Neighbor/friend calling my NA son

[Slartibartfast]

What does Sambo mean? Why is THAT offensive as well?

And with respect to 1., how the term come to be used for Native Americans? They don't speak Spanish... confused

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonto

 

Many American words have origins in Spanish or Native American languages.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(racial_term)

[FaithManor]

It is also a derivative of Tonto Apache language of the Western Apache language and it means "brainless one". It was meant as an insult in the original Native American languages as well as Spanish and Portuguese.

 

In the old 1950's show, currently being remembered due to a remake film, the Native American character of "Tonto" referred to the Lone Ranger (a vigilante justice, cowboy hero type) as "Kemo Sabe". Roughly translated from the Native American languages of Tewa and Apache, it means "friend" though the entymology is in question. To the Ojibway peoples of Michigan, it has a rough meaning of "one who peeks, secret, or one who sneaks" and could have been a term for scout or spy.

 

At any rate, the show was LESS than flattering to Native American people and the meaning in the words indicate that the cowboy's faithful companion was one he referred to as basically, "idiot", which would be a good English equivalent, while the NA character then supposedly referred to the cowboy as "friend". For a group of peoples who were oppressed to the point of near genocide, this is VERY offensive.

 

To be honest, my dad's generation probably understands this. I know my dad does. My grandparents were adamant about not watching the show or most "cowboy/indian" shows or films because my grandmother's great - grandfather was a member of the Blackfoot tribe. That generation KNEW this was a racial insult. During a history class in high school, the teachers assigned the kids to compile geneologies as far back as they could. When these were posted on the walls and the class came to know dad had an ancestor of Native American ethnicity, he was called "Tonto" for most of the rest of the year. Dad looks about as "white-European" as a person can get, but that's all it took - a geneology - for those kids from their racist, bigotted homes, to get on the offensive. Those kids KNEW they were being bigotted jerks. I have a rather vile reaction to the use of the term due to that little piece of family history.

 

My generation really didn't get it so much, but most had a pretty good idea that you just didn't go around tossing the word out at people. However, this generation may not have a clue. As I've taught history at home, I've made whole lists of terms to discuss with the kids so they know NOT to use them. I don't want them to hurt others out of ignorance.

 

Ignorance can most certainly be forgiven, but once a person says, "Please do not use that term. It is offensive to me!", then stop. A decent human being will seek to avoid the hurt. The fact that the OP confronted the man and asked him point blank to NOT use the term and he argued, tells me that he doesn't care about her son's feelings.

 

It's all about the history and if you aren't orginally from the States, it can be harder to get a handle on...but this term is one that should go the way of the dodo bird.

 

Faith

[Wildcat]

1. It means stupid in Spanish.

 

2. It is like calling a black kid Sambo. They are names that took on offensive stereotypes and thereby became offensive in and of themselves.

 

Thanks for this. I had no idea.

 

It is also a derivative of Tonto Apache language of the Western Apache language and it means "brainless one". It was meant as an insult in the original Native American languages as well as Spanish and Portuguese.

 

In the old 1950's show, currently being remembered due to a remake film, the Native American character of "Tonto" referred to the Lone Ranger (a vigilante justice, cowboy hero type) as "Kemo Sabe". Roughly translated from the Native American languages of Tewa and Apache, it means "friend" though the entymology is in question. To the Ojibway peoples of Michigan, it has a rough meaning of "one who peeks, secret, or one who sneaks" and could have been a term for scout or spy.

 

At any rate, the show was LESS than flattering to Native American people and the meaning in the words indicate that the cowboy's faithful companion was one he referred to as basically, "idiot", which would be a good English equivalent, while the NA character then supposedly referred to the cowboy as "friend". For a group of peoples who were oppressed to the point of near genocide, this is VERY offensive.

 

To be honest, my dad's generation probably understands this. I know my dad does. My grandparents were adamant about not watching the show or most "cowboy/indian" shows or films because my grandmother's great - grandfather was a member of the Blackfoot tribe. That generation KNEW this was a racial insult. During a history class in high school, the teachers assigned the kids to compile geneologies as far back as they could. When these were posted on the walls and the class came to know dad had an ancestor of Native American ethnicity, he was called "Tonto" for most of the rest of the year. Dad looks about as "white-European" as a person can get, but that's all it took - a geneology - for those kids from their racist, bigotted homes, to get on the offensive. Those kids KNEW they were being bigotted jerks. I have a rather vile reaction to the use of the term due to that little piece of family history.

