S/O of Hits and Misses: "School is boring"

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ok, so I just did a "student teacher conference" with my 2nd grader, and it turns out she finds almost everything we're doing boring.  :sad:

 

How do you deal with it when your kid says this?  Do you say "suck it up, buttercup" or do you bend over backwards to try and make it more interesting? Or something in between.

 

Here's the thing:  I feel like some things just have to be done.  Not a lot of things at this age, but math, writing/spelling are definitely on that list.  We work on those things every day, I try to make it as efficient as possible, it does't take a lot of time.

 

Morgan wants to do "fun stuff" - she wants to play games, do projects and activities.  I just got her some Magic Schoolbus science kits, and she's enraptured.  She loves history, loves it when I read aloud.  

 

The problem is I have a 6th grader who takes a lot of my time.  So I focus on the "must-dos" with Morgan, and I feel like we don't have enough time for the fun stuff.  Well, obviously we don't have enough time for the fun stuff, or she wouldn't be bored.

But I'm not sure what to do?  Do I try and find more fun ways to do the basics? Or do I just keep doing the basics (boringly) and try and carve out more time for the fun?

 

I don't really know what I'm asking here exactly.  She's 7, so sending her off on her own to do projects isn't feasible.  Everything she wants to do takes my time, and I'm feeling like my head is about to explode already. 

 

It just makes me feel really sad that she's bored.   :(

[Roadrunner]

Your second grader would really like my second grader. I am so tired of rolling eyes. I chose very teacher intensive curriculum (worksheets aren't our thing) and it's almost impossible to send off my older one for independent work, leaving little alone time with my younger. I know my kids are so close in age, but the gap in maturity and ability is huge, making it hard to combine subjects. My younger feels inadequate next to his brother in subjects that we do manage to combine.

He hates WWE and hates LOE, the basis of his language arts work. I know he would love to do some art and play games, but I simply don't have time for it. " Suck it up, buttercup," pretty much sums up my attitude right now, but I would like to find ways to get him more engaged. I think dumping WWE and LOE when we are finished with these programs is going to be my first step. I want to set up a computer station and allow him to play math games online as rewards for tasks completed. He used to love computer time at his PS. Hopefully starting MCT next year will make English hour more fun (although I have no idea how to fit teaching MCT to two kids at the same). I don't have solutions, but I am commiserating. Some days I fantasize sending my younger back to school.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Wow, Roadrunner, you are channeling my thoughts exactly!!  

 

Sadly, Morgan finds Grammar Island boring.  :huh:  I'm thinking of dropping it and going on to Sentence Island.  If she finds that boring, I may just give up.

 

Is there a "fun" grammar?

[alisoncooks]

I generally fall in the suck-it-up camp.  Most of 2nd grade is still challenging:  learning to read and write well is hard work.  Physically demanding work.  And every subjects requires you to use those doggone-difficult skills.

 

I've found it helpful to add in unrelated-to-school, seasonal crafts.  Pinterest is my friend.  I do it on a monthly basis; January we did a few different art projects that focused on snow, snowmen.  We read Ezra Jack Keats "Snowy Day" and made an art project based on it.  We cut out snowflakes.   Read a hot chocolate themed book, make hot chocolate from scratch.  (You get the picture....)

 

No more than 1-2 projects/activities a week, depending on how involved.  We hang any art projects around our work area/house.  Makes the day *feel* more fun... even if during our "normal" school hours we're still trudging through the same old, same old. :)

 

ETA:  I'm sure some people look at the above and think:  that's just being a mom.

Well, fine....But I need to actually plan these things to be that fun mom, LOL.

[alisoncooks]

And as far as fun grammar goes, we're about to start Sentence Family and Ruth Hellers "world of language" books.  Your DD is probably beyond that, if she's been using MCT products, though...

[Roadrunner]

Wow, Roadrunner, you are channeling my thoughts exactly!!

 

Sadly, Morgan finds Grammar Island boring. :huh: I'm thinking of dropping it and going on to Sentence Island. If she finds that boring, I may just give up.

 

Is there a "fun" grammar?

I warned my kiddo he had to survive Grammar Island before meeting Mud. :)

I think it's as much fun as it gets, but surprisingly, my kid liked Daily Paragraph Editing. He thought it was fun marking other people's mistakes.

How is Beast Academy working out for her?

[Mrs Twain]

I am in the suck it up crowd regarding the 3 R's.  I don't care that it is not fun, but these subjects have to be done daily and done well. 

 

Otherwise as already mentioned, you can add a few fun items, such as science or art.  Could you find a DVD art program, fill a box with all necessary supplies, and have her do it sort of independently?  How about Mark Kistler online drawing lessons?  Once the lesson is started, that is independent.  Just sit your child in front of the computer with drawing pencils and paper.  How about activity books?  Color by number, mazes, crafty ones, etc.  How about logic/puzzle books? 

 

You could also easily add lapbooks coordinated with whatever you are studying in history, civics, or science.  They are very useful for retention of knowledge of these subjects.  Just print the whole thing out ahead of time, and each day give her once piece to finish.  Hands of a Child has a limitless number of high quality ones.

 

How about making a workbook segment of your day?  There are many quality workbooks she could do independently which would solidify her skills.  Geography, grammar, math, spelling, vocabulary, penmanship, etc.  Some kids like workbooks. 

[Farrar]

My kids really dislike Mud.  So that may not do it.  I don't think grammar is a must at this age.  My kids found Grammarland to be fun grammar.  Or you could just wait few years.  Math, spelling and writing are our musts.  When they were younger, so was reading and handwriting.

 

I think it's important to respond to you kids and show them that you're listening and trying to help.  On the other hand, I don't think anyone has to make school fun, fun, fun all day.

[73349]

How long are your lessons? Can you change things up more?

[Lori D.]

Our 2 DSs needed loads of 1-on-1 for years (each for a different reason), so I feel your pain. Some possible ideas:

 

- schedule a second session of 30 minutes after lunch to focus on DD#2 to do the fun stuff (since you've completed the "boring" stuff quickly and efficiently already in the morning) -- meanwhile, DD#1 could sometimes be included by playing the game with you both, or doing a similar history/science project at her own grade level so you're all socializing together while working -- OR, she could be doing her solo activity: solo reading, an educational video, practicing keyboarding or an instrument, research, etc.

