaking their heads about "not having those kids in church". I do still call myself a Christian but I am no longer a bible-believing, church attending, faithful few. I'm an independent thinking, God following, non-bible believing Christian. If my Daddy and his wife read that, they would very likely faint and definitely disown me. I can't discuss this with ANYONE in my life but my husband because he and I came to this thinking together through thinking, talking, reading, etc.

 

I feel like I really know what you are saying here.

 

It's a hard road, but it's walkable. Hang in there. {{{Jessica}}}

[PariSarah]

. . . that I think I invented a whole lot of horrifying stuff.

 

I gather that your dear brothers and sisters in Christ . . . uh, "helped" you invent some of it.

 

*sigh*

 

Well, dearest, I'm sorry you had a bad day. I had a bit of a snarler myself. But I suddenly find myself more motivated to get my degree and get out there and teach.

 

And I just remembered I have ice cream, pretzels, and chocolate sauce in the kitchen. Join me for a snack?

 

[Laura Corin]

For me, it's like sewing. I like to sew, but I know some other sew-ers who are just jerks. Stuck up, snobs, show-offs, but I'd never quit sewing because of them.

 

But those sewers don't tell you and your children that if you don't do cross-stitch in the approved way then you are going to hell. And the day after that comment, you don't find them doing their cross-stitch backwards and pretending that they are still following the rules. And still condemning others to hell.

 

Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,

But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

--MATTHEW VII

 

It's the hypocrisy of many of the Christians I meet (I live in a missionary town, so I have opportunity to meet a lot) that drives me (further) away from organised religion. Why am I and my children shunned by many?

 

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

--Mark XII

 

Sewers one can take of leave: they profess no moral right to adjudicate on your life. My Christian neighbours are different. I respect enormously the principals underlying the Christian religion, including those that I have quoted here, but I just can't cope with the way that it is widely practised.

 

A few months ago the daughter of a friend of mine was not invited to a birthday party at her Christian school - it's the only English-language school in town. Every other girl in her class was invited. Only she, who doesn't go to church and who had already been told that she was going to hell by one of her classmates, was not invited. Can you see how this might drive my friend away from the church that could produce such people?

 

Best wishes and thanks for allowing me to talk,

 

Laura

[cricket1178]

Pam,

Where does that come from? I don't know of anything like that in Scripture, unless it's a humanly instituted "tradition" that some church has chosen to burden people with.

 

 

I think she's getting this from 1 Cor. 5:11 where it says that a person calling themselves a believer but engages knowingly and willingly in continued sin. The Bible makes it clear that we are not to shun the world. Anyway, just thought I'd share that.

 

I completely understand what everyone is saying about being told how to live your life. I think it comes from well meaning individuals and I try very hard to remember that we are all just people doing the best we can.:)

[JWSJ]

I met an atheist once who called people who follow the crowd, or follow someone's teachings without thinking for themselves "sheeple". :)

 

Also known as "The Herd".

[Liz CA]

:eek:

 

Sweetie, you are so getting Paul wrong.

 

(Um . . . picture that said in a loving tone?)

 

 

And then I'll just echo Mrs. Mungo's disbelief that anyone who reads the Bible can seriously believe that unbelievers are to be denied all table fellowship. Sure, it would be inappropriate to share Eucharist. But dinner? That one's clear as a bell.

 

Oh, and the 1 Cor 5 thing? Handing him over to Satan? Again, probably refers to being barred from the communal meal, not to shunning.

 

I would have exactly said that!

Amen! Go Sarah, go!

[OnTheBrink]

But those sewers don't tell you and your children that if you don't do cross-stitch in the approved way then you are going to hell. And the day after that comment, you don't find them doing their cross-stitch backwards and pretending that they are still following the rules. And still condemning others to hell.

 

Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,

But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

--MATTHEW VII

 

It's the hypocrisy of many of the Christians I meet (I live in a missionary town, so I have opportunity to meet a lot) that drives me (further) away from organised religion. Why am I and my children shunned by many?

 

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

--Mark XII

 

Sewers one can take of leave: they profess no moral right to adjudicate on your life. My Christian neighbours are different. I respect enormously the principals underlying the Christian religion, including those that I have quoted here, but I just can't cope with the way that it is widely practised.