 

My generation really didn't get it so much, but most had a pretty good idea that you just didn't go around tossing the word out at people. However, this generation may not have a clue. As I've taught history at home, I've made whole lists of terms to discuss with the kids so they know NOT to use them. I don't want them to hurt others out of ignorance.

 

Ignorance can most certainly be forgiven, but once a person says, "Please do not use that term. It is offensive to me!", then stop. A decent human being will seek to avoid the hurt. The fact that the OP confronted the man and asked him point blank to NOT use the term and he argued, tells me that he doesn't care about her son's feelings.

 

It's all about the history and if you aren't orginally from the States, it can be harder to get a handle on...but this term is one that should go the way of the dodo bird.

 

Faith

 

Thanks to you, too, Faith. I had no idea about all of this.

 

I have to say that as a kid (I'm now in my early 40s), I watched The Lone Ranger reruns and I loved it. All I remember is loving The Lone Ranger standing up for right, and loving watching Tonto. I was fascinated with NA and had no clue about the history of the name Tonto until this thread. It just sounded 'cool'.

 

OP, could it be that your neighbor simply enjoyed the show as a kid and liked Tonto as I did, not knowing or understanding just how stupid and racist it all was? Until this thread I had absolutely no idea of the origin of the name, nor at that age, did I know the extent of the atrocities committed against the NA. I did, however, think they made him look stupid and didn't like that, but hey, I was like 8 or 9, so what did I know?

 

I agree with the person who asked just *how* did your neighbor ask "why"? If it was out of curiosity, then he can understand why it's offensive and should cease from using the term if the background is shared with him~~ heck, just print out Faith's post and hand it to him! If it was in a defensive way, then, maybe a punch in the face is in order. I really hope the issue is simple ignorance, and not racism.

 

I'm sorry your ds is having to go through this. Mom2bee has a great post, although I'm sorry her words of wisdom had to come from first hand experience.

[regentrude]

It is also a derivative of Tonto Apache language of the Western Apache language and it means "brainless one". It was meant as an insult in the original Native American languages as well as Spanish and Portuguese.

...

It's all about the history and if you aren't orginally from the States, it can be harder to get a handle on...but this term is one that should go the way of the dodo bird.

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[Tammyla]

Johnny Depp, is starring as Tonto in The Lone Ranger film coming to theaters in July.

[mom31257]

Johnny Depp, is starring as Tonto in The Lone Ranger film coming to theaters in July.

 

 

That's what I wondered. Is the new movie going to cause the name to take on a use meant as humor rather than meaning it as an insult?

[Dmmetler]

Even then, though, I wish they'd change the name. There are likely to be a lot of little kids playing "Lone Ranger", and the last thing NA kids need is the perpetuation of an insult, or to be the constant target of joking, insensitive kids.

 

Heck, I remember HATING when the movie about Richie Valens came out when I was in middle school, because all of a sudden, I had to hear badly out of tuned versions of "Donna" every time I walked in the room, since middle school boys thought that was SO funny....and that wasn't an insult, only the fact that I had a first name that had been much more common in the 1950s than the 1980s.

[Trish]

Johnny Depp, is starring as Tonto in The Lone Ranger film coming to theaters in July.

Presumably Hollywood wouldn't put out a movie these days where one of the main characters is named "Sambo." So how come they have not been pressured over this one? I agree that this is likely to cause confusion among the current generation, or at least, perpetuate some ignorance over the use of this name. If it's up on the Big Screen and "Jack Sparrow" is proudly starring as "Tonto," I can imagine most people won't get the idea that it's considered a slur in many quarters.

[Miss Peregrine]

Even then, though, I wish they'd change the name. There are likely to be a lot of little kids playing "Lone Ranger", and the last thing NA kids need is the perpetuation of an insult, or to be the constant target of joking, insensitive kids.

 

Heck, I remember HATING when the movie about Richie Valens came out when I was in middle school, because all of a sudden, I had to hear badly out of tuned versions of "Donna" every time I walked in the room, since middle school boys thought that was SO funny....and that wasn't an insult, only the fact that I had a first name that had been much more common in the 1950s than the 1980s.

 

I had no idea there was a new movie in the works. I really hope it doesn't cause more of this. :/

[Miss Peregrine]

Just looking around at the new movie online. I found this

 

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-open-letter-to-johnny-depps-tonto

 

" I hope you get an itch to step off that big screen and take a space in the world that doesn’t knock us back into shirtless whooping half-animal extras. High hopes. So mostly I hope you don’t end up in a bag-made costume to sell at Halloween. They’ll just snip the Jack Sparrow braids a bit and move around a few trinkets and feathers and you’ll be ready to wear. On bodies, on backpacks, on bedsheets. I’m worried for you. You’ll be everywhere for anyone to try on and the DVD you will be out in time for holidays. Christmas will hit with your team-designed face on everything and shopping for and around you at that time of year—well, it’s probably going to be a slaughter."