 

- educational video or educational computer game for 30 minutes for one while you work with the other, then switch (obviously, different videos/games for the different ages)

 

- you have a pretty big age gap, but perhaps you can try to overlap SOME of the science and history to do together, and do related science/history activities at the same time (even if the kits are different, or the history projects are different in skill level)

 

- do regular "spine" math, spelling and grammar (the "boring" stuff) 4 days a week, and 1 day a week do it at fun supplements -- the KEY here is to do a fun supplement for a different topic EACH day, so there's always at least one fun game / video / etc. each day, it's just for a different subject

 

- have DD#2 do a solo supplement in the room with you and DD#1 -- so she's "part of the gang", but your attention is on helping DD#1, but available if DD#2 has a need or a comment

 

 

Grammar "Fun" Supplements

 

Grammar "Bite" A Day In A Fun Continuing Story (all by Jan Bell Kiester):
- Putrescent Petra Finds Friends (gr. 2)
- Elementary, My Dear! (gr. 1-3)

- Juan & Marie Join the Class (gr. 3)

 

"Fun" Instruction

- Giggly Guide to Grammar (Campbell)

- Hot Fudge Monday (Larson)

- Awesome Hands-On Activities for Teaching Grammar (Van Zile)

 

Books (gr. K-3) -- check your library
- Very Silly Sentences (by DK Publishing)
- Noun Hounds and Other Great Grammar Games (by Lorraine Egan)
- A Mink, A Fink, a Skating Rink: What is a Noun? (by Brian Cleary)
- A Lime, A Mime, a Pool of Slime: More About Nouns (by Brian Cleary)
- To Root, to Toot, to Parachute: What is a Verb? (by Brian Cleary)
- Slide, Slurp, Scratch and Burp: More About Verbs (by Brian Cleary)
- Hairy, Scary, Ordinary: What is an Adjective? (by Brian Cleary)
- Dearly, Nearly, Insincerely: What is an Adverb? (by Brian Cleary)
- I and You and Don't Forget Who: What is a Pronoun? (by Brian Cleary)
- Under, Over, By the Clover: What is a Preposition? (by Brian Cleary)

Activity

- Mad Libs (gr. 1-6) parts of speech
- Grammar Ad Libs (gr. 1-6) parts of speech

Video/DVD
- Schoolhouse Rock: Grammar (gr. 1-5) parts of speech
 

Free Online Games

- Punctuation Paintball (punctuation) = http://www.iknowthat...?Area=Paintball
- Grammar Gorillas (parts of speech) = http://www.funbrain.com/grammar/ -- parts of speech
- Flash Games (variety of grammar topics) = http://www.marks-eng....com/games.html
- Game Zone (variety of grammar topics) = http://www.english-o...s/gamezone2.htm
- The Teacher's Cafe (list of many resources) = http://www.theteache....mmar_Games.php
 

 

"FUN" Supplements for other subjects (can be done solo)

Have a handful of items (5-8) in a basket to choose from; rotate after a week, with either all new, or replace half, and then the following week replace the remaining half, so items are at most in the basket for 3 weeks -- then bring them back in the next quarter and rotate them through again...

 

Language Arts Computer Games

Schoolhouse Rock: Grammar

The Learning Company: ClueFinder (by grade) -- multiple school subjects

Knowledge Adventure: Jump Start ____ Grade -- multiple school subjects

Knowledge Adventure: Jump Start Spelling

The Learning Company: Super Solvers: Spellbound

Knowledge Adventure: Reading Blaster

The Learning Company: Word Munchers

 

Math Computer Games

Schoolhouse Rock: Math

EduMark: Mighty Math series

The Learning Company: Number Munchers

Knowledge Adventure: Math Blasters

 

Logic Computer Games

Operation Neptune (age 9-12)

Logical Journey of the Zoombinis (age 8+)

Crazy Machines: Wacky Contraptions Game

Sierra: Incredible Machine

 

Solo Logic Activities

- Rush Hour Junior

- Tangrams / Tangoes

 

Solo Math Activities

- Cuisenaire Rods and matching learning booklet

- Pattern Blocks and matching learning booklet 

- Geoboards and matching learning booklet

 

Solo Reading

- read for 30 minutes from a book basket selection

- listen to a book on tape (with headphones on)

 

Solo Art

- have a bin of craft suppllies, small kits, and idea booklets to choose from

- stained glass coloring book and markers (could match your History or Science topic)

 

Solo History / Science

- educational video from the library

- educational website on the topic currently studied

 

 

PS -- ETA in response to your further post re: DD

Regarding the arguing about everything... my DS#2 was very oppositional and strong-willed (don't know if that is exactly what your DD#2 is like), but I found that some of the Cynthia Tobias tips on how to handle a strong-willed child helped a lot -- just in the way I worded things. (You might find this book by her more helpful, if it's not strong-willedness.)

 

For example, as much as possible, giving him a choice helped. Rather than say, "It's time for math", give a choice: "So, which did you want to do first today: math or spelling or grammar?" (Honestly, it didn't matter to me -- it all got done! -- but having a sense of input was VERY important to DS.)

 

Reflective listening can sometimes deflect argument, esp. if we're talking school/learning things. For example, if I would say something from the science we were learning, and DS#2 would throw out an exception or "I don't think so, I've seen this" kind of argument, I'd try not to engage/get locked into argument. If possible, I'd try for:

"So you're saying this ________? I never thought of it in that way before."

"Wow, that's interesting! So you're thinking this _______? Why is that?"

"Hey, that would be an interesting question to test; how might we research that or experiment to see for ourselves?"

 

A lot depends on why she argues all the time:

- emotional/relational needs: Is it trying to get attention? Feeling left out? Not feeling "heard" or validated? Locked in a "negative" communication cycle with you?

- personality related: Oppositional personality? Naturally "negative" in outlook?

- biological basis: Hormonal / sleep deprived / other biological reason and it comes out as aggression or arguing?

