Assignments before the first day?!

[LinRTX]

My daughter is taking a distance learning class this summer. Class starts the 28th of May. Today she just happens to go to the college website and her first assignment is posted and due the 28th! This seems so wrong. If she was physically going to class, she would not even be there until the 28th.

[amyco]

Around here summer assignments are very common. At my daughter's high school, every single student in the school gets a summer English assignment, and all AP classes have them too. Kids who move here right before school starts get a grace period and many assignments aren't actually due on the very first day of class. How weird for your dd! Good thing you checked!!

[bensonduck]

Not sure how common this is at college level, but we absolutely had assignments due the first day of class in law school. It was a hassle, especially to get to the school location a few days ahead to purchase the books and complete the assignment. :glare:

[Dana]

That can also be because you sometimes get online students who just don't do the work. Having an assignment due first class can be a way to count attendance. We have to drop no shows for financial aid.

I've emailed students when I've had stuff due at start of term. Some of them don't even check college email.

[Lori D.]

Well, the good news is that your DD found the assignment and has time to do it! :)

 

Don't know if that's standard practice for college distance classes, but I can tell you that college summer school is a different type of experience. Be prepared for it to move FAST! Our DS took a 5-week foreign language summer school class, and did nothing else for those 5 weeks -- 4 hours of class a day (4 days a week), plus 30 min. of language lab a day, then home and doing homework. It's like flying at warp speed because it's jamming a 16-week semester into just 1/3 the time!

 

 

 

Similar to Amyco, many of our local high schools have required reading over the summer, with assignments due that first week of the fall semester on books read over the summer.

 

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[J-rap]

You'd think they would have at least emailed her to let her know she HAD an assignment, instead of her just finding it accidentally.

[regentrude]

You'd think they would have at least emailed her to let her know she HAD an assignment, instead of her just finding it accidentally.

 

 

In "real" college, the professor does not email the students that they have assignments either. Students are expected to check the course website regularly for updates.

[EKS]

 

In "real" college, the professor does not email the students that they have assignments either. Students are expected to check the course website regularly for updates.

 

 

I get this, but it's a little odd that she was expected to check it before the class even started.

[misty.warden]

Not surprised here, unless she didn't get a syllabus or course expectations of any kind at any point after registering. Most DL registration will tell you to check your email and log in to the DL system to a) make sure your login works and you're in the class and B) check the syllabus posted on the class section of the DL site for required reading or assignment due dates.

 

In a B&M class it always frustrated me to waste the whole first day doing repetitive introductions and reading the syllabus no one bothered to check beforehand (available online as soon as you're registered for the class).

 

Wasn't this a joke in Legally Blonde that at the college level (I realize she was in law school bit still) you would have reading for the first day?

[regentrude]

, but it's a little odd that she was expected to check it before the class even started.

 

Why odd? Wouldn't the student have to check the course website anyway to find out what books to use, whether anything in addition to the book the bookstore has listed is required, the format of the course, the syllabus, the structure of assignments, what is happening on the first day, any class notes for the first day... I'd hope any student would peruse the course website before the first day of class.

[regentrude]

In a B&M class it always frustrated me to waste the whole first day doing repetitive introductions and reading the syllabus no one bothered to check beforehand (available online as soon as you're registered for the class).

 

Yes, this. I have now decided to cut out the entire syllabus-reading on the first day (after all, I expect my students to be literate) and instead start actually teaching in the first class. Of course, nobody will have read the assigned reading for that class, sigh.

 

Wasn't this a joke in Legally Blonde that at the college level (I realize she was in law school bit still) you would have reading for the first day?

 

Yes, she arrived unprepared for her first day, and the professor kicked her out. (Oh, the wishful thinking...)

[Lori D.]

You'd think they would have at least emailed her to let her know she HAD an assignment, instead of her just finding it accidentally.

 

 

Sorry you are frustrated. And agreeing, of course that would be helpful to send out an email. :)

 

BUT... this is college, and the expectation in that students are responsible for their own education, and that they *will* access the online portions of their classes in advance to be able to get books, access resources, learn what the deadlines are so they can schedule appropriately, etc. Our DSs have had several al-online classes at the community college, and they have never received any emails or alerts about anything, unless it is a response from the instructor to answer a question that a DS emailed first. And both have had some seriously bad "oopsies" and had to learn the hard way about missing deadlines for turning work in for online classes.