 

A few months ago the daughter of a friend of mine was not invited to a birthday party at her Christian school - it's the only English-language school in town. Every other girl in her class was invited. Only she, who doesn't go to church and who had already been told that she was going to hell by one of her classmates, was not invited. Can you see how this might drive my friend away from the church that could produce such people?

 

Best wishes and thanks for allowing me to talk,

 

Laura

 

I have to say, I'm totally flabbergasted at the treatment many on this thread have received from "Christians." Seriously. I'm not naive, or sheltered, or special, but if someone at my church treated people the way I've seen described here, they'd be taken to task over it, and quite seriously. I'm shocked and deeply saddened by this. It's not what Christianity is supposed to be. Children condemning other children to hell? Blows my mind. I can tell you, if my daughter ever said such a thing to anyone, well, let's just say the consequences would be swift and serious. And, I am sure I can speak for every single one of my friends that they'd do the same.

 

I appreciate the honesty everyone has given.

[Liz CA]

George Barna is a writer of seminal Christian works from way back. He's been a pollster for years. He's been doing research on how the face of Christianity is changing and he's found that, in fact, Christianity is changing down to its very core. His book, Revolution, is a short, easy read.

 

In it, he talks about how some are embracing the idea of *being* the church, rather than just attending church, and are actually leaving organized religion behind, or combining services offered from multiple churches, rather than being "members" of only a single denomination. He talks about how this will change the face of Christianity completely within the next few decades if the trend continues.

 

Some churches have actually begun offering group studies of this book (trying to skip the parts they don't like, I suppose), rather like they did with Purpose Driven Life, etc. I guess they think the best offense is a good defense, I don't know....

 

Very interesting read. I recommend it,

 

Regena

 

I remember a book by Arterburn titled "Toxic Faith" which addresses many of the issues we discussed here. Just throwing out another title for those interested in some reading material.

[Liz CA]

I have to say, I'm totally flabbergasted at the treatment many on this thread have received from "Christians." Seriously. I'm not naive, or sheltered, or special, but if someone at my church treated people the way I've seen described here, they'd be taken to task over it, and quite seriously. I'm shocked and deeply saddened by this. It's not what Christianity is supposed to be. Children condemning other children to hell? Blows my mind. I can tell you, if my daughter ever said such a thing to anyone, well, let's just say the consequences would be swift and serious. And, I am sure I can speak for every single one of my friends that they'd do the same.

 

I appreciate the honesty everyone has given.

 

fortunate and blessed to never have had a bad church experience. We have changed churches a few times and have finally found one that is a good fit.

 

While I would not say I have experienced church abuse to the extent described by some in this thread, my bil and sil have been through the wringer. I cringe everytime I remember it. Ouch - Cringe!

Thank God, he does not make salvation dependent on church membership.

[Peek a Boo]

I'm pretty much on the same bench as j.griff :-)

We attend a MS Lutheran church cuz that's how dh was raised and what he wants right now. I attend with him and point out things here and there, lol. i attend the fundamental fire n brimstone baptist church behind us when dh is outta town. i like bits and pieces from both.

 

I can offer that a couple of my best friends are NOT Christian, so here's holding out some hope Pam that you can still meet someone in the tribe you are accustomed to that will sit back and smoke a peace pipe w/ ya :)

PariSarah spelled it out well.

 

and toni --all i can offer about the abortion clinics is that you look in the phone book under abortion alternatives. there are quite a few of us that volunteer tons of time at crisis pregnancy clinics and open our homes to young women who need a safe place to stay. Just as you encounter extremes that shape your opinion, I too encounter the extreme side that performs an abortion, shoves some painkiller in their hand, and moves on to the next paycheck. The "I've had one before and I'd have one again just to piss you off" kind of thinking. And most reasonable people realize those extremes are NOT widespread.

 

Scarlett --excellent point! I whole-heartedly agree......"'If everyone I love was suddenly dead, would I still be worshipping this way?"

