............

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[Dandelion]

I don't see it.  I think people see what they want to see (or imagine they should be seeing).  If you approach others with an open mind and heart, and you don't expect people to "wage war" on your beliefs, that's what you'll find.  I think that's true with anything though - your paradigm and expectations shape your experience.    :)

[Liz CA]

In some cities the public display of nativity scenes is being challenged (San Francisco, a few years ago). Some store employees have supposedly been told they should say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." This is what I am hearing. In our, rather conservative, community it has not become an issue yet.

[T'smom]

I don't see it either.

[Dory]

I see a lot of Merry XMas around here and hear a lot of Happy Holidays. The Happy Holidays doesn't annoy me, but the Xmas does. I don't see a need to X out the word Christ in Christmas. That seems pointed and nasty. I say Happy Holidays because I'm not hugely into Christmas and wasn't raised that way but then I'm using a completely different greeting, not trying to scratch out (and really Xmas looks ridiculous anyway) someone elses word because I don't like it.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[Dandelion]

But why does anyone care what people at a store say? Why? I just don't get it.

 

Jesus does not care about stores. I'm pretty sure the mass consumerism and materialism would make him sick. So I don't think he gives a flying flip what people say to you as you exit a store.

 

Now, if your pastors at church are told to tell you Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas- then talk to me about a war.

 

I'm just really having a hard time with this. So much sorrow, so much dire need in the world, and Christians, supposed followers of Christ- the man who gave everything he had and laid down his life for those in need- are choosing to spend time and energy trying to get private companies to say different words to them.

 

Nope. Don't get it.

 

Because people get hung up on small stuff.  In the grand scheme of things, this doesn't matter.  But people get fixated on it, someone tells them they should get worked up about it, so they do.

[albeto.]

I think it's more a product of Fox News and fear-mongering than a general feeling of Christian violation. 

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[Word Nerd]

I've seen a few posts and shared images about it in my Facebook feed by some family members and friends, but I haven't seen any evidence of a war on Christmas IRL. Then again, I'm not looking for it either and think the foofaraw over it is stupid.

[Dandelion]

I just can't imagine living life that way.

 

That must be incredibly miserable, and exhausting....

I agree.

[Amira]

Nope. But I also don't think that any of the examples listed above, even if they were widespread, would equal a war on Christmas. Xmas is traditional, not trying to x out Christ. Happy Holidays is a cheerful and friendly greeting that was used long before this purported war began. I don't need any sort of religious display in a government building to make my personal Christmas celebration religious.

 

I suppose that spending a few years in a post-Soviet country where many religious and cultural holidays were actually outlawed for decades makes me see people who think that Christmas is threatened in the US as being a little hysterical.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[NicAnn]

Christmas itself is a war on "Christmas". I mean, most of the people complaining, aren't exactly having an old fashioned celebration of the birth of Christ. If people don't want it secularized then they should stop participating in the process.

 

Full disclosure- I'm a Christian that doesn't believe in celebrating or participating in Christmas.

[NicAnn]

Christmas itself is a war on "Christmas". I mean, most of the people complaining, aren't exactly having an old fashioned celebration of the birth of Christ. If people don't want it secularized then they should stop participating in the process.

 

Full disclosure- I'm a Christian that doesn't believe in celebrating or participating in Christmas.

[albeto.]

Christmas itself is a war on "Christmas". I mean, most of the people complaining, aren't exactly having an old fashioned celebration of the birth of Christ. If people don't want it secularized then they should stop participating in the process.

 

Full disclosure- I'm a Christian that doesn't believe in celebrating or participating in Christmas.

 

What does an old fashioned celebration of the birth of Christ look like?

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

No I don't see it, likely because it doesn't exist.