 

One other thing to keep an eye out for -- we've not run into this, but several others on this Board have had students taking classes that were either all online or had an online component -- and had a very unscheduled teacher who would open up an assignment unannounced and then close it just 24 or 48 hours later. So, you might want to make it a habit of just checking in on each class, once in the morning, and again in the evening, so you don't find any unexpected surprises that you missed.

 

And the great thing is... your DD DID check in early, so she'll be prepared! :) BEST of luck with the class! Warmly, Lori D.

[Plink]

Yes, this. I have now decided to cut out the entire syllabus-reading on the first day (after all, I expect my students to be literate) and instead start actually teaching in the first class. Of course, nobody will have read the assigned reading for that class, sigh.

 

 

Have you read this: http://scilit.uorego...nts-to-read.pdf ?

 

Fascinating stuff. Here is my favorite part,“Learning is not a spectator sport. Fundamentally, the responsibility to learn is yours and yours alone. For learning to happen in any course, you must take an active role in the process. For our class, you are expected to come to class ‘prepared’ and ‘ready to learn,’ which requires you ‘to read’ and ‘to study’ the assigned reading ‘before’ you come to class. Being prepared for class enables you to construct a knowledge base on which subsequent learning rests."

[Jane in NC]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it would be about first year summer reading assignments. Often colleges choose a book for all of the incoming students to read and discuss in their first year seminars, freshman orientation classes, or whatever they might call them. It is not unusual for students to be given a book and asked to write about it before even arriving on campus.

 

Reading the OP, I thought "What a good idea!" Students in online courses really need to stay on top of the communication stream--no excuses.This engages them from the get go or pre-get go as the case may be.

[SkateLeft]

My daughter spent the past two years as a full-time, dual enrolled student, and initial assignments being posted to the course website prior to the start date of the class was the norm, even for on-campus classes. In the weeks before the semester started, she would watch for instructors to post their syllabi. She was also expected to have her books prior to the class start date.

 

I would not expect college instructors to send out a reminder email.

 

Summer sessions are particularly intense, because a large amount of work has to be covered in a short period of time. It makes sense to expect a student to arrive at class prepared to move quickly into the material.

[Jane in NC]

 

Summer sessions are particularly intense, because a large amount of work has to be covered in a short period of time. It makes sense to expect a student to arrive at class prepared to move quickly into the material.

 

Indeed they are!

[EKS]

 

Why odd? Wouldn't the student have to check the course website anyway to find out what books to use, whether anything in addition to the book the bookstore has listed is required, the format of the course, the syllabus, the structure of assignments, what is happening on the first day, any class notes for the first day... I'd hope any student would peruse the course website before the first day of class.

 

Obviously, I'm in the minority here. I think the reason is that I went to college before the age of instant communication.

 

Back in the day, we received the syllabus and book list on the first day of class. What a concept.

[Lori D.]

Obviously, I'm in the minority here. I think the reason is that I went to college before the age of instant communication.

 

Back in the day, we received the syllabus and book list on the first day of class. What a concept.

 

 

Oh, not at all Kai! -- I'm right there with you, as that this was my personal college experience, too. :)

 

It's just that we now have 3 years of college between dual enrollment and graduated DSs that the computer access and electronic class syllabus is the "new normal." ;)

[EKS]

Oh, not at all Kai! -- I'm right there with you, as that this was my personal college experience, too. :)

 

It's just that we now have 3 years of college between dual enrollment and graduated DSs that the computer access and electronic class syllabus is the "new normal." ;)

 

Aside from being a troglodyte, I am totally sick of people in the education business (including middle and high school teachers as well as college instructors) thinking that they have some sort of extra special authority over my children's lives. I mean seriously, if a class starts on a particular day, my child should be able to be on Mars and completely out of communication with the universe until that day. Why should a teacher/instructor/professor have a right to demand that work be done prior to the agreed upon date? If an assignment is due on the first day of class in an online course, it should be minor enough to be doable in a short amount of time. But why not just have such an assignment due on the second day of class?

[LinRTX]

Well, this particular college has changed the requirements. Actually she is my third child at this school and this is her 5th semester. That is why it is so surprising. Foe every other child/ semester the distance learning students could access nothing until 10 a.m. on the first day of the semester. They could look at the online bookstore to find out the required books, but the actual class material wasn't even available until the first day of class. That is why this was such a shock.