[Cathy in IL]

I am a Bible believing Christian. I have been in churches that frustrate me terribly. I had a time recently when I seriously questioned whether or not I could find a church where my family fit. My son's peanut allergy and medical issues made it hard to participate. One church just couldn't handle his allergy, so he was excluded from the children's activities. Other churches disappointed me because when my little guy was very sick in the hospital, no one would even seem to notice we had been gone. No one seemed to remember that he had been in the church bulletine as a prayer request. were they even praying if they didn't remember? I was extremely discouraged and disappointed in people, but even if I had not found a church to be a part of t would not have changed my beliefs. What people do or fail to do will not change my beliefs. After all, I believe that the Bible says we are all sinners. I believe the Bible says that we will have trouble in this world. I can't say I believe that and expect people to behave in sinless ways. I could have never found a church that fit my family, but I would have still been a Christian because of my beliefs.

 

I am thankful that I have found a church that embraces my family. Instead of being like some churches that have essentially said, "You chose to adopt special needs kids as a single, don't expect us to be inconvenienced or step up and help," this church has been different. They accomodate my children. They call to see how we are. They come along on hospital visits to help make it easier. I could go on, but the point is I have found a church that tries to do more than preach on Sundays. It's a great thing to have found, but even if I had not, my beliefs and relationship with God would have still stayed strong because it isn't based on people.

 

I do appreciate the posts on this thread. I try to teach my children that people are people deserving of respect and friendship even if they have a different belief system. I love that being in a big city allows me to expose my kids to all kinds of people. I don't want them to be afraid of people who are different than them or believe differently than them.

[Volty]

Wow, what an amazing thread. You ladies all impress me with your sincerity and willing to open up and share some very personal things that you can't even share with close friends/family at home. And even when you disagree, you do it with class and dignity.

 

Me, I was raised Catholic, then had a brief fling with a fundamentalist church doing military ministry when I was 18 and in the Army away from home for the first time. I hated my job, I hated the Army, (loved Germany though). I was miserable but they were there and nice and I felt the fellowship of the community and the love. Unfortunatly, it didn't make any sense, it was very judgemental, very strict, and I didn't appreciate the anti-Catholic rhetoric. It was stupid, it was clingy, I felt I had to leave my brain at the door. I was trapped in this uber-Chrstian near-cult. So after a few months of being happy with them, I was miserable with them too. I liked the people, I just didn't beleive like they did and I felt emotionally trapped.

 

This was 1991. Mercifully, I was reasigned to a unit deploying for the Gulf War. So I got out of that situation, so I was a bitter atheist for the first time just as I was putting my teenage life on the line to chase Saddam out of Kuwait. Obviously I came back from the war OK, but was still an angry atheist with an axe to grind.

 

So when I got out of the Army, I moved back in with my mom and went back to Catholic church mostly because I didn't want to disappoint her. Ah but it just never stuck. I never could make sense of it all any more. Looking back at my Catholic days as a kid, even then I had doubts. They just exploded in my run in with the evangelicals. Too many discrepencies, too many contradictions in the Bible. Prayers never seemed to help. I was really bitter and disillusioned with it all for a long time.

 

SO now I was in colege using my GI BIll money. While there I had a run in with some Unitarian Universalistss, had a great conversation, I had to really be in top form thinking and discussing things. It really inspired/impressed me. Religious folks as smart as me with a whole different approach to things. To Catholics, all protestants are the same- 1001 flavors of belief, who knows the difference or who cares?

 

UUs were something different though. So when I left mama's house to go to go to medical school. I checked them out. What a community of brilliant people, I fit in like a glove. I was so happy there. Three was no creed or doctrine. The talks were mostly led by the congregation and we had a rich depth of people to lead. It felt like a college class and many members were university professors. I liked the community and the fellowship and the friends.

 

And I came to peace with those years of resentment that I had towards the fundies and Christianity in general that made me so bitter. But I flunked out of medical school and landed back with my mom. Started substitute teaching and was back to being misrable. I had used up my GI Bill money for undergrad and the medical school bills were paid with student loans that I had no hope of repaying. So to flee the creditors I came to China and have been here for six years.

 

No church anymore, still agnostic, but really at peace with my beliefs (or lack thereof) and when I think about it like today, really missing that UU church.

[cricket1178]

and toni --all i can offer about the abortion clinics is that you look in the phone book under abortion alternatives. there are quite a few of us that volunteer tons of time at crisis pregnancy clinics and open our homes to young women who need a safe place to stay.

