Interesting article on teaching reading in K5...

[PeterPan]

http://www.nancyebailey.com/2014/02/02/setting-children-up-to-hate-reading/   

 

Here's the chunk out of it that got me.  I had no clue what the statistics were for phonemic awareness of kids going into K5...  Makes my little boy look pretty normal, which I didn't realize!

 

Consider the February 1, 2014, headlines ofThe Oregonian: â€œToo Many Oregon Students Unready for Kindergarten State Officials Lament.â€

What is the crisis?

•  â€œThe typical Oregon kindergartner arrived at school last fall knowing only 19 capital and lower-case letters and just seven letter sounds out of at least 100 possible correct answers, the state reported Friday.â€
• “They also were shown a page with 110 letter sounds on it. The average kindergartner could pronounce just 6.7.â€
• “Gov. John Kitzhaber, in prepared remarks, called the results ‘sobering’â€â€¦
• “‘Things have changed in terms of what is expected when students start kindergarten,’ said Jada Rupley, Oregon’s early learning system director. ‘We would hope they would know most of their letters and many of their sounds.’â€

http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2014/02/too_many_oregon_students_unrea.html

Politicians, venture philanthropists, and even the President, make early learning into an emergency. What’s a poor kindergartener or preschooler to do when they must carry the weight of the nation on their backs—when every letter and pronunciation is scrutinized like never before?

Unfortunately, many kindergarten teachers have bought into this harmful message. Many have thrown out their play kitchens, blocks, napping rugs, and doll houses believing it is critical that children should learn to read in kindergarten!

A new study through the University of Virginia has determined that kindergarten is the new first grade! The study, by Bassok and Rorem, from the University of Virginia’s Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, “used two large nationally representative datasets to track changes in kindergarten classrooms between 1998 and 2006.†They found “that in 1998, 31 percent of kindergarten teachers indicated that most children should learn to read while in kindergarten. By 2006, 65 percent of teachers agreed with this statement. To accommodate this new reality, classroom time spent on literacy rose by 25 percent, from roughly 5.5 to seven hours per week.â€

http://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-researchers-find-kindergarten-new-first-grade.

What’s wrong with these high-stress pictures?

There is a mistaken idea of what young children should be able to do—what is age-appropriate. Here’s a list of what “typical†children know upon entering kindergarten, from the National Center for Education Statistics report Entering Kindergarten: Findings from the Condition of Education 2000:

• Sixty-six percent of children entering kindergarten recognize letters in the alphabet.
• Sixty-one percent of children entering kindergarten know you read left to right.
• Many kindergartners do not yet possess early reading skills.
• Children might not point to letters representing sounds.
• New kindergartners might not be able to read basic words by sight yet.
• Only 1 in 50 actually read basic and complex words entering kindergarten.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001035.pdf

Note this is what occurs but isn’t what young children should necessarily be doing when it comes to reading.

Don’t believe me? Pick up any book about normal reading development and you will find that young children progress when they are ready—at their own pace.

The American Academy of Pediatrics notes the critical factor as to how a student will learn to read “is not how aggressively,†the child is given instruction, but rather their “own enthusiasm for learning.†They also state that many early learning programs “interferewith the child’s natural enthusiasm†by imposing on children to “concentrate on tasks†when they aren’t ready.

[Walking-Iris]

Things like this annoy me. They make it seem that learning the ABCs and some sounds is terribly difficult. And there's some sort of crisis.

 

Goodness look at all the ABC stuff people throw at kids these days. PBS shows and LeapPad shows and nearly any toy marketed to babies or toddlers has some sort of ABC thing going on. 

 

How any child couldn't understand the basics by the time they were five is beyond me.

 

110 letter sounds? Have I not have enough coffee this morning, but what are these 110 letter sounds?

[Dmmetler]

My first thought is "Isn't that what K is supposed to be? Learning some basic letters/sounds and other facts, while getting used to being in a classroom setting, so you can learn to read in 1st grade?"

 

It really sounds like they're faulting parents for not homeschooling kindergarten before kids go to kindergarten. I had a child who picked up reading by osmosis, but was 7 before she could tell time or reliably identify coins and their values (which was insane, because other than money, she's advanced at math) and 9 before she could tie her shoes, and still refuses to zip her winter coat because the zipper gets stuck easily. I'm sure her  teachers would feel I'm a failing parent as far as the life skills stuff goes-when actually it's been that she gets things in her own timetable, no matter how much I try to teach them. My gut feeling is that in this Sesame Street/Leapfrog/IPhone app age any kid who gets to K not knowing their letters probably simply isn't ready to learn them yet.

 

 

[Chris in VA]

I think there's a wide range of readiness. I also think a good K teacher knows how to use those play kitchens, dolls and blocks in order to cover a wide range of skills!

 

The pressure on both kids and teachers is enormous. It makes me so sad to see kids who think they are "behind" when they are only 5 or 6 years old. Sheesh.

 

Also, research from way back (so they've known a long time) says reading aloud to kids increases their likelihood of learning to read "early," which, IINM, is considered 5yo. I don't see a lot of committment to THAT in the ps agenda; "just throw the kid another d@m worksheet."

 

And, they make reading so complicated. Rules, rules, rules...IDK--I get a little heated when I discuss reading instruction.

[mom2att]

I confess to not reading the article, only OE's  blurb. But on the "crisis"--ugh.  When will they learn that it's not a matter of the kids being "ready" for kindergarten, but rather that their standards are not developmentally appropriate?

 

Bring back play kitchens, storytime, and center-based learning.  I am all for rules-based, direct instruction when it comes to phonics, but not when it is shoved down the throats of kids for whom time, patience, and exposure would be of great benefit.

 

A glance at the early-learning philosophies of the countries highly praised for their educational systems is telling--many don't begin formal schooling until 7.  At 7, one would think ours would be reading novels and writing dissertations, what with all the early learning they've done.