 

Hopefully you'll be able to take a step back from the arguing cycle, and take an objective look at what's going on (maybe have a close friend you trust observe and give input) to pinpoint possible cause, and try addressing it.

 

For us, I worked a lot of angles with DS, which did help a bit, but in the end, maturity (i.e., him growing up) was probably what helped the most. I just always worked hard to keep relationship and communication open and honest, and he could see that, so he knew *I* was not just being oppositional. ;) BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

 

[Mrs Twain]

One more thing--

 

My kids think Duolingo is fun, especially since I take them out for frozen yogurt every time they accomplish a 35-day streak.  It is free. 

www.duolingo.com

[Chrysalis Academy]

These are great ideas, thank you all.  I will come back and pore through them in detail later on.  Meanwhile, we had a huge heart-to-heart and it has helped me to see that there is more going on here than schoolwork issues.  In a nutshell, she is feeling compared to her sister and that she's getting the short end of the stick.  I think a lot of it is very normal younger child stuff, who watches their older sib be more competent, have more freedom and responsibility, and maybe even get more attention (at least measured in my time spent on school) and who feels like it isn't fair.  In her case this is exacerbated by the very, very different temperments of the two girls - my older one is an easy, happy, sunny child who does whatever I ask, eats whatever I cook, and generally doesn't complain about anything.  Morgan is just the complete opposite, and hence has been much more . . .  challenging. . . to parent.

 

While I don't feel like I consciusly compare them, and I don't favor one over the other, I do deal with them differently as a function of their very different personalities.  With Shannon there is pretty much zero conflict.  With Morgan there is some level of conflict (not fighting or yelling conflict, but disagreements that have to be worked out) on a daily basis.  So  I can see why she is interpreting the difference in our interactions the way she is.  I feel bad about that, but I don't know exactly how to change things, because the fact is she argues with me All. The. Time.  

 

Anyway, clearly I have something to work on, but I'm very glad we got some open lines of communication.  I need to think on this whole thing very hard.

[pitterpatter]

What about a Fun Friday each week or two? Or, a Fun Week once a month? We're doing a Fun Week once a month. It's something I scheduled in at the beginning of the year because I didn't want DD to miss out on all of the fun stuff there is for her age. We still do LA and math (and short history lessons to stay on schedule) that week, but I drop science and Spanish. Instead, we play LA games that review what DD's learned thus far. I also rotate in literature, logic and art (and Girl Scouts sometimes...we earn patches at home). We don't study literature, logic and art any other time. (Well, that's not entirely true...sometimes, I throw in logic on short days.)

 

We use products like these during Fun Week. Atelier for art (because I find I can only handle real art once a month).

 

  

 

http://bluehouseschool.blogspot.com/search/label/Fun%20Weeks - Unfortunately, I had planned to document all of our Fun Weeks, but have been swamped with blog posts this year. I've only managed to post one.

 

Choose a subject and search for freebies on Teachers Pay Teachers. There are lots of things like what is in the books I posted above. I just use those to save time. There are others I use as well. We also plan language arts and math board games on occasion.

 

Overall, I do try to choose curriculum that fits DD's personality and learning style. I would switch things that are a drag.

 

ETA: If she's feeling left out, maybe you can schedule things where the focus is more on your younger DD on Fridays or something.

[JRmommy]

I have a similar issue. I don't get to spend as much time as I would like with my 7 year old because I have an 18 month old that is a little firecracker. I always envisioned our homeschool to be a school of discovery, challenge and fun! But, honestly, we have just been doing the basics until last month. I added typing (BBC Dance mat typing - online and free) and Duolingo (foreign language free app). We also started doing a more formal science program. He loves science and we read lots of science books, but we haven't really done many experiments because it is just so difficult with my 18 month old running around. I appreciate the ideas given already. I really like the idea of doing a Fun Friday or a Fun Week. It gives me something to think about and plan accordingly.

[Roadrunner]

If you successfully work out the schedule, please share. I am really struggling with juggling both of my kiddos.

 

My younger most definitely feels inferior to his brother who just seems to excel at anything he picks. At school DS7 was the youngest one excelling at everything. At home, he is struggling to keep up. It's been a frustrating year for him. :(

[Guest]

I don't know. My kids aren't bored, but I am. :tongue_smilie: Sorry, totally hijacking, but this thread kind of hit me over the head as I'm struggling with what to do next year - it's not that things aren't working, it's that *I* am bored! Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread.... :D

[Chrysalis Academy]

And as far as fun grammar goes, we're about to start Sentence Family and Ruth Hellers "world of language" books.  Your DD is probably beyond that, if she's been using MCT products, though...

 

I've thought of Sentence Family, but I'm so leary of buying something else, given how poorly I've pegged what would interest her so far. . . 

 

She really wants to work together on stuff - she likes working together, she says she loves how I teach her but finds the books boring.  So, she would love to spend all day "working" on stuff.  And she wants to play games and do projects - with me.  But you know what? There is only one of me.  Less than one, some days. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I warned my kiddo he had to survive Grammar Island before meeting Mud. :)

I think it's as much fun as it gets, but surprisingly, my kid liked Daily Paragraph Editing. He thought it was fun marking other people's mistakes.

How is Beast Academy working out for her?

 

It's ok.  She likes variety, so she likes it for a change for sure.  She loves the game parts of it, not so much the deep thinking parts, but that's a work in progress.  She really doesn't mind MM, surprisingly enough, as I find that the most boring program on earth.  Effective, but boring.  Math is actually working fine right now, we're about to finish MM2 and then we'll delve into BA more deeply.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I am in the suck it up crowd regarding the 3 R's.  I don't care that it is not fun, but these subjects have to be done daily and done well. 

 

Otherwise as already mentioned, you can add a few fun items, such as science or art.  Could you find a DVD art program, fill a box with all necessary supplies, and have her do it sort of independently?  How about Mark Kistler online drawing lessons?  Once the lesson is started, that is independent.  Just sit your child in front of the computer with drawing pencils and paper.  How about activity books?  Color by number, mazes, crafty ones, etc.  How about logic/puzzle books? 

 

You could also easily add lapbooks coordinated with whatever you are studying in history, civics, or science.  They are very useful for retention of knowledge of these subjects.  Just print the whole thing out ahead of time, and each day give her once piece to finish.  Hands of a Child has a limitless number of high quality ones.