 

Linda

[Paige]

 

Why odd? Wouldn't the student have to check the course website anyway to find out what books to use, whether anything in addition to the book the bookstore has listed is required, the format of the course, the syllabus, the structure of assignments, what is happening on the first day, any class notes for the first day... I'd hope any student would peruse the course website before the first day of class.

 

Back in the stone age, you didn't have course websites and the syllabus was given out the first day of class. You'd go to the book store on campus for your list of books ahead of time, but sometimes that was a mistake because the prof would give you a new list with the syllabus. I know....crazy! I think it may sound odd for people who have not been in college for the past 10-12 yrs and who aren't familiar with how much things may have changed.

[regentrude]

nm

[JennyD]

Aside from being a troglodyte, I am totally sick of people in the education business (including middle and high school teachers as well as college instructors) thinking that they have some sort of extra special authority over my children's lives. I mean seriously, if a class starts on a particular day, my child should be able to be on Mars and completely out of communication with the universe until that day. Why should a teacher/instructor/professor have a right to demand that work be done prior to the agreed upon date? If an assignment is due on the first day of class in an online course, it should be minor enough to be doable in a short amount of time. But why not just have such an assignment due on the second day of class?

 

I teach at a law school and always assign reading for the first day. It has never occurred to me that I have any sort of 'extra special authority' over my students' lives. On the contrary, my students are paying $40,000 a year for 28 weeks of class. A two-credit class meets 14 times, for 1 hour and 50 minutes each time. A 3-credit class meets 28 times, for 1 hour and 15 minutes each. The dollar per hour of class time works out to a staggering amount. How can I possibly just write off that first class? We meet, I spend 15 minutes going over the syllabus and talking about the grading schema, and then we dive into the material.

 

IME, prior to Blackboard, first day assignments were posted on actual bulletin boards.

[QueenCat]

 

Why odd? Wouldn't the student have to check the course website anyway to find out what books to use, whether anything in addition to the book the bookstore has listed is required, the format of the course, the syllabus, the structure of assignments, what is happening on the first day, any class notes for the first day... I'd hope any student would peruse the course website before the first day of class.

 

 

:iagree: Dh expects his students to have gone to the course website, read the syllabus and first chapters prior to the first day of class. Ds has had many professors with assigned reading, etc before class starts.

[QueenCat]

Yes, this. I have now decided to cut out the entire syllabus-reading on the first day (after all, I expect my students to be literate) and instead start actually teaching in the first class. Of course, nobody will have read the assigned reading for that class, sigh.

 

 

Dh tells the students to read it ahead of time. Goes over the parts that the school requires him to review, and then gives the students time to ask questions. And then he starts teaching on the chapters that were expected to have been read. About half of the students are prepared. Enough for him to know his expectations are reasonable.

[QueenCat]

 

IME, prior to Blackboard, first day assignments were posted on actual bulletin boards.

 

 

Yes! When I was in college in the early 1980s, book lists with the first week's readings were available in the book store a minimum of 5 days prior to first classes. This coincided with "move in" day. Professors expected us to be prepared, even in the dark ages... and this was at the undergrad level.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

Aside from being a troglodyte, I am totally sick of people in the education business (including middle and high school teachers as well as college instructors) thinking that they have some sort of extra special authority over my children's lives. I mean seriously, if a class starts on a particular day, my child should be able to be on Mars and completely out of communication with the universe until that day. Why should a teacher/instructor/professor have a right to demand that work be done prior to the agreed upon date? If an assignment is due on the first day of class in an online course, it should be minor enough to be doable in a short amount of time. But why not just have such an assignment due on the second day of class?

 

 

While I might agree to some extent about middle and high school teachers, these comments simply don't mesh with my understanding of college. I mean, no one forces a student to go to college, right? It's not an obligation that must be endured (or shouldn't be)? It's a privelege, and one that, presumably, the student has worked hard to earn and then applied to participate in doing.

 

Assignments aren't impositions on one's time. They are opportunities to learn.

