Having kids start college at 12??

[*Michelle*]

My preference would be to somehow find a really, really high level high school program that puts her with other talented kids her age, rather than put her in college classes with people above her age that really don't have the depth of discussion that she craves. Unfortunately, such programs seem to be few, far between, and come with either the requirement of living in a specific state or heavy price tags. We might be able to swing private high school, but only if we don't need to pay anything for college.

 

What do you think about online discussion classes, like those offered by Angelicum Academy?

[regentrude]

Is every kid who might get labelled "gifted" because she scored in the top 10% on the FCAT capable of acing college-level math? Of course not. But I suspect there are a lot more out there who might thrive on a whole lot more challenge than our educational system -- which likes to put people in neatly defined boxes based on chronology rather than ability -- normally allows.

 

I absolutely agree with the bolded!

(This is exactly the reason we homeschool.)

[regentrude]

Just listening quietly to the conversation :)

 

Dicentra, I'm from the Netherlands and we do not have anything like DE. It sounds like a neat option. The only way to get access to university courses here is *after* having passed *all* (10-11) state exams.

 

Tress, are you sure there is no way for gifted students to attend university part time while still in school?

 

In Germany, you must pass the Abitur to be admitted to university as a full-time student, but gifted school kids can attend university courses part time while still being in a regular school. This is called "Schuelerstudium"; some kids from my German gifted board are doing this.

[Alira]

On a side note - do any other countries have dual enrollment besides the U.S.? I've heard of something somewhat similar here in Ontario but it's for students that are heading to tech voc training so that they can do part of an apprenticeship for a trade while still in high school. As far as I know, nothing like DE exists here for kids that are headed for university.

In my experience in Ontario and Newfoundland (we moved to the US in 2009, so I'm not sure how much has changed), dual enrollment is available, but not nearly as common. In Newfoundland, one high school does not offer AP classes, and instead had a dual enrollment agreement with the university. In Ontario, and for kids from other schools in Newfoundland, dual enrollment was arranged on a case-by-case basis.

[maize]

Not particularly relevant to the discussion, but too funny not to share: I was reading this thread and the linked news report right before bed last night; I then proceeded to try to sleep with a very restless baby who wanted to nurse all night. The result was a very odd dream in which my baby (8 months old) was enrolled in a college math class, and I was worried because said baby kept nursing instead of doing the coursework. My take away message: wait until a child is weaned before enrolling him in college classes.

 

:D

[quark]

Not particularly relevant to the discussion, but too funny not to share: I was reading this thread and the linked news report right before bed last night; I then proceeded to try to sleep with a very restless baby who wanted to nurse all night. The result was a very odd dream in which my baby (8 months old) was enrolled in a college math class, and I was worried because said baby kept nursing instead of doing the coursework. My take away message: wait until a child is weaned before enrolling him in college classes.

 

:D

 

 

:lol: Was listening in quietly then had to respond to this. :) A fellow vivid dreamer here so I understand!

[Tress]

Tress, are you sure there is no way for gifted students to attend university part time while still in school?

 

In Germany, you must pass the Abitur to be admitted to university as a full-time student, but gifted school kids can attend university courses part time while still being in a regular school. This is called "Schuelerstudium"; some kids from my German gifted board are doing this.

 

 

I can't use emoticons on my ipad, but imagine a VERY surprised smiley here!

 

We apparently do have opportunities for gifted students to attend university part time. Woooohoooo. I had never even heard of it, but apparently the Technical Universities have recently started pre-university programs in which 11-12th grade students can attend. It looks like there isn't yet much choice in courses you can take....but still. My kids are young, who knows what's possible in a couple of years. (really happy smiley here)

[Dicentra]

I think maybe I'm confusing two different things. When folks on these boards talk about DE, are they talking about having highly gifted kids who start university early and earn a 4 year Bachelor's degree while still a teen? Or is that something different? I'm assuming that, here in Ontario, if there was an HG or PG kid who was ready to attend university at 12, then certainly that student's individual case would be considered and he/she would have the opportunity to attend. I thought that DE was different - it was something that was offered to all high schoolers (in states that participate) and that students with high enough test scores could participate. Those students would then take classes that would count towards their high school diploma and/or university credit. In my first scenario, the HG or PG student would already have completed all high school course work and would just be working on university level classes. Does a DE program mean that the last two years of high school (at the academic/honours level) are equivalent to the first two years of university?