[Slartibartfast]

Johnny Depp, is starring as Tonto in The Lone Ranger film coming to theaters in July.

 

I saw some pictures of him in his Tonto costume. He looks like an ass. I find it offensive and ridiculous that he looks like such a caricature.

 

NAs are nearly always portrayed badly in film and I find it vulgar and insulting that Johnny Depp thought strapping a dead bird to his head would be appropriate in any way.

[HRAAB]

I am embarrassed to admit I did not know what it meant other than being the name of a character in The Lone Ranger. Even so, I would never have called anyone that simply because I have always felt The Lone Ranger was racist and did not treat Native Americans respectfully. I have no intention of seeing the new movie, either.

 

I'm thankful for this thread because my girls and I are going to have a learning moment. I would be horrified beyond belief if any of them ever called anyone that.

[PrincessMommy]

I saw some pictures of him in his Tonto costume. He looks like an ass. I find it offensive and ridiculous that he looks like such a caricature.

 

NAs are nearly always portrayed badly in film and I find it vulgar and insulting that Johnny Depp thought strapping a dead bird to his head would be appropriate in any way.

 

I completely agree. Saw the trailer yesterday. I'm shocked that Depp would even go near this project - for any amount of money (does he really need it anyway). He's a joke and I can't believe that NA's aren't complaining more loudly at the hypocrites from PC Hollywood. It's unbelievable.

 

The link to the McSweeney article is not working.

[Miss Peregrine]

 

 

I completely agree. Saw the trailer yesterday. I'm shocked that Depp would even go near this project - for any amount of money (does he really need it anyway). He's a joke and I can't believe that NA's aren't complaining more loudly at the hypocrites from PC Hollywood. It's unbelievable.

 

The link to the McSweeney article is not working.

 

 

I fixed the link.

[Tammyla]

I was pretty surprised to see Johnny Depp starring in this as well as a few other cast members; Hollywood does get away with an awful lot though.

[Slartibartfast]

 

I completely agree. Saw the trailer yesterday. I'm shocked that Depp would even go near this project - for any amount of money (does he really need it anyway). He's a joke and I can't believe that NA's aren't complaining more loudly at the hypocrites from PC Hollywood. It's unbelievable.

 

The link to the McSweeney article is not working.

 

 

They are complaining but it is just not getting any attention.

[Jean in Newcastle]

They are complaining but it is just not getting any attention.

 

 

The only thing they will listen to is if people boycott the movie and they lose money on it.

[PrincessMommy]

The only thing they will listen to is if people boycott the movie and they lose money on it.

 

 

But Christians have tried that in the past, and it didn't seem to work for them.

 

Anyway, I feel bad about thread-jacking... should we spin this conversation off? Mods, is there a way to lift all the conversations about Johnny Depp and put them into a new thread, or do we have to start all over?

[Miss Peregrine]

 

 

But Christians have tried that in the past, and it didn't seem to work for them.

 

Anyway, I feel bad about thread-jacking... should we spin this conversation off? Mods, is there a way to lift all the conversations about Johnny Depp and put them into a new thread, or do we have to start all over?

 

I don't mind the evolution.

[Hoot]

Is it terrible that I had to look that one up? My American cultural education is very lacking.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had no idea what this meant.

 

I'm a Midwesterner living in the south, and I find it curious that the racists I know don't actually think they're racists. Granted, most of the racists I know are older, so they seem to be under the impression that not having "colored" bathrooms makes them non-racists. But they make racist jokes, and when I don't laugh they add "isn't that terrible!" while they laugh. :confused1:

 

You pretty much just described my entire family growing up.

[Trish]

 

 

But Christians have tried that in the past, and it didn't seem to work for them.

 

Anyway, I feel bad about thread-jacking... should we spin this conversation off? Mods, is there a way to lift all the conversations about Johnny Depp and put them into a new thread, or do we have to start all over?

 

Why? Johnny Depp IS Tonto. It would be like removing the mascot for the thread!

[Marylou]

[jujsky]

Maybe he doesn't realize he's being offensive? I know that's hard to believe, but I think there has been less sensitivity-training in our culture around Native Americans than African Americans. I'd point it out to friend. I'd say, "If my child was Africa American, would you call him Buckwheat? No? Well it's equally offensive when you call him Tonto. Stop it."