 

How about making a workbook segment of your day?  There are many quality workbooks she could do independently which would solidify her skills.  Geography, grammar, math, spelling, vocabulary, penmanship, etc.  Some kids like workbooks. 

 

These are good ideas.  Money is an issue, so I'll have to look at the costs for things like online lessons.  She has a history of getting excited with things initially, then deciding they are boring after a short while, and I can't invest in a bunch of things and have her want to drop them after two weeks.

 

She does love dot to dots and other activity books.  Logic puzzle books are a really good idea.  Sometimes she really digs workbooks.  What are some of the most engaging workbooks you like for this level?  I get so overwhelmed when I start workbook shopping, and then there's the money issue again . . . 

[Chrysalis Academy]

My kids really dislike Mud.  So that may not do it.  I don't think grammar is a must at this age.  My kids found Grammarland to be fun grammar.  Or you could just wait few years.  Math, spelling and writing are our musts.  When they were younger, so was reading and handwriting.

 

I think it's important to respond to you kids and show them that you're listening and trying to help.  On the other hand, I don't think anyone has to make school fun, fun, fun all day.

 

You are totally right.  I'm just going to drop this for now.  Math, spelling and writing are my main priorities too.  She gets lots of grammar when we dissect and analyze her copywork sentences.  I don't know why I felt the need to start her on Island.  I guess because everything she does is pretty easy for her, I was looking for a fun challenge.  But this is not turning out to be a fun challenge, so I'm just going to let it go for now.  She might enjoy it next year . . .  or she might never enjoy it.  Just because Shannon and I loved it doesn't mean she will.  Ask me how I know . . . 

[Chrysalis Academy]

How long are your lessons? Can you change things up more?

 

She does math for 45-60 min a day.  Math is not a problem, she likes it.  She likes that I'm sitting right beside her, and so I think she likes long math lessons because it means she gets my focused attention.

 

Other stuff is short and sweet - LOE for 10-15 min, writing for 10-15 min, then read alouds.  She reads on her own all day so I don't really count that in school time.

 

She hangs out frequently when Shannon and I are discussing things, but that is totally her choice.  When she does, I welcome and include her in the discussion, but I never force it.

 

History, science, reading - we do as long as she's interested, or as long as my time permits.  Usually she wants to keep going and I have to peel off - again, it's about my attention as much as engagement with the material.  She loves the content subjects, though, she just wants to add a ton of activities or games.  I just don't have time.

[Chrysalis Academy]

My son would love one project and craft after another.  I try to give him some of that, but frankly, I don't think the educational value of those things is great enough to persuade me to fill our entire days with craft projects.  And at that level even the science stuff is more like a craft project (or mess) than 'science". 

 

I dunno.  I get that from my younger son a lot too.  I'm not as interesting as Minecraft and My Little Pony though.  It is what it is.

 

My son adored Sentence Island and the characters.

 

Totally.  The perfect school day for her would be one activity or game after another, all with my attention on her . . . . 

 

I compromised my own feelings to get the Magic Schoolbus kits - I don't think they teach all that much, but they are fun fun fun! and I thought she needed something fun in her day.  I can tolerate making oobleck more than some other crafty stuff I can think of.

[pitterpatter]

I feel you. And when I get overly bored, I get nit-picky and lose my patience more easily. During some LA and math I have to get up and make tea or piddle with small chores around the house. DD does better when I'm not hovering over her shoulder. I don't rush her as much either. She's quicker too (or at least it seems like it) because she tries to beat me before I get back from whatever I'm off doing. On rare occasion, I read my Kindle while she works. I've tried getting things ready for the next day, but that distracts her.

 

We are trying a lot of new curriculum next year partly for the "I am bored" reason.

.

 

I don't know. My kids aren't bored, but I am. :tongue_smilie: Sorry, totally hijacking, but this thread kind of hit me over the head as I'm struggling with what to do next year - it's not that things aren't working, it's that *I* am bored! Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread.... :D

 

[Chelli]

You daughter sounds like a "Sociable Sue" which is the way my oldest is as well. EVERYTHING needs to be done with me or a game or a project.....you get the idea.

 

Honestly, since she was my oldest it was a lot easier because there was no one else to teach for a really long time except her, so it worked out. Now she's old enough I let her do all of that project stuff on her own.

 

I still choose curriculum that I know will involve a lot of discussion and back and forth. She thrives on that.

 

Is there any way your oldest can be more independent giving you more time to be with your 2nd grader? Or maybe promise the second grader that if she has a good attitude, then you will play an educational game with her after supper?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I did the same thing and got those same kits.  He loves them.  I can do them in my sleep and they don't require weird items so that works for me.  LOL

 

Ok, we just did the oobleck, and I gotta admit, it was fun!  ;)  :D

[Chrysalis Academy]

You daughter sounds like a "Sociable Sue" which is the way my oldest is as well. EVERYTHING needs to be done with me or a game or a project.....you get the idea.

 

Honestly, since she was my oldest it was a lot easier because there was no one else to teach for a really long time except her, so it worked out. Now she's old enough I let her do all of that project stuff on her own.

 

I still choose curriculum that I know will involve a lot of discussion and back and forth. She thrives on that.

 

Is there any way your oldest can be more independent giving you more time to be with your 2nd grader? Or maybe promise the second grader that if she has a good attitude, then you will play an educational game with her after supper?

 

 

Yes, she is a Sociable Sue.  Really the only downside of homeschooling has been that she misses her friends, and constantly wants more social outlet than I have the time/capacity to provide her.

 

Both girls are very verbal and thrive/want curriculum that is discussion based.  This is my problem - they both are happier, learn more, and are more engaged when they have my attention/involvement.  My 6th grader does a lot of reading on her own, but we also do a lot together, and every subject requires discussion/analysis - almost more now than it did before.  I'm also teaching her a lot of study skills - how to read and take notes from texts, lectures, etc.  So that is all extremely time-intensive.  I could easily spend 5-6 hours a day working just with her, and although Morgan can be included in some of that, lots is over her head, they are 4 grades apart.  So add 2 hours a day for must-dos with Mo, and there just doesn't feel like a lot of time for the games and stuff that she wants to do.