 

I know that pendulum swings in education are common.  It does seem like we've been stuck at "the sooner the better" for quite some time now.

 

ETA:  I have now read the whole article.  She gives some very good points on the "crisis" indicated by the cited study.  The comments are also very interesting--most by current or retired teachers.

[SKL]

Why are there any standards at all for "starting" formal education?

What happened to realizing that kids are coming from all different backgrounds and need to be met where they are?

 

And who exactly are they frowning at here?

[SKL]

I keep asking the question with every Common Core fuss that arises (and they arise often with folks I know): 15 years from now, are US adults going to be much smarter than the young adults of today?  I rather doubt it.  And if they are, I'm not sure what good it's going to do.  It's not like the jobs that have moved overseas are going to come back just because our kids learned division in 2nd grade instead of 3rd.

[Korrale]

Kindergarten students are expected to be reading, writing and doing math by the end of the year. Pre-k is the getting ready for it part where they learn to write their name, learn the letters or the alphabet and count.

[8filltheheart]

Kindergarten students are expected to be reading, writing and doing math by the end of the year. Pre-k is the getting ready for it part where they learn to write their name, learn the letters or the alphabet and count.

Only recently. Preschool is now what k used to be and k is the new 1st. That does not mean that those goals are laudable.

[ErinE]

Kindergarten students are expected to be reading, writing and doing math by the end of the year. Pre-k is the getting ready for it part where they learn to write their name, learn the letters or the alphabet and count.

Yet, children still aren't doing this by the end of the year. I lived in a middle/upper middle class area where children were sent to preschool before PS K. Not knowing anything about childhood development, I was amazed at the wide range abilities from a variety of backgrounds. After spending years volunteering in the school, I realized that the range was appropriate. By second and third grade, most kids were caught up.

 

I gave my child a standardized test at the end of K because I was so concerned about being behind in reading. We were still stuck on CVC words. The result was average.

[Julie Smith]

 

How any child couldn't understand the basics by the time they were five is beyond me.

 

 

Because they don't want to learn, and someone doesn't force them to just because it's possible for them to learn it.

[bttrflyvld]

You can't be behind at age 5 or 6. At this age, every child has developed at their own time.  That's the joy of homeschooling.  You don't have to compare your child to others in a class if same age peers.  We can let our children learn at their pace. 

[My3girls]

All my kids started in ps. 2 had no issue with reading by the end of K. My middle girl, however, needed more time. She suffered from bullying, low self-esteem, behavior issues, and hates to read just as this author points out. She is the reason that we started homeschooling. Since we brought her home, everything has been resolved except for the hates to read part. She doesn't cry over reading anymore so that is progress. She is having to redo 2nd grade because the difficulty in reading affected every other subject. She picks it up quicker, though, than my true 2nd grader, because she has heard/seen it before. She just wasn't able to master it.

[VinNY]

 

How any child couldn't understand the basics by the time they were five is beyond me.  Children with auditory processing issues, language impaired, dyslexics etc I had two children not able to do this at K or even 1st and 2nd. My other children were spot on and yet they all had the same language exposure, early education program, read alouds. 

 

110 letter sounds? Have I not have enough coffee this morning, but what are these 110 letter sounds? Well if you were to count up the different sounds the individual vowels makes (a makes 3, e makes 2 etc) consonant sounds (hard c, soft c etc) phonograms like sh,qu,ough  makes 6 sounds,  vowel teams etc you will get 110 letter sounds. 

[VinNY]

The expectations are developmentally inappropriate. This has turned me off from Common Core. There was no input at  all from seasoned educators. I am glad that balanced literacy has been brought back into the classroom but this stress of pushing children is taking a toll on them, parents and educators in the school system. 

[8filltheheart]

Things like this annoy me. They make it seem that learning the ABCs and some sounds is terribly difficult. And there's some sort of crisis.

 

Goodness look at all the ABC stuff people throw at kids these days. PBS shows and LeapPad shows and nearly any toy marketed to babies or toddlers has some sort of ABC thing going on. 

 

How any child couldn't understand the basics by the time they were five is beyond me.

 

110 letter sounds? Have I not have enough coffee this morning, but what are these 110 letter sounds?

 

Or educators that are not concerned with teaching young children how to read or write and their kids don't watch much TV or play with electronics.  ;) 

 

I have had 7 kids reach 5 w/o knowing how to write their name or know their letters.   It just is no where near being a priority in our lives.  Apparently it is defying the laws of modern educational theory that they are not all backward and illiterate and yrs behind their peers for not spending time in preschool doing academics.   Thank goodness they are cocooned in our little nest and haven't been told that they are stupid and behind. 

[ErinE]

Anecdote doesn't make data, but one of my children has a relative two weeks younger. Starting K, my child knew most letter sounds, but struggled with CVC words. The young relative was reading simple books. At the end of K, my child tested as average in reading, young relative tested as 95%. Two years later, both children are reading at the same level and the young relative attends an excellent private school. Using different methods, they reached the same point.

 

I think building a good foundation for the K-2nd years would better serve children than claiming they're "behind" at 5 years old.

[PeterPan]

Things like this annoy me. They make it seem that learning the ABCs and some sounds is terribly difficult. And there's some sort of crisis.

 

Goodness look at all the ABC stuff people throw at kids these days. PBS shows and LeapPad shows and nearly any toy marketed to babies or toddlers has some sort of ABC thing going on. 

 

How any child couldn't understand the basics by the time they were five is beyond me.

 

110 letter sounds? Have I not have enough coffee this morning, but what are these 110 letter sounds?