 

Peek a Boo, there are many at my church who do the same. I think just about every family in my church would not only take in the mothers during their pregnancy, but would also give them shelter after the birth, help take care of their baby, and teach them to fish not just give them fish.

[Kelli in TN]

Peek a Boo, there are many at my church who do the same. I think just about every family in my church would not only take in the mothers during their pregnancy, but would also give them shelter after the birth, help take care of their baby, and teach them to fish not just give them fish.

 

I prepared to do this last summer. My oldest daughter befriended a girl at work who already had two children (different fathers) and one on the way. The girl had little family to count on, no vehicle, never enough money. My daughter transported her, my two teen girls together bought Christmas for her daughters and I offered to let the whole gang live here for the summer and take care of the mom (she was to have a c-sec) while she recovered from the birth.

 

Ultimately she did not take us up on the offer, but it was a sincere offer, I would have taken care of her, her baby, and her two preschool children while she got back on her feet.

 

It never occurred to me not to help.

[OnTheBrink]

I have never started a thread that went to 9 pages. Can I have a cookie? :D

[GothicGyrl]

And Kelli, you, Peek, and Cricket, would be very big rareties. Peek, your example of the "extreme other side" is just that--way too extreme to be taken seriously. Far more people get abortions for reasons other than "because I can". The stats prove this.

 

There simply is no "teach them to fish" mentality here. None. It's like the water bottle ministry my former church had. Someone thought that buying bottles of water, with labels made with church information, and standing out on a major highway to pass them out for free, was a good thing. One time though, someone came in to the church because of this bottle thing. He left within two weeks because all he got was a "thanks for coming" and then he hears "See!! The ministry works!", which is a load of bull.

 

I'm not doubting you three at all. But you three are lost to the statistics. It just does not happen.

[DB in NJ]

Great question!

 

I haven't read all of the replies, so pardon me if this has already been brought up.

 

As a Christian, I will say that there are people "on my side" (so to speak) who I wish weren't. When a well-known Christian brings disgrace on himself (or herself) it is a bad mark against all Christians. Fair or unfair, that's just how it is.

 

I've heard time and again people say that Christians are "hypocrites" based on the actions of one or two prominent believers (i.e. televangelists). The problem with this thinking is that these people are putting their trust and hopes and faith into other PEOPLE instead of in the Lord.

 

People will let us down. There is no escaping that.

 

I agree with the OP that there is nothing a fellow believer could do that would change my faith. Because it's personal; between me and the Lord. And He has never let me down. I don't see things as He does, so sometimes I wish things were different. But I trust Him to know better.

 

I'm rambling now. Sorry!! :)

[*anj*]

And Kelli, you, Peek, and Cricket, would be very big rareties. Peek, your example of the "extreme other side" is just that--way too extreme to be taken seriously.

 

I'm not doubting you three at all. But you three are lost to the statistics. It just does not happen.

 

Toni,

With all due respect (don't you love it when someone starts out with that phrase?), but really....

I understand that you have had a bad experience. I really do. But can you grant that maybe your experience is atypical? Can you fathom that there might indeed be many Christians who would be willing to help out in a situation like this? Is it possible that some Christians may truly be unable to open their homes in this way? And are you saying that because they cannot open their homes they should not encourage women not to abort?

 

What statistics are you talking about above?

[*anj*]

I am a Bible believing Christian....

 

I was extremely discouraged and disappointed in people, but even if I had not found a church to be a part of t would not have changed my beliefs. What people do or fail to do will not change my beliefs. After all, I believe that the Bible says we are all sinners. I believe the Bible says that we will have trouble in this world. I can't say I believe that and expect people to behave in sinless ways. I could have never found a church that fit my family, but I would have still been a Christian because of my beliefs.

 

It's a great thing to have found, but even if I had not, my beliefs and relationship with God would have still stayed strong because it isn't based on people.

 

 

 

Cathy,

Thank you so much for saying this. You spoke my thoughts far more eloquently than I could have.

[Grace is Sufficient]

I was interested enough to read the whole thread (so far) and the general tone of the posts struck me as somewhat ironic. A fair amount of vitriol was dripping from the 'tolerant' toward those who had disagreed with them or made them feel unwelcome, while those brave few willing to represent the 'intolerant' side seemed, well, tolerant.

