s/o Those of you that think gas prices should equal Europe's

[SKL]

Well, I'm not going to move out of my paid-off comfy house just because someone thinks I should take a bus or ride a bike everywhere.  And that's what would have to happen for things to really change around here in the short run.  Change has to be worked into the development stage.  Meaning the future new developments might have a chance of being sensibly laid out.  But there will still be many everyday people needing to drive every day.

 

Currently in my neck of the woods, most of the neighborhoods that would be physically walk/bike friendly are too crime-ridden for my tastes.  As in, people being held up at gunpoint rather frequently.  Not my cup of tea.

[SKL]

If you can reduce your car usage by x%, you can tolerate that much of an increase in gas prices without problems.

 

Just because it isn't going to kill us doesn't mean the government should demand more of our money.  Personally I think I pay enough taxes.

 

[Carrie12345]

It would be bad here. This is a commuter area, with commutes being 1-2 hours long. Each way.

The commuter busses (which you have to drive to and can only use if you work very structured hours) already cost $100/wk. Median income is pretty low here, so it's a hefty chunk of change.

[ocelotmom]

I agree.

 

I don't want to pay more taxes without getting more for it.  That's the point isn't it?

 

I agree. If the increase is going into some black hole of 1%ers and military, I'm going to resent it. And if this thread is simply about a hypothetical voluntary gas price increase, I agree.

 

But since gas prices have quadrupled to quintupled in my adult life (and I'm not that old!) it isn't hypothetical, and "I don't like it" isn't an effective answer.

[LibraryLover]

 

My argument was mostly that we were discussing the Cadillac of bikes.  I don't have the Cadillac of budgets.  It reminds me of the the discussion we once had here about a guy who bragged about how he could so successfully live in a very small space, but it turned out he had features in his apartment that weren't the sort of thing many people could afford making it downright luxurious to live in his small space.

 

I agree that those bikes are very costly, and not workable in many areas. However, if they do work for the terrain, it's not a bad investment to make. You don't have to buy gas, no high insurance premiums, and repairs would be less costly. Further, many people who live in major cities (NYC, fi) don't own cars. If they are leaving town for a vacation etc., they will rent a car.  Even the Cadillac of bikes is less costly in the long run than any car.  This wouldn't have worked for me. I know I could not have hauled my children in a bike that heavy, in my particular town.  (Although I was able to pull them in a bike trailer, which is much cheaper. I almost forgot about that. It was still heavy, and hills were not my friend.  I did try to avoid the steep ones ;))   I'm just biking myself these days, and I got the lightest bike that would work for me.

 

I don't believe this is the answer, but it could be useful for some people, and just one of many options. I know a family in NYC who has a similar setup (although they only have one child. Let me go look for that link.)

 

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/interview-no-impact-man-colin-95351

[Jane in NC]

Well, I'm not going to move out of my paid-off comfy house just because someone thinks I should take a bus or ride a bike everywhere. 

I don't believe that anyone has asked you to do so. 

 

There are people though who are asking for more bike and pedestrian friendly communities.  I volunteered when my community updated its last Land Use Plan in order to help create a future that incorporates more bike paths, sidewalks, parks, etc. in our town. Like others, I believe that change comes at the grass roots level.

 

 

[Venia]

I am insanely jealous of those in cities and towns that have fantastic public transportation and enough jobs and housing in those towns to support their populations. Most of the US simply is too spread out and does not have the infrastructure in place.

 

Just look at Los Angeles, CA. You would think that a dense city like that would have enough infrastructure to support mass public transportation. Guess what? They have NO mass subway system. The tunnels were there and running at one point, but the AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY bought up the tunnels and shut them down. Why would it be fair to the public to tax the bageezus out of gas, when the automotive industry was the driving force behind fuel consumption over economy?

 

Increasing the price of gas in the US would not just be devastating to those who live and work here. Imagine what it would do to the price of FOOD exported around the world. That food has to be transported to be exported. Devastating, indeed.

[LibraryLover]

I agree we can't keep doing what we've been doing. It is not sustainable.