[TracyP]

I am a 33 yo American who has never watched Lone Ranger and had NO idea this was offensive. I always learn something on these boards. Thank you.

 

I just did a quick google search and this came up. It sounds like they tried to be as inoffensive as possible by getting a Navajo blessing and bringing NA's on set. Whether or not sure they succeeded I'll leave for others to decide.

[goldberry]

.

 

Also, I only recently found out that 'G!nger' was offensive to some red-headed people. Really, I didn't know. I know redheads who proudly and playfully call themselves gingers and I, in passing and the privacy of my own head, referred to other redheads as Gingers. I had 0 idea that this could hurt someone until I read about it on this forum a while back.

 

 

Wow...the only thing I knew about ginger was that Dr. Who so wants to be and is disappointed everytime he regenerates and isn't. "Still not ginger!"

 

Therefore, of course it translated into a positive term to me...if the Doctor wants to be ginger, it must be awesome!

[RemsMom]

Wow...the only thing I knew about ginger was that Dr. Who so wants to be and is disappointed everytime he regenerates and isn't. "Still not ginger!"

 

Therefore, of course it translated into a positive term to me...if the Doctor wants to be ginger, it must be awesome!

nm

[vonfirmath]

You needed to tell him why. All he sees is that a character in a popular film has that name. I don't know how old this guy is but not all adults remember the stereotypes from the old Lone Ranger shows.

 

Agreed. I'm almost 40. I've heard about the Lone Ranger. I've never seen one and only vaguely knew Tonto was a character on the show. Maybe a sidekick? Like Batman and robin.

[Miss Peregrine]

 

 

Agreed. I'm almost 40. I've heard about the Lone Ranger. I've never seen one and only vaguely knew Tonto was a character on the show. Maybe a sidekick? Like Batman and robin.

 

Yes, a sidekick. He thought it was cute. Just because he's Indian we have to call him an Indian name? Like a previous poster said, would it be okay to call him Buckwheat if he was black?

 

 

[vonfirmath]

Yes, a sidekick. He thought it was cute. Just because he's Indian we have to call him an Indian name? Like a previous poster said, would it be okay to call him Buckwheat if he was black?

 

Okay, everyone is treating Buckwheat as this negative thing. But I've not heard of it as anything other than a plant. Who was Buckwheat that makes it an AA stereotype?

[Miss Peregrine]

Have you ever seen Little Rascals?

[vonfirmath]

Have you ever seen Little Rascals?

 

No

 

Hrms. 1922-1936. That's before my parents' time. Really old.

 

hey. But this sounds like it should be a good thing. (From Wikipedia) "The Our Gang series is notable for being one of the first times in cinema history that blacks and whites were portrayed as equals. The four African-American child actors who held main-character roles in the series were Ernie "Sunshine Sammy" Morrison, Allen "Farina" Hoskins, Matthew "Stymie" Beard and Billie "Buckwheat" Thomas. Ernie Morrison was, in fact, the first African-American actor signed to a long-term contract in Hollywood history,^[7] and was the first major African-American star in Hollywood history as well."

[Jean in Newcastle]

No

 

Hrms. 1922-1936. That's before my parents' time. Really old.

 

Eddie Murphy did Buckwheat imitations on SNL, that should be within you or your parent's time.

[Miss Peregrine]

 

 

No

 

Hrms. 1922-1936. That's before my parents' time. Really old.

 

I grew up watching them. In the 70's-80's. The Three Stooges came on right after. Lol

[vonfirmath]

Eddie Murphy did Buckwheat imitations on SNL, that should be within you or your parent's time.

 

We don't watch Saturday Night Live either. (didn't growing up (was it on? I heard about it only as an adult -- looking at Wikipedia its been around since 1975. WOW. So yes) )

 

But Eddie Murphy is foul. One of the few movies I've walked out on it was his (Dr. Doolittle if I'm remembering it correctly.). I'd rather do anything else than sit through his mouth.

 

ETA: Is "Kemo Sabe" considered anything bad? Because I've used that before. It sounds neat and it flows well with "Comprende?"

[TracyP]

I didn't know the buckwheat reference, either. I have heard it said (but never referencing a black person) and occasionally call my kids buckwheat. I was born in '80 and Eddie Murphy was on SNL from '80 - '84. I only post this so others can understand that not everyone has any clue that some of these terms would be offensive.

[Jean in Newcastle]

OK - for you youngsters - the Buckwheat character in Our Gang and Little Rascals is a prime example of the pickaninny stereotype - (bulging eyes, red lips, often eating watermelon and speaking in a stereotypical primitive dialect). Little Black Sambo (another controversial character name) was also a pickaninny.