 

Add my child to VinNY's list.   ;)  He has listened to tons of audiobooks, had alphabet puzzles, done cvc word puzzles, etc. etc. with me for years now, and the child, at 5yr4 months cannot consistently get the numbers 6, 7, 8, 9 correct.  He can't read a clock, save as a list of numbers (which he then gets wrong).  We've TRIED.  Oh, but he can tell you about the Trojan War and WWII and the Japanese and guns and anything else you want to know.  So honestly, I found it fascinating that for all the effort and brouhaha about reading in K5, the stats have a LOT of kids about the same place he is.  That's what our SLP told us would be the case with testing, and I couldn't believe it.  My dd at newly 5 tested into 1st grade math and was doing all kinds of stuff.  With my ds, I'm just trying to get him to know the number 6.  No developmental delay, just a VERY DIFFERENT CHILD.  Oh, and the SLP says his IQ will turn out to be higher than dd's.   :lol: 

 

 

Because they don't want to learn, and someone doesn't force them to just because it's possible for them to learn it.

:svengo: I hate to admit it, but that's about the rudest thing I've read in a while.  Maybe I really misunderstood you?  Did you just imply that those of us with kids who fit the bulk of the stats in that article are in that position because we clearly aren't enlightened and don't try hard enough???

 

The expectations are developmentally inappropriate. This has turned me off from Common Core. There was no input at  all from seasoned educators. I am glad that balanced literacy has been brought back into the classroom but this stress of pushing children is taking a toll on them, parents and educators in the school system. 

Yup, that's what amazed me.  I was just telling our SLP (speech therapist) at our last session how concerned I was, and she said not to be, that if you gave him the tests, developmentally his phonological processing is somewhere in the range of what's acceptable, not in freak-out zone.  I wouldn't have believed it till I saw this article.  She said there's a range and I think that's what those stats are showing...  And yes, I can't even imagine being the kid in that, being set up to be labeled defective if you're at all different.  

[NASDAQ]

I had two who hit five unable to recognise any letters or sounds. ds might have known M and S. Dd for sure didn't know a thing. She's seven and reading the OUP Ancient Worlds series and Half Magic, so she seems to have survived the experience. She was read to every day of her life. So was he. Three-year-old knows his letters and sounds. Go figure.

 

Some people who have precocious children either feign ignorance or genuinely don't realise that what their child did at four is not what Average Child does at four, and  think these people do damage by perpetuating the notion that everyone's child ought to be as theirs was or is. I'm not sure what the satisfaction in that is.

[kitten18]

 

:svengo: I hate to admit it, but that's about the rudest thing I've read in a while.  Maybe I really misunderstood you?  Did you just imply that those of us with kids who fit the bulk of the stats in that article are in that position because we clearly aren't enlightened and don't try hard enough???

 

 

 

I think you misunderstood Julie's post.  I think she was saying that some kids aren't interested in learning letter sounds at 5 (or before) and their parents might not pound it into them even though the educational system says we should

 

 

Or I could be wrong. :huh:

[PeterPan]

I had two who hit five unable to recognise any letters or sounds. ds might have known M and S. Dd for sure didn't know a thing. She's seven and reading the OUP Ancient Worlds series and Half Magic, so she seems to have survived the experience. She was read to every day of her life. So was he. Three-year-old knows his letters and sounds. Go figure.

 

Some people who have precocious children either feign ignorance or genuinely don't realise that what their child did at four is not what Average Child does at four, and  think these people do damage by perpetuating the notion that everyone's child ought to be as theirs was or is. I'm not sure what the satisfaction in that is.

Thank you.  I appreciate this additionally because it seems like your kids are NT (neurotypical).  It's one thing for a kid with speech problems to show a pattern and it's another when you realize you have a pool of totally typical kids and that totally typical kids can have that range at that age.  So thanks for sharing your normalness I guess.  :D

[Ausmumof3]

That's how I read it too... I think it was meant as a positive.

 

Sometimes stuff like this makes me think the teachers don't want to actually teach anything... They want the parents to teach the kids their letters, they want the parents to spend an hour a night doing readers and explaining maths.

 

I think it's great for parents to be involved (or i wouldnt be homeschooling) but then you start wondering what the point is of school at all when most of the work is done at home.

[Arcadia]

 It's one thing for a kid with speech problems to show a pattern and it's another when you realize you have a pool of totally typical kids and that totally typical kids can have that range at that age.

 

I think Head Start may have skewed school's expectations of incoming kindergartners skillset.  Below is copied from my county's report "School Readiness Assessment of Graduating Head Start Students"

 

"Recognizes letters

Recognizes shapes

Recognizes colors

Counts 10 objects

Engages with books

Writes own first name

Can recognize rhyming words"

 

When I registered my older for public school kindergarten, I was asked what he knew academic wise as he did not go to a preschool/pre-K.  He was the only 1 of 120 that did not go to preschool and/or pre-K.

[Tanikit]

What I wanted to know reading that is WHY WHY WHY they would show a child entering kindergarten a whole page of sounds and 110 on one page - even if the child could read all of them and knew the sounds, they would get so freaked out by the huge amount of "stuff" on the page that they would not be able to tell anyone anything. Surely upon entering kindergarten most children, if they are reading, would need larger print size and also fewer words per page - this is common sense which whoever was doing the testing does not seem to have.

 

My two are both early readers, but have followed a very different path there. Each child is different and therefore would develop in different things at different times. They jumped at different times too, wanted to steal the toothbrush when having their teeth brushed at different ages, spoke and pronounced sounds at different ages, so of course children will differ regarding reading - and not just in the acquisition of sounds either.

[VaKim]

That's how I read it too... I think it was meant as a positive.

 

Sometimes stuff like this makes me think the teachers don't want to actually teach anything... They want the parents to teach the kids their letters, they want the parents to spend an hour a night doing readers and explaining maths.

 

I think it's great for parents to be involved (or i wouldnt be homeschooling) but then you start wondering what the point is of school at all when most of the work is done at home.

And this is exactly why I started homeschooling. My oldest went to ps through 3rd grade and was getting behind in math. In the process of looking for some materials to help her at home, I stumbled upon homeschooling. Didn't even know it was possible before that. And my conclusion was, if I have to teach her at home anyway, why bother sending her to school at all?