 

Or am I just completed confused? :huh:

[regentrude]

I think maybe I'm confusing two different things. When folks on these boards talk about DE, are they talking about having highly gifted kids who start university early and earn a 4 year Bachelor's degree while still a teen? Or is that something different? I'm assuming that, here in Ontario, if there was an HG or PG kid who was ready to attend university at 12, then certainly that student's individual case would be considered and he/she would have the opportunity to attend. I thought that DE was different - it was something that was offered to all high schoolers (in states that participate) and that students with high enough test scores could participate. Those students would then take classes that would count towards their high school diploma and/or university credit. In my first scenario, the HG or PG student would already have completed all high school course work and would just be working on university level classes. Does a DE program mean that the last two years of high school (at the academic/honours level) are equivalent to the first two years of university?

 

DE is a way for high school students to take college classes, either on the college campus or taught at the high school, while still in high school, satisfying both a high school requirement and counting as college credit (thus: dual enrollment).

This is typically done for selected classes, not across the board.

 

Early college programs for gifted kids are not the same thing. Some early college programs are residential on a college campus where the students complete two years of college during their 11th12th grade high school years. Others are full college programs where the young student has completed high school and attends an entire four year program; that's what Jenny's DD did, if I remember correctly.

[Dicentra]

 

DE is a way for high school students to take college classes, either on the college campus or taught at the high school, while still in high school, satisfying both a high school requirement and counting as college credit (thus: dual enrollment).

This is typically done for selected classes, not across the board.

 

Early college programs for gifted kids are not the same thing. Some early college programs are residential on a college campus where the students complete two years of college during their 11th12th grade high school years. Others are full college programs where the young student has completed high school and attends an entire four year program; that's what Jenny's DD did, if I remember correctly.

 

 

Thanks, Regentrude. :) I'm going to ask a few more questions but please know that I'm not specifically pestering you and anyone can jump in if Regentrude is tired of the pestering :) - I'm just trying to understand.

 

I'm still not seeing the difference between DE and the first scenario you mentioned for early college, though. Is it that in the DE case the classes will count towards the high school diploma and in the first example of early college you mentioned, the courses don't count towards a diploma? Are they still the same courses? I guess what I'm asking is are the university courses taken by a DE student the same courses that would be taken by a fully enrolled university student in their first two years? Or are DE courses high school versions of college courses? If the first two years of university are equivalent to the last two years of high school, why even have the first two years of university? Why not just graduate from high school and then do the equivalent of 3rd and 4th year university courses and then award a Bachelor's degree? Take physics - if a student takes high school honours physics (not a DE course) or takes a university level physics course as a DE student, is there a difference in the difficulty of the course work? I know that AP courses are "supposed" to be the level of first year university but when folks talk about DE courses, it sometimes sounds as though they are being substituted for standard high school courses.

 

Sorry - that's probably about as clear as mud. :) I think my confusion is arising from remembering my own university days (20 years ago - eek!). In first year chem, maybe the first semester was review of high school honours chem and after that it was new material. Even while it was review, the material was presented at a higher level - questions that required a higher level of thinking. I took first year English ('cause I was considering med school and that was a requirement). It wasn't a writing class - it was a lit analysis class - there was no writing instruction. They assumed that everyone already knew how to write papers by the time we got to university. By 3rd and 4th year university, I was taking courses like "Structural Transformations in Organic Chemistry", "Instrumental Analysis", "Advanced Chemical Techniques", etc. I'm just trying to imagine coming to these courses without my 2nd year courses where I had Organic Chem, Intermediate Biochem, and Phys Chem. I think that's why I'm confused - if I'm comparing my experience to a DE experience, are DE students taking Organic and Biochem in Grade 12? I don't think I went to a particularly top notch university here in Canada. Has university changed so much in the last 20 years that my experience isn't even comparable anymore? Or is it a difference between university experiences in different countries?