 

I just did a Google Image search on bikes in  US cities. Check it out. A lot of folks all over the US are riding their bikes to work etc. Chicagoland, San Fran, NYC. It's a fun look at what regular folks are doing, with kids, and without.

 

Bikes are just one piece of the puzzle, of course. There is also safety in numbers. Bike with friends if you can. Those pix are my favorites.

 

Here's a link to whet your whistle. :)

 

www.bicycling.com/news/featured-stories/bicyclings-top-50

[LibraryLover]

Sparkly, I added a link about bike friendly cities. It's worth a read. :)

 

Change can come on tiptoe...

 

;) Here's a link for used hybrids:

 

http://www.toyota101.com/Preowned-Inventory-2.aspx?ajax_t=1375708257378&make=Toyota&page=preowned-inventory-2&hyperlinkargument=page&currentpage=1&pagesize=30&virtualpageindex=0&numberofvisiblepages=10&sortitem=6&model=Prius&sortdirection=True

 

Not cheap, but perhaps not totally impossible.  Full disclosure: I own a Toyota mini van. It's 10 years old and has 150 k miles on it. I plan to drive it into the ground. When it goes, I plan on electric/hybrid. Unless I hit the lottery today. ;) Then I will give my car to a large family and purchase the electric. Wait. If I hit the lottery, I can buy the big family a Tesla. :)

 

Big day ahead!

 

[Χά�ων]

Something else to think on: Someone has to grow and raise the food to feed those who live in the city. While I think backyard chickens should be allowed everywhere and yards should be used to grow food, not just grass, not everyone is able or willing to do this. We have a dozen calves on our property, they will be dinner for many people. Someone has to be out here to care for them. When I plant for the CSA, I have to be here, I have to ready the ground, plant the seeds and care for and harvest the produce. These things will not magically happen if I, and my neighbors move to the city.

[LibraryLover]

I have to laugh at the advertisement for a joint health product.  I'd probably need that.  LOL

 

Those are all major cities.  So I'm not surprised.  I don't live in a major city.  Just a regular city. 

 

lol

 

I liked the story about Miami. Hopeful.

[Χά�ων]

There was a story on NPR about the high number of city dwellers who give up their chickens to animal rescue shelters because oops..they didn't realize that chickens only lay eggs for 2 years, but can live for 10. 

 

Definitely not for everyone!

 

Have a link? The stories in the city near me is that people are having to give up their roosters because of city zoning. The shelters here are overrun with roosters but have no hens.

 

As for when they are past their prime: Chicken Soup.  

[Haiku]

These things will not magically happen if I, and my neighbors move to the city.

 

No one is saying that everyone has to move to a pedestrian-, bike-, and public transit-friendly city or live in well-planned suburban or small-town communities. I don't think anyone believes that will ever happen. I don't think anyone wants that to happen. What we are saying (and I feel like a broken record here) is that if everyone in US tries to retain their current lifestyles, it's not sustainable. Changes will have to come, either gradually (preferable) or quickly (not preferable). Of course we need farmers. Of course some people will choose to live in the boonies. Of course people will still drive cars. No one is talking about banning cars or forcing people off their land. We are talking about making changes to make more sustainable lifestyles easier. People also have to recognize that their choices come with consequences. Living in the city is not a utopian lifestyle, and we (personally) have made trade-offs to be here. People who choose to live in rural areas have to accept that this choices comes with disadvantages, as well, one of which will inevitably be rising fuel prices. We cannot shield everyone in this country from reality just because some want to make choices with no consequences. We also can't base our long-term planning on the outliers. 

[LibraryLover]

It's wasteful to not eat the roos. Not everyone is vegetarian.

[mommymilkies]

Everyone agrees, but many people want this fact to change.

Oh, I would LOVE for it to change.  I love public transportation.  But when you live in the boonies and have no choice, rising gas prices aren't going to help. kwim? Until we get better public transport in place, it would be devastating. 

