Little House on the Prairie - the "Indian" issue

[lauraw4321]

I've really enjoyed reading Little House in the Big Woods, and now Little House on the Prairie to my girls (almost 4 & almost 6).  My older daughter has a LOT of questions about Native Americans brought about by the book.  Although the book does present some nuance about the issue of settlers taking land from the Indians (Laura asks a lot of questions about that at one point) I think the overall message DD gets is Indians are bad, they steal from the Ingalls, they're dangerous, etc.

 

What have you done to address this difficult issue with your young children?  Are there some books that would be appropriate to read to them that shows the Native American point of view?

 

[mamaraby]

What about reading Louise Erdrich's series as well? The first one is called "The Birchbark House." It covers the same general slice of history, but from the Native American perspective.

[Hunter]

What about reading Louise Erdrich's series as well? The first one is called "The Birchbark House." It covers the same general slice of history, but from the Native American perspective.

 

Is there a list somewhere of the order and titles of this series?

[MEmama]

This isn't a difficult topic unless you make it into one. Tell her the truth and enjoy following rabbit trails. People had been living in this land for thousands of years, they had enormous cities ( like Cahokia), varied cultures, rich agricultural practices (those plains didn't just make themselves)...and then the Europeans moved in and stole it. We don't need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago, but we should be if we don't own up now to the truths and injustices. She may enjoy learning about various tribes in the areas where the Ingalls lived, how the native peoples survived in Wisconsin vs on the plains and so on. Likewise, following the common paths of the settlers as they moved west is a fascinating cultural study. By giving her an understanding now of how and why those cultures collided you'll strengthen her compassion for similar events throughout history and the world.

[Myeightkiddies]

My children have a clear idea of what it was like from the Native American perspective (I'm NA).

 

A gentle way to teach your daughter the "Indian" view is to let her determine how she would feel about it.  Walk her around the house and yard.  Ask her to point out some of the things that she likes about the house.  She may say that she likes the couch because it is comfortable.  She could point to a window because that is where she watches for Dad to come home.  There may be toys or pillows or a swingset or garden.  

 

After the tour, tell her to imagine that a group of people opened the front door and came into the house.  They declared that the house is now theirs.  The toys and couch and swingset are theirs.  They will be using the garden now.  They will control the use of the window.  Some will sleep in her room.  Your family will need to go find some place to stay.  You can't take any of your things.  Maybe these new people will send you far away to a small place where you know no one.  Ask her how she would feel. 

 

Would she be sad?  Would she be angry at these people?  If you all were forced to live on a little square lot nearby, would you try to come back and get some of your things?  Would the family be tempted to retake their home from these intruders?  It may let her know understand how the Native Americans felt.

 

Definitely word and present things to her at her level.  You don't want to scare her or make her cry, so scale things appropriately.  Be sure to emphasize that this isn't really going to happen to your family but it did to the Native Americans.  Definitely do not want any nightmares, but you get the idea.

[...................]

It wasn't a big deal for us. We just talked about it, got some positive books about native Americans from the library, and talked some more.

[Indian summer]

I think we talked about the clash between the social norms of the two groups at the time. Comparisons of ideas each held about appropriate dress, ownership of property, historical ways of dealing with conflict. I didn't ask my kids to choose a good guy and a bad guy, but rather to try to see things from both sides. How might you feel if strangers came and claimed land that you used? How might you feel to see strangers half naked in your home, taking your things?

[Guest]

4 and 6 are a bit young. Yes, I grew up with Laura's books when I was that age and read them to my older kids, but my littlest has the Renee Graef picture books:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=Renee%20Graef%20Little%20House&index=blended&sourceid=Mozilla-search

 

which are very true to the originals but written for modern children. LHOP has the worst racism of the series, even though it is the best known. I would skip it before third grade at the least and and go straight to Plum Creek or else make a lot of margin notes for editing on the fly.

[Guest]

Is there a list somewhere of the order and titles of this series?

 

On Goodreads:

 

https://www.goodreads.com/series/96975-the-birchbark-house

 

and of course I'd never heard of them before because of the age gap between my sons. TYFS!

 

Yes, I am already overthinking and overplanning introducing Laura to little ds; I had no idea how popular she was when I was growing up so she's almost like a family member to me (and so many of her other fans) and not just an author I can easily skip over or replace with someone else.