 

There was no kindergarten when I started school. We learned to read in 1st grade. I thought the purpose of sending kids to school was so they could be taught. 

[arnold]

And this is exactly why I started homeschooling. My oldest went to ps through 3rd grade and was getting behind in math. In the process of looking for some materials to help her at home, I stumbled upon homeschooling. Didn't even know it was possible before that. And my conclusion was, if I have to teach her at home anyway, why bother sending her to school at all?

 

There was no kindergarten when I started school. We learned to read in 1st grade. I thought the purpose of sending kids to school was so they could be taught. 

This is the same reason I started to homeschool. Dd went thru 2 nd grade in PS before we removed her and this was the feeling I had from the teachers.

[My3girls]

That's how I read it too... I think it was meant as a positive.

 

Sometimes stuff like this makes me think the teachers don't want to actually teach anything... They want the parents to teach the kids their letters, they want the parents to spend an hour a night doing readers and explaining maths.

 

I think it's great for parents to be involved (or i wouldnt be homeschooling) but then you start wondering what the point is of school at all when most of the work is done at home.

 

Agreed!  With DD9, we had to redo all of her work everynight plus her homework.  She brought home her schoolwork, and it was almost all wrong but was not marked at all.  I asked her teacher about it.  They did their work, he went over it with them as a class, and they were supposed to mark it and correct it.  If they had any questions, they could come ask him.  This was in 2nd grade!!!  My gosh, I don't think you could get most high schoolers to do that.  This combined with her slow reading development equalled disaster.  I didn't think it was fair for her to be in school all day and then have to do school for hours when she got home.  When did she get to play and be a kid?

 

[regentrude]

Things like this annoy me. They make it seem that learning the ABCs and some sounds is terribly difficult. And there's some sort of crisis.

 

Goodness look at all the ABC stuff people throw at kids these days. PBS shows and LeapPad shows and nearly any toy marketed to babies or toddlers has some sort of ABC thing going on. 

 

How any child couldn't understand the basics by the time they were five is beyond me.

 

Because they grew up in a  family that did not push early academics, did not have a TV or battery operated toys, and had other educational goals for the years before 5?

 

Coming from a country where formal education does not begin until age 6 or 7 and where children are not expected to know the ABCs before entering school, my DD was the only kid in her K class who, at age 5, did not know the alphabet. She was also the first child in her class to read fluently at Christmas of K and to read at 4th grade level by March.

Early drill in characters and letter sounds is neither a guarantee for good early reading skills nor a necessity. This push is ridiculous, developmentally inappropriate and a waste of time.

[regentrude]

I hate to admit it, but that's about the rudest thing I've read in a while.  Maybe I really misunderstood you?  Did you just imply that those of us with kids who fit the bulk of the stats in that article are in that position because we clearly aren't enlightened and don't try hard enough???

 

I did not read it like this at all. I interpret

 

 

Because they don't want to learn, and someone doesn't force them to just because it's possible for them to learn it.

 

as her saying "some kid could learn it if somebody really worked on it, but some people do not consider it necessary to make a young kid learn these things when the kid himself does not show an interest yet". And I completely agree with that. My kids showed no interest; they most likely would have been capable, but did not show any desire, and we did not force them. We considered other things much more important at that age.

I see the statement as something very positive, in fact, and not at all a stab at families whose children are not doing this yet. I do not read her remark as "all kids could do this if the parents worked hard enough"

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Thanks Regentrude, that explanation makes a lot more sense.  Oh, and it's fascinating to hear about your dd.  Because my ds has a speech problem, I'm highly concerned about making sure I'm not missing things or failing to intervene when I ought to.  It's really hard to have a sense of developmentally normal.  His SLP has more testing she can do, but it is $110 an hour and would take 4-6 more hours, oy.  And that's all to hear what she already thinks is the case, that he's probably going to fall somewhere in the range of normal, that she considers it, until they're 6-7, a RANGE.  And that's from someone who's doing in-depth testing of their auditory processing (phonemic awareness, etc.) and has the standardized scores to compare it to.  I still, well I hate to say worry but there you go.  It's still on my mind.  And honestly, I never dreamed that a thread like this would get so many responses in the camp of later but perfectly normal or even super bright.  Thanks.  :)

[MomatHWTK]

If the alarm bell is not rung often and loudly, funding for universal pre-K won't be approved and the cradle to grave control of child education will take longer to implement.  And how can we compete on a world market if all our workers aren't properly trained to do what they are told, how they are told and in exactly the same way.  The very future of our country depends on conformity to the new standards.  :glare:

[Walking-Iris]

Okay I feel everyone is completely misunderstanding my post.

 

I am in NO way trying to imply that that everyone should have a 4 or 5 year old child on the same page.

 

The point of my statement was that we do live in a more print heavy environment than when I was 4 years old. It just seemed humorous to me that they would make a crisis out it when it seems kind of impossible to me that a kid won't pick up some of  these skills. And showing 5 year olds a page of all the phonograms and then some is not appropriate in any way. The original post said that they knew 19 of the letters, and that was a problem? Great---that's what I would consider normal. To me K is when you are either A) learning the letters and handwriting or B reinforcing a bit more of what you picked up and learned as a 3 or 4 year old. 

 

Even if a child wasn't ready to learn these things, they would most certainly be exposed to them somewhere...someway...even if it wasn't television. 

 

Also I'd like to point out that just because a child does have the literacy skills at 4 or 5 (or even 3) it in NO way implies that an adult is "forcing" or "pushing academics."

 

I approach early learning from a Montessori perspective so all of my children have (and will) reach 5 knowing letters their sounds and how to write them. (not all of the phonograms...that's a learning to read skill that spans several years and I in no way would expect an incoming Kinder to know all of that!) But it's a skill that is repeated and reinforced. It's just so much a part of what my kids are exposed to that it happens. And trust me I'm not pushing or forcing them to do anything. 