[Peek a Boo]

anj-- you're right of course. Those of us who are willing to help simply AREN't that much of a rarity. We just don't get utilized as much as we offer. Since so many choose abortion over continuing the pregnancy, then "stats support" that the option we offer doesn't get utilized. Unfortunately stats also support that most abortions ARE for convenience. Justified convenience? sure. But It's still convenience as opposed to life or death. Unfortunately it's *always* a life or death choice for the one that can't speak up.

 

toni-- your examples are extremes too! of course you've seen them --so have we. When you see people who DO live by those extremes it's hard to imagine a sensible option exists. But they do. And they are far more widespread than you suggest and certainly not lost to statistics :-)

 

I really didn't want to turn this into an abortion debate [altho i can certainly do that too, lol], but DID want to point out that when you lay a blanket extreme sterotype on ANY situation you are checking your brains at the "submit" key. If you can recognize an extreme scenario that i provide you need to be ready to recognize the extreme example YOU provide. regardless the topic.

[Peek a Boo]

toni-- i wanted to grab one thing you said since we were posting at the same time, hee hee.

 

what I have found is that there are far more girls who still would abort becuase even with help they simply don't want the challenges that would come w/ facing their family. No matter how much help is offered, a lot of people still won't take it.

[cricket1178]

There simply is no "teach them to fish" mentality here. None. It's like the water bottle ministry my former church had. Someone thought that buying bottles of water, with labels made with church information, and standing out on a major highway to pass them out for free, was a good thing. One time though, someone came in to the church because of this bottle thing. He left within two weeks because all he got was a "thanks for coming" and then he hears "See!! The ministry works!", which is a load of bull.

 

I'm not doubting you three at all. But you three are lost to the statistics. It just does not happen.

 

Sadly, I would have to say you are right. But, I do believe there are churches who are finely "getting it". It is not about how big your congregation is, it is about the purpose of the Lord fullfilled in the earth; and that takes discipleship. Teaching people "how" to fish is discipleship. I'm praying that the discipleship message gets out to believers.

[GothicGyrl]

you're right of course. Those of us who are willing to help simply AREN't that much of a rarity. We just don't get utilized as much as we offer. Since so many choose abortion over continuing the pregnancy, then "stats support" that the option we offer doesn't get utilized. Unfortunately stats also support that most abortions ARE for convenience. Justified convenience? sure. But It's still convenience as opposed to life or death. Unfortunately it's *always* a life or death choice for the one that can't speak up.

 

Peekie boo-boo--I think this is where we are crossing hairs. "You guys" ARE a rarity, whether you believe it or not, but it would be splitting hairs to try and determine whether that rarity is because people choose the "other" option or they just don't know you exsist. You don't walk in to a church (at least not someone who's considering abortion) and say "Hey I wanna kill my baby. Who wants to convince me to keep it". That's the extreme side, yes.

 

But, even on the non-extreme side, those that do find an alter-resource, don't get "here is a family who can take you in during your pregnancy and help you out, if you don't really want that abortion or adoption". No, everywhere you go it's either adoption, abortion or "tough luck you are on your own". There is no happy medium (that medium being "you guys" who open up your homes).

 

And here's why I believe this-- it would not be prudent on the church's part or Planned Parenthood, or even Welfare's part to say "here is a complete stranger who is willing to let you live with them for 3 months while you give birth to this unwanted child, try to get a job right after giving birth and give you a roof over your head. Oh, and all of this must be done within 3 months then you are out on your rear end. Oh, and they are only doing this so you don't "kill" your baby, they don't really care about you, they just don't want you to kill your baby".

 

Are YOU or Kelli, or anyone else saying this? No, I don't believe that at all. And I don't believe you'd think like that. But that's what the state agencies would be thinking and that would be the reason why you, kelli and others are not being offered up as "roofs over their heads". It's just too much of a risk, hassle and otherwise a pain in the butt for them. And to be quite honest, even if you remove the religious tone out of that statement, I wouldn't do it anyway, it's too much trouble for me (the me being a mom who is considering abortion). It's just not worth all of that trouble.