 

OP, my olders also loved Caddie Woodlawn, which is set at about the same period of history and also has a strong, female character. Again, I would recommend waiting until third grade, but my kiddo is enjoying The Last Unicorn, I already read him Madeleine L'Engle's Time Quartet, and his brother was begging for Charles Dickens and Stephen Hawking at about this age, so it's kind of hard to make sweeping generalizations about little kids and read alouds. 

[Hunter]

On Goodreads:

 

https://www.goodreads.com/series/96975-the-birchbark-house

 

and of course I'd never heard of them before because of the age gap between my sons. TYFS!

 

Yes, I am already overthinking and overplanning introducing Laura to little ds; I had no idea how popular she was when I was growing up so she's almost like a family member to me (and so many of her other fans) and not just an author I can easily skip over or replace with someone else.

 

OP, my olders also loved Caddie Woodlawn, which is set at about the same period of history and also has a strong, female character. Again, I would recommend waiting until third grade, but my kiddo is enjoying The Last Unicorn, I already read him Madeleine L'Engle's Time Quartet, and his brother was begging for Charles Dickens and Stephen Hawking at about this age, so it's kind of hard to make sweeping generalizations about little kids and read alouds.

Thank you very much!

[kiana]

Caddie Woodlawn is great and there's a sequel, Magical Melons.

[LSHS]

I agree with what others have said about being honest about the history and seeing where your kids ask questions. My son was six when we read it (he's now seven and we're still reading through the series) and he definitely did have questions, but we were able to talk about it in a way that made sense to him. And as he's gotten older, he still asks questions, but we see that as a good thing. 

[Tracy]

It has been a couple of years since we read this series, but I thought that it did a nice job of demonstrating that there is bad and good everywhere.  To start, the Ingalls went into Indian Territory before they had permission to go.  That explains a lot of the antagonism of the Native Americans.  And then not all of the Native Americans were antagonistic.  This is a normal part of any culture.  There is good and bad. Sometimes, there is bad done with good intentions.  People are different within a culture.  And those of different cultures struggle to understand each other.  Some individuals (from both sides) try harder than others.  Sometimes people are wronged by another individual from another group, and they struggle their whole life to forgive and understand, and instead blame the whole group.  It is stereotypical to say that everyone from either side was without fault, and I thought this was evident in the series.  

[Sahamamama]

I've really enjoyed reading Little House in the Big Woods, and now Little House on the Prairie to my girls (almost 4 & almost 6).  My older daughter has a LOT of questions about Native Americans brought about by the book.  Although the book does present some nuance about the issue of settlers taking land from the Indians (Laura asks a lot of questions about that at one point) I think the overall message DD gets is Indians are bad, they steal from the Ingalls, they're dangerous, etc.

 

What have you done to address this difficult issue with your young children?  Are there some books that would be appropriate to read to them that shows the Native American point of view?

 

We've read through Little House in the Big Woods (LHBW), Little House on the Prairie (LHP), Farmer Boy, Silver Lake, Plum Creek, Long Winter, and Little Town on the Prairie (LTP) so far this school year, and here's the approach we've taken to this issue (and other issues) -- we talk it all over, dig a bit more, and talk some more. We read one chapter at a time, with lots of discussion before, during, and after each chapter. Not so much (I think) to kill the love of the story, but enough to bring some issues to the forefront.

 

In LHBW, not much comes up in relation to Native Americans. Instead, we read descriptions of how to make cheese, how to smoke meat in a stump, how to make a straw hat, that sort of thing. IMO, LHBW is a gentle introduction to a different era, a different way of life. It sets the stage for what comes after by making the point that life on the frontier was different from the way most of us live now. At this point, I briefly asked, "I wonder, if life was so different, were people different? Did they think differently from the way we do now?" (As if there's any consensus).

 

Instead of being prescriptive (e.g., "think this way"), I think the books reveal Laura's ambivalence about quite a few things: women's rights and roles, Native Americans, the settling of the frontier, slavery, racial prejudice, education, her own family's poverty and lack of food (compare her childhood to Almanzo's), and modernization. I think she admired and respected her parents, and as a child was taught to obey them. But still, as we've read through the books this year -- and I've seen them through the lens of woman-wife-mother -- I've noticed the adult Laura revealing her thoughts about things which she was not at liberty to criticize as a child.