 

I understand that other people have other goals, and I understand that different kids learn at different rates. My 6 year old is not reading where my oldest was at the same age, and it's okay with me. My oldest has Asperger's and some auditory issues so I do understand those challenges as well. 

 

But to be frankly honest, I'm also not of the philosophy of waiting until my kids show an interest in things either. And i also reject the idea that any kid "does not want to learn."

 

In fact all children, especially young ones are little sponges desperate to learn stuff. 

 

 

 

 

 

[RootAnn]

How any child couldn't understand the basics by the time they were five is beyond me.

 

110 letter sounds? Have I not have enough coffee this morning, but what are these 110 letter sounds?

 

My ds#1 is apparently 'beyond' you as he falls into the camp of not knowing all this stuff when he was 5. He's learning it now in my kindergarten at the age of 6+. (He knew the four sounds that 'ou' makes at the age of 3, so when I eventually show him those two letters as a phonogram, he already has the sounds that go with them and just has to match them in his head. But he had no idea those particular shapes meant anything other than scribbles until last summer.)

 

And if he falls into the same camp as two of his three older sisters, he won't be reading fluently until between 7 and 9. (We aren't techno people & don't watch TV, FWIW.) I didn't know about most of the 'letter sounds' until I started teaching my oldest to read. (Depending on dialect, there are between 41 & 52 unique sounds for the 26 letters of the alphabet & 70+ phonograms that also make some of those unique sounds. I think it is tough to know that 'ough' can make six different sounds depending on the word they are used in.)

 

Or educators that are not concerned with teaching young children how to read or write and their kids don't watch much TV or play with electronics.  ;)

 

I have had 7 kids reach 5 w/o knowing how to write their name or know their letters.   It just is no where near being a priority in our lives.  Apparently it is defying the laws of modern educational theory that they are not all backward and illiterate and yrs behind their peers for not spending time in preschool doing academics.   Thank goodness they are cocooned in our little nest and haven't been told that they are stupid and behind. 

:iagree:  (Except I've only had 3 of 4 kids so far (not) reach this milestone.)

Edited February 11, 2014 by RootAnn

[wapiti]

I guess that's one thing that bugs me about the PS mindset in general, especially in the younger years: the assumption that development is linear and even.  I'm under the impression that even neurotypical kids don't develop in a linear and even manner.

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[PeterPan]

Wow Wapiti, you really Wapiti-ed me with your story!  Thanks, I needed that!   :D   And you're right, I had not even thought in terms of non-linear development, my bad.  That's an interesting thought to ponder.  And yes, up until just a few months ago, *I* thought ds was developmentally delayed.  I kept saying that to the SLP, and she was adamant he was NOT.  Now I get it, that it's all in there.  With him, some of the stuff is being held back by the ST, I think.  We've been doing less therapy lately, because his scores are age-appropriate (which also makes a mom nervous, but whatever), and NOW his writing is coming back.  When he was newly 2, he had the motor control of a 5 yo.  We started ST, and all his writing STOPPED, cold turkey.  It was like the ST takes so much energy from his brain that there's nothing left for the rest.  We've been doing less therapy (as in one appt every 1-3 months), and now he's finally starting to write his name, etc., when he had RECOGNIZABLE WRITING at age 2-3.  That's pretty wild.  

 

I've sort of been visualizing him as illiterate till he's 12 and listening to books on the iPad forever.  I think I like your picture better (asynchronous, and gelling at 6-7), so I think I'll hold that.  Might at least make me feel better.  Thanks.   :)

 

And yes, that's what the SLP has us doing now, workbooks on auditory processing comprehension stuff, inferences, eh-words, that kind of thing.  It's like you have to make sure it's all there. At least the workbooks are fun and not hard to implement.

 

Ok, one more thing.  You mentioned the Montessori thing, and it's so true.  When you try and try and things DON'T work, it's very hard to sort out if you just didn't try ENOUGH or intelligently enough or what.  I still have that weight on me about dd, just being honest.  I don't think it helps anyone to hug the paradigm if you just do it it works, because sometimes you DO it and it DOESN'T work.  I taught my dd handwriting and did it with her and did it with her.  We did the 8's and the motor control sequences aloud and callirobics and...  And STILL her motor control is not automatic per the psych.  And I feel bad going into my next kid, because I don't know if it's something *I* did wrong (as in didn't do enough) or if it's just how she is.  I tend to think it's just how she is.  The entire stinkin' planet learns to write and read and sing (another thing my ds barely does) with no effort and just minimal instruction.  Some kids just defy imagination.  They're the kids that leave you going HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW THIS, WE'VE DONE THIS EVERY DAY, EVERY YEAR, FOR 6 YEARS!

[SKL]

The more I think about it, it seems like many parts of the US are finding a round-about way to add on an extra year of high school.

 

Require some level of academic proficiency before KG => push KG down to pre-K => force the age up in pre-K since average kids can't do all that

So...

the Pre-K of 2015 will equate to the KG of 1970,

the KG of 2015 can equate to the 1st grade of 1970,

...

the 12th grade of 2015 is really 13th grade.

 

Why not just add on 13th grade and be done with it?

 

[8filltheheart]

The more I think about it, it seems like many parts of the US are finding a round-about way to add on an extra year of high school.

 

Require some level of academic proficiency before KG => push KG down to pre-K => force the age up in pre-K since average kids can't do all that

So...

the Pre-K of 2015 will equate to the KG of 1970,

the KG of 2015 can equate to the 1st grade of 1970,

...

the 12th grade of 2015 is really 13th grade.

 

Why not just add on 13th grade and be done with it?

Bc it does not work that way. Cognitive development is a real factor in learning. How many posts are there on this forum about children eager to learn to read and know their phonograms and can't blend. Or they are able to blend initial sounds without the final sound. Based on their descriptions, it isn't for lack teaching or desire on part of the child. It is really linked to the mental development of the brain. It is why there is a range of normal for reading. 5-7 is going to be the majority of the bell curve with statistical anomalies existing earlier and later.