 

Today is a great example - we lost time because of the melt-down and heart to heart, but we did math for an hour, a pretty long and intense writing lesson, I read aloud lit to both of them, and she did a fun project in science.  We haven't done spelling yet, and it's 3:00, and I haven't done English with Shannon yet . . . . I just can't get it all done in one day, it feels like.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Our 2 DSs needed loads of 1-on-1 for years (each for a different reason), so I feel your pain. Some possible ideas:

 

- schedule a second session of 30 minutes after lunch to focus on DD#2 to do the fun stuff (since you've completed the "boring" stuff quickly and efficiently already in the morning) -- meanwhile, DD#1 could sometimes be included by playing the game with you both, or doing a similar history/science project at her own grade level so you're all socializing together while working -- OR, she could be doing her solo activity: solo reading, an educational video, practicing keyboarding or an instrument, research, etc.

 

- educational video or educational computer game for 30 minutes for one while you work with the other, then switch (obviously, different videos/games for the different ages)

 

- you have a pretty big age gap, but perhaps you can try to overlap SOME of the science and history to do together, and do related science/history activities at the same time (even if the kits are different, or the history projects are different in skill level)

 

- do regular "spine" math, spelling and grammar (the "boring" stuff) 4 days a week, and 1 day a week do it at fun supplements -- the KEY here is to do a fun supplement for a different topic EACH day, so there's always at least one fun game / video / etc. each day, it's just for a different subject

 

- have DD#2 do a solo supplement in the room with you and DD#1 -- so she's "part of the gang", but your attention is on helping DD#1, but available if DD#2 has a need or a comment

 

 

 

PS -- ETA in response to your further post re: DD

Regarding the arguing about everything... my DS#2 was very oppositional and strong-willed (don't know if that is exactly what your DD#2 is like), but I found that some of the Cynthia Tobias tips on how to handle a strong-willed child helped a lot -- just in the way I worded things. (You might find this book by her more helpful, if it's not strong-willedness.)

 

For example, as much as possible, giving him a choice helped. Rather than say, "It's time for math", give a choice: "So, which did you want to do first today: math or spelling or grammar?" (Honestly, it didn't matter to me -- it all got done! -- but having a sense of input was VERY important to DS.)

 

Reflective listening can sometimes deflect argument, esp. if we're talking school/learning things. For example, if I would say something from the science we were learning, and DS#2 would throw out an exception or "I don't think so, I've seen this" kind of argument, I'd try not to engage/get locked into argument. If possible, I'd try for:

"So you're saying this ________? I never thought of it in that way before."

"Wow, that's interesting! So you're thinking this _______? Why is that?"

"Hey, that would be an interesting question to test; how might we research that or experiment to see for ourselves?"

 

A lot depends on why she argues all the time:

- emotional/relational needs: Is it trying to get attention? Feeling left out? Not feeling "heard" or validated? Locked in a "negative" communication cycle with you?

- personality related: Oppositional personality? Naturally "negative" in outlook?

- biological basis: Hormonal / sleep deprived / other biological reason and it comes out as aggression or arguing?

 

Hopefully you'll be able to take a step back from the arguing cycle, and take an objective look at what's going on (maybe have a close friend you trust observe and give input) to pinpoint possible cause, and try addressing it.

 

For us, I worked a lot of angles with DS, which did help a bit, but in the end, maturity (i.e., him growing up) was probably what helped the most. I just always worked hard to keep relationship and communication open and honest, and he could see that, so he knew *I* was not just being oppositional. ;) BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

 

 

Thanks, Lori D., and for all the resources, too.  I do juggle them as efficiently as I can, and combine when possible.  Part of the pressure I feel is that I only work with them 4 days a week, I have to work on Fridays so I leave them a list of independent work to do.  My 6th grader can do a full day's work on her own,  my 2nd grader not so much, it's mostly busywork-feeling stuff, so finding a few good workbooks or things like that would improve the "quality" of her Fridays.  But since I already only teach 4 days a week, it's hard for me to take a day to do just fun stuff, KWIM?  

 

It's hard for me to paint an accurate picture of this dd's personality.  She actually isn't oppositional or defiant, and we don't "argue" because I don't argue . . . meaning she argues, or objects, or whatever, but I don't engage with that.  I do listen, and I"m willing to be flexible if she makes a good point, but I also have no trouble putting my foot down when I need to. So I don't think we're in a negative communication pattern or anything.  Like I said, when we work together it's pretty great.  

 

She's just . . .  contrary.  She wants the opposite of what everyone else wants.  She doesn't like the foods the rest of us like, she doesn't want to hike or do outdoor stuff when we do, she just seems to need to distinguish herself by not being like the rest of us.  I don't know if that's an oppositional personality or just a need to stand out or distinguish herself from her big sister.  She definitely has a more negative/sensitive/glass half empty personality, which she gets from me -  :glare: her sister and dad are much more positive in outlook.  She worries about things more, she gets stressed out by conflict, she does want to please but at the same time she wants to be her own self, so she's always fighting herself as much as fighting the rest of us.  She's a wonderful small person, and some of the traits that make her challenging to parent will serve her well if I can manage not to mess her up too badly in the meantime - I think I will get that second book you recommended, it sounds like it might help.

 

An example that occurs to me that might help explain something about her.  My older child never, ever had a single temper tantrum.  This child had tantrums every day from 18 months to 3 1/2.  Every. Day.  And you know what? They never worked.  Not once.  We never gave in to a tantrum, never changed a decision, never pandered.  I have picked up a screaming child and walked out of restaurants, libraries, stores, you name it.  It bought her nothing.  But - she did it for 3 years.  It's like she couldn't get out of her own way.  Then she finally just stopped - I don't know what happened, if she got mature enough, enough impulse control, or what, but she just stopped having tantrums.  We didn't do anything different that I can put my finger on, she finally just . . . stopped.  On her own.

 

Same thing with bed-wetting.  Older was fully potty trained by 2 1/2.  This child wet the bed till she was 7.  Not every night, but pretty darn often.  Nothing we tried seemed to work or help.  Then she just . . . stopped.