[Crimson Wife]

What could be done to help encourage development of more fuel-efficient vehicles? Tax luxury gas-guzzlers and use the proceeds to subsidize the cost of hybrids. There used to be a tax credit of something like $3.5k for the purchase of hybrids (my parents got one for their Prius and Camry Hybrid) but it expired at the end of 2010. Any personal vehicle (e.g. not with commercial plates) costing over $35k and getting <18 mpg should have to pay the gas guzzler tax. And unlike the current tax that exempts SUV's and pickups, it would be on ALL vehicles. So if my neighbor decides to trade in his Escalade for a newer model, he would have to cough up the tax that would go to help regular middle-class families better afford a Prius or other hybrid.

[LibraryLover]

No sweat.  The first million dollar parking spot is now on the market.

 

This one was only a quarter, but a few years ago.

 

Ah, the 1%ers.

[ocelotmom]

Have a link? The stories in the city near me is that people are having to give up their roosters because of city zoning. The shelters here are overrun with roosters but have no hens.

 

As for when they are past their prime: Chicken Soup.  

 

I've heard that a lot about roosters, too.

 

Everyone can send their spare roosters to us. We'll put them to good use. Unfortunately, where I live, most people share this opinion and there aren't rooster rescue societies.

[mommymilkies]

No one is saying that everyone has to move to a pedestrian-, bike-, and public transit-friendly city or live in well-planned suburban or small-town communities. I don't think anyone believes that will ever happen. I don't think anyone wants that to happen. What we are saying (and I feel like a broken record here) is that if everyone in US tries to retain their current lifestyles, it's not sustainable. Changes will have to come, either gradually (preferable) or quickly (not preferable). Of course we need farmers. Of course some people will choose to live in the boonies. Of course people will still drive cars. No one is talking about banning cars or forcing people off their land. We are talking about making changes to make more sustainable lifestyles easier. People also have to recognize that their choices come with consequences. Living in the city is not a utopian lifestyle, and we (personally) have made trade-offs to be here. People who choose to live in rural areas have to accept that this choices comes with disadvantages, as well, one of which will inevitably be rising fuel prices. We cannot shield everyone in this country from reality just because some want to make choices with no consequences. We also can't base our long-term planning on the outliers. 

Reality? Farmers are paid crap and not everyone likes big cities.  Big cities are often not sustainable.  Many in rural areas farm, garden, and live pretty darn sustainably.  But when food prices drop, crops fail, and big companies buy up land, people are forced out.  I'm pretty sure people in rural areas already know about the consequences and positives of living rurally. What about the trade offs for the cities?  When only the rich can live in the rural areas, or they're cut off and isolated because nobody can afford to travel, then how is that going to work?  Why not work on more sustainable fuel supplies instead of ignoring the "outliers" for the country's long term planning?  Really?  

 

15% of the country lives in rural areas.  It must be all our fault.  :huh:  What about the 51% in suburban areas?  So only ~34% live in urban areas.  They obviously are who we should make policies for instead of the ~66% that are outliers. 

[Χά�ων]

Um yeah that is what I thought too!  I doubt farms keep their chickens hanging around as pets.

 

I could not find it on NPR for some reason, but I googled and found a few articles.  Here is one:

 

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/recent-trend-leads-excess-chickens-local-shelters/nbTPd/

 

Doesn't say if they were hens or roosters. If they are hens, then yes it could be because did not know what they were getting into. If they are roosters then that is another issue and not distinguishing between the two is a sign of poor journalism.

 

I find it funny that they talk about turning the birds over to, among other places, a "sanctuary".

[Haiku]

You have completely misunderstood what I am saying. But I can't think of any other ways to express myself, so I have to bow out now. Just please, consider the fact that in countries where the population as a whole has made sustainability more of a priority then we in this country have, the standard of living is generally higher. It can be done, and people find ways to do it.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Reality? Farmers are paid crap and not everyone likes big cities. Big cities are often not sustainable. Many in rural areas farm, garden, and live pretty darn sustainably. But when food prices drop, crops fail, and big companies buy up land, people are forced out. I'm pretty sure people in rural areas already know about the consequences and positives of living rurally. What about the trade offs for the cities? When only the rich can live in the rural areas, or they're cut off and isolated because nobody can afford to travel, then how is that going to work? Why not work on more sustainable fuel supplies instead of ignoring the "outliers" for the country's long term planning? Really?

 

15% of the country lives in rural areas. It must be all our fault. :huh: What about the 51% in suburban areas? So only ~34% live in urban areas. They obviously are who we should make policies for instead of the ~66% that are outliers.

When I used the term outlier, I did so while discussing mass transportation. I was talking about population outliers, not passing judgment on a lifestyle. People were talking about two different things (or more sometimes). Personally, I was talking about what could be done to begin to diminish the problem around population centers, and many people responded with why they can't or won't leave rural areas. But that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

No one expects us all to converge on cities and abandon farming and rural life. I mean, are robots going to farm? Green robots? :tongue_smilie: Also, it is a great way of life! I myself secretly harbor hope of inheriting MIL's boonies. And I hope there are green tractor options when and if I do (and I don't mean John Deere, LOL).

[Alte Veste Academy]

Why not work on more sustainable fuel supplies

Also, I agree with this. And this is where many of us were in the beginning, the whole premise for this conversation. If we stopped spending money subsidizing gas and started spending that money subsidizing research and long-term strategic planning, I would be thrilled. BUT! LOL That would raise gas prices so, again, slow movement in that direction would be required.

 

And I don't know how political this is, but I still harbor resentment that the Clinton administration, with Al Gore so seemingly focused on the environment, didn't do a JFKesque equivalent of we will be on the moon by the end of the decade about clean, efficient energy. :leaving:

[TechWife]

Hmmm. Idk. The main city here is constantly talking about revitalizing downtown. Downtown freaking sucks. Most people hate going there and avoid it. But they keep putting crap down there anyways. New baseball stadium, performing arts center... Blahblahblah.

.

The problem is with their model. No one lives in a baseball stadium or performing arts center. The types of communities people in this thread are talking about are one that have dense housing, grocery stores, dry cleaners, day care, playgrounds, ballparks, etc.. As others have stated - it's a different mindset and it doesn't happen overnight. Urban planning is just that, planning. The thing is, you can't just plan, you have to execute the plan.

[SKL]

 Just please, consider the fact that in countries where the population as a whole has made sustainability more of a priority then we in this country have, the standard of living is generally higher. It can be done, and people find ways to do it.

 

That depends on how you define higher standard of living.

 

I don't have a problem with taxing big gas hogs, with exceptions for people who have such big families that it's either that or travel in two cars.  Of course, that would shut down the US auto industry, and that would pretty much be the end of trade unions.  Both of which wouldn't bother me too much at this point, considering how both of those are practically an arm of liberal government nowadays.

 

And why not tax consumerism, of which folks in big "walkable" cities are also often guilty, and which is responsible for quite a bit of the fuel usage in this country?  I mean, if you're going to tax anyone.

[LibraryLover]

I fully understand that it's dangerous to walk/bike in some areas. We need more bike lanes and more sidewalks. That's doable.

 

I do wonder why people think a mile is too far to walk. If it's safe enough to walk or bike, a mile or 2 or 3 on a bike is not far. People join gyms to walk/bike/run further than that. My dd bikes to school 2-3 days a week.  It's 1.5 miles. It doesn't take long at all.

[SKL]

Also, I agree with this. And this is where many of us were in the beginning, the whole premise for this conversation. If we stopped spending money subsidizing gas and started spending that money subsidizing research and long-term strategic planning, I would be thrilled. BUT! LOL That would raise gas prices so, again, slow movement in that direction would be required.

 

And I don't know how political this is, but I still harbor resentment that the Clinton administration, with Al Gore so seemingly focused on the environment, didn't do a JFKesque equivalent of we will be on the moon by the end of the decade about clean, efficient energy. :leaving:

 

The government pours a ton of money into renewable fuel projects.  Most of which are clearly unsustainable and not produced in a particularly efficient manner.  They create waste, pollution, corruption, unemployment.  Frankly I don't think the government should be in this at all.  It's more good money after bad.  Give some people an honest profit motive and set them free.  Vote with your pocketbook.  Watch and see what happens.  It can hardly be worse than what the government would do.

 

[Murphy101]

The problem is with their model. No one lives in a baseball stadium or performing arts center. The types of communities people in this thread are talking about are one that have dense housing, grocery stores, dry cleaners, day care, playgrounds, ballparks, etc.. As others have stated - it's a different mindset and it doesn't happen overnight. Urban planning is just that, planning. The thing is, you can't just plan, you have to execute the plan.

Oh they are trying to get that stuff going there too. Problem is, old people aren't much interested in the night life, so that leaves single people they are trying to entice down there. Problem with that is single folks can't afford to live down there. And the few who do, move out pronto as soon as they marry and have kids bc it's just not a family friendly place. No playgrounds that don't have drug pharaoh anima left over from the previous evening for example.

 

I've never met anyone that thought the downtown revitalization is going to work. They've been pushing it and the river development at least since I was in high school and people just aren't buying it. Literally aren't buying it.

[Crimson Wife]

Although the tax credit is of no interest to someone who won't get much of that in return.  What about the poor folk who wants to buy one of those things?  Tax credit is no incentive.

Tax credit, not tax deduction. Tax deductions just reduce a family's tax liability, while tax credits are refundable so even someone with $0 liability would get the full amount of the credit back.

 

A greater number of hybrids purchased new would also mean eventually they would turn up in the used marketplace for those families who want or need to buy a used vehicle.

[Alte Veste Academy]

The government pours a ton of money into renewable fuel projects. Most of which are clearly unsustainable and not produced in a particularly efficient manner. They create waste, pollution, corruption, unemployment. Frankly I don't think the government should be in this at all. It's more good money after bad. Give some people an honest profit motive and set them free. Vote with your pocketbook. Watch and see what happens. It can hardly be worse than what the government would do.

Super! So you are on board with stopping the gas subsidies after all! Peachy! LOL

 

;)

 

I agree with profit motive. But if we are a nation that subsidizes (and we are), I would rather subsidize hope for the future than throw good money after bad on what is destined to to end up in the past.

[LibraryLover]

Roos- roosters. Someone mentioned city folk with old hens or roosters sending them off to sanctuaries. I respect ethical vegetarians,  but not everyone is a vegetarian. Roos and old hens make for nourishing stews and broths.

[Crimson Wife]

I don't have a problem with taxing big gas hogs, with exceptions for people who have such big families that it's either that or travel in two cars.

Toyota already sells a hybrid minivan in Japan called the Estima that gets 47 mpg. http://green.autoblog.com/2013/11/07/toyota-estima-hybrid-minivan/

 

Why are we Americans stuck with minivans getting less than half of that mpg?

[SKL]

I fully understand that it's dangerous to walk/bike in some areas. We need more bike lanes and more sidewalks. That's doable.

 

I do wonder why people think a mile is too far to walk. If it's safe enough to walk or bike, a mile or 2 or 3 on a bike is not far. People join gyms to walk/bike/run further than that. My dd bikes to school 2-3 days a week, It's 1.5 miles. It doesn't take long at all.

 

A mile is not too long to walk physically.  But it takes too long to do it multiple times per day, when you're also working full time, caring for kids, and running a household.

 

Again, in "modern" suburban neighborhoods, it's not like everything is one single 1-mile walk away.  It's a mile south for bread and milk, a mile east for the park, a mile north for the rec center, a mile west for the grocery store / restaurant / drugstore / modest shopping center.  And several miles west for the zoned public elementary school (across two major highways, by the way).  The library is a couple miles in yet another direction.  The nearest serious kid-oriented physical classes are at least 5 miles away.  And if I worked downtown, I would have to walk a couple miles in yet another direction to catch a bus (and the bus only goes to the big city, you can't use it to get around within the suburb.)  Keep in mind that more than half of the time this place is either snow-covered, freezing, or raining.  And even if my kids don't have anything to do, if I have to go somewhere, they have to come with me.  How many miles should they have to walk in the snow so I can run a few errands?  And who's gonna carry all the bags and gear and stuff?  Forget it.  I'd have to give up all of my kids' activities, pull them from their school, and stop going to church.  Visits to the grandparents who live 60 miles away?  Forget it.  And my sister would not be able to come and babysit for me on the weekends.  Family connections are overrated anyway, right?

 

But that's all good because there are way too many people who have a job because people like me use their services.

[Murphy101]

I don't think a mile is too much. My kids could not bike to school from here (it's just busy roads). They don't go to school though. See, I'm saving the environment. I don't drive my kids to school. LOL

I previously said I think 2 mikes with kids and a stroller is right at my limit probably. I used to do that every single day when I was pregnant with my second. And had a 12-15 month old in the stroller. Of course I was also 22 then. Don't know if I could hack it as easily at 40, not pregnant with my 2 and 4 year old. All my teens regularly walk a couples miles 3-5 times a week. They get stopped by cops regularly to "be sure they're okay". *eyeroll* One even asked a son if everything was okay at home. Did he have a parent he could call? Ds18 --? Uh. Yeah? I guess. It's a beautiful day to walk. Is there a problem? Cop ? ---? No, no I guess not. Just wanted to let you know I'd give you a ride or call someone for you. Ds pulls out iPhone and offers to let cop call me if he's really worried. Cop declined.

 

Ds came home and was all, "mom, wth was up with that? It was sooo weird."

 

I'm glad our local PD is so nice, really I am, but as a family we now laugh about son getting pulled over for walking.

[SKL]

Tax credit, not tax deduction. Tax deductions just reduce a family's tax liability, while tax credits are refundable so even someone with $0 liability would get the full amount of the credit back.

 

A greater number of hybrids purchased new would also mean eventually they would turn up in the used marketplace for those families who want or need to buy a used vehicle.

 

Only some tax credits are refundable.  I don't know if the individual fuel ones are or not.

 

[Catwoman]

No sweat. The first million dollar parking spot is now on the market.

 

This one was only a quarter, but a few years ago.

Well, I wouldn't pay a million dollars for a parking space, but $250k isn't terrible for a parking space in a good NYC neighborhood. If you have to pay several hundred dollars a month to rent a space, anyway, you might as well just buy one if it becomes available. Parking costs are just something you have to include in your budget if you want to own a car in NYC.

[Murphy101]

I just wish people who are against this would state what they are for!

 

How do you suggest dealing with this issue ?

 

Someone mentioned the market. You already live in a country with a free market. How do you think they are doing so far?

 

Do you vote for people with a handle on the issue ?

 

Do you deny it's even a problem, now or down the track ?

 

C'mon. Answers. Please :)

I just want to note that I have repeatedly said what I am for and gotten I think zero response to those suggestions. Which I agree is irksome. I don't much care if folks agree with me, nice tho that is of course, but dialog of ideas would at least be nice.

[SKL]

Someone mentioned the market. You already live in a country with a free market. How do you think they are doing so far?

 

 

 

Our government tampers in our so-called "free market" to an incredible degree.

 

[LibraryLover]

Lol, I thought you meant kangaroos!

 

lol I was being US-centric. ;)

[SKL]

Also.

 

How do people square away 'wanting govt to stay out of it ' but also wanting govt to continue to subsidize gas?

 

This one I just don't get.

 

Who said they wanted the government to subsidize gas?

 

[LibraryLover]

A mile is not too long to walk physically.  But it takes too long to do it multiple times per day, when you're also working full time, caring for kids, and running a household.

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn't  thinking all or nothing. I drive sometimes, but throw walking and biking into the mix.

[Crimson Wife]

Only some tax credits are refundable.  I don't know if the individual fuel ones are or not.

Given that the old one expired, there would have to be a new one implemented. That could easily be made refundable. Of course, there would have to be the political will to tax the automakers' "cash cows" of gas-guzzling luxury SUV's and pickups in order to pay for the hybrid credits.

[Mrs Mungo]

*I* don't feel I'm communicating some points well, so I'm going to try again. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment? LOL

 

 

Something else to think on: Someone has to grow and raise the food to feed those who live in the city. While I think backyard chickens should be allowed everywhere and yards should be used to grow food, not just grass, not everyone is able or willing to do this. We have a dozen calves on our property, they will be dinner for many people. Someone has to be out here to care for them. When I plant for the CSA, I have to be here, I have to ready the ground, plant the seeds and care for and harvest the produce. These things will not magically happen if I, and my neighbors move to the city.

I think *most people* can do this. I think it's mostly a matter of being willing and changing local ordinances so that people can have gardens and a couple chickens without getting slapped with fines from HOAs. In the days of Victory Gardens, *most* people had a garden.  

 

 

There was a story on NPR about the high number of city dwellers who give up their chickens to animal rescue shelters because oops..they didn't realize that chickens only lay eggs for 2 years, but can live for 10. 

 

Definitely not for everyone!

 

What in the WORLD? Why are there CHICKEN RESCUES? Why don't they just kill them for food? That is one of the craziest things I've ever heard. When the chicken stops laying, you eat it.

 

 

Living in the city is not a utopian lifestyle, and we (personally) have made trade-offs to be here. People who choose to live in rural areas have to accept that this choices comes with disadvantages, as well, one of which will inevitably be rising fuel prices.

 

I'm clipping your post for the sake of brevity, I hope you don't feel I am taking this out of context. But, I wanted to use it to go back to the point I made about my MIL's town. When she was little (she was born in 1942), her tiny town had a mercantile, feed store, auto repair shop, etc. Now? It doesn't have *anything*. She has to drive 20 miles to a Wal-Mart that is sort of in the middle of a few towns. If fuel prices became too expensive, then you would see those small shops go back into the small towns. How things are *now* in the boonies and those small towns, isn't how it's always been. That's something that has come about within the last 50 years.

 

 

Oh, I would LOVE for it to change.  I love public transportation.  But when you live in the boonies and have no choice, rising gas prices aren't going to help. kwim? Until we get better public transport in place, it would be devastating.

 

Which is why incremental increases with gradual improvement is better than a sudden change, when the issue is forced.

 

 

What could be done to help encourage development of more fuel-efficient vehicles? Tax luxury gas-guzzlers and use the proceeds to subsidize the cost of hybrids. There used to be a tax credit of something like $3.5k for the purchase of hybrids (my parents got one for their Prius and Camry Hybrid) but it expired at the end of 2010. Any personal vehicle (e.g. not with commercial plates) costing over $35k and getting <18 mpg should have to pay the gas guzzler tax. And unlike the current tax that exempts SUV's and pickups, it would be on ALL vehicles. So if my neighbor decides to trade in his Escalade for a newer model, he would have to cough up the tax that would go to help regular middle-class families better afford a Prius or other hybrid.

 

Agreed. In big farm states there are typically tax breaks for driving a pickup or SUV for a business, even when it isn't needed for the business. So, you see lawyers buy a new SUV every year or two for the tax incentives. That sort of thing should end. You should only get a tax break on a pickup for your business if you need it for your business.

 

 

Also, I agree with this. And this is where many of us were in the beginning, the whole premise for this conversation. If we stopped spending money subsidizing gas and started spending that money subsidizing research and long-term strategic planning, I would be thrilled. BUT! LOL That would raise gas prices so, again, slow movement in that direction would be required.

 

And I don't know how political this is, but I still harbor resentment that the Clinton administration, with Al Gore so seemingly focused on the environment, didn't do a JFKesque equivalent of we will be on the moon by the end of the decade about clean, efficient energy. :leaving:

 

I agree.

 

 

I'm so sorry but I don't understand this comment :(

 

 I think by roos she was referring to the roosters in the other post.

 

 

I've never met anyone that thought the downtown revitalization is going to work. They've been pushing it and the river development at least since I was in high school and people just aren't buying it. Literally aren't buying it.

I'm the oldest of my siblings and cousins. My younger cousins spend a lot of time in downtown OKC. That's where most of them work, they go to the movies and restaurants down there, etc. Several of my younger cousins and their friends live down there. I think it is slowly changing down there.

[Julie Smith]

I propose a new mode of transportation. How about rolling? Would suit my laziness. I just lay down and roll to my destination. We could have padded rolling lanes. Maybe the lanes could be more more like conveyor belts. Oh..like the Jetsons!

That is just silly....

 

You could just pander size.

 

:p all you need is a white pant suit and leg warmers.

[LibraryLover]

Or we could use rickshaws.  Would create jobs too.

 

Someone beat you to it. lol

 

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/North_America/United_States_of_America/California/San_Francisco-755471/Transportation-San_Francisco-Bicycle_Rickshaws-BR-1.html

[Crimson Wife]

In big farm states there are typically tax breaks for driving a pickup or SUV for a business, even when it isn't needed for the business. So, you see lawyers buy a new SUV every year or two for the tax incentives. That sort of thing should end. You should only get a tax break on a pickup for your business if you need it for your business.

Wow. There are a lot of businesses that legitimately need a pickup or SUV (agricultural, construction, utilities, etc.) but lawyers that work in offices & courthouses don't.

[SKL]

SKL, my kids walk miles. With bags. Since they were preschoolers. Sure, they complain. I tell them to suck it up - legs were made for walking and it's great for their hearts.

 

Do wee run around less because we actually have to consider the physical cost ? Yes. And I think that's a good thing.

 

When my kids were 1.5 they and I walked 2 miles to the park and back - when we had time for it.  We are hardly wimps.  However, young kids walk kinda slow.  Also, by the time my kids get home from school, it's usually pitch dark around here, meaning their only chance for sustained exercise is to go someplace where that is done indoors.  Walking around the neighborhood in the dark isn't a viable option.  And as far as I'm concerned, neither is being a couch potato.

 

I am sure that when this neighborhood was designed, the designers thought it was a wonderful idea to reduce congestion and traffic by making the residential streets so inaccessable.  They were wrong.  It wasn't my mistake.  Why should I pay for it (more than I already am)?

[Mrs Mungo]

I propose a new mode of transportation.  How about rolling?  Would suit my laziness.  I just lay down and roll to my destination.  We could have padded rolling lanes.  Maybe the lanes could be more more like conveyor belts.  Oh..like the Jetsons!

 

You could get a Segway!

 

 

Or we could use rickshaws.  Would create jobs too.

Or how about something like this:

http://www.humananews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Tampa-Theatre-2.jpg

[Mrs Mungo]

Wow. There are a lot of businesses that legitimately need a pickup or SUV (agricultural, construction, utilities, etc.) but lawyers that work in offices & courthouses don't.

I agree. My aunt is accountant. The tax breaks apply to all vehicles over a certain weight and to all businesses. So, you regularly see lawyers buying a new Escalade every year for the same tax break that farmers or construction workers receive on their farm pick-ups. It's just wrong, IMO.

[Murphy101]

Smacks of having your cake and eating it.

  

 

Completely off topic... But this phrase has always bugged me. Why the heck would anyone have a cake and NOT expect to get to eat it? What is the purpose of uneaten cake?

 

I don't even like cake and I still don't get it.

 

Back to scheduled debate...

 

My younger cousins spend a lot of time in downtown OKC. That's where most of them work, they go to the movies and restaurants down there, etc. Several of my younger cousins and their friends live down there. I think it is slowly changing down there.

Downtown OKC is not downtown ___. ;) I wish they were! For one, it's closer to the hub of activity in OKC, not way off to the side far from where the majority of the population already exists. For another, when OKC folks said they'd do it, they got their ducks in order and it happened. Unlike a certain city that seems to specialize in useless mayors and city councils and notorious fiscal mismanagement.

 

I'm not against any town doing a downtown revitalization. But when the downtown is not longer the central hub and hasn't been for decades, one has to wonder if it wouldn't be wiser/cheaper to make wherever is the central hub the focal point for building centralizing city planning from.