 

The disconnect with modern educational theory is that somehow entering school knowing letters and sounds-- which is simple recall and why younger kids can learn the association between the picture (letter) and the associated sound -- means they are more prepared to learn to read. That is a fallacy. Kids that don't know their letters/sounds and are more cognitively mature (not advanced bc this is not a factor of intelligence but simple growing.....it would be like suggesting the taller kid is smarter) can easily master the letters and sounds and read earlier than a child that may have entered k with those skills but still can't read.

 

There is a fundamental lack of understanding about cognitive development. Language rich environments with lots of stories and phonemic games( rhymes, sound games, etc) will do far more to enhance cognitive development of phonemic awareness than teaching letters and sounds.

 

Pushing to do things earlier than age appropriate does not mean they end up a yr ahead.

[8filltheheart]

The point of my statement was that we do live in a more print heavy environment than when I was 4 years old..

We must have grown up in completely different environments bc things are way more audio/visual today than when I was a child. Audio/visual is available on demand anywhere today. When I was a kid, we had a cottage that had no tv reception, no telephone, and the radio was intermittent. We did not possess DVDs or even VHS. You didn't watch anything unless it was homemade movies, but more realistically it was a slide show.

 

Print was everything, especially for entertainment purposes.

[arnold]

Agreed!  With DD9, we had to redo all of her work everynight plus her homework.  She brought home her schoolwork, and it was almost all wrong but was not marked at all.  I asked her teacher about it.  They did their work, he went over it with them as a class, and they were supposed to mark it and correct it.  If they had any questions, they could come ask him.  This was in 2nd grade!!!  My gosh, I don't think you could get most high schoolers to do that.  This combined with her slow reading development equalled disaster.  I didn't think it was fair for her to be in school all day and then have to do school for hours when she got home.  When did she get to play and be a kid?

 

We're our kids in the same class?????????

[Walking-Iris]

Wow Wapiti, you really Wapiti-ed me with your story!  Thanks, I needed that!   :D   And you're right, I had not even thought in terms of non-linear development, my bad.  That's an interesting thought to ponder.  And yes, up until just a few months ago, *I* thought ds was developmentally delayed.  I kept saying that to the SLP, and she was adamant he was NOT.  Now I get it, that it's all in there.  With him, some of the stuff is being held back by the ST, I think.  We've been doing less therapy lately, because his scores are age-appropriate (which also makes a mom nervous, but whatever), and NOW his writing is coming back.  When he was newly 2, he had the motor control of a 5 yo.  We started ST, and all his writing STOPPED, cold turkey.  It was like the ST takes so much energy from his brain that there's nothing left for the rest.  We've been doing less therapy (as in one appt every 1-3 months), and now he's finally starting to write his name, etc., when he had RECOGNIZABLE WRITING at age 2-3.  That's pretty wild.  

 

I've sort of been visualizing him as illiterate till he's 12 and listening to books on the iPad forever.  I think I like your picture better (asynchronous, and gelling at 6-7), so I think I'll hold that.  Might at least make me feel better.  Thanks.   :)

 

And yes, that's what the SLP has us doing now, workbooks on auditory processing comprehension stuff, inferences, eh-words, that kind of thing.  It's like you have to make sure it's all there. At least the workbooks are fun and not hard to implement.

 

Ok, one more thing.  You mentioned the Montessori thing, and it's so true.  When you try and try and things DON'T work, it's very hard to sort out if you just didn't try ENOUGH or intelligently enough or what.  I still have that weight on me about dd, just being honest.  I don't think it helps anyone to hug the paradigm if you just do it it works, because sometimes you DO it and it DOESN'T work.  I taught my dd handwriting and did it with her and did it with her.  We did the 8's and the motor control sequences aloud and callirobics and...  And STILL her motor control is not automatic per the psych.  And I feel bad going into my next kid, because I don't know if it's something *I* did wrong (as in didn't do enough) or if it's just how she is.  I tend to think it's just how she is.  The entire stinkin' planet learns to write and read and sing (another thing my ds barely does) with no effort and just minimal instruction.  Some kids just defy imagination.  They're the kids that leave you going HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW THIS, WE'VE DONE THIS EVERY DAY, EVERY YEAR, FOR 6 YEARS!

 

And again with true Montessori they wouldn't really be thinking what a child needs to do this year, they would think in terms of sensitive periods than span several years.  And they would want a child having the foundation of sensory activities and practical life activities first. Things that are being phased out and completely missing from some typical public schools. 

 

And I do understand this feeling of "what am I doing wrong?" My oldest is 11 and he cannot sing...just literally cannot make his voice create the sounds needed to sing. 

 

And I've also done all of these things for years and he still struggles with tying his shoes or even building with Legos. And about a hundred other motor tasks I could list that are real challenges for him that other kids just do. 

 

He's 11 and I still have him working on practical life skills activities that a 3-4 year old would be doing in a Montessori preschool, and we've been working on it for years and years and years. 

 

But cognitively (academically) he's with other 5th-6th graders. 

 

I have to take his physical limitations into consideration. But like previous posters have mentioned, if I simply decided he wasn't ready or didn't want to....he would be even farther behind developmentally. It's something that I have to take a proactive approach about and keep moving forward. 

 

I've read a ton of your posts on the learning challenges forum, and you don't strike me as someone who just waits. It's apparent to me that you are aware of the specific challenges your child faces and are taking steps to move forward at the pace you need to. Often times I feel that when a child shows no interest and so the parent does nothing to very little until that interest is shown, there could be underlying problems that aren't getting addressed. My oldest missed out on any early intervention he could have benefited from because we had a pede saying "it's just a phase, wait and see" and by the time I spoke out against the doctors opinion he was too old for that particular avenue of help. 