 

She's hard to figure out. For herself, as well as me.  :huh:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

An example that occurs to me that might help explain something about her.  My older child never, ever had a single temper tantrum.  This child had tantrums every day from 18 months to 3 1/2.  Every. Day.  And you know what? They never worked.  Not once.  We never gave in to a tantrum, never changed a decision, never pandered.  I have picked up a screaming child and walked out of restaurants, libraries, stores, you name it.  It bought her nothing.  But - she did it for 3 years.  It's like she couldn't get out of her own way.  Then she finally just stopped - I don't know what happened, if she got mature enough, enough impulse control, or what, but she just stopped having tantrums.  We didn't do anything different that I can put my finger on, she finally just . . . stopped.  On her own.

 

You forgot to mention taking a screaming 5 or 6 year old out of the gem and mineral show--oh wait that was us.  I can so relate to the above. I have vivid images etched in my mind of many occasions.

 

:grouphug:

 

No advice. Just wanted to say you are not alone with that part! So glad they stopped for both of us!!

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

So we went to the local toy store today and I let Morgan pick out some stuff that she would find fun to do on her own while I"m busy with Shannon - she picked out Mad Libs, Word Search, a hidden picture book, and a Logic book, and she also wanted her very own locking diary.  We also stopped at the grocery store so she could pick out some Mom-accepted, healthy snacks so that she could fix herself something to eat when she doesn't like what I cook (whole 'nother thread topic  :lol: ).

 

Hopefully she is feeling heard and respected.  I know I am.  Thanks, guys!

[Dramorellis]

I don't have much to add other than for me if I try to fit the fun stuff in after, then it simply won't get done. So art, projects, science experiments get done first thing in the morning to start our school day. It makes the rest of the day much easier.  

[Alice]

The only thing I have to add is that I also have a 7 year old 2nd grader and I think at least part of it is the age. I think 7 is just a bit of a "woe is me" kind of age and if you have a kid that has that kind of personality it's even worse. I have several friends with 7 year olds and they ALL are going through this same thing which if helpful for me to hear. 

 

My son "hates" school and says it's boring also. Mostly I just tell him he has to do it. I have tried to make small changes to show him that I care about his feelings. He loves art, it's his absolute favorite subject so dh does art with him weekly. Spelling was driving him to tears so we just dropped it for the rest of this year. He's an ok speller for his age and we might pick it up again next year but dropping that one hated subject went a long way to helping with his attitude. 

 

My oldest son was also like that at age 7. I asked him recently if he remembered hating school and the conversation was something like this:

Me: "C do you remember when you hated school?"

C: " Yep."

Me "Do you still hate it?"

C: "Nope. There's stuff I don't like and stuff I do." 

Me: "What do you like?"

C: "Math, Latin, History, Science"

Me: "And what you don't like?"

C: "Grammar and writing."

Me: "But you don't complain about the stuff you don't like anymore."

C: "No because I know I have to do and it's just easier to get it done. Plus, it would get boring if we didn't do any school." Pause "Unless you wanted to just let me read all day." 

 

I really appreciated his insight and it helped me to realize that just because H. says he hates school now doesn't mean he'll feel that way forever. 

 

I also have found with all my kids that going on special date or outing with me can often help when they are feeling out of sorts. It doesn't have to be anything huge, sometimes just a trip to McD's or pizza. Or just for a walk or bike ride (when the weather is better). But just that one on one time helps. The key though is that I purposefully don't talk about whatever has been going wrong. We just hang out, talk about other stuff, have fun. But I don't address issues during that special time. 

 

I also have a 5th grader and my plan for next year is to have him do a much more unstructured reading year, partially so that I can focus more on my middle son, who I think does get the short end of the stick too often. Oldest will do Math and Latin and then for everything else I think he'll read and write about what he reads. 

[lewelma]

Rose, I have not read all these posts, but something has stood out to me for a few months about your posts. It appears to me (clearly, an outsider) that you just honestly enjoy and get excited about the new stuff you are teaching to Shannon. You are learning with her things like math (wow!!), and you are doing heaps of planning of complicated subjects like writing (your S&S is amazing). Also, she has moved into the logic stage so that your conversations with her are just so cool and interesting now. And my impression is that you are a lot like me, and find the younger dd and the stuff that she has to learn to be, well, just boring in comparison to the older dd's work. My guess is that without meaning to you have accidentally oozed 'this is boring" on to Morgan, and she has picked up on it.

 

Now, I could be totally wrong, and I am not at all slinging mud (because both my dh and I have been in your shoes), but I think that *you* need to find it somewhere in yourself to truly enjoy teaching Morgan. Perhaps you need to spice it up and teach Morgan something that you have never taught Shannon - like latin (this is what I am doing), or philosophy (this is what my dh is doing), etc. And make it your special time - time with Morgan alone even if Shannon wants to join in because she does not know the topic. Also, it needs to be something that *you* want to learn, so that it is not just about you giving giving giving, but instead about sharing the joy of learning.

 

Hopefully, this is not totally off base, and if it is, obviously, just ignore me because I think you are doing a great job.

 

Ruth in NZ

[8filltheheart]

Rose,

 

I didn't read all of the thread or even all of,your posts, but I have a bored ,doesn't like school 2nd grader. It most definitely is a reflection of her personality in general. She is a lot like my 20 yr old dd, so it doesn't phase me in the slightest bc it is one of those mommy btdt things that I just roll my eyes back at them . ;)

 

But, 2nd grade is just not that exciting. It reminds me of a thread that quark started on the accelerated board.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/505267-whats-it-like-to-learn-math-levels-of-excellence/ They are learning a bunch of foundational skills that they have to have but they don't have enough of them mastered to put together and use them for the grand adventure yet. To use that analogy it is like learning orienteering. Learning to use a compass and reading maps, etc is not that engaging. But, actually using those skills for orienteering is an adventure. But, if you didn't master those basic skills first, you are going to be in trouble and struggle and (get lost in the real world ;) ) Mastering the skills is a vital piece of the big picture, but they are in the mass of pieces and aren't quite putting them altogether yet. But.....that is the basic purpose of primary grades.

