Michelle Duggar pregnant?

[Murphy101]

12 of us here...

 

We can be called oddballs since we have only one, but if you're a Duggar, do you ever get to snuggle in mom n' dad's bed?

Many families do not do that. I never did. My dh never did. My BFF never did. My kids cosleep until they move to their own bed. Then our bed is off limits. We snuggle on sofas and chairs and in the floor. But not our bed.

 

Though really we've never done much lounging in bed to begin with. It's just not our style.

 

Do you ever have that quiet alone time to play or read solo in your room and de-compress?

Sure. All the time. I have one in a room quietly cutting paper dolls out all by herself. Another is in his room reading a book. Another is in a room by herself playing Lord of the Rings online. One fell asleep in the floor next to his dog while watching football after playing paintball with 2 siblings. The others are playing together. Littlest one just raided the pantry and brought me a jar of roasted pumpkin seeds to open for him. He is now snuggled under my blanket in the recliner munching on them.

 

will a Duggar child know how to be alone as a young adult?

It's not been a problem for mine so far.

However dh and I were raised only kids and we hate being alone. *shrug*

 

It's not about numbers.

[Mrs Mungo]

Additionally, the Duggars are on TV promoting themselves as a family. Promoting how wonderful it is that they have a zillion children. Making it look like a great idea!! 

 

So, IMHO, the backstory on how exactly these children are being raised, whether the techniques used to create this image of happy children, happy parents . . . whether those are valid. They are on a "reality" TV show, but those few scripted minutes depict a family that is, presumably, based on my reading of Gothard (SCARY) principles, generated by hours/days/years of child rearing techniques that are abhorrent to many people. Those techniques aren't shown on TV. We don't see the forced "happiness" or the harsh shame-filled religious dogma being crammed into them, or the internal struggles of those children who, one would imagine, have varied dreams and hopes, many of which would generate shaming or shunning if pursued. We don't see the blanket training that involves smacking/HURTing little babies for trying to crawl off their square prisons. 

 

I think presenting a pretty, happy picture in 30 min that is generated by ugly, harsh practices behind the scenes is horrible. I think people wanting to shine light into the backstory is sensible. 

 

recoveringgrace.org has some enlightening and tragic reading for anyone wanting some insights into the ugliness involved in Gothard religion and parenting.

 

 

They stump for politicians even when the politicians don't want their support. Kind of amused that the Cuccinelli campaign had to put out a statement that they did not invite the Duggars to campaign after Jim Bob started making comparisons to the holocaust and Nazis.

 

The Duggars supposedly scrubbed their site of controversial spanking references when they negotiated their deal with TLC. They've also re-edited clips of old X-teen kids specials that referenced blanket training, etc.

 

I agree that the newer shows are edited differently than the old shows. For example, there used to be a LOT more talk about maintaining a pleasant/cheerful countenance. That's sort of been linked with Gothard, which means it has been one of the areas in which criticism has been leveled at them. So, they cut down on that talk *in the show*.  I also agree that their website has been scrubbed of a LOT of stuff that used to be on there. If you can find Duggar discussions on the old old board, then you would see where people quoted stuff about how she weans early so that she can get pregnant again (more recently she has said that her supply decreases when she gets pregnant, but that isn't what the site said before), blanket training and so forth. So, I think when you discuss this, you need to realize that people are looking through very different lenses, depending upon when the person started taking a look at these various issues. 

 

Speaking to the thread in general:

Honestly, I haven't *really* seen anything here that I would consider over-the-top flaming of the Duggars. 

 

And I do agree that attempting to change US policy to make it fit with the Gothard view makes one a VERY big target. 

[HRAAB]

We can be called oddballs since we have only one, but if you're a Duggar, do you ever get to snuggle in mom n' dad's bed? Do you ever have that quiet alone time to play or read solo in your room and de-compress?

 

I don't doubt that there is real value in the skills learned in a giant family, but will a Duggar child know how to be alone as a young adult?

 

My dh grew up in a family of 14 siblings.  He actually craves and needs alone time.  Although he enjoys getting together with friends and family, his private time is very important.  He does fine being alone. 

 

He was lucky in that his parents had 5 acres so there was always room to get away and decompress.  His favorite place was the barn and chicken house.  All the kids have stories of running and jumping into mom and dad's bed when they were frightened.  They're not all small and have the same needs at the same time.  They come one at a time.

 

There are so many different things that enter into family dynamics and size is just one of them.  The only thing my dh's family had in common with the Duggars is that there were a lot of children.  Large families can function very well - as all of my dh's siblings attest to - and sometimes not just as small families can be healthy or not.

[KRG]

Has anyone found out if she is pregnant??

[busymama7]

Blanket training isn't gentle.

 

I just wanted to mention that it can be :) I heard of it as a method to have some quiet time to school the older kids and I have successfully done it with four kids and not used any type of spanking or anything. I just calmly put them back, tell them no when they try to get off and reward them profusely for obeying(all the kids get into Hugging cheering etc)It is not a quick process but jt does work and has saved my sanity numerous times because the littles can play quietly and alone while we do read aloud. It is never more than 30 min a day and at first its more like 3 mins. I don't know how Michelle trained her little ones and if she spanked them or not :( but the idea of a toddler/preschooler learning to sit still and quiet for a few minutes is not outrageous.

[LucyStoner]

I just wanted to mention that it can be :) I heard of it as a method to have some quiet time to school the older kids and I have successfully done it with four kids and not used any type of spanking or anything. I just calmly put them back, tell them no when they try to get off and reward them profusely for obeying(all the kids get into Hugging cheering etc)It is not a quick process but jt does work and has saved my sanity numerous times because the littles can play quietly and alone while we do read aloud. It is never more than 30 min a day and at first its more like 3 mins. I don't know how Michelle trained her little ones and if she spanked them or not :( but the idea of a toddler/preschooler learning to sit still and quiet for a few minutes is not outrageous.

Years ago on their website this was referenced with infants less than a year. Personally I find that whole outlook immoral.

[Murphy101]

Yes. I hate blanket training and have never understood the need for it.

 

Blanket training is typically not a reference used with toddlers and preschoolers. It's usually infants.

[goldberry]

I used to not mind them too much, because they seemed to make it work, even if not in the way I would choose.

 

But now, in my mind, it is selfish to continue to get pregnant if it seriously threatens your health as the mother of all those kids. They need their mom. To risk a serious chance of depriving them of their mom to have another one is selfish and not reasonable.

[Joanne]

I just wanted to mention that it can be :) I heard of it as a method to have some quiet time to school the older kids and I have successfully done it with four kids and not used any type of spanking or anything. I just calmly put them back, tell them no when they try to get off and reward them profusely for obeying(all the kids get into Hugging cheering etc)It is not a quick process but jt does work and has saved my sanity numerous times because the littles can play quietly and alone while we do read aloud. It is never more than 30 min a day and at first its more like 3 mins. I don't know how Michelle trained her little ones and if she spanked them or not :( but the idea of a toddler/preschooler learning to sit still and quiet for a few minutes is not outrageous.

 

Blanket training, as it is used in this context refers to *babies* and *infants* and includes physical punishment.

[Murphy101]

I don't think it's any more "selfish" to risk my health for baby number 10 than baby number 2.

 

Loving someone is risky business.

 

The Dugger children are better provided for, both financially and in familial support, than most families. I'm certain her family would feel a deep loss if she died, but it's not like she would be living the baby in poverty of heart or economics.

 

Aside from that, if her religious beliefs are to not use birth control, I doubt she would ever tell anyone outside her family if they feel done. Because if you can't use birth control and are not open to abstaining, regardless of feelings, the chance however small is still there that they will get pregnant. But they aren't going to get into that with someone over the Internet or on camera and I don't blame them one bit.

[Soror]

I don't think it is more selfish due to the number but is more selfish because the number of pregnancies, her age and health make carrying a baby inherently more risky at this point than it would be for the vast majority of women pregnant w/ their 1st or 2nd child.

[LibraryLover]

ThatHomeschoolDad said:

 

"Over the past 3 years, I have worked with the most astounding nurses whom I could never repay with anything that might compensate them for their professional compassion."

 

Tom, this is beautiful.  Thank you. I am so sorry. I wish you and your family the best.

[Artichoke]

Blanket training, as it is used in this context refers to *babies* and *infants* and includes physical punishment.

Thanks for defining blanket training for this conversation. I'm a mom who has blanket trained two of my four, starting before a year old, without harsh measures. Personally, I think training wee ones to play in a small space is a valuable tool in our mom bag.

 

If anyone is interested, here's how and why we blanket trained;

 

When our third son was born, we had a seven year old, four year old, and newborn. I had already been the nursery route at church with the elder two and didn't want to continue with the newest. Luckily, we went to a pretty laid back church so I kept ds in the service with me in the back. We had a small open area behind the last pew that we chose to sit in. When he got to be a few months old, I began to bring his little fisher price lamb rug for him to play on, and he was happy. When he began to crawl off of it, I decided to teach him to play quietly on a larger baby blanket. We got a few sweet little toys and only played on the blanket with them. I never spanked or swatted, but rather redirected and only allowed the toys on the blanket. To practice, we did this before afternoon nap, while I was making dinner ( the older boys played with him then ), and sometimes in the evening. As ds became a toddler, it was easy to transfer this skill/idea to him sitting in the metal bleachers at a baseball or soccer game-- you know how kids like to sit backwards on the foot part and play with a toy on the seat part. It also came in handy at scout meetings. They loved to sit and play at the long cafeteria tables. When dd came along six years later, we blanket trained again, and it continued to serve our family well.

 

Please don't think we always made our children sit in a small place. We didn't, but it was useful when needed.

[Murphy101]

I don't think it is more selfish due to the number but is more selfish because the number of pregnancies, her age and health make carrying a baby inherently more risky at this point than it would be for the vast majority of women pregnant w/ their 1st or 2nd child.

You do not know that.

 

I have had many many OBs comment after my 5th+ babies that I was/am healthier than most of their patients in their first or second at any age. Her rate of miscarriage will go up, but that's more about age than number of children.

 

That aside, her risk comfort zone is up to her just like any other woman's and isn't any more selfish than those other women.

[SKL]

I guess you guys wouldn't like the fact that I sat my kids on potties long before they could walk (and before one of them could even crawl).  And I also taught them not to touch certain things via a slap on the hand (after many repetitions of "no" and redirection).  At least it was a clear message that they got pretty darn quickly, and without emotional stress.  I have no idea what the Duggars did but if some of it involved a spank at times, big deal.  People who can't tell the difference between an occasional spank and child abuse are the ones who need their heads examined.

[Santi]

nm

[SKL]

Yeah, I thought the first baby was the most risky for the mom.

[Mrs Mungo]

You do not know that.

 

I have had many many OBs comment after my 5th+ babies that I was/am healthier than most of their patients in their first or second at any age. Her rate of miscarriage will go up, but that's more about age than number of children.

 

That aside, her risk comfort zone is up to her just like any other woman's and isn't any more selfish than those other women.

 

Disagree a little. She has multiple c-sections and a history of pre-eclampsia. One has to do with the number of babies born via c-section and the other has to do with her age and particular health history. I'm not saying that every woman her age and/or with her number of births has the same risks, but *she* definitely is at higher risk than your average woman with no history of pre-eclapmsia and no c-sections. I do agree that the number of children she has and/or her use of birth control (or lack thereof)-those are her decisions alone to make, just like every other woman. 

[Santi]

People who can't tell the difference between an occasional spank and child abuse are the ones who need their heads examined.

WOW! Everyone is being respectful on this thread except for you. I disagree with you and a lot of other people on this thread and others but I'm not telling you to get your head examined.

[SKL]

Whether this thread has been respectful depends on whether you think the Duggars deserve any respect.

[Santi]

Whether this thread has been respectful depends on whether you think the Duggars deserve any respect.

I meant being respectful to the people actually viewing the forum, which you're not. And I can't remember every post on this, but the people I have seen have been politely sharing their opinions about her and what people think about her without insulting each other.

[SKL]

Mrs. Duggar is a homeschooler; how do you know she is not viewing this forum?

 

We're talking about human beings here.

[SKL]

I meant being respectful to the people actually viewing the forum, which you're not. And I can't remember every post on this, but the people I have seen have been politely sharing their opinions about her and what people think about her without insulting each other.

 

I see this is your first Duggar / spanking thread on the Hive.  Wait a while.

 

[Murphy101]

Soror did mention age though. Aren't you significantly more likely to have a child with birth defects near 50 or somewhere? That doesn't sound at all responsible to me.

 

edit- and I acknowledge a woman's right to choose how many kids they want what to do. I'm still allowed to express my dislike of her choices.

Okay. *deep breath* Before I get steamed jumping to conclusions...

 

Are you actually suggesting it's irresponsible to have children with birth defects?

 

Hoping you didn't intend it that way.

[LibraryLover]

I'm not insulting her at all. I have always said leave the Duggars be.  Because I am pro-woman, I think each of us has the right to decide how many children we have, or do not have.

[Santi]

Mrs. Duggar is a homeschooler; how do you know she is not viewing this forum?

 

We're talking about human beings here.

I honestly assumed she was busy raising her 19 children, being on tv, etc. I agree she should be treated with respect, and if she shows up and feels she hasn't been I will apologize. I just don't understand why you're so angry about people disrespecting her when you're clearly not going to apologize for blatantly insulting people with differing opinions who are quite likely to read what you've said.

[Santi]

Nm

[Joanne]

I guess you guys wouldn't like the fact that I sat my kids on potties long before they could walk (and before one of them could even crawl).  And I also taught them not to touch certain things via a slap on the hand (after many repetitions of "no" and redirection).  At least it was a clear message that they got pretty darn quickly, and without emotional stress.  I have no idea what the Duggars did but if some of it involved a spank at times, big deal.  People who can't tell the difference between an occasional spank and child abuse are the ones who need their heads examined.

 

 

Who said *anything* about an occassional spank vs. child abuse?

[Santi]

I see this is your first Duggar / spanking thread on the Hive. Wait a while.

 

The fact that other people have been disrespectful before doesn't give you the right to insult people right now.

[LibraryLover]

Mrs. Duggar is a homeschooler; how do you know she is not viewing this forum?

 

 

 

I don't think she is.  (There is a rift in the evolution/creationist hs world.)  However, the MD I see on the show, I like.Those kids are cute  No slams. I do worry if they are restricting their children somehow, and we share different political beliefs but I wish them no ill. Because they chose to be political, it's fair that people will have thoughts.  I have no animosity over the fact they have 19 children. A woman should be able to have the number of babies she wants without anyone interfering, (And although I am concerned about overpopulation, it's rare a woman who chooses to have 19+ children.)

[Joanne]

Mrs. Duggar is a homeschooler; how do you know she is not viewing this forum?

 

We're talking about human beings here.

 

 

A human family, the adults of whom decided to accept - by absolute choice - a public life.

[SKL]

To imply the M. Duggar is terrible for spanking equals implying that many forum members are too.

[Santi]

Okay, I'm done with this topic because as I said before I don't think we need to resort to insulting people for their politely presented opinions. Have a nice day.

[SKL]

A human family, the adults of whom decided to accept - by absolute choice - a public life.

 

Becoming a public figure does not mean no longer deserving to be treated like a human.

 

I don't get the connection at all.  Yes, you are now public and people are going to say things about you.  People are going to comment on whether your style of dress is to their taste etc.  How that translates to "anything goes" - ?  I don't get it.

 

[Joanne]

I just said that people who can't tell the difference between an occasional spank and child abuse need their heads examined.  First of all, do you think I was talking to you?  If so, that means you must believe an occasional spank is child abuse.  Is that so?  If that is the case, well, I am not sure how to put it delicately, but I consider that wrong, ignorant, insensitive, disrespectful, and downright mean to many of the people right here on this forum.  Or maybe it's just a matter of needing one's head examined.  I don't know.

 

There are a lot of spankers on this forum.  The people who implied that spanking is abusive, mean or sick were disrespectful first IMO.  And this is nothing new around here.  People need to understand that the choice to spank is a valid parenting choice, even if they themselves would never choose it.  To imply the M. Duggar is terrible for spanking equals implying that many forum members are too.

 

 

Actually, no they don't. It is PERFECTLY valid to not consider spanking a valid choice. I personally believe the conversation is useless and futile since the occassional spanker and the blanket training spankers are all spanking parents. But the fact is that people are free to feel however they feel about spanking - any type and any amount.

 

But your whole approach is a *false premise*. The Duggars are known, before they cleaned up their social media, to utilize parenting discipline tactics that are more intentional and punitive than an occassional spanking.

[Murphy101]

I just want to note there is very little by way of studies about grand multiparity. There is a lot about socioeconomic affects on pregnant women. But actually very little about grandmultiparas.

 

I did find this itty nibble with some digging.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3369480

 

And many people blame number of pregnancies or age for things that are just inherent risks of pregnancy. Just because it didn't happen the first or second time or when they were 25 doesn't mean they are somehow asking for it if they have another.

 

I don't know what her health is and I don't think her being on tv makes it any of my business.

 

People risk their lives everyday for stuff a lot more selfish than letting another person live, so I just can't get worked up over that possible aspect.

[Murphy101]

Not at all, sorry. I do personally think having a child when you have a high chance of them being disabled is irresponsible though. Then again it's still the woman's choice and I'm not a doctor so I should probably do more research before I say a lot on the subject.

:(

Smh

[Soror]

Disagree a little. She has multiple c-sections and a history of pre-eclampsia. One has to do with the number of babies born via c-section and the other has to do with her age and particular health history. I'm not saying that every woman her age and/or with her number of births has the same risks, but *she* definitely is at higher risk than your average woman with no history of pre-eclapmsia and no c-sections. I do agree that the number of children she has and/or her use of birth control (or lack thereof)-those are her decisions alone to make, just like every other woman.

Yes, whether or not it would be as risky for someone else is not really relevant. Given her history and details that we do know it is obviously far more risky for her than the average woman. I don't think that means that she shouldn't have that choice but I also don't believe that means that her choice is the most responsible choice, considering the number of small children she has. I especially don't understand her actively trying to have more, as she seems to be doing. It is one thing to accept more but another to try.

[Joanne]

Becoming a public figure does not mean no longer deserving to be treated like a human.

 

I don't get the connection at all.  Yes, you are now public and people are going to say things about you.  People are going to comment on whether your style of dress is to their taste etc.  How that translates to "anything goes" - ?  I don't get it.

 

 

Where is the "anything goes"??

 

The family discusses diet, money, sex, romance, health, media, discipline, values. The public - through whom the family gets funded - are not allowed to interact and comment over it?

[NicAnn]

Actually, no they don't. It is PERFECTLY valid to not consider spanking a valid choice. I personally believe the conversation is useless and futile since the occassional spanker and the blanket training spankers are all spanking parents. But the fact is that people are free to feel however they feel about spanking - any type and any amount.

 

But your whole approach is a *false premise*. The Duggars are known, before they cleaned up their social media, to utilize parenting discipline tactics that are more intentional and punitive than an occassional spanking.

Well burn down the house- I think this is the first time I've agreed with you Joanne! I really could not agree more with your first sentence.

 

There will never be a scenario in which I agree that spanking is a valid parenting choice. Occasionally or otherwise. There are many many things that others may do, and I will respect their right to have opinions...but I certainly don't have to respect the opinion.