 

(Sorry - that was more than a "few" questions, wasn't it? :leaving: )

[regentrude]

I'm still not seeing the difference between DE and the first scenario you mentioned for early college, though. Is it that in the DE case the classes will count towards the high school diploma and in the first example of early college you mentioned, the courses don't count towards a diploma? Are they still the same courses? I guess what I'm asking is are the university courses taken by a DE student the same courses that would be taken by a fully enrolled university student in their first two years? Or are DE courses high school versions of college courses?

 

DE courses are not high school versions, they are college courses (albeit some schools have an instructor teach them at the campus of the school.) What a fully enrolled student takes during the first two years depends entirely on his major - so not general answer is possible. And high school students choose different classes for dual enrollment as well.

It may also be that the student later enrolls full time at a university that does not accept all the college credits earned in high school, because the courses may not fulfill the requirements of that major. But still, those are college courses.

In an early entrance program, the student does not take any "high school" courses at all; the last two years of high school are entirely replaced by college courses. Only highly qualified students are accepted into these programs; the bar for dual enrollment is much lower. In some cases, all you have to do is be of a certain age to be allowed to take a community college placement test. At some universities, however, the academic criteria for dual enrollment admission are higher than the criteria for admission as a regular student.

 

If the first two years of university are equivalent to the last two years of high school, why even have the first two years of university? Why not just graduate from high school and then do the equivalent of 3rd and 4th year university courses and then award a Bachelor's degree?

Take physics - if a student takes high school honours physics (not a DE course) or takes a university level physics course as a DE student, is there a difference in the difficulty of the course work? I know that AP courses are "supposed" to be the level of first year university but when folks talk about DE courses, it sometimes sounds as though they are being substituted for standard high school courses.

 

The first two years of university are not equivalent to the last two years of high school.

The dually enrolled students do not take a full college load. They typically only take one or two courses per semester.

With physics, there are different levels; a high school honors course is usually not comparable with a course at college. AP Physics B is comparable to a college class for non-STEM students. AP C may by comparable with a course for majors at an average school, but not at a selective one.

There are definitely many college courses that are below the level of what a strong high school class for the best students can achieve - but those students who complete this kind of course work in high school can attend a good four year university with a far higher level.

 

Keep in mind that what you may remember from your university is not representative for all colleges in the US. The quality and level vary widely. In many cases community college is not much different from honors high school class work, whereas classes at four year universities tend to be more difficult. It also depends on the major.

I have high school students who take calculus based physics for physics majors at a STEM university as their dual enrollment course, a rigorous weed-out class with a 25% fail rate. This is very different from taking Composition 1 at community college.

 

So sorry, there are no one-size-fits-all answers, because the diversity of colleges in the US creates a continuous spectrum from top universities to colleges that are glorified high schools.

[Dicentra]

Thank you so much, Regentrude, for taking the time to answer in such detail - truly appreciated. :)

 

I think I'm getting it now. My main stumbling block was, as I said, that I was having a difficult time envisioning all of these 17 year olds taking Organic or Biochem (or the equivalent in difficulty for the humanities) in Grade 12 (assuming they did first year courses in Grade 11). Not to say that there aren't some who would be capable but I would think they would be of the HG/PG early college type and would be a fairly small number.

 

Keep in mind that what you may remember from your university is not representative for all colleges in the US. The quality and level vary widely. In many cases community college is not much different from honors high school class work, whereas classes at four year universities tend to be more difficult. It also depends on the major.

I have high school students who take calculus based physics for physics majors at a STEM university as their dual enrollment course, a rigorous weed-out class with a 25% fail rate. This is very different from taking Composition 1 at community college.

 

So sorry, there are no one-size-fits-all answers, because the diversity of colleges in the US creates a continuous spectrum from top universities to colleges that are glorified high schools.