[Slartibartfast]

ETA: Is "Kemo Sabe" considered anything bad? Because I've used that before. It sounds neat and it flows well with "Comprende?"

 

It isn't a real word

[Trish]

Some offensive stereotypes are super old, and now that our media is so fractured, where everybody is NOT watching/listening to the same things, many cultural references don't come close to being universal. So, maybe someone needs to compile a dictionary so we can keep track. ;^ )

[twoxcell]

OK - for you youngsters - the Buckwheat character in Our Gang and Little Rascals is a prime example of the pickaninny stereotype - (bulging eyes, red lips, often eating watermelon and speaking in a stereotypical primitive dialect). Little Black Sambo (another controversial character name) was also a pickaninny.

I understand what you are saying but Buckwheat was a real child not a drawing? KWIM. I have never heard some one call anyone Tonto or Buckwheat and never thought of them before as an insult. I will be 30 in December and I will admit I have never even seen a full episode of the Lone Ranger. I have watched the Little Rascals and thought they were funny. My dh was watching a preview of the new Lone Ranger movie and I found it very odd for Johnny Depp to be playing the NA. I even mentioned to my dh that he looked ridiculous and that it was weird/tacky for him to pretend to be a NA. This was before I saw this thread.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I understand what you are saying but Buckwheat was a real child not a drawing? KWIM. I have never heard some one call anyone Tonto or Buckwheat and never thought of them before as an insult. I will be 30 in December and I will admit I have never even seen a full episode of the Lone Ranger. I have watched the Little Rascals and thought they were funny. My dh was watching a preview of the new Lone Ranger movie and I found it very odd for Johnny Depp to be playing the NA. I even mentioned to my dh that he looked ridiculous and that it was weird/tacky for him to pretend to be a NA. This was before I saw this thread.

 

Yes, he was a character in an old t.v. show. The thing is, you shouldn't use cultural references and allusions if you don't understand what they mean. To go way back, someone had better not call someone a Shylock unless they understood that Shakespeare was referring to a stereotype of a greedy Jewish moneylender. Now Shakespeare takes the character and makes him a living breathing person with real feelings that counteracts the stereotype but it would still be a negative thing to call someone.

 

To update the idea - someone who hasn't watched and really understood the show, should not call someone a "Sheldon".

[twoxcell]

Yes, he was a character in an old t.v. show. The thing is, you shouldn't use cultural references and allusions if you don't understand what they mean. To go way back, someone had better not call someone a Shylock unless they understood that Shakespeare was referring to a stereotype of a greedy Jewish moneylender. Now Shakespeare takes the character and makes him a living breathing person with real feelings that counteracts the stereotype but it would still be a negative thing to call someone.

 

To update the idea - someone who hasn't watched and really understood the show, should not call someone a "Sheldon".

I agree with you and I have never called someone the name of any character that I can remember.

[TXBeth]

I was waiting patiently for you to come back and respond, but now you have come back and not responded, so I'll ask again...when your neighbor asked "why not?" is there a reason you didn't just answer him politely? Maybe he could have learned something. As you see here, there are a lot of people who didn't realize that name would be offensive. Maybe he didn't either. Honestly from your last post it kinda seems like you are just determined to be offended, even if no offense was intended.

Of course if his "why not" was defensive/surly, that changes everything. But if it was just a simple question, I think maybe it deserved a clear answer.

[Miss Peregrine]

I was waiting patiently for you to come back and respond, but now you have come back and not responded, so I'll ask again...when your neighbor asked "why not?" is there a reason you didn't just answer him politely? Maybe he could have learned something. As you see here, there are a lot of people who didn't realize that name would be offensive. Maybe he didn't either. Honestly from your last post it kinda seems like you are just determined to be offended, even if no offense was intended.

Of course if his "why not" was defensive/surly, that changes everything. But if it was just a simple question, I think maybe it deserved a clear answer.

 

 

I'm sorry, I missed that.

He did know from my tone of voice "why." Our relationship is such that I knew he knew. Not an excuse but we were in the middle of a military Memorial Day performance that our kids were doing. There were lots of people around and I was shaking as it is. Confrontation is very hard for me.

 

No, I didn't do it perfectly this time. If there is a next time, I know I will be able to.

[Miss Peregrine]

http://www.amazon.com/LEGO-Ranger-Stagecoach-Escape-79108/dp/B00ATX7JPM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1371239811&sr=8-3&keywords=lone+ranger+lego

 

Merchandising begins. Comes with Snap on Lego bird for Tonto's head. :/