 

I think that it's best to try to plug away at some of these things early, whether a child shows interest or desire or not. You may have a kid who picks it up fast or you may have a kid who finally gets it all to click at age 6 or 7 or so, or even later. But I feel like even if you don't see that anything is working, you keep up at it because you're giving that child years of a foundation so that when it does all fall into place they don't have to start at square one. It may feel futile for a long time, but it is getting in there. I don't think it would be pushing academics, it's just simply giving a child what they need as little or as much as they can handle so that they have all the pieces they need when it does start to fall into place.

 

Comparing your child to NT kids or even what was mentioned in your original link won't help. I'm still sort of in awe that someone gave a page of 100 some sounds to  an incoming Kinder. ;) I can't compare my 11 year old to my 6 year old....who is light years ahead of my oldest in terms of what he can do for himself in the fine and gross motor department. Because he's not a NT kid. 

 

If motor control was the indication of a "grade level" rather than reading, writing, and math ability, my 11 year old would be Kindergarten-1st grade level, just in terms of what I see NT kids being able to effortlessly do (or learn to do) with their bodies. 

 

That's our particular challenge. 

 

I think there's really two topics in this thread. One being the challenges of children who are not NT, and what is expected by public schools, which may or may not be appropriate even for NT kids.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

We must have grown up in completely different environments bc things are way more audio/visual today than when I was a child. Audio/visual is available on demand anywhere today. When I was a kid, we had a cottage that had no tv reception, no telephone, and the radio was intermittent. We did not possess DVDs or even VHS. You didn't watch anything unless it was homemade movies, but more realistically it was a slide show.

 

Print was everything, especially for entertainment purposes.

 

I agree. Heck, even my grandparents lived in a print heavy environment. Much more print, since there was no TV, no computers, no electronics. Just books and magazines. If anything, today's generation has less exposure to the written word and much more to audiovisual content, which probably creates a whole 'nother set of problems.

 

[Walking-Iris]

We must have grown up in completely different environments bc things are way more audio/visual today than when I was a child. Audio/visual is available on demand anywhere today. When I was a kid, we had a cottage that had no tv reception, no telephone, and the radio was intermittent. We did not possess DVDs or even VHS. You didn't watch anything unless it was homemade movies, but more realistically it was a slide show.

 

Print was everything, especially for entertainment purposes.

 

That's what I meant. Sorry. I meant today literacy *stuff* is everywhere. Baby toys and toddler toys are heavy on the literacy skills, iPads and Kindles and computers and a million other things are everywhere, and so on.

 

We didn't have all of that growing up. 

 

Even things like the amount of picture books that are available for kids seems like a whole lot more than I was aware of as a child.

 

Even if someone says they don't do a lot of that with their kids I sort of doubt it. 

 

It's just pervasive and everywhere regardless....kids are going to come into contact in some way.

[Walking-Iris]

I agree. Heck, even my grandparents lived in a print heavy environment. Much more print, since there was no TV, no computers, no electronics. Just books and magazines. If anything, today's generation has less exposure to the written word and much more to audiovisual content, which probably creates a whole 'nother set of problems.

 

Which brings up a good point I hadn't thought of.

 

Are there studies or articles about if a child learns something like letter sounds from an app versus a person speaking to them, any differences?

 

It just seems to be the universal band aid for teaching these concepts----throw on a LeapPad video.

[8filltheheart]

That's what I meant. Sorry. I meant today literacy *stuff* is everywhere. Baby toys and toddler toys are heavy on the literacy skills, iPads and Kindles and computers and a million other things are everywhere, and so on.

 

We didn't have all of that growing up.

 

Even things like the amount of picture books that are available for kids seems like a whole lot more than I was aware of as a child.

 

Even if someone says they don't do a lot of that with their kids I sort of doubt it.

 

I appreciate all the replies. They're helping me lay out the problems to try to start finding solutions.

 

It's just pervasive and everywhere regardless....kids are going to come into contact in some way.

I think you are confusing literacy skills with only learning to write letters and know their names. Singing songs, nursery rhymes, listening to stories....those are all early literacy skills.

 

As far as your definition, believe it or not, that is precisely the world my older 7 all grew up in. My kids don't touch the computer until they are older. They don't have iPads or apps.

 

My current 4 yr old is probably going to be different from my older kids simply kids bc she just absorbs everything that her siblings are doing without even really paying much attention. According my older kids, they think she is an alien. :)

 

 

Which brings up a good point I hadn't thought of.

 

Are there studies or articles about if a child learns something like letter sounds from an app versus a person speaking to them, any differences?

 

It just seems to be the universal band aid for teaching these concepts----throw on a LeapPad video.

not here. ;)

[PeterPan]

And again with true Montessori they wouldn't really be thinking what a child needs to do this year, they would think in terms of sensitive periods than span several years.  And they would want a child having the foundation of sensory activities and practical life activities first. Things that are being phased out and completely missing from some typical public schools. 

 

And I do understand this feeling of "what am I doing wrong?" My oldest is 11 and he cannot sing...just literally cannot make his voice create the sounds needed to sing. 

 

And I've also done all of these things for years and he still struggles with tying his shoes or even building with Legos. And about a hundred other motor tasks I could list that are real challenges for him that other kids just do. 

 

He's 11 and I still have him working on practical life skills activities that a 3-4 year old would be doing in a Montessori preschool, and we've been working on it for years and years and years. 

 

But cognitively (academically) he's with other 5th-6th graders. 

 

I have to take his physical limitations into consideration. But like previous posters have mentioned, if I simply decided he wasn't ready or didn't want to....he would be even farther behind developmentally. It's something that I have to take a proactive approach about and keep moving forward. 

 

I've read a ton of your posts on the learning challenges forum, and you don't strike me as someone who just waits. It's apparent to me that you are aware of the specific challenges your child faces and are taking steps to move forward at the pace you need to. Often times I feel that when a child shows no interest and so the parent does nothing to very little until that interest is shown, there could be underlying problems that aren't getting addressed. My oldest missed out on any early intervention he could have benefited from because we had a pede saying "it's just a phase, wait and see" and by the time I spoke out against the doctors opinion he was too old for that particular avenue of help. 