 

It seems like what I'm remembering as a Canadian university experience from 20 years ago is more similar to a European university experience, then? No entrance exams here, though. I remember all of my first year classes being rigorous weed-out classes - that was the point of them, I think. :D There were around 3000 students taking first year chem and around 30 in my 3rd and 4th year organic chem classes. Granted, some of those students from first year chem went into different fields so it wasn't as though 2970 of them failed but first year classes were presented as weeding classes - the profs would even tell us so at the start of the course. I particularly remember first year physics as doing extensive weeding. :D Full year course (8 months), exam in April on the entire course, no formula sheet, no graphing or programmable calculators (didn't exist), and 3 hours long if I remember correctly. I think it was partly alg based and partly calc based - maybe second semester was calc based? It wasn't the engineering physics course - that was different. This was just the reg university physics that most science students took.

[regentrude]

I particularly remember first year physics as doing extensive weeding. :D Full year course (8 months), exam in April on the entire course, no formula sheet, no graphing or programmable calculators (didn't exist), and 3 hours long if I remember correctly. I think it was partly alg based and partly calc based - maybe second semester was calc based? It wasn't the engineering physics course - that was different. This was just the reg university physics that most science students took.

 

 

That would be similar to the format when I was attending a German university. There were no quizzes, graded homework, nudging and coaxing of absent or underperforming students - there was maybe one written test, and a comprehensive oral final at the end of the semester or year, and that was it. Nobody took attendance in class or checked your homework - you were evaluated based on what you knew at the end. A much more sensible way of dealing with adults.

 

In contrast, most courses here give multiple written tests throughout the semester, grade homework (to give students an "incentive" to complete the homework), do pop quizzes (to give students an "incentive" to read the assigned reading and come to class). Basically, there is a lot more micromanaging and hand holding going on. The reason, of course, is again the high school system: students enter university having been spoon fed predigested morsels of knowledge and are often unable to read a textbook and structure their own time without the help of detailed schedules and syllabi. Add to that that students are a source of revenue and universities are concerned about retention, and you arrive at the current system. (In Germany, students do not pay tuition, so the university has no benefit from coaxing along a weak student who is lacking aptitude for his field of study.)

[boscopup]

I think I'm getting it now. My main stumbling block was, as I said, that I was having a difficult time envisioning all of these 17 year olds taking Organic or Biochem (or the equivalent in difficulty for the humanities) in Grade 12 (assuming they did first year courses in Grade 11). Not to say that there aren't some who would be capable but I would think they would be of the HG/PG early college type and would be a fairly small number.

 

 

When I was in school, the DE option was *mostly* used for math. In fact, I can't think of any kids in my graduating class that took anything else via DE, and there were only 3 kids that did DE for math. It was pretty limited at that time (and these 3 students were brilliant... 2 went to MIT and 1 to Yale). These were students that had gone to the high school in 8th grade to take algebra (parents had to drive them over there), and they did AP BC Calc in 11th grade, then did Calc 3 and Diff. Eq. at the local uni for 12th grade. They took a regular uni class. The class was mostly uni students with these few high school students thrown in. Since this uni is popular amongst working engineers, many classes are available in the evenings, so that worked out well for these students (they had to sit in our AP Calc class that year as a "study hall" type of thing, since they didn't do their DE class during the school day).

 

I think DE is probably more popular these days, especially in some areas. I don't know if it's changed in my local area. I know the uni that is used for these math courses still only allows 12th graders, whereas the CC allows 11th graders to do DE. I imagine the CC is used more by homeschoolers, probably.

 

I just looked at one local school system's info about DE with the uni (again, 12th grade only), and they students can only take 100+ level classes - no remedial classes. They also must have completed 12th grade high school English prior to taking any English courses at the uni (I'm not sure how they manage that... advancing in English wasn't an option when I was in school, except going to honors/AP track instead of regular track). They can also do math, science, foreign language, social science, or technical courses.

[Crimson Wife]

The DE program in the district where we lived from 2006-2009 is specifically limited to NON-honors track students. It is aimed at students at risk of dropping out and the selection criteria specifically states that the program is looking for kids who are underachieving compared to their potential. The classes that students in the DE program take tend to be mostly of a vocational nature. Students who complete the program do graduate with both a H.S. diploma and an associate's degree but not usually in an academic field. According to their website, this year's graduating seniors are majoring in fields such as Fire Technology, Criminal Justice, Ethnic Studies, Multimedia Design, Photography, and General Studies.