 

In LHP, she portrays herself as a little girl who is supposed to obey her parents without protest. I don't think it's coincidental that it's bed time when she questions her parents about the rightness of Native Americans being pushed off their land by white settlement. So, when she questions them, they silence her by their parental authority -- "Be quiet, Laura, and go to sleep" -- rather than their moral authority. But I think the adult Laura is asking the reader to ask the question, "Who was right? Little Laura or Pa and Ma?" She certainly doesn't hide how her mother felt about Indians.

 

Little House on the Prairie -- from "Prairie Day"

 

"Why don't you like Indians, Ma?" Laura asked, and she caught a drip of molasses with her tongue.

 

"I just don't like them; and don't lick your fingers, Laura," said Ma. [Notice the attempt to change the subject by appealing to parental authority].

 

[but Laura will not drop the subject so easily] "This is Indian country, isn't it?" Laura said. "What did we come to their country for, if you don't like them?" [so I wonder which Laura really asked these questions -- the child, or the adult?]

 

Ma said she didn't know whether this was Indian country or not [it's hotly debated how much Charles Ingalls knew about the land -- settler or squatter?]. She didn't know where the Kansas line was [quite possibly true... or not]. But whether or no, the Indians would no be here long [actually, Caroline....] Pa had word from a man in Washington that the Indian Territory would be open to settlement soon. It might already be open to settlement. They could not know, because Washington was so far away [some historians today feel that Laura was writing an apologetic for her parents, others disagree and think she's revealing that they were truly on Indian land].

 

Little House on the Prairie -- from "The Tall Indian"

 

[Laura is in bed while Pa plays the ballad of Alfarata, the Indian maiden. But Laura is not asleep]. And Laura asked, "Where did the voice of Alfarata go, Ma?"

 

"Goodness!" Ma said. "Aren't you asleep yet?"

 

"I'm going to sleep," Laura said. "But please tell me where the voice of Alfarata went?"

 

"Oh I suppose she went west," Ma answered. "That's what Indians do."

 

"Why do they do that, Ma?" Laura asked. "Why do they go west?"

 

"They have to," Ma said.

 

"Why do they have to?"

 

"The government makes them, Laura," said Pa. "Now go to sleep." [Parental authority]

 

He played the fiddle softly for a while. Then Laura asked.... "Will the government make these Indians go west?"

 

"Yes," said Pa. "When white settlers come into a country, the Indians have to move on. the government is going to move these Indians farther west, any time now. That's why we're here, Laura. White people are going to settle all this country, and we get the best land because we get here first and take our pick. Now do you understand?"

 

"Yes, Pa," Laura said. "But Pa, I thought this was Indian Territory. Won't it make the Indians mad to have to--"

 

"No more questions, Laura," Pa said firmly. "Go to sleep." [And here the chapter ends, as if to leave the question hanging in the reader's mind].

 

Little House on the Prairie -- from "Prairie Fire"

 

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian," Mr. Scott said.

 

Pa said he didn't know about that. He said he figured that Indians would be as peaceable as anybody else if they were let alone. On the other hand, they had been moved west so many times that naturally they hated white folks. But an Indian ought to have sense enough to know when he was licked. With soldiers at Fort Gibson and Fort Dodge [the same soldiers that are eventually coming to throw Pa off Indian land], Pa didn't believe these Indians would make any trouble.

 

I can't find the exact place, but I'm fairly certain that in some other part of one of these books, Laura comes out and writes "Ma hated Indians." That's rather blunt, right? What do you do with these statements? We read them and discussed them. For our family, this was the best approach.

 

In Little Town, there's a chapter in which Pa and some other men in town put on a minstrel show in blackface. Research that for a bit as a parent! Just, wow. I did, and was glad I did. We learned about the deep-seated racial prejudice in America during nearly all of the 1800s and beyond, which allowed blackface to be so popular. We learned about hambone, Juba Dance, jump Jim Crow, Mungo (a stereotyped blackface minstrel character), other stereotypes and caricatures, using dialect to stereotype, and more. Pa sings about "darkies," right? There's a conversation waiting to happen.

 

These CDs are also a good resource for more background on these books. The inside CD jackets have information about the songs that led us to do more research on the songs in the books. HTH.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Pas-Fiddle-Charles-Ingalls-American/dp/B004EJUMP6/ref=pd_bxgy_m_text_y

 

http://www.amazon.com/Arkansas-Traveler-Music-Little-Prairie/dp/B000JBXOQW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398900526&sr=8-1&keywords=arkansas+traveler+pa%27s+fiddle

 

http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Land-Musical-Tributes-Ingalls/dp/B000J3FHBK/ref=pd_bxgy_m_text_z

 

 

Edited to Add: We would not have taken this approach with 4 and 6 year olds, but would have (and did) simply read the books. The discussion worked well with the girls this year (7, 7, and 9). Any younger and I think it would have been too much for mine. HTH.