 

NOW--if your church actually stepped up and out and said "Listen we don't want you to abort, so we are not only offering you shelter, clothing and food, free, we are also going to teach you how to care for that child, help you get a job, get off drugs, get back in to school, etc........... and all you have to do in return, is not abort" --then I wouldn't be so angry about it.

 

But very few, if any, CHURCHES, do this. Individuals like yourself, maybe. But the actual church, who should be stepping up and doing this anyway, no.

 

But there are always strings attached (and not aborting in return for the above isn't a string..you know what I am talking about) and those strings are not good.

 

My whole point in mentioning anything I did, lest anyone think I want to make this all about one thing, is that the TRUE meaning of ministry has been lost. It's all a numbers game now and no actually ministering is occuring. If the church could get back to the true meaning of "minister", we might not have so many disgruntled people.

[Bess]

To answer a question that was brought up about not eating with those professed christians who are living in sin, here are the verses pertaining to that:

 

1Cr 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

 

 

1Cr 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

 

 

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

 

 

1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

 

 

1Cr 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

[LisaNY]

I am pretty sure I am confused, but (Pam) are you coming from an "I AM a Christian" or "I think I am" or "I was but now I'm just searching" or something else?

 

Because your last statement the one about not being able to understand how we socialize outside of church, is what brought my "thank you very much" on. It came across as a "I can't fathom any other way so they must not be getting any if they aren't getting it from church".

 

And I'm also not sure why the venom in your post towards my response to you as I was just answering what I perceived that statement to mean.

 

So what did I do wrong now?

 

I think Pam was speaking about her own dilemma in finding herself outside of the Church, the only social group she knew. I think she was speaking specifically about her own problem as to how to find friends, in general, when you don't go somewhere (Church, in her case) where you meet/fellowship with people on a regular basis.

 

Edit: (Love this feature) - nevermind - I see it was all worked out.

[*anj*]

anj--please re-read my post and don't assume that I didn't take in to consideration that there are people like those 3 who will do this.

 

One thing I want to correct in my post was the stats, I was typing without thinking about what I was trying to say--Peek is right that 93% of them are for "social" reasons (unwanted, etc...) so that I have to correct.

 

Okay, I'm glad to hear that.

 

But the "stats" (that is, based on experiences of people who've tried to get said help Peek, Kelli speak of) say that the help just isn't there.

 

 

My experience is not atypical and you know that. You know that there are more "mean ones" out there than "nice ones". It may not be your church, or Peek's or Kelli's, but they are there and more frequent than you nice ones. And, see above.

 

I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who has tried to get help, but was unable to do so. I can also say that if any woman came to me and was in need of help I would be willing to help and I could also point her toward at least three (privately run) agencies off the top of my head.

 

I also have to say that I don't know whether or not your situation is atypical. I cannot say that there are more "mean ones" than "nice ones." Truly, truly that has not been my experience. Have I known "Christians" who weren't especially "nice"? Of course. But I have also known non-Christians who weren't nice either. I think that is what Cathy was saying above. There is good and bad in everyone, and yes, even professing Christians fall short of the glory of God. I fall short every single day, but I know that God is so much bigger than I am, and that He can work in the human heart despite my failings.

 

 

Yes, I will stand up and stand my ground and say YES. If you can't put your money where your mouth is, shut up

 

I agree with you here. And thanks for clarifying that you weren't talking only about physical assistance, but financial as well. I'm also going to thank you because I just realized that there is more that my dh and I can do to help support this cause. We've been giving on an "as needed" basis, but we could do more. Thanks for that challenge.

 

 

 

This thread isn't about abortion though...

 

From our LEADER, who stood on the corner right next to the clinic "I don't have time or funds to help them. I'm just glad they didn't abort"....

 

This pisses me off, Anj. Sorry. you don't have the time and funds to help them survive, but you'll drive your big honkin' over priced SUV through traffic, cause multiple traffic jams with your protest, practically get arrested, assault two nurses and you count this as a "win"?

 

True. All true. Not good. And this is what frustrates so many of us, because that behavior defames Christians, churches, and most importantly, the name of Christ Himself.

[6packofun]

Sorry, Grace, that's just not true and you know it. It is a very typical response though, to those of us who don't believe or have changed our beliefs, for others to say we are actually the "intolerant" ones.