[EKS]

While I might agree to some extent about middle and high school teachers, these comments simply don't mesh with my understanding of college. I mean, no one forces a student to go to college, right? It's not an obligation that must be endured (or shouldn't be)? It's a privelege, and one that, presumably, the student has worked hard to earn and then applied to participate in doing.

 

Assignments aren't impositions on one's time. They are opportunities to learn.

 

 

You're right. In thinking about this a bit more, I've realized that including college instructors in my rant was unfair. My son's college instructors have been much more respectful of students' time that his high school teachers were (and than my younger son's middle school teachers have been). They lay out what assignments are due when up front and stick to the schedule.

 

I apologize to any college instructors who I might have offended with my comment.

[Paige]

 

Yes! When I was in college in the early 1980s, book lists with the first week's readings were available in the book store a minimum of 5 days prior to first classes. This coincided with "move in" day. Professors expected us to be prepared, even in the dark ages... and this was at the undergrad level.

 

 

I went to college in the 90s and early 2000s- both undergrad and grad school, including 2 years of summer school, in 4 different universities in various parts of the country, and I never had an assignment actually due on the first day that counted towards the grade. I don't even recall having reading assigned, but I may have forgotten. Book lists were given out, but I never received a syllabus before the first day. I understand I am paying for the class and that there is a responsibility, but IMO, it's kind of like getting a new job and the employer expecting you to hand in some market research you've done for a client before you clock in.

[regentrude]

and I never had an assignment actually due on the first day that counted towards the grade. I don't even recall having reading assigned, but I may have forgotten

 

IMO, it should really not matter whether an assignment "counts towards the grade" or not: students should do the assignments because they want to learn and should trust the instructor to have put a lot of thought into the selection of assignments to achieve this goal.

When I went to college, NO assignments counted for grades. Homework was never collected and graded. If you did not do the homework, you'd simply fail the comprehensive final exam on which the entire course grade was based. There was no "assigned" reading. It was the student's reponsibility to figure out which of the five books recommended (not required!) by the professor had the best explanation for which concept, and to what degree to utilize the books so the lectures would make sense. They treated us like adults.

The entire mentality that students do assignments because they receive points for them, and only then, really bothers me.

[Dana]

With my students, even when homework counts for 10% of the course grade, I have students who choose not to do it.

I really don't understand some of them.

[katilac]

 

<snip> but IMO, it's kind of like getting a new job and the employer expecting you to hand in some market research you've done for a client before you clock in.

 

I've had at least two jobs that issued training materials ahead of time, and you were expected to know the material from Day 1.

[regentrude]

IMO, it's kind of like getting a new job and the employer expecting you to hand in some market research you've done for a client before you clock in.

 

I think the analogy is completely backwards.

Since the student is a paying customer who is purchasing a product, i.e. education, it is like getting a free sample of a product before the regularly scheduled delivery of the item you paid for.

 

In contrast to your analogy, the instructor reaps zero benefit from having an extra assignment to evaluate; the only person who benefits is the student.

 

 

But, as one of my colleagues put it succinctly: education is the only product where there are customers who are content to receive as little as possible of the product.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Fwiw I was talking about this with a friend. She has three in college- two at university and one at cc. Their experience is that booklists and syllabai are not available before the first day of class.

When her son enrolled in cc they bought his books at the bookstore and she had him read the first chapter of govt before class only to have the instructor change the book on the first day of class. Her other kids indicated that this was typical of their experience.

So ymmv on pre-class expectations.

 

(She also told me one math prof never issued a syllabus. Problems were assigned in class. )

[FaithManor]

I took a distance course once and all of work was due ahead of those on campus. This was because the professor oft times had a full load and was then assigned a distance class as well. The distance students had to get their work in for grading ahead of the other class since the prof would be overloaded if it all came in at once - my LAC did not use very many TA's.

 

We didn't like it all that much, but it was not something we could change either.

 

So, the rule was check college email three times per day.

 

Faith

[Barbara H]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but one big issue with distance learning classes is just making sure all the students are able to log in, access Blackboard and upload documents or files as needed. The early assignments may be in part just to make sure the first part of class isn't wasted waiting to make sure any IT problems are worked out. There just isn't a lot of extra time in summer classes.

[Wildcat]

I hadn't thought of having ds check online for assignments before classes started. He has quite a few DE credits and never knew/was told to check online before hand. It just didn't occur to either of us, so I guess he got very lucky in that he never missed anything! Thanks to this thread, I'm going to have him check perodically through the summer. As it is, we're still waiting to find out what books he needs for three of his classes!