[Elisabet1]

There were multiple tribes in their area, including some violent ones. In fact, the Lakota was being attacked and killed (and almost killed off) by another tribe in the SD area of their settlement. 

 

If you really want to address Native American history, you need to remember that there is as much diversity there as there is anywhere else in the world. Not all American Indians, Native Americans, or whatever else you want to call them, are the same, nor have they ever been the same. There were peaceful tribes, violent ones, intellectual ones, barbaric ones. Some were Nomadic, some were farmers. It is very worth researching. And it is best to not go in to the research with any sort of pre-conceived notions, PC or not. Each tribe has its own, and different, culture.

 

 

[MotherGoose]

I read it to my dd at 5 or so and she also asked about the Indians. I think Wilder did try as the PP noted to sort of show both sides of things in some ways. She did not portray all Indians as evil, and she talked about the good and the bad. She and Pa clearly had appreciation for the Osage who prevented the massacre in LHOTP. I think it depends on the child. My dd also asked questions about the Indians that her sister, who is now 5, would probably not ask. I wouldn't raise the subject unless asked. With my oldest dd, when she asked questions, I did something like PP said about talking about how people came in and said things now belonged to the white people and not the Indians. She can sort of understand how people in different times thought of things differently than they do now. It's an ongoing conversation (she's 8 now). We have visited Burr Oak, Iowa, Mansfield, MO, and I have been to DeSmet so we are huge Laura fans here. I personally try not to put my 21st century lens onto people of another time and judge them too harshly; everyone is a product of his or her time and I can't say how I might have responded if I was coming across the prairie on a covered wagon either.

[Alicia64]

When my boys and I were reading I'd often interject and say, "it sounds like Pa was on land he wasn't supposed to be on" etc. I didn't just read the words and not comment.

 

I also explained again why they were called Indian versus Native American.

 

Like a poster said, follow rabbit trails and talk to the girls about the history of Native American in America.

 

Alley

[mama27]

I actually skipped some lines in some if the books that were too...derogatory? to Native Americans. My youngest listening was 7 and I didn't feel she needed to know that.

[Stars]

When I read LHOTP to my son, he was 4 or 5.  Our issue at the time was limited to the language used about the Native Americans.  When we reached passages like the one someone helpfully quoted upthread in which Ma says she just doesn't like Indians, I would stop and add commentary as needed.  Mostly, I was focused on drawing his attention to racial bias and helping him to realize it was wrong.  I expect to do the same thing with the why-did-they-take-their-land aspect the next time we read the books.

[Carrie75]

This isn't a difficult topic unless you make it into one. Tell her the truth and enjoy following rabbit trails. People had been living in this land for thousands of years, they had enormous cities ( like Cahokia), varied cultures, rich agricultural practices (those plains didn't just make themselves)...and then the Europeans moved in and stole it. We don't need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago, but we should be if we don't own up now to the truths and injustices. She may enjoy learning about various tribes in the areas where the Ingalls lived, how the native peoples survived in Wisconsin vs on the plains and so on. Likewise, following the common paths of the settlers as they moved west is a fascinating cultural study. By giving her an understanding now of how and why those cultures collided you'll strengthen her compassion for similar events throughout history and the world.

 

This post is one of the many reasons why I love this forum. I have never even HEARD of Cahokia. What a fascinating discovery for me today! I can't wait to share this with my boys.

[eternalsummer]

I think it's one of the great things about the Laura Ingalls Wilder books - they're told, for the most part, from the point of view of a pioneer girl in the late 1800s, and that is explicit within the books.  It makes it easy to talk about how the pioneers (and especially their children) might have seen and how they felt about Native Americans.

 

You don't have to present it (and the books don't present it, really) as if Laura's POV is objective, and it's really valuable as an example of a subjective POV.

[Hunter]

I put The Birchbark House on hold. I hope it's good.

 

I'm just SO tired of talking about racism with students. At one point, I stopped hounding on the evils of racism, and focused on discussing human rights violations as a whole. But now I don't even want to talk about human rights violations.

 

Humans are amazingly good, but also amazingly horrible. I just get tired of talking about it. Tired, tired, tired. In the long run, I don't think all this talk changes anything.

 

I'm just trying to present a variety of books from different points of view, and let the authors speak for themselves, good and bad. I'm focusing on variety now, not talking. I don't want to talk anymore. I'm tired of the sound of my own voice.

[Serenade]

What about reading Louise Erdrich's series as well? The first one is called "The Birchbark House." It covers the same general slice of history, but from the Native American perspective.

 

 

We loved that series here. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I am not trying to be flippant in this response. 

 

We all read these as children, didn't we?  And I doubt any person in this thread turned out racist because of it. 

 

So I think as long as you just answer questions honestly and move on, there's really not much to worry about.  The kids will probably reread them several times in their lives and get something new from the books each time. 

[Sahamamama]

I am not trying to be flippant in this response. 

 

We all read these as children, didn't we?  And I doubt any person in this thread turned out racist because of it. 

 

So I think as long as you just answer questions honestly and move on, there's really not much to worry about.  The kids will probably reread them several times in their lives and get something new from the books each time. 

Yes, exactly! I read these books (on my own) when I was a girl, and only took from them the little girl's perspective -- the pioneer story, the home life, the fiddle music, the grasshopper plague, the hard work, the way work was done back in the "old days."

 

Later, I read them as a young adult, and noticed more of the conflict in the books. But at that time, I was more interested in the romance between Laura and Almanzo. ;)

 

As a mother now, I've read them again with my daughters. It's been interesting to see the girls' reactions to the stories, and my own shift of perspective. I never could have gone along with so many moves, the way Ma did! But that was a wife's role in those days, wasn't it? I'm not even certain that a woman had the right to refuse to go, if her husband declared the family was moving west.

 

I've talked with my oldest daughter at least as much about the changes in attitudes about women and men as we have about racial attitudes. She was curious about some of my comments concerning Ma! LOL.

 

You know, this time through, what I came away with the most was the adult (author) Laura's sense of longing -- or, not exactly that, but... something akin to longing. Homesickness? Heartache? I never saw that in there before, but this time, I did. It's like an older woman looking back on a way of life that's gone, and thinking about her childhood again, the good and the bad, the hard and the happy. It made me think back on my own childhood, and see it as quite far back there. A finished chapter, for sure.

 

Perhaps it's more me than the books themselves? I don't know, but they are worth re-reading throughout life.

[Walking-Iris]

I am not trying to be flippant in this response. 

 

We all read these as children, didn't we?  And I doubt any person in this thread turned out racist because of it. 

 

So I think as long as you just answer questions honestly and move on, there's really not much to worry about.  The kids will probably reread them several times in their lives and get something new from the books each time. 

 

I never read them as a child. if they were addressed in public school (I'm sure they must have been) I don't have any memory of it. My only memories of Little House on the Prairie as a child is a TV show. 

 

I read them the first time as an adult when I bought a set to have around for homeschooling purposes.

 

But---I grew up in Oklahoma City, and was surrounded by so many various ethnic groups, and had the the type of family that would have shunned the idea of treating any ethnic group wrongly, that I have a very difficult time even understanding how one could ever be racist. It's an appalling and unthinkable thought to me. In our study of history my oldest has asked me why people would treat others in that way, and I have to honestly tell him I don't know. Because regardless of the reasons we find in history, there's no excuse for it.

 

But It was such a non-issue in my childhood. Mainly because I was surrounded by adults and children of various backgrounds and even languages. 

 

I think a child who could potentially grow up to have racist/prejudicial leanings has more to do with the adults in their life than a book. The examples and words they see and hear from adults, they could either grow up emulating or trying very hard to distance themselves from  as an adult. I see these threads all the time, where posters are worried about some theme or word in a book. It's not a book's influence I would worry about so much as the attitudes of adults teaching that child.

 

I feel Laura Ingalls was trying as an adult, writing these books, to understand what she couldn't understand as a child about the political/racial climate of this country at that time. But also it's such a small part of the series, that it's easy when reading them to kids to focus on Laura's life and be immersed in frontier living. The books really do have a sweetness and innocence that make them appealing for children.

[Guest Ariestar]

I think this is a good opportunity to talk about ancient civilizations and from where & when the American Indians migrated.  They didn't have a concept of land ownership and were amused when the white man wanted to pay them for the land.  There were good and bad in both cultures, so I wouldn't paint either as wrong or right.  Ma saw the Indians as barbaric, while Pa always saw the good in them.  I think that makes for a realistic balance.