 

Please don't do this because you know it isn't true. At least not in this thread. Of course those of us who have stepped aside have some anger and "vitriol" "dripping" from us--did you expect to take getting kicked repeatedly with a smile on our face?

 

I won't and I don't.

 

Why so abrasive and, quite honestly, contradicting? This emotional posting leads to a major lack of clarity. You're *telling someone* that their opinion on the situation isn't true, "don't do this" because it's inaccurate and then you confirm that yes, you are dripping with anger. OK. No one HERE is kicking you repeatedly, are they?

 

Bummer. I really want to hear why those who no longer embrace Christianity (or any religion) have chosen not to, but all the angry flustering and back and forth leaves those of us who do care wondering whether you've really even thought it through intellectually or if you are only reacting. What in your life is going to give you peace about being offended or hurt, if your faith can't?

 

I think that the idea of intolerance comes in when someone has reached the point that they feel people "make" them choose how to live out their faith--or NOT live out faith at all--when it's not a power someone can truly have over them. Creating victimizers where there are none, through unfair generalizations, is pretty intolerant, isn't it?

[cricket1178]

NOW--if your church actually stepped up and out and said "Listen we don't want you to abort, so we are not only offering you shelter, clothing and food, free, we are also going to teach you how to care for that child, help you get a job, get off drugs, get back in to school, etc........... and all you have to do in return, is not abort" --then I wouldn't be so angry about it.

 

This post is getting off track, sorry. But, this is exactly what our church is doing. We have purchased 50 acres with the hopes of building small houses to provide not just mothers in trouble, but families who may need help learning to be a family with a safe place to go to get off drugs, get back in school and learn simple things, like how to care for your dc and how to work. Many in our church are establishing businesses to provide jobs for such individuals/families. All of the food, shelter, clothing, would be provided free. With all the dysfunction in todays society, families do not know how to be families anymore. Our church believes we have a call to disciple families, youth, and yes, mothers without husbands. This is a work in progress and will take sometime to get it going, but I had to respond to this because I am very excited about it. I know it isn't the purpose of the original post. Please forgive me.:o

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who has tried to get help, but was unable to do so. I can also say that if any woman came to me and was in need of help I would be willing to help and I could also point her toward at least three (privately run) agencies off the top of my head.

 

 

Way back when... well, in my true believer days, an acquaintance of my dh's and mine got an abortion. She felt this was her only option. After offering to adopt the kid if she'd just have it -- and we surely would have -- I didn't just turn my back and condemn this woman. How can you? I drove her home from the PP clinic, lobbing nary a dirty look nor hand grenade in the general direction of the doctors and nurses there, set up meals for a couple of days, and took her 2 y/o to our house for three nights so she could recover in peace. We were on call to come over immediately should she need anything.

 

I don't think I was particularly remarkable or exceptional, not in my circle of fundamentalist friends, anyhow. I think any of the families in my church and in like-minded churches would have helped an individual in need, or found practical help for her and facilitated this help.

 

Life isn't always neat and tidy and perfect. And she without sin can just pick up that stone to cast. (Not.)

 

Maybe we would have had a different attitude if we'd have owned an SUV, I dunno. ;)

[LisaNY]

Most of the discussion has been centered on the behavior of others, but very little on the behavior of the One who began it all. As Cathy shared, people will fail us, but that should not determine our loyalty to Jesus (Yeshua).

 

I did not become a believer to be part of an earthly organization. I became a believer to be part of the Kingdom of G-d. I'm going to serve Him, and Him alone. I think of the persecuted believers in other parts of the world that are killed, jailed, and have countless other things done to them. I think in many ways they are more blessed than we are here in America. They know what it means to serve Him, and Him alone. They know what it means to truly lay down their lives for the One Who gave His life for them.

 

Yeshua Himself was betrayed by His brothers, but that did not sway Him from doing what His Abba had called Him to do.

 

We need to remind ourselves of why we came to faith in the first place. I would hope it was because you took hold of the One who took hold of you by giving His life for you. Men will fail you, and hurt you, etc., but why would that stop you from purposing to serve Him, no matter what man may do to you (even when men do horrible things in His name)?