 

Fwiw, my dd wants me time NOT doing school. It isn't that she wants school to be more fun, it really is that she wants mommy time to be more fun. She is perfectly content playing by herself doing arts and crafts or just playing in general. But she does want more of me. So, I have started taking time to play a couple of games just with her so that our time isn't just school time.

She likes games like chess, Othello, Mastermind, etc. Those are all great 2 player games that are enough to satisfy whatever that "need" is.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Rose, I have not read all these posts, but something has stood out to me for a few months about your posts. It appears to me (clearly, an outsider) that you just honestly enjoy and get excited about the new stuff you are teaching to Shannon. You are learning with her things like math (wow!!), and you are doing heaps of planning of complicated subjects like writing (your S&S is amazing). Also, she has moved into the logic stage so that your conversations with her are just so cool and interesting now. And my impression is that you are a lot like me, and find the younger dd and the stuff that she has to learn to be, well, just boring in comparison to the older dd's work. My guess is that without meaning to you have accidentally oozed 'this is boring" on to Morgan, and she has picked up on it.

 

Now, I could be totally wrong, and I am not at all slinging mud (because both my dh and I have been in your shoes), but I think that *you* need to find it somewhere in yourself to truly enjoy teaching Morgan. Perhaps you need to spice it up and teach Morgan something that you have never taught Shannon - like latin (this is what I am doing), or philosophy (this is what my dh is doing), etc. And make it your special time - time with Morgan alone even if Shannon wants to join in because she does not know the topic. Also, it needs to be something that *you* want to learn, so that it is not just about you giving giving giving, but instead about sharing the joy of learning.

 

Hopefully, this is not totally off base, and if it is, obviously, just ignore me because I think you are doing a great job.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Funny how someone you've never met can know you so well . . . 

 

You are right, of course.  A lot of 2nd grade work *is* boring, right?  So why should I be surprised that she finds it boring too?

 

She needs a little more time & attention from me, a little more fun stuff, and a little more time with friends . . . but she also just has to learn to spell and write and subtract.  Life is like that.  It's never all fun and games all the time.

 

I bet that if I make our "special time" not particularly academic - cooking, playing games, doing messy science things - she will be pretty well satisfied.  

 

She has decided that she now wants to learn about "Dinosaurs and their history" so maybe we can take some special time studying that together.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Rose,

 

I didn't read all of the thread or even all of,your posts, but I have a bored ,doesn't like school 2nd grader. It most definitely is a reflection of her personality in general. She is a lot like my 20 yr old dd, so it doesn't phase me in the slightest bc it is one of those mommy btdt things that I just roll my eyes back at them . ;)

 

But, 2nd grade is just not that exciting. It reminds me of a thread that quark started on the accelerated board.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/505267-whats-it-like-to-learn-math-levels-of-excellence/ They are learning a bunch of foundational skills that they have to have but they don't have enough of them mastered to put together and use them for the grand adventure yet. To use that analogy it is like learning orienteering. Learning to use a compass and reading maps, etc is not that engaging. But, actually using those skills for orienteering is an adventure. But, if you didn't master those basic skills first, you are going to be in trouble and struggle and (get lost in the real world ;) ) Mastering the skills is a vital piece of the big picture, but they are in the mass of pieces and aren't quite putting them altogether yet. But.....that is the basic purpose of primary grades.

 

Fwiw, my dd wants me time NOT doing school. It isn't that she wants school to be more fun, it really is that she wants mommy time to be more fun. She is perfectly content playing by herself doing arts and crafts or just playing in general. But she does want more of me. So, I have started taking time to play a couple of games just with her so that our time isn't just school time.

She likes games like chess, Othello, Mastermind, etc. Those are all great 2 player games that are enough to satisfy whatever that "need" is.

 

It's nice to hear this is pretty normal . . . . and yes, I think the main thing I need to do is suck it up and play more games!!  :laugh:

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

It sounds like we are having similar problems.  Our oldest children are getting much more time/energy than the youngers.  When I think back to when my oldest was in second grade or kindergarten (the ages of my other students) I had a lot more time to do the fun stuff with her.  Because she was the oldest.  And I didn't have to teach anyone else yet.  My 6yo is in great need of my time and energy right now, not necessarily because she needs more school work, but just because she needs more me.  It can be very easy to think that the oldest child is older and needs to do more work, needs more of our attention, etc.  But our youngers need us, too, in some ways even more so because they can't do as much independently and just because of where they are developmentally (needing more time, energy, interaction with mom).   I've been trying to find more things for oldest dd to do independently so that I can spend more time with the younger kids.  I (and oldest dd) prefer the teacher intensive, interactive curricula so it is hard to give some things up, but homeschooling multiple kids is a juggling act and I need to prioritize my younger kids more.

[konglish]

I just wanted to say I found this thread strangely encouraging.  I've only been homeschooling for a few months and I often struggle with how "fun" school is supposed to be.  I often wonder if we're both bored...is that a sign that homeschooling isn't for us?  Or am I not doing it right?  It is nice to know that learning the basic skills is hard work and boring and it won't always be that way. :)  Thanks! 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, we had a wonderful day today.  Chalk another one up for my parenting mantra, "Progress is not linear."

 

Morgan started the day by writing in her new diary! and working on some of her new workbooks.  Shannon was working on a complex stable-construction project using my new computer box, so I read aloud to them both so she could keep going with that.  Then Morgan and I did math, and then she wanted to work with me on her new logic workbook.  We finished Lesson 2 of W&R - love that program.  We did the next couple of science projects from her Magic Schoolbus kit.  She entertained herself with some science videos while I worked with Shannon, and played outside after lunch while I worked with Shannon again.  Then in the afternoon, I showed her something I've been working on today - a copywork book I'm making for her to use on Fridays, where each page has several sentences from a complete story, so she gets to write the whole story day-by-day.  She was so excited, she wanted to do the first one today!  I put all her independent work for tomorrow on a clipboard, and she's very excited to do it.  Anyway, it felt like a really pleasant, productive day and we are both very happy with each other.  Just thought I'd share a good day for a change!

[LaughingCat]

The way I read your posts, the time with younger child is 'get er done' so that there is enough time to do teacher intensive engaging stuff with the older child.    In which case, if I were the younger, I would be wanting what the older has too.