[ErinE]

I am not trying to be flippant in this response.

 

We all read these as children, didn't we? And I doubt any person in this thread turned out racist because of it.

 

So I think as long as you just answer questions honestly and move on, there's really not much to worry about. The kids will probably reread them several times in their lives and get something new from the books each time.

We used the stories as a chance to talk about the differing viewpoints. How did Pa feel? What about Ma? How do you think the Native Americans felt?

[Reefgazer]

I read the Little House books to my children without commentary, just as they were read to me as a child.  The books are about a little girl's POV growing up in 19th century America, and I leave it at that.

[Haiku]

In the long run, I don't think all this talk changes anything.

 

Sometimes I feel this way, too, but I do think that social change does happen when people are more willing to speak about things. Humans being what we are, we will never be free of prejudice of one type or another. We're just not wired to view everyone equally and openly. We are wired to be clannish, and we always will be. But I do think that society trends toward openness, and overall things do get better over time for oppressed groups when we are willing to speak about it.

 

We all read these as children, didn't we?  And I doubt any person in this thread turned out racist because of it. 

 

There are many things I read as a child that, when I read them again as an adult, made me go  :scared:. But the things I remember from reading the books as a child are not the things that stand out to me now for being racist, sexist, what-have-you. My favorite books when I was little were Carolyn Haywood's Betsy books. Oh-my-holy-sexism! But I didn't grow up to think that little girls needed to wear dresses and white anklet socks any more than I grew up to think that children going into the house of a man they don't know is ok. Those racist, sexist, old-fashioned things were not what made the story for me. I don't think they really registered. I didn't even remember there being racism in the LHOTP books. I just remembered being fascinated with Laura's pioneer life.

 

I try not to make too much of these things in books my kids read.

[Soror]

I read a few of the books to ds when he was about 7 iirc. I edited out the worst parts, there are some things I couldn't bring myself to say but I don't recall any discussion at that time. Ds read Farmer Boy on his own last year I think I've thought about reading some of them for our study of the US next year but I don't think *I* can read them again, they bother me so much, not just the Native American issue but the parent child relationships.

[Reefgazer]

I'm really not trying to be insensitive or rude, but we (collectively, in this country) have been inundated with charges of racism, sexism, ageism, and every other -ism for every real or perceived slight that I am to the point that I just don't care anymore.  What do they call it when you don't want to donate to worthy causes anymore, donor fatigue?  Similar to that.  Government-sponsored racism and most -isms are a thing of the past in the United States, but every time I turn around, someone is offended over some real or perceived small slight.  I'm sure I have been discriminated against in the past for a few reasons I can think of, but I put on my big-girl panties and move on.  I think the constant complaining about being offended is actually one of the factors that has led to such truly hateful things we have seen in the news lately - people are just fed up with being told that a perfectly innocent turn of phrase means they're _______ist.  I think that is why I refuse to comment on any -isms in the books I read to my kids; they'll be beaten over the head with it soon enough by everyone else, and I'm not adding to it.

I put The Birchbark House on hold. I hope it's good.

I'm just SO tired of talking about racism with students. At one point, I stopped hounding on the evils of racism, and focused on discussing human rights violations as a whole. But now I don't even want to talk about human rights violations.

Humans are amazingly good, but also amazingly horrible. I just get tired of talking about it. Tired, tired, tired. In the long run, I don't think all this talk changes anything.

I'm just trying to present a variety of books from different points of view, and let the authors speak for themselves, good and bad. I'm focusing on variety now, not talking. I don't want to talk anymore. I'm tired of the sound of my own voice.

 

[Hunter]

I think I have the equivalent of "donor fatigue" as reefgazer put it. I don't think these bad things are thing of the past. I'm just tired of the TALKING about it part taking up so much of my day.

 

I don't believe racism is over or that it doesn't hurt. I think other forms of prejudices and human rights violations are just as harmful and common, though. Life is sad and bad. People are stupid and mean way more than I am comfortable acknowledging every minute of the day. It makes my PTSD worse to just wallow nonstop in the nastiness. I need sometimes to accept it, and just try to let some of it roll over me, like water off a duck's back.

 

I was with a friend the other day that referred to woman walking in front of us as "waddling" and I almost started crying. That was prejudice and it was mean and it was wrong. And that woman suffers every day from prejudices that I don't suffer from just because I'm too poor to have enough food and a car that would allow me to put on the weight she carried. If she had been a man my friend wouldn't have used the word "waddled". This woman suffers from prejudices against her gender and her weight, that I'm sure affect here entire life.

 

I just remained silent, but I felt less safe after that comment. The friend I was with felt less safe to be around. I felt less safe in the world in general just being a woman.

 

I stopped in Barnes and Nobles the other day, after a bunch of other errands, carrying several bags. The security guard for some reason decided to target me as some sort of risk. He backed off before I even knew fully what he was thinking and wanting, because I BLASTED him the way my wealthy British grandmother would have. I'm not even sure what got into me, but I was SO mad. I have spent WAY too much money in that store to be treated like that. It was the bags though, that I think made him target me. He just ASSUMED something, and thought he had the right to chase me out of the store.

 

Racism is bad. Very bad. I'm just too tired to make it my #1 fight in life. I'm juggling too many other fights, and don't have the resources to make it my MISSION.

[FO4UR]

I talk about it.  LH books make a good gentle discussion point.  Kids are able to understand how people are capable of being largely good while believing and doing some bad things.

 

We should always try to see things from others' perspectives and err on the side of kindness and generosity.  Those are the lessons I pull from LH.

[Cricket]

I put The Birchbark House on hold. I hope it's good.

 

I'm just SO tired of talking about racism with students. At one point, I stopped hounding on the evils of racism, and focused on discussing human rights violations as a whole. But now I don't even want to talk about human rights violations.

 

Humans are amazingly good, but also amazingly horrible. I just get tired of talking about it. Tired, tired, tired. In the long run, I don't think all this talk changes anything.

 

I'm just trying to present a variety of books from different points of view, and let the authors speak for themselves, good and bad. I'm focusing on variety now, not talking. I don't want to talk anymore. I'm tired of the sound of my own voice.

I think it does but I think it takes a l-o-n-g time.  Sometimes we think change should happen quickly and maybe it should but it just doesn't.  We can get a revelation one day and make changes in our own lives but it usually doesn't happen that way in societies.  It takes generations.  I don't mind the talking.  For me, I think it's the daily, absolute outrage that exhausts me.  We are supposed to be outraged about everything all the time.  I don't think anyone can sustain that.

[UncleEJ]

What about reading Louise Erdrich's series as well? The first one is called "The Birchbark House." It covers the same general slice of history, but from the Native American perspective.

What ages might these be good for as a read aloud? We are currently going through the LH books. I read some of the Goodreads reviews but I couldn't tell if these would be above my oldest DS head.

[mamaraby]

What ages might these be good for as a read aloud? We are currently going through the LH books. I read some of the Goodreads reviews but I couldn't tell if these would be above my oldest DS head.

I haven't read it to my kids yet, but it's on my list of read alouds for the next year. My oldest is 9 and I think he could easily read it on his own, but I tend to be looser with these sorts of things. Maybe your library has a copy you can read through?

 

ETA: Scholastic Book Wizard puts it as 4.9 GLE/970 Lexile and an interest level of grade 6-8, YMMV, of course.

[Tracy]

What ages might these be good for as a read aloud? We are currently going through the LH books. I read some of the Goodreads reviews but I couldn't tell if these would be above my oldest DS head.

 

I read the entire series to my dd when she was about 7yo.  I think the last 2 were a little over her head in places (the dating and marriage stuff), but she loved them anyway.  

[Bayt ul-Hikmah]

Yes, exactly! I read these books (on my own) when I was a girl, and only took from them the little girl's perspective -- the pioneer story, the home life, the fiddle music, the grasshopper plague, the hard work, the way work was done back in the "old days."

 

These books were read to me when I was young, and I also just took the little girl's perspective. However, reading them aloud now as an adult, to my brown children, they give me pause. For me, the Native American issue is one that lends itself to discussion easily not only because it is discussed in the book itself but because settlement *of previously occupied land* is essentially the theme of the series, of the Ingalls' lives. Those historical issues are easier for me than the easy use of offensive language. Sweet sweet Pa singing songs about darkies?! (I'm not even going to address the minstrel shows!) What?! I just wish those things weren't there. It wouldn't make any sense to tell Laura's story without addressing the "Indian issue" and surrounding attitudes, ideas, biases, etc. However, of all the fiddle tunes Pa played, why include this one? Clearly no one thought it a problem to include them. The song lyrics really caught me off guard as I was reading aloud to my two boys.  Yes, they could be discussed, but it's just such a random occurrence in Little House in the Big Woods. Now, do my boys identify with Laura? Or do they see the only mention of people "like them" talked about disparagingly, and is that what they take away from these books? Probably the former, but I don't really know. I think it was easy for my parents to tell little white me that "darkies" is an offensive term that people used a long time ago but oh we don't do that anymore. It is an entirely different conversation with kids of color, particularly emotionally. But, I don't think it should be. I think it should be devastating for all of us. I think that in my family, these are either read-together books or read when older books. I'm not one to cast aside books for these issues, but I also wouldn't want very young children (my boys are avid, early readers) to pick these up and tackle them alone. 