[SKL]

I don't think we know exactly what the Duggars ever did with their kids off camera.  Posting a link to something that *a few* people have taken to the extreme does not mean they themselves have applied extreme discipline methods.

 

But historically, it has been pretty normal for kids to be flogged regularly.  I don't do this, but I still think you can spank even more than "occasionally" without being abusive.  Before judging it I'd have to see the whole picture, which of course will never happen.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Blanket training isn't gentle. 

 

 

It can be.  I have described in the past how I did with a previous home daycare kiddo I had. All sorts of parents set up limits without being harsh, cruel, or punitive.  My understanding is that the Duggars were harsher and more punitive with their older children and calmed down in time.  That is a fairly common practice, ime.  I also don't think it is weird to not want to be associated with past practices that are controversial.  I could see removing references to such things.

[nmoira]

Rudeness snipped.

 

People need to understand that the choice to spank is a valid parenting choice, even if they themselves would never choose it. To imply the M. Duggar is terrible for spanking equals implying that many forum members are too.

Why do people NEED to understand this? I think spanking is abusive. Period. Yes, I know there are spankers on this forum. I'm sure they are not surprised that some people think spanking is abusive. It is, in the US, legal for a parent to spank their child, and I am not claiming it meets the legal definition of abuse. These are different things.

 

I think it's abusive to deny girls opportunities to be prepared for higher education because they are girls, but it is legal (with certain restrictions). Do I NEED to understand something about this too? When am I entitled to a principled opinion and when am I not?

 

What else do people NEED to understand? This does intrigue me.

[Joanne]

FWIW, the number of kids is not my biggest concern. It's that the number of kids is fueled by an unhealthy subculture. It's that that subculture has elements I profoundly disagree with:

 

1. Limiting women's roles
2. Legalistic Christianity
3. Adversarial parenting
4. Sub standard homeschooling material, including science

[SKL]

I guess it depends on your definition of "valid parenting choice."

[Joanne]

I don't think we know exactly what the Duggars ever did with their kids off camera.  Posting a link to something that *a few* people have taken to the extreme does not mean they themselves have applied extreme discipline methods.

 

But historically, it has been pretty normal for kids to be flogged regularly.  I don't do this, but I still think you can spank even more than "occasionally" without being abusive.  Before judging it I'd have to see the whole picture, which of course will never happen.

 

Not true. Modern Christian parenting was manufactured by more recent authors and experts and leaders.

 

And those of us posting about the specifics of the Duggars and discipline style ARE familiar with them in earlier years, before the whitewash. We are not pulling this out of our butts. I was teaching parenting when the first episode aired, and I am VERY familiar with the change in what they put out there.

[SKL]

So should the Hive file a complaint with Child Protective Services against the Duggars?

 

Or should they be allowed to raise their kids in a culturally different way?

[NicAnn]

It can be. I have described in the past how I did with a previous home daycare kiddo I had. All sorts of parents set up limits without being harsh, cruel, or punitive. My understanding is that the Duggars were harsher and more punitive with their older children and calmed down in time. That is a fairly common practice, ime. I also don't think it is weird to not want to be associated with past practices that are controversial. I could see removing references to such things.

I do believe that's what happened. I think everything they are accused of doing is something they have done in the past. However, and Michelle has said this herself, they realized many things were wrong or not effective, so they changed. Parents often start in the extreme and then find a middle ground. Having been a parenting support leader and gentle discipline advocate, I'd say it's extremely common for parents that started out hitting/spanking or using aggression to then stop and try a gentler approach.

[nmoira]

So should the Hive file a complaint with Child Protective Services against the Duggars?

 

Or should they be allowed to raise their kids in a culturally different way?

You are asking this of whom? I don’t recall anyone saying this.

[Joanne]

So should the Hive file a complaint with Child Protective Services against the Duggars?

 

Or should they be allowed to raise their kids in a culturally different way?

 

 

WTheck? Why can't you have a *discussion* about the topic? The quote above shows you are not engaging with the material in the thread, but using red herring, absurd arguments.