 

I think that it's best to try to plug away at some of these things early, whether a child shows interest or desire or not. You may have a kid who picks it up fast or you may have a kid who finally gets it all to click at age 6 or 7 or so, or even later. But I feel like even if you don't see that anything is working, you keep up at it because you're giving that child years of a foundation so that when it does all fall into place they don't have to start at square one. It may feel futile for a long time, but it is getting in there. I don't think it would be pushing academics, it's just simply giving a child what they need as little or as much as they can handle so that they have all the pieces they need when it does start to fall into place.

 

Comparing your child to NT kids or even what was mentioned in your original link won't help. I'm still sort of in awe that someone gave a page of 100 some sounds to  an incoming Kinder. ;) I can't compare my 11 year old to my 6 year old....who is light years ahead of my oldest in terms of what he can do for himself in the fine and gross motor department. Because he's not a NT kid. 

 

If motor control was the indication of a "grade level" rather than reading, writing, and math ability, my 11 year old would be Kindergarten-1st grade level, just in terms of what I see NT kids being able to effortlessly do (or learn to do) with their bodies. 

 

That's our particular challenge. 

 

I think there's really two topics in this thread. One being the challenges of children who are not NT, and what is expected by public schools, which may or may not be appropriate even for NT kids.

Thanks, I very much appreciate this.  These are topics on my mind.  There's sometimes this sort of competition for ideas and moral high ground with SN kids, where you have people saying wait and be sensitive and people saying barge in and fix the defective wretch, no matter what the cost or consequence.  I'm with you that I can't just do NOTHING, but it's also hard knowing when our ideas are skewed by something that's not even developmentally typical/normal.  I think you're saying don't give up, lol, so I won't give up.  Sometimes you want to though.  It's just kinda, well that didn't click, throw in the towel for a while and maybe at age x it will finally click.  You're right though that things I THOUGHT WEREN'T WORKING with dd turned out to lay seeds of understanding and seeds of thought processes that she now benefits from, all these years later.  Sometimes the mere *attempt* is beneficial.

 

Thanks for sharing.  :)

[regentrude]

Are there studies or articles about if a child learns something like letter sounds from an app versus a person speaking to them, any differences?

 

It just seems to be the universal band aid for teaching these concepts----throw on a LeapPad video.

 

I do not know about any studies, but I know that nothing is a substitute for parents (or other caregivers) talking to children. Nothing else builds vocabulary and an intuitive feeling for language like talking with a live person. A child who can express herself orally in grammatically correct sentences with a standard pronounciation will have a much easier time learning to read than a child whose oral language skills are lacking. Which is one reason why I find the early push for reading misguided, since many children in preschool age are not yet talking correctly. But how will phonetics make sense when children do not have developed phonemic awareness and an oral command of their native language? Nursery rhymes, finger games, songs... all play an important role in language development. Skipping this stage in order to race to formal writing seems unwise.

 

I know that there are studies that for families where a different language is spoken in the home, oral fluency in the native language is an important prerequisite to learning to speak and read in the foreign language of the environment. Apparently, there are crucial transfer skills. So, the advice that families should not talk in their family language at home is a very bad one, because that creates students who are not proficient in either their home or the environment language.

[PeterPan]

Btw, just to digress into the technology thing, my ds uses the iPad, but he still doesn't recognize even basic words there that he sees over and over to operate his apps.  He's usually guessing.  For his audiobooks, I'm not really sure how he finds stuff.  He does it all himself, but he must be using the cover images or something, lol.  I won't know.  I know he likes the newer iOS better than the old one.  I can't even find stuff in there, so I don't know how he does, lol.  I guess just for trivia I'll ask him.  

 

Oh, and the only reason he doesn't cost me a fortune in inadvertent app purchases of coins and upgrades and junk is because we don't have wifi.  Otherwise, that would be a mess, lol.

[Sarah0000]

I really like this discussion. I felt, and still feel, the same way about not pushing academics so early. And then it turns out I have an extremely precocious toddler. I'm of course proud of his abilities, but I do get tired of people assuming I'm pushing him with drills and flashcards every day of his life when in reality I've never done any such thing. Some people have even lectured me, in real life and other homeschooling forums, about the importance of free play over academics for young children. I wonder how many of those kids who know the alphabet before kindergarten are simply precocious children.

[wapiti]

.

[Sarah0000]

I do not know about any studies, but I know that nothing is a substitute for parents (or other caregivers) talking to children. Nothing else builds vocabulary and an intuitive feeling for language like talking with a live person. A child who can express herself orally in grammatically correct sentences with a standard pronounciation will have a much easier time learning to read than a child whose oral language skills are lacking. Which is one reason why I find the early push for reading misguided, since many children in preschool age are not yet talking correctly. But how will phonetics make sense when children do not have developed phonemic awareness and an oral command of their native language? Nursery rhymes, finger games, songs... all play an important role in language development. Skipping this stage in order to race to formal writing seems unwise.

 

I know that there are studies that for families where a different language is spoken in the home, oral fluency in the native language is an important prerequisite to learning to speak and read in the foreign language of the environment. Apparently, there are crucial transfer skills. So, the advice that families should not talk in their family language at home is a very bad one, because that creates students who are not proficient in either their home or the environment language.

 

In our personal experience so far, it is possible to learn to read before really talking well. My son is 27 months old and he only routinely says a handful of words in normal conversation. He can pick out, point to, match, etc. all the initial letter sounds even though he can not make all the sounds. BUT he can read more words than he uses in normal conversation. He sounds them out. In fact, he uses letter tiles to help communicate with us since he doesn't talk well yet. For example, if we're trying to guess what he's talking about and we're not getting it, he'll go get the letter magnet the word starts with to help us out. He also is learning ASL so that helps a lot, especially since when he's reading he'll sometimes use ASL if it's a word he cannot say.