 

Where is the teacher intensive engaging stuff for the younger?  Where is the 'get er done' for the older so you have time for the engaging stuff for the younger? 

 

 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

The way I read your posts, the time with younger child is 'get er done' so that there is enough time to do teacher intensive engaging stuff with the older child.    In which case, if I were the younger, I would be wanting what the older has too.

 

Where is the teacher intensive engaging stuff for the younger?  Where is the 'get er done' for the older so you have time for the engaging stuff for the younger? 

 

Those are totally fair questions.  However . . . younger has shot down most of the teacher-intensive engaging stuff that I've suggested that would cover the academic goals.  The teacher-intensive engaging stuff that she wants to do is play games and cook.  And make oobleck.

 

The other way to look at it is that I do spend 100% of Morgan's school time working with her.  I spend less than 100% of Shannon's time working with her - she does have independent get 'er done stuff -  but the total time that Shannon works is 3 times longer, so the number of hours I spend working with her is larger.  (Guess who has been studying percents this week?  ;) )

 

I'm struggling with the fact that I can't teach two children, independently, the way I'd like to - which is pretty teacher intensively for most subjects.  So either I figure out a way to combine them for some things, or there are compromises.  For both of them.

[Soror]

Well, I try to make school fun and engaging but we definitely have stuff that just gets done. I also had to change things up for dd1 as she is entirely different than ds and what he loves she hates. I agree that a lot is personality (my dd1 is very *sensitive* and dramatic which makes things challenging at times!), waiting for them to get to the more interesting things and also just spending more time with them, not just more school work. As of late my ds has been sleeping in so it is good because it gives me a chance to spend time with just the girls. I was a bit aggravated but now I'm starting to think this could really work well for all of us. I think as well that it takes a bit adjusting to schooling more than one, just as it does having more than one and of course as they get older needs change and family dynamics change. It seems life is often in a state of flux here figuring out how to meet everyone's needs, while staying sane :)

[Soror]

Those are totally fair questions.  However . . . younger has shot down most of the teacher-intensive engaging stuff that I've suggested that would cover the academic goals.  The teacher-intensive engaging stuff that she wants to do is play games and cook.  And make oobleck.

 

 

I'm struggling with the fact that I can't teach two children, independently, the way I'd like to - which is pretty teacher intensively for most subjects.  So either I figure out a way to combine them for some things, or there are compromises.  For both of them.

My daughter is so similar. She seems insulted when I try to explain things to her, whereas with ds we always worked together and did intensive things she likes workbooks and prefers to be more independent. I can see as she gets older her schooling is going to be so different than ds.

[LaughingCat]

Those are totally fair questions.  However . . . younger has shot down most of the teacher-intensive engaging stuff that I've suggested that would cover the academic goals.  The teacher-intensive engaging stuff that she wants to do is play games and cook.  And make oobleck.

 

The other way to look at it is that I do spend 100% of Morgan's school time working with her.  I spend less than 100% of Shannon's time working with her - she does have independent get 'er done stuff -  but the total time that Shannon works is 3 times longer, so the number of hours I spend working with her is larger.  (Guess who has been studying percents this week?  ;) )

 

I'm struggling with the fact that I can't teach two children, independently, the way I'd like to - which is pretty teacher intensively for most subjects.  So either I figure out a way to combine them for some things, or there are compromises.  For both of them.

 

Well, I must admit I wouldn't worry about whether she shot it down or not - I would just be looking for something not 'boring'.  Not the same thing at all here - where most things would get shot down if presented as an option lol!   Definitely look at her likes to pick it - there are lots of educational games for instance. 

 

And I didn't mean to imply the time between the two should be equal or about who got 100% of Mom's time and who didn't (although a 6th grader should be able to work more independently than a 2nd grader!) -- it was really just the way you seemed to be thinking of it - as only having enough time for 'must-do's' for younger because the older needed the rest of the time for her more engaging teacher intensive stuff.   

 

Another way to look at it might be - in the 4 days when you are available -- is x hours for one and y hours for the other a fair split? If so, then make time in the x hours for more than 'must-do' - choose one less teacher intensive program for younger to make room for it, if need be.  Or if not then pick one less teacher intensive for the older and give that time to the younger.   

[8filltheheart]

Maybe it is just the way we approach things here, but everything in 2nd grade is teacher intensive.   My 2nd graders don't go off and do anything independently.  All of their work is done sitting right beside me.   But timewise, the percentage is very small compared to how much I spend with my older kids.   Technically, I probably spend way more time with my 9th grader than my 2nd grader but that is b/c my 2nd grader only does about 2 hours of work per day.   But, my 9th grader is doing over 8.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

 

 We finished Lesson 2 of W&R - love that program.

 

Quick question--which book are you using? I haven't really looked at this program closely before.

 

I'm so glad your day went well! Here's to many more as you find your way. :cheers2:

[Soror]

Maybe it is just the way we approach things here, but everything in 2nd grade is teacher intensive.   My 2nd graders don't go off and do anything independently.  All of their work is done sitting right beside me.   But timewise, the percentage is very small compared to how much I spend with my older kids.   Technically, I probably spend way more time with my 9th grader than my 2nd grader but that is b/c my 2nd grader only does about 2 hours of work per day.   But, my 9th grader is doing over 8.

I'm right there with dd the whole time but the level of involvement is still not the same as it was with ds. He needed more EF help. He wanted me to help whereas she is anxious for me to show her what to do and then do it on her own.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Quick question--which book are you using? I haven't really looked at this program closely before.

 

I'm so glad your day went well! Here's to many more as you find your way. :cheers2:

 

This is the CAP Writing & Rhetoric program - the first book, Fable.  Lily would be way beyond the first two books, (which are the only two out at this point), but it's fantastic for Morgan.  I'm so glad to have it as a complement to our regularly scheduled writing programming, which is basically lots and lots of copywork, spelling, and oral narrations.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thanks! I see now that I misread your earlier post! I thought Shannon was doing the program, so I thought I was just having trouble finding more advanced books in the series on the website.

 

Like I needed to add something else anyway. . . :tongue_smilie: