It has run its course and the award goes to ....

[JadeOrchidSong]

This has run its course and more titles don't mean much any more.

I do like ç«äº† the best for the title. No more will come.

 

Per some fellow members' request, here comes another title. Want more?

 

Halcyon used "deleted" as her title earlier than I today. So I think I will just change the title now.

This is about a book in common core 11th grade reading list, Bluest Eye.

 

I deleted this because of mommymilkies's warning. Thank you, mommymilkies.

[Halftime Hope]

Unbelievable.    Why the author would would want us to feel/experience things from the POV of a perv is beyond me.   Does she really want people with that empathy and that understanding around her grandchildren?  

 

Seriously.  Where's the puking icon.

[mommymilkies]

Not that I agree with the book choice, but just to warn you, you linked to an uber-conservative website and the article is also political.  I think that might be against the rules, but if not...this might get ugly. 

[Blessed Mommy]

I am completely appalled.  I couldn't even finish reading the excerpts.  Just another point to add to my list of "reasons we homeschool."

[bettyandbob]

I have not read this book. These are my general comments about issues with high school literature. 

 

So this book is on a list for 11th grade reading. It may or may not be assigned. It could be extra reading the student chooses. 11th grade students are 16 or 17. Some people get married at 16 or 17. In my area there is a percentage of this age population that lives independent from parents, having to make adult decisions about work, figuring out how to finish school, figuring out where to sleep at night (shelter. friend's couch). 

 

The article has quotes from the book. I'm not sure of the context of the quotes. The conservative website makes me suspicious of the context. There are many, many authors with graphic material in their text. Such material has to be understood in the context of the full text. 

 

I'm not a fan of Toni Morrision, but I'd rather my child encounter and discuss adult topics while still living with me, before he or she leaves home to make his or her own decisions about such adult topics. I wouldn't want this material in 9th grade reading, but 11th grade when these students are on the edge of getting out on their own is actually a good time to introduce it. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Not that I agree with the book choice, but just to warn you, you linked to an uber-conservative website and the article is also political.  I think that might be against the rules, but if not...this might get ugly. 

 

I think the awfulness of this book stands for itself.  You don't even need to read the article to get a feel for why this book is a terrible idea.  I just about threw up after just a few excerpts. I'm not a super conservative person.  I don't understand why the Common Core people would choose this (and I am not a anti-common core zealot.)  What possible educational goals could this fill?  If someone wants to read this on their own, fine.  But for it to count for school credit?  Maybe in a college abnormal psych class. 

 

[Dana]

The Bluest Eye is a classic. Toni Morrison won the Nobel Prize for literature. I did not read the linked article but I did read The Bluest Eye in college for a Morrison class.

 

I will likely have my son read it or definitely some of her other works while in high school.

[Cricket]

We have this book in our RV park exchange library! I was sorting through them the other day but kept this one. After all it was an Oprah book club choice and someone might be interested.....Ick!! I had no idea!!

[MommaOfalotta]

 

 

Seriously.  Where's the puking icon.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Erin]

The better question is:  Which schools are actually using this?  

Whether it's CC approved or not is irrelevant, really, since the actual curricular decisions are up to the individual schools/districts/states.  And frankly, I'd be surprised to find that this was in common usage around the country...

[Kathryn]

Here's the other side for those who want balance: "From The National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE) Novel Rationale CD: The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison" http://aplangrocksthefreeworld.wikispaces.com/file/view/The+Bluest+Eye-NCTE+rationale.pdf

 

At the end of the rationale, they finally address why the book should not be banned from classroom use, ending with the "pornography" issue (which do not reflect my views):

 

"Probably the most important reason that The Bluest Eye may be challenged is on the basis of sexual

references and/or portrayals of sexual activity. The central action is the rape of Pecola by her father. For

many readers, this is probably as objectionable a thing as could be imagined. It wouldn't be surprising if

quite a few people had an objection to this element of the story, but readers need to understand what Toni

Morrison was trying to do and not judge her on the actions of her characters. In an interview with Tate,

Morrison tries to explain what she wanted readers to see and how, through the structure of her novel, she

tried to get them to that point:

I tell you at the beginning of The Bluest Eye, on the very first page, what happens, but now I want you to go

with me and look at this, so when you get to the scene where the father rapes the daughter, which is as

awful a thing I suppose as can be imagined, by the time you get there it's almost irrelevant because I want

you to look at him [Cholly] and see his love for his daughter and his powerlessness to help her pain. By this

time his embrace, the rape, is all the gift he has left. (Rigney 32)

Morrison was trying to relieve readers of the shock of such a deed early so that they could see beauty under

the surface. She wasn't trying to justify anything, merely to allow readers to look at what happens in a

different way, to get them to realize that it isn't so simple as they would like to think. The world isn't black

and white as many would like to think. Morrison's novel has objectionable parts, but that is a part of what

makes it so valuable."

[JadeOrchidSong]

Deleted!

[MommaOfalotta]

For what its worth... I got married at 17. One month into my senior year of high school.

 

I would fliiiiiiiiiip if my daughter brought this book home from the ps library at 17. I see from this thread that some people wouldn't mind their child reading, and actually plan on them doing so and that is fine. But the school making the choice for every parent is what I have an issue with.

 

 

[MommaOfalotta]

.

This thread dies here, I hope.

 

Oops. Sorry :leaving:

[AlmiraGulch]

I am just glad nobody quoted my post. I just deleted it.

Language of child poxxn from the predator's POV trying to make it sound "gentle, loving, fine" is inappropriate for a minor who is 17. Yea, a 17 or 18 year-old may get married already, but there is no place for this book to be for school reading.

I am totally fine for young people to read romantic novles with intimate scenes between two adults who love each other. However, Bluest Eye does not belong to this category. However, I am totally fine if parents choose this for their own children to read because they have the right to do so.

This thread dies here, I hope.

 

So, you think the thread should die because.....?

 

Because some people don't share your shock and disdain?  Why would you even start the thread, then? What were you hoping for?  A bunch of people to respond with equal disgust and disdain so you could have a group of people to sit around and purse your lips and shake your head with?

 

And by the way, I completely disagree with your assessment.  The focal point of this book is not the rape. I don't think there's a single person here who condones rape, or incest.  Are we to shelter and shield our 16-18 year old children from a beautifully written, powerful novel simply because the topics are uncomfortable?  I think otherwise.

[JadeOrchidSong]

So, you think the thread should die because.....?

 

Because some people don't share your shock and disdain? Why would you even start the thread, then? What were you hoping for? A bunch of people to respond with equal disgust and disdain so you could have a group of people to sit around and purse your lips and shake your head with?

 

And by the way, I completely disagree with your assessment. The focal point of this book is not the rape. I don't think there's a single person here who condones rape, or incest. Are we to shelter and shield our 16-18 year old children from a beautifully written, powerful novel simply because the topics are uncomfortable? I think otherwise.

You are spot on! I also added in my OP the reason for the deletion. You can check it out.

[unsinkable]

You are spot on! I also added in my OP the reason for the deletion. You can check it out.

Well, the good thing is, you were sure to give your opinion before you said the thread should die.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Well, the good thing is, you were sure to give your opinion before you said the thread should die.

I sure did! Thanks for confirming it. Check Post #12.

[AlmiraGulch]

You are spot on! I also added in my OP the reason for the deletion. You can check it out.

 

She was right, so it's good that you removed the link.  But really, you could have just removed the link if you were actually interested in having a discussion about the topic.

[AlmiraGulch]

I sure did! Thanks for confirming it. Check Post #12.

 

I'm wondering why you deleted your entire opinion if you were so keen on giving it. Your original, post #12 read:

 

I am just glad nobody quoted my post. I just deleted it.

Language of child poxxn from the predator's POV trying to make it sound "gentle, loving, fine" is inappropriate for a minor who is 17. Yea, a 17 or 18 year-old may get married already, but there is no place for this book to be for school reading.

I am totally fine for young people to read romantic novles with intimate scenes between two adults who love each other. However, Bluest Eye does not belong to this category. However, I am totally fine if parents choose this for their own children to read because they have the right to do so.

This thread dies here, I hope.

[Cricket]

So, you think the thread should die because.....?

 

Because some people don't share your shock and disdain? Why would you even start the thread, then? What were you hoping for? A bunch of people to respond with equal disgust and disdain so you could have a group of people to sit around and purse your lips and shake your head with?

 

And by the way, I completely disagree with your assessment. The focal point of this book is not the rape. I don't think there's a single person here who condones rape, or incest. Are we to shelter and shield our 16-18 year old children from a beautifully written, powerful novel simply because the topics are uncomfortable? I think otherwise.

I think she hoped the thread would die to avoid the nasty posts directed at each other that sometimes follow this sort of thing.

 

There are some people who think that there are plenty of beautifully written, powerful novels that don't go where this one appears too. If the author, judging from her quote above, writes a book so that when the reader gets to a scene of rape and incest, the reader thinks it's irrelevant and she wants the reader to focus on the rape as an act of love of a father to a daughter, then, yeah, I think I'll pass. I haven't read the book but the quote from the author above is disturbing to me. I think there are plenty of other healthy ways to discuss rape and incest with older children without using this book.

[Χά�ων]

She was right, so it's good that you removed the link. But really, you could have just removed the link if you were actually interested in having a discussion about the topic.

For those of use coming in late, what was the link?

[unsinkable]

For those of use coming in late, what was the link?

We'd tell you, but then we'd have to flashy-thing you.

 

Sure am sorry!

[JadeOrchidSong]

QValentia,

I feel way honored that the same person, you, took the trouble to quote me twice.

You denifitely want to go on, but sorry, I heeded mommymilkies's warning and deleted all I said, and you just wouldn't let it go. Why are you so keen on keeping circulating my post?

You can post all you want now, but I am out of here.

[AlmiraGulch]

. I think there are plenty of other healthy ways to discuss rape and incest with older children without using this book.

 

But that's not the point of the book at all.  

[Kathryn]

Well, I thought it was an interesting conversation. You can find the original article that OP linked by googling bluest eye common core. It was a post yesterday from a political site that was at the bottom of my first page of hits.

[Erin]

I'm still confused on which part we were supposed to be discussing:  The book and it's appropriateness for the high school level, or the fact that it was Common Core approved.  (Because that's what the link was in a dither about)

[Erin]

*sigh* triple post

[Erin]

nm

[AlmiraGulch]

I think the point of the link was that the book should not be common core approved because some believe the content is not appropriate for high school.  

[nmoira]

I'm still confused on which part which supposed to be discussing:  The book and it's appropriateness for the high school level, or the fact that it was Common Core approved.  (Because that's what the link was in a dither about)

 

Yes. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I haven't read the book in question, but I can imagine how a plot synopsis of The Sweet Hereafter might immediately prejudice some against the book on the grounds of the feeling of loss experienced by one of the characters. I'm deliberately being vague... it's an excellent book that should be read for the first time spoiler free.

[Erin]

I think the point of the link was that the book should not be common core approved because some believe the content is not appropriate for high school.  

 

Well if that's the criteria, Huck Finn shouldn't be CC approved either, because that one's been on a lot of lists...

[Acorn]

QValentia,

I feel way honored that the same person, you, took the trouble to quote me twice.

You denifitely want to go on, but sorry, I heeded mommymilkies's warning and deleted all I said, and you just wouldn't let it go. Why are you so keen on keeping circulating my post?

You can post all you want now, but I am out of here.

 

We can always discuss literature without it being political.  I didn't see your link but I can imagine it having a conservative political bent.  Book banning is always a hot topic.  I wasn't familiar with The Bluest Eye before this thread and appreciate the discussion.  I just read the sparknotes context description and love this quote:

 

"In the afterword to The Bluest Eye, Morrison explains her goal in writing the novel. She wants to make a statement about the damage that internalized racism can do to the most vulnerable member of a community—a young girl. At the same time, she does not want to dehumanize the people who wound this girl, because that would simply repeat their mistake. Also, she wants to protect this girl from “the weight of the novel’s inquiry,†and thus decides to tell the story from multiple perspectives. In this way, as she puts it, she “shape a silence while breaking it,†keeping the girl’s dignity intact."  from http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/bluesteye/context. html

 

The multiple perspectives to "shape a silence while breaking it"...  WOW

 

My children will read Morrison but I don't know which titles or exactly when.  And we will discuss how complex evil/criminal/unjust acts can be committed even to loved ones.

[AlmiraGulch]

QValentia,

I feel way honored that the same person, you, took the trouble to quote me twice.

You denifitely want to go on, but sorry, I heeded mommymilkies's warning and deleted all I said, and you just wouldn't let it go. Why are you so keen on keeping circulating my post?

You can post all you want now, but I am out of here.

 

Because it's an interesting topic.  Clearly you thought so, too, or you wouldn't have posted it in the first place.

 

The warning was about the link, not the topic.  

 

I'm always baffled by people who post something, usually something that could be controversial, and  then when some of the responses are something other than what they expected them to be, or make them uncomfortable, they just delete the whole thing. It's like hanging up the phone on someone, or taking your ball and going home.  A bit rude, frankly.  No one said you had to continue to post, but maybe some of the rest of us would like to discuss the topic that you raised. 

[Pretty in Pink]

I wasn't aware of the book before but now I'm very interested. I wish the OP had left her post intact, or just deleted the questionable link, rather than trashing the whole thing.

[Acorn]

I found an article by searching google for The Bluest Eye and Common Core.  It had graphic and raw quotes from the novel.  They were about what I expected but again still not sure if I would assign this novel in h.s. high school, and wouldn't for a classroom setting. 

[Catwoman]

Am I the only one who clicked on this thread for the sole reason that it was titled DELETED? :D

 

I probably wouldn't have even bothered clicking on it if I'd known what it was about, because the topic doesn't interest me, but my nosiness wouldn't let me pass a DELETED topic that had already gotten more than 35 responses.

[Erin]

I'll confess, that's what drew me back in.  I'd gotten a like for a post I made in the thread "Deleted" and thought, "huh...how does that work?"

[Kathryn]

Since we are continuing the conversation...

 

I don't think it should be banned or anything, but it seems an odd choice to me for Common Core. There are many books that speak to the African American experience without that level of disturbing sexual explicitness. And I very much disagree with this statement from the rationale I linked: "The greatest harm would be to those students who are ready for a book of this nature and didn't have it available to them." I've never read this book and I think I turned out okay. To attach that much importance to one particular novel is just silly.

[ocelotmom]

Am I the only one who clicked on this thread for the sole reason that it was titled DELETED? :D

 

Nope, not just you :)

[chiguirre]

Since we are continuing the conversation...

 

I don't think it should be banned or anything, but it seems an odd choice to me for Common Core. There are many books that speak to the African American experience without that level of disturbing sexual explicitness. And I very much disagree with this statement from the rationale I linked: "The greatest harm would be to those students who are ready for a book of this nature and didn't have it available to them." I've never read this book and I think I turned out okay. To attach that much importance to one particular novel is just silly.

Toni Morrison is the only non-immigrant American to win the Nobel Prize in a very long time. I imagine that textbook committees like to include externally validated literature because they feel it's a more objective claim to worth than the opinion of the curriculum committee.