 

I guess this is a good thing if it keeps the students from dropping out of H.S., but I have always felt that there should be a second, more academically rigorous DE program for high achievers. Why punish those kids who have worked hard and done well in H.S. by excluding them from earning DE credit?

[Laura Corin]

Listening in too.

No dual enrollment here either and you also have to pass all high school exams and earn a certificate before entering university.

 

 

As far as I know this is the same in the UK: you can go to school or to 'sixth form college' (academic or vocational studies for pupils aged 16-18) but classes for university credit are only available when you have finished your school/sixth form college exams, I think.

 

Laura

[Melissa B]

Like so much else about homeschooling, the answer to most of the questions in your first paragraph is, "It depends."

 

Florida doesn't actually require homeschoolers to do anything specific for high school. We played around with the idea of using a correspondence school or umbrella option to make her diploma look more "real," but ultimately decided it wasn't worth the money to us.

 

Instead, I looked up the requirements for high school graduation in our county and also what is required for admission to state universities and based our requirements on that list. Once my daughter crossed over to doing high school-level output as well as input, I made up my own transcript form (based on samples I found online) and started keeping records. She took a couple of classes each year through the state's online virtual school, but we mostly did our own thing. For any classes I designed, I wrote course descriptions and kept lists of all of the books she read and any materials she used, what assignments she completed, etc.

 

Because she tended to want to study lots of different things, she ended up taking more than the typical number of courses each year. We hadn't planned on graduating her as early as we did. Instead, I figured we'd just keep going until she was ready to move on, and she'd just graduate with more credits than usual. As it turned out, though, she was really wilting at home by the end of that third year, and it was clear she needed new challenges and some real academic and social peers.

 

Outside of an umbrella school of some kind, there is no "Proper Credit Fairy." Homeschoolers decide how much credit their students earn, when they earn it, etc. So, when it was time, I gathered up all of the notes and records I'd been keeping, formatted all of the course descriptions into a nice, neat portfolio, finished off the transcript, and sent them off with her application.

 

As for the second question, I can speak only for Florida. "Dual enrollment" is available for only two years for each student, equivalent to their junior and senior years of high school. After that, no matter whether they are 14 or 30, free dual enrollment ends.

 

However, like any other student, they are eligible for scholarships and grants and all financial aid both merit based and need based. A student who is truly stellar academically might certainly find a four-year university who offered a full ride for that last two years. And one who has a good academic record and can demonstrate serious financial need might end up paying little or nothing to complete a degree. In neither case would being under 18 affect those opportunities.

 

 

That is actually decided college by college and not by the state. The college my dd attends allows 30 (free) credit hours per year for up to 4 years.

[Melissa B]

Yes, those of us who are now debating moving to FL wehn their child is high school age want to know.

 

 

You must also be a state resident so you would have to move a year early. :D

[Dicentra]

 

That would be similar to the format when I was attending a German university. There were no quizzes, graded homework, nudging and coaxing of absent or underperforming students - there was maybe one written test, and a comprehensive oral final at the end of the semester or year, and that was it. Nobody took attendance in class or checked your homework - you were evaluated based on what you knew at the end. A much more sensible way of dealing with adults.

 

In contrast, most courses here give multiple written tests throughout the semester, grade homework (to give students an "incentive" to complete the homework), do pop quizzes (to give students an "incentive" to read the assigned reading and come to class). Basically, there is a lot more micromanaging and hand holding going on. The reason, of course, is again the high school system: students enter university having been spoon fed predigested morsels of knowledge and are often unable to read a textbook and structure their own time without the help of detailed schedules and syllabi. Add to that that students are a source of revenue and universities are concerned about retention, and you arrive at the current system. (In Germany, students do not pay tuition, so the university has no benefit from coaxing along a weak student who is lacking aptitude for his field of study.)

 

 

I seem to remember a mid-term exam in December, handing in formal lab reports to be marked, and then the final in April. I think most finals were worth at least 50-60% of the final grade. No oral finals - I like that idea