[Hunter]

I really hate Pa's fiddle songs!

 

The first time I read aloud a fiddle song, not being prepared for it, I froze and started crying. I did NOT remember that being there! As a child, I was just so conditioned not to think much about that kind of stuff. I heard worse all the time. It was just the way it was, in the 2 countries I was living in.

 

The reaction my adult African American student had, was the same one I had as a child. It's just the way that it is. She asked me to knock it off and get on with the story. She resented dwelling on it more than the inevitable references.

 

Living a life of constant outrage and extreme avoidance of books can be more damaging and narrow than being exposed to the evil of man's heart.

 

My choice to not let prejudices rule my life, doesn't mean I don't think they are awful. They are awful, but they are unavoidable. If I try really hard, I can partially avoid prejudices of lighter skinned peoples against darker skinned peoples. but it is impossible to avoid all prejudices.

[Hunter]

I just got a notice from the library that a copy of Birchbark House is waiting for me. I'm anxious to pick it up tomorrow and read it.

[Sahamamama]

These books were read to me when I was young, and I also just took the little girl's perspective. However, reading them aloud now as an adult, to my brown children, they give me pause. For me, the Native American issue is one that lends itself to discussion easily not only because it is discussed in the book itself but because settlement *of previously occupied land* is essentially the theme of the series, of the Ingalls' lives. Those historical issues are easier for me than the easy use of offensive language. Sweet sweet Pa singing songs about darkies?! (I'm not even going to address the minstrel shows!) What?! I just wish those things weren't there. It wouldn't make any sense to tell Laura's story without addressing the "Indian issue" and surrounding attitudes, ideas, biases, etc. However, of all the fiddle tunes Pa played, why include this one? Clearly no one thought it a problem to include them. The song lyrics really caught me off guard as I was reading aloud to my two boys.  Yes, they could be discussed, but it's just such a random occurrence in Little House in the Big Woods. Now, do my boys identify with Laura? Or do they see the only mention of people "like them" talked about disparagingly, and is that what they take away from these books? Probably the former, but I don't really know. I think it was easy for my parents to tell little white me that "darkies" is an offensive term that people used a long time ago but oh we don't do that anymore. It is an entirely different conversation with kids of color, particularly emotionally. But, I don't think it should be. I think it should be devastating for all of us. I think that in my family, these are either read-together books or read when older books. I'm not one to cast aside books for these issues, but I also wouldn't want very young children (my boys are avid, early readers) to pick these up and tackle them alone. 

 

My husband is quite dark (Middle Eastern), while I am as white as a marshmallow. Our children are nutty brown. I agree with you, I wouldn't want to hand the LH books over to the girls (or lots of other books I could name).

 

Instead, we read together. We talk about the easy use of pejorative terms, in part because of the fact that those terms were so easily used. This speaks a great deal to the entrenchment of the prejudice in that time, and begs the question, "What are our prejudices? How would we know?"

 

How can I best teach my nutty brown daughters what I believe about calling people "darkies?" It galls me, to be sure. A part of me just wants to throw the book in the fireplace, another part of me says to let the book speak.

 

We have chosen to let the books speak. We read all of it, including the outright expressions of racism (e.g., "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." :huh: ). It is devastating, that there was ever a time when the Middle Passage, slavery, minstrel shows, songs about "darkies," reservations, broken promises, and more were a normal, accepted part of American life. But these things really were so.

 

I wish those things were not in our history. But since they are in our actual history, I'm glad they're in the stories that Laura wrote.

 

Without doubt, forced resettlement, slavery, and racism were devastating for the people who experienced them firsthand. We are only outsiders looking into that passed-away world. We can try to put ourselves in their shoes for a time, but our vantage point is one of relative stability and security. We're not traveling back in time to increase our factual knowledge. That may or may not occur. I'm growing hearts here, mine included.