[unsinkable]

I sure did! Thanks for confirming it. Check Post #12.

You deleted your opinion from the post. It WAS there.

 

Your posts have this unusual perky aggression. Like one of Charlie's Angels.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Since we are continuing the conversation...

 

I don't think it should be banned or anything, but it seems an odd choice to me for Common Core. There are many books that speak to the African American experience without that level of disturbing sexual explicitness. And I very much disagree with this statement from the rationale I linked: "The greatest harm would be to those students who are ready for a book of this nature and didn't have it available to them." I've never read this book and I think I turned out okay. To attach that much importance to one particular novel is just silly.

I am a liberal and would be concerned if this book was chosen for my kid. I get it that the author is speaking of experiences, but can she not convey the same things without graphic s*x? It seems the same as gratuitous violence, but in this case it seems like gratuitous s*x which is of a disturbing nature. I have no problem with my kid reading about normal sexual relations that are not too graphic in novels of literary value when he is old enough. This book however seems to be describing very graphic and disturbing s*x. I think it is appropriate to protect my kid from gratuitous violence and I would also want to protect him from disturbing passages that this book has. Why fill a kid's mind with those sorts of images?

[JuanitaL]

Your posts have this unusual perky aggression. Like one of Charlie's Angels.

:smilielol5: I'm now wondering what I can do to be perky-aggressive.

[unsinkable]

:smilielol5: I'm now wondering what I can do to be perky-aggressive.

I think the Bionic Woman is perky aggressive, too.

 

And Nellie Olsen, from TV's Little House.

[Dana]

I am a liberal and would be concerned if this book was chosen for my kid. I get it that the author is speaking of experiences, but can she not convey the same things without graphic s*x? It seems the same as gratuitous violence, but in this case it seems like gratuitous s*x which is of a disturbing nature. I have no problem with my kid reading about normal sexual relations that are not too graphic in novels of literary value when he is old enough. This book however seems to be describing very graphic and disturbing s*x. I think it is appropriate to protect my kid from gratuitous violence and I would also want to protect him from disturbing passages that this book has. Why fill a kid's mind with those sorts of images?

It is graphic and disturbing, but I don't agree that it's gratuitous.

 

I wouldn't hand my 10 yo the book, but I absolutely would hand it to my 16 or 17 yo.

Isn't high school when we're supposed to be engaging our students in these discussions?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It is graphic and disturbing, but I don't agree that it's gratuitous.

 

I wouldn't hand my 10 yo the book, but I absolutely would hand it to my 16 or 17 yo.

Isn't high school when we're supposed to be engaging our students in these discussions?

I agree kids should know about the birds and the bees and about the difference between right and wrong in this arena. We have already had age appropriate conversations regarding these things and plan to have ongoing conversations. OTOH I see no need to give my kid a book that has such disturbing graphic scenes even when he is older no matter how much "literary value" the book may have. There are tons of outstanding literary books that speak of human nature and the good and the bad in society that do not have these sort of very graphic scenes that he can read.

[Dana]

We'll have to agree to disagree there. :)

 

It has been 20 years since my Morrison class. I found Beloved to be much more disturbing than The Bluest Eye. I loved Song of Solomon and Jazz. I definitely see reading and discussing books together to be important and I certainly wouldn't say everyone must read Morrison, but I think dismissing her work without looking at the book itself is narrow minded and that's what I saw in the original link.

[Χά�ων]

The best thing about banning books? More people will be likely to read them.

[Seasider]

I'll confess, that's what drew me back in. I'd gotten a like for a post I made in the thread "Deleted" and thought, "huh...how does that work?"

Just a change of title by the OP. only the mods can make it disappear forever. This is further confused by the fact that two different threads today have been retitled "deleted."

 

FWIW, it's hard on us mobile users. We only see the thread title, not who started the thread (as it displays on the full version).