 

As a side note, I know we're discussing college, but I was shocked last week to hear about our local high school's policy for some classes. The AP English classes for *next fall* had assignments due the last day of school this year. And, the APUSH class must read the first six chapters of the text over the summer and will have a major test on the *first* day of school. These tidbits really surprised me.

[katilac]

But, as one of my colleagues put it succinctly: education is the only product where there are customers who are content to receive as little as possible of the product.

 

Awesome quote!

[Jane in NC]

As a side note, I know we're discussing college, but I was shocked last week to hear about our local high school's policy for some classes. The AP English classes for *next fall* had assignments due the last day of school this year. And, the APUSH class must read the first six chapters of the text over the summer and will have a major test on the *first* day of school. These tidbits really surprised me.

There is so much material to cover in some of the AP courses that I believe it is fairly common to have summer assignments.

 

Also, some schools have summer reading assignments just to help kids stay in the school groove.

[Kareni]

I asked my daughter (recent college graduate) whether she'd ever had assignments due on the first day of class. She said yes. When I asked how she learned of the assignments, she said that the professor had always contacted the class via Blackboard or email and asked them to look over the syllabus before the first day of class. All of her assignments had been reading; she did not have a written assignment.

 

While taking AP courses from an out of the home provider during high school, she did have summer assignments.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Wildcat]

There is so much material to cover in some of the AP courses that I believe it is fairly common to have summer assignments.

 

Also, some schools have summer reading assignments just to help kids stay in the school groove.

 

Oh, I know. I was mostly stunned at the assignment of completing the first six chapters and having a *major* test the first day of school. The dad that told me about this said that test weighed more than a regular test. I never really thought about how the AP classes got all of their work completed in a semester (block scheduling here), so now I know! Interestingly, the dad also told me that most of the kids in his son's APUSH class didn't pass that first test as they didn't do the assignment. Sad.

 

I found it strange that *next year's* AP English class had an assignment due the last day of school *this* year~~kids were still in the middle of finals and already had to write a 5 page paper for a class that hadn't started yet all the while preparing for finals in their current classes. I'm all for appropriate 'first day turn-ins', but I was just speechless at the 'it's due the last day of school' thing. I had never heard of that before!

 

Summer assignments don't bother me, and, in fact, I always have my kids working on *something* over the summer to keep the brain sharp, whether it's school-related or mind games. I was just stumped at the requirements of these particular assignments.

 

I think this is a great thread. I can't believe that I never thought to have ds check for first day assignments. I never had them, so it just didn't occur to me. I'm not horribly familiar with Blackboard (can't remember how ds signed up that first time), but I'll have to have him check his uni. I know he has a book to read for the Freshman Experience, but it's not mandatory... he'll just miss out on some fun activities first semester if he doesn't!

[Paige]

Assignments due on the first day are different, IMO, if you know about it before you register. Someone who has plans to spend all summer until the weekend before class starts doing something that means they cannot do other work could know that they can't take that class. Or, they will have lots of time to make arrangements or to do the work early.

 

It has nothing to do with being a lazy or bad student who doesn't care about learning if I would be unhappy to find an assignment due on the first day. It means I have plans and stuff to do. When I sign up for a class, it's kind of like a contract that begins on that day. I will plan to prepare for class a few days ahead of that, but anything that requires a lot of effort before that may not be possible. It assumes that the student is privileged enough to access computers off campus and privileged enough to have a significant amount of free time before the semester begins. I am privileged enough that for the most part I could do this now, but I may not have been able to when I was a student and neither would many of my friends. Many friends lived out of state and would not get to campus until the weekend before class started- because they lived on campus! So they couldn't get the books early and we were doing good just to move in, get our books, and read through the first chapters before Monday. I guess that's different now with amazon and online ways to find your books, but not everyone can do that even today.

[Dana]

. I guess that's different now with amazon and online ways to find your books, but not everyone can do that even today.

 

My assignments due first day are online. The online software is a requirement and comes bundled with the text if bought at the bookstore. Students can also buy access separately online. Students can get temporary access for two weeks online if they're waiting for financial aid, so all a student needs is computer access. That's available at public libraries around town as well as on campus.

[Jane in NC]

My assignments due first day are online. The online software is a requirement and comes bundled with the text if bought at the bookstore. Students can also buy access separately online. Students can get temporary access for two weeks online if they're waiting for financial aid, so all a student needs is computer access. That's available at public libraries around town as well as on campus.

 

So what is your policy, Dana, if someone adds the class on the first day of the term? Are they responsible for having the assignment or do you have a grace period?

[Dana]

There's a grace period.

In the Internet class, there isn't, but that's departmental policy. Students have to attend an orientation class before start of semester and if they don't, they're dropped.

 

For my on campus class, when I have had assignments due first night, I've often emailed students who join when I see them on the roster or had extra assignments where they can drop one or two and that can count towards it.

The biggest issue I see though is when students think that college is like high school and they can attend and that'll be enough to pass. I'll do anything I can do to convince them that this is different and I expect them to work. Some of them never get it though. Very discouraging.

[msk]

The biggest issue I see though is when students think that college is like high school and they can attend and that'll be enough to pass. I'll do anything I can do to convince them that this is different and I expect them to work. Some of them never get it though. Very discouraging.

 

 

Wow, this was an epiphany for me! I hadn't realized one could pass high school classes by attending without turning in any work beyond things done during class time. But clearly, this is the assumption some of my students in CC are operating under, although I hadn't realized why before. I tell them and tell them until I'm blue in the face that they MUST turn in assignments in order to pass (I assign take-home essays and often have few or no in-class exams per se), but every semester I have one or two who turn in NOTHING and have a grade of zero for the entire semester! Having past experience passing just for showing up may explain why some of them just don't get it, I guess. (Although with systems like Blackboard that let students check on their grade anytime so easily, you'd think it would sink in at some point...)

 

As for first-day assignments, I think it's reasonable for college courses to have one that takes a few hours to complete, with a grace period for new students who might not have known to check the website or might have had issues with their registration and web access. I agree about not wanting to waste the first day of class, most instuctors I know think it sets a poor tone for the semeseter. I'd be surprised if the first-day assignment were a really major assignment, though, unless there had been some extra communication about it ahead of time.

[Dana]

Our state has a policy where the grading scale starts at 50. I definitely see the effect of this with students in recent years. A zero in my class is a zero. I do show them averages and how one zero and 3 100s gets you to barely passing for my class. I also show them repeatedly where to see their current grade online.

 

You can lead a horse to water....

[Barbara H]

 

You can lead a horse to water....

 

 

But, you can't make him understand there will be no extra credit available.

[regentrude]

But, you can't make him understand there will be no extra credit available.

 

 

No, apparently not.

Ever single semester, I encounter the same requests in my classes. It is stated clearly in the syllabus that the grade cuts are fixed and will not be adjusted, and I announce repeatedly before the end of the semester that there will be no negotiations (the students have several opportunities to earn more points for homework and in class work than are counted towards their grade, to make up for illness and emergencies, and they may submit any assignment for a regrade in the next class following the assignment's return.)

 

Here are a few samples of the emails I received, all from after the final exam:

I looked at my grade today and noticed that I missed my desired C by four points. That is a very close margin and I was wondering I could come in and see if we can find four points somewhere.

 

I know and understand that you grade relative to our performance in the class and that the cut offs are what is down, but I was wondering if there was any chance a couple points were missed somewhere in the grading.

 

Just so you guys know: the Final was multiple choice.)

 

I am emailing you because I was hoping to discuss how close to a B I was in your class and possibly hope to get your understanding, and be able to raise it to a 79.50%. At the moment I have exactly a 79% in your class with the end materials. I know that I tried my very best in your class and definitely worked to get a B

 

I was wondering if there is anything I can do to get the 9 points needed to receive an A in your class. I worked extremely hard this semester in physics and I studied for hours for the final and by looking at the grades on the final I did pretty well comparatively to others. I just really wanted an A so bad in your class this semester.

[Dana]

I would probably tell the one with a 79 that even if he got to a 79.5, that still isn't an 80, so it would still be a C.

Very glad I'm not teaching this summer.

I don't get those emails typically, but I'm sure it helps that I replace their lowest test with the final if it helps, but they don't see that in the online software, so it's rare that someone ends up right on the border. Much less grade grubbing.