[Bootsie]

I live in what many would consider a fairly conservative, Christian area and I have seen examples of the secularization of Christmas.  When my kids were in PS a few years ago, there was a big uproar about the "Holiday" music program.  There was one song that they were going to sing that had the word "Christmas" in it--it wasn't a religious song, it simply had something along the lines of "it's the Christmas time of year."  The administration removed the song from the program.  However, Jewish songs to celebrate Hanukkah and songs about Kwanza were allowed.  Parents were told that if they said "Merry Christmas" they would be asked to leave the school.  

 

A friend who was visiting her daughter's classroom at another elementary school in town was asked by the principal to remove her earrings that were stars that she was wearing with a red sweater in the month of December.  She was told that religious jewelry wasn't allowed in the school because of the separation of church and state.

[Word Nerd]

Foofaraw- now that's an interesting word! Is it real, or autocorrect created? ;)

It's one of my favorite words!

[mom31257]

The only war I ever see is from people who think it shouldn't be celebrated because it was originally a pagan holiday and has pagan traditions mixed in.

 

A tree may be worshiped by a pagan,but that doesn't mean I worship it. It is a fun family tradition that reminds me of all the blessings in my life. I don't bow to it or pray to it.

[StaceyinLA]

I think it exists in the form of some stores naming Christmas trees holiday trees and calling things "holiday" versus Christmas. I dislike it because I see Hanukkah and Kwanzaa items that aren't being lumped into "holiday" anything, and I think it is a very anti-Christian society chipping away little by little at Christian beliefs and practices.

 

It actually makes me sick that a society constantly spouting tolerance for everything under the sun has so little for Christianity.

 

Sorry - this just struck a nerve after something I read earlier today. Stepping off now.

[mom31257]

I live in what many would consider a fairly conservative, Christian area and I have seen examples of the secularization of Christmas. When my kids were in PS a few years ago, there was a big uproar about the "Holiday" music program. There was one song that they were going to sing that had the word "Christmas" in it--it wasn't a religious song, it simply had something along the lines of "it's the Christmas time of year." The administration removed the song from the program. However, Jewish songs to celebrate Hanukkah and songs about Kwanza were allowed. Parents were told that if they said "Merry Christmas" they would be asked to leave the school.

 

A friend who was visiting her daughter's classroom at another elementary school in town was asked by the principal to remove her earrings that were stars that she was wearing with a red sweater in the month of December. She was told that religious jewelry wasn't allowed in the school because of the separation of church and state.

Wow, what nonsense!

[albeto.]

I live in what many would consider a fairly conservative, Christian area and I have seen examples of the secularization of Christmas.  When my kids were in PS a few years ago, there was a big uproar about the "Holiday" music program.  There was one song that they were going to sing that had the word "Christmas" in it--it wasn't a religious song, it simply had something along the lines of "it's the Christmas time of year."  The administration removed the song from the program.  However, Jewish songs to celebrate Hanukkah and songs about Kwanza were allowed.  Parents were told that if they said "Merry Christmas" they would be asked to leave the school.  

 

A friend who was visiting her daughter's classroom at another elementary school in town was asked by the principal to remove her earrings that were stars that she was wearing with a red sweater in the month of December.  She was told that religious jewelry wasn't allowed in the school because of the separation of church and state.

 

Personally, I'd like to see some objective instances. Hearsay isn't really helpful. I find it highly doubtful star earings and a red sweater would be a contraband combination.  Also, just as a heads up, your first example is one of secularizing public school, not Christmas itself. 

[nmoira]

I think it exists in the form of some stores naming Christmas trees holiday trees and calling things "holiday" versus Christmas. I dislike it because I see Hanukkah and Kwanzaa items that aren't being lumped into "holiday" anything, and I think it is a very anti-Christian society chipping away little by little at Christian beliefs and practices.

 

They aren't "lumped into it" because they get their own discrete aisles (or shelf) in a sea of Christmas.

[albeto.]

It actually makes me sick that a society constantly spouting tolerance for everything under the sun has so little for Christianity.

 

Sorry - this just struck a nerve after something I read earlier today. Stepping off now.

 

I don't mean to poke at a nerve, so if you don't want to reply, I'll understand, but I'm curious about this idea that there is so little tolerance for Christianity. More than 3/4 of Americans identify as Christians. Congress is comprised of mostly Christians, churches and Christian organizations lobby for public policy to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars per year to motivate laws that reflect Christian beliefs (such as limitations on marriage, school education, etc). In what way do you see intolerance? Or are you referring to personal experiences, like fewer people supporting Christian rhetoric? Can you help me understand?

[Laurie4b]

I think it's actually a result of a culture shift. The US is much more heterogeneous with respect to religion than it used to be. So I think it's actually true that there are aspects of Christmas that Christians, particularly older ones  (that's who I primarily hear it from) , have been used to all their lives that are changing-- at least in some places. Because they have lost something they used to have, there is a perception that it has been taken. (I find this is true with respect to other things; for instance, what used to be considered proper etiquette wasn't as debatable 30 years ago. It was much more homogenous than it is today in several areas.)  I think that's what the perception of a "war" is about. I think people on different sides both do things to rev it up.

 

As a Christian, I think the real "war on Christmas" from a religious standpoint is the level of consumerism around the holiday. Cultural expectations such as buy a lot of gifts even for people who need nothing, bake a lot of cookies, decorate your house just so, etc.  can take up the time that might otherwise be spent focusing on Christ. Consumerism among Christians does a lot more to take the Christ out of Christmas than anything else I can think of.

 

I'm not against some of the cultural aspects, but many people, whether particularly religious or not, feel a lot of pressure during the Christmas holidays because there is so much you're "supposed to do" and there are such pressures to spend money you may not really have.

 

 

[StaceyinLA]

No. What I mean is you'd never find anyone downplaying Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. While you might hear a "Happy holidays" instead of a "Merry Christmas," you'll not hear that in place of Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. I haven't seen a Menorah called a "holiday lamp."

[nmoira]

I'm not against some of the cultural aspects, but many people, whether particularly religious or not, feel a lot of pressure during the Christmas holidays because there is so much you're "supposed to do" and their are such pressures to spend money you may not really have.

 

But it's not new. So much of what we're "supposed to do" comes to us from Victorian England, a (relatively) new and increasingly industrialized and urbanized society putting on the trappings of the country. Me, I'd prefer Hogmanay... Well maybe in my youth; I'm not sure I could stay up that late anymore.

[nmoira]

No. What I mean is you'd never find anyone downplaying Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. While you might hear a "Happy holidays" instead of a "Merry Christmas," you'll not hear that in place of Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. I haven't seen a Menorah called a "holiday lamp."

 

And I've never seen a Nativity set called a Doll Holiday Playhouse/Farm. The tree is actually not originally Christian, which is why many Christians eschew it.

[Mergath]

No. What I mean is you'd never find anyone downplaying Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. While you might hear a "Happy holidays" instead of a "Merry Christmas," you'll not hear that in place of Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. I haven't seen a Menorah called a "holiday lamp."

 

That doesn't even make any sense.  I mean, how would you know someone is saying "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas, as opposed to Happy Hanukkah or Kwanzaa?  And the whole point of saying Happy Holidays is that it incorporates ALL of the holidays.  So when people say it, they aren't saying it instead of Merry Christmas.  They're just wishing you a Merry Christmas in addition to a happy everything else.  

 

I will never understand the outrage some of you feel at having someone wish you happiness for a few extra days during the winter.

[Amy in NH]

I think it is a contrived story to serve the interests of particular sensational media outlets.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[Ellie]

Yes. It is very subtle, but yes, although not as much here in Central Texas as in California.

 

We used to live in San Jose, California. The city banned a nativity scene at its Christmas in the Park event, a nativity scene which had been part of the event for many years; curiously, across the from where most of the Christmas displays are set up, there's a monument to a Mexican god of some sort.

 

A local shopping center sets up a "Community Tree" instead of a Christmas tree. I guess the owners don't want to offend non-Christians by calling it a "Christmas" tree, even though the majority of performers at the lighting ceremony do traditional religious songs (e.g., O Come, All Ye Faithful), not merely holiday songs (Sleigh Ride).

 

And of course, as others have mentioned, there are "holiday cards" instead of Christmas cards, even though the cards have Christmas trees and other distinctly Christmas references (even if not religious).

[Joanne]

I see a lot of Merry XMas around here and hear a lot of Happy Holidays. The Happy Holidays doesn't annoy me, but the Xmas does. I don't see a need to X out the word Christ in Christmas. That seems pointed and nasty. I say Happy Holidays because I'm not hugely into Christmas and wasn't raised that way but then I'm using a completely different greeting, not trying to scratch out (and really Xmas looks ridiculous anyway) someone elses word because I don't like it.

Xmas has been a known and acceptable shortened version of Christmas for decades. It is not an insult or commentary.

[StaceyinLA]

I don't mean to poke at a nerve, so if you don't want to reply, I'll understand, but I'm curious about this idea that there is so little tolerance for Christianity. More than 3/4 of Americans identify as Christians. Congress is comprised of mostly Christians, churches and Christian organizations lobby for public policy to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars per year to motivate laws that reflect Christian beliefs (such as limitations on marriage, school education, etc). In what way do you see intolerance? Or are you referring to personal experiences, like fewer people supporting Christian rhetoric? Can you help me understand?

The idea that congress is composed of mostly Christians seems laughable, considering they rarely support anything of a Christian nature. I'm talking about happenings over time such as trying to remove "under God" from the pledge, cities being made to remove Ten Commandments and nativities from various locations, news stations always being very slanted against Christianity, trying to edge out Christmas in favor of "holiday," and basically just gradually chiseling away at the foundation of faith our country was founded.

 

Of course there are Christian lobbies that are pushing for laws, but they aren't necessarily succeeding. They have plenty of staunch opponents.

 

I guess it's just an overall picture. I feel like there is much more mocking of Christianity, and no one seems to say much about the mocking like they would if it were about something more "politically correct."

 

Let me add that I do not consider myself a fundamental Christian. I have some very far right beliefs, but I'm more middle of the road in areas a lot of my Christian friends are not. It is also late and my thoughts aren't as coherent as I'd like them to be. I do apologize for that.

[StaceyinLA]

That doesn't even make any sense. I mean, how would you know someone is saying "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas, as opposed to Happy Hanukkah or Kwanzaa? And the whole point of saying Happy Holidays is that it incorporates ALL of the holidays. So when people say it, they aren't saying it instead of Merry Christmas. They're just wishing you a Merry Christmas in addition to a happy everything else.

 

I will never understand the outrage some of you feel at having someone wish you happiness for a few extra days during the winter.

It makes sense because you hear or see the words Happy Hanukkah, but where Merry Christmas might've been written, you would see Happy Holidays. Seriously? If I see a card with a Menorah on it, it's gonna say Happy Hanukkah. If I see a card with a Christmas tree or reindeer, and it says Happy Holidays, I'm not going to assume that could also be used for Hannukah or Kwanzaa, wouldn't send it to my Jewish friends, and don't understand the need to send something like that if not for Christmas.

[PrairieSong]

Someone on Facebook was upset because people say Happy Holidays when it *should be* Merry Christmas. I pointed out that the word holiday actually means holy day, even though many people don't mean it that way. Also, if you try to force people or institutions to say and/or write Merry Christmas, it certainly doesn't mean they'll attach the same meaning to it that Christians do. I don't understand getting all militant about it. If you're Christian, celebrate the holiday in a way that honors Christ and is relevant to your faith. Treat others the way Jesus would want you to...which for me includes smiling and returning a greeting whether it is Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, etc.

 

My personal opinion is that Season's Greetings is kind of lame because it doesn't even wish the person happy anything, but I don't see it as evil.

[StaceyinLA]

And I've never seen a Nativity set called a Doll Holiday Playhouse/Farm. The tree is actually not originally Christian, which is why many Christians eschew it.

We aren't talking about Christians who choose to not celebrate Christmas with a tree. We are talking about society eliminating Christmas in favor of "Holiday." I see that as quite different.

[Liz CA]

But why does anyone care what people at a store say? Why? I just don't get it.

 

Jesus does not care about stores. I'm pretty sure the mass consumerism and materialism would make him sick. So I don't think he gives a flying flip what people say to you as you exit a store.

 

Now, if your pastors at church are told to tell you Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas- then talk to me about a war.

 

I'm just really having a hard time with this. So much sorrow, so much dire need in the world, and Christians, supposed followers of Christ- the man who gave everything he had and laid down his life for those in need- are choosing to spend time and energy trying to get private companies to say different words to them.

 

Nope. Don't get it.

 

I am with you. Christians often fight the "wrong" battle in my opinion. We are supposed to represent Christ's love and mercy to others and lead lives that are not in blatant opposition to the ten commandments. I shout loudly "Merry Christmas," when I leave a store and nobody has ever stopped me and asked me not to. I would not be offended if someone else shouted Happy Hanukkah.

 

[Mergath]

Yes. It is very subtle, but yes, although not as much here in Central Texas as in California.

 

We used to live in San Jose, California. The city banned a nativity scene at its Christmas in the Park event, a nativity scene which had been part of the event for many years; curiously, across the from where most of the Christmas displays are set up, there's a monument to a Mexican god of some sort.

 

A local shopping center sets up a "Community Tree" instead of a Christmas tree. I guess the owners don't want to offend non-Christians by calling it a "Christmas" tree, even though the majority of performers at the lighting ceremony do traditional religious songs (e.g., O Come, All Ye Faithful), not merely holiday songs (Sleigh Ride).

 

And of course, as others have mentioned, there are "holiday cards" instead of Christmas cards, even though the cards have Christmas trees and other distinctly Christmas references (even if not religious).

 

But the majority of your examples are attempts to include the other holidays that take place at this time of year.  I still fail to see how including other faiths is somehow a war on your own.

[nmoira]

We aren't talking about Christians who choose to not celebrate Christmas with a tree. We are talking about society eliminating Christmas in favor of "Holiday." I see that as quite different.

 

And the nativity sets? And angels? And the millions of dollars of religious Christmas music sold every year? Heck Barbra Streisand has at least one Christmas album.

 

I don't get Christians who simultaneously complain about the secularization of Christmas, the celebrating of a cultural Christmas AND about those who say "Happy Holidays;" the commercialization of the Christmas season AND a (perceived) lack of Christianity in the commercialization of the season. Which is it?

[Mergath]

It makes sense because you hear or see the words Happy Hanukkah, but where Merry Christmas might've been written, you would see Happy Holidays. Seriously? If I see a card with a Menorah on it, it's gonna say Happy Hanukkah. If I see a card with a Christmas tree or reindeer, and it says Happy Holidays, I'm not going to assume that could also be used for Hannukah or Kwanzaa, wouldn't send it to my Jewish friends, and don't understand the need to send something like that if not for Christmas.

 

So basically, you're angry because I, as a person of primarily Scandinavian descent, won't celebrate the traditions of my ancestors which the people of your faith stole for conversion purposes in the way that you tell me I should.  That about sum it up?

[nmoira]

Amazon search (entire store):

 

Christmas: 

Showing 1 - 16 of 6,916,518 Results

 

Hanukkah

Showing 1 - 16 of 49,874 Results

 

Kwanzaa

Showing 1 - 16 of 2,860 Results

 

Holiday

Showing 1 - 16 of 3,498,118 Results

[StaceyinLA]

I'm not militant, but the op was whether or not it was noticeable. I just happen to believe it goes along with other ways society has worked to remove Christianity from the mainstream when they want tolerance to everything else.

[nmoira]

I'm not militant, but the op was whether or not it was noticeable. I just happen to believe it goes along with other ways society has worked to remove Christianity from the mainstream when they want tolerance to everything else.

 

Who is coordinating this?

[StaceyinLA]

And the nativity sets? And angels? And the millions of dollars of religious Christmas music sold every year? Heck Barbra Streisand has at least one Christmas album.

 

I don't get Christians who simultaneously complain about the secularization of Christmas, the celebrating of a cultural Christmas AND about those who say "Happy Holidays;" the commercialization of the Christmas season AND a (perceived) lack of Christianity in the commercialization of the season. Which is it?

Well first off, I never complained about commercialization of Christmas. I answered the op's question in a truthful manner based on what I have seen in my area. We celebrate with Santa because I enjoy giving. I don't see a Biblical mandate to celebrate Jesus' birth, although I find it worth celebrating, so I do.

 

The reason it bothers me is because I think it's part of a bigger push to edge Christianity out of the mainstream no matter how many "Christmas" items you can find on Amazon.

[nmoira]

But the majority of your examples are attempts to include the other holidays that take place at this time of year.  I still fail to see how including other faiths is somehow a war on your own.

 

I think that is the point for some, that Christians now "own" these symbols so adapting their use in any way is a challenge to Christianity.

[Mergath]

I think that is the point for some, that Christians now "own" these symbols so adapting their use in any way is a challenge to Christianity.

 

Which is ironic in the extreme when you consider where most of the symbols came from in the first place.

[albeto.]

The idea that congress is composed of mostly Christians seems laughable, considering they rarely support anything of a Christian nature. I'm talking about happenings over time such as trying to remove "under God" from the pledge, cities being made to remove Ten Commandments and nativities from various locations, news stations always being very slanted against Christianity, trying to edge out Christmas in favor of "holiday," and basically just gradually chiseling away at the foundation of faith our country was founded.

 

Of course there are Christian lobbies that are pushing for laws, but they aren't necessarily succeeding. They have plenty of staunch opponents.

 

I guess it's just an overall picture. I feel like there is much more mocking of Christianity, and no one seems to say much about the mocking like they would if it were about something more "politically correct."

 

Let me add that I do not consider myself a fundamental Christian. I have some very far right beliefs, but I'm more middle of the road in areas a lot of my Christian friends are not. It is also late and my thoughts aren't as coherent as I'd like them to be. I do apologize for that.

 

In this year, of the 533 members of Congress, 299 identified as Protestant Christians. That makes up 56.1% of the population of Congress, as opposed to 48% of Americans who identify as Protestant Christians. 163 identified as Catholic (30.6% of Congress, 22% of the US). You can see the stats here. 

 

According to Pew Research,

 

The number of organizations engaged in religious lobbying or religion-related advocacy in Washington, D.C., has increased roughly fivefold in the past four decades, from fewer than 40 in 1970 to more than 200 today. These groups collectively employ at least 1,000 people in the greater Washington area and spend at least $350 million a year on efforts to influence national public policy. As a whole, religious advocacy organizations work on about 300 policy issues. For most of the past century, religious advocacy groups in Washington focused mainly on domestic affairs. Today, however, roughly as many groups work only on international issues as work only on domestic issues, and nearly two-thirds of the groups work on both. These are among the key findings of a new study by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life that examines a total of 216 religion-related advocacy groups operating in the nation’s capital.

 

The reason I link these is to show how the data suggests that political influence has increased in the passing decades, not decreased. The laws being pushed are certainly getting pushback, I'll agree with you there, but I think that's because there's an increased skepticism about the claims that the Christian religion has better things to offer, and that translates to people voting for public policy that reflects that skepticism. I suspect this skepticism, and resulting lack of continued support, is being interpreted as an attack. I appreciate your explanations, too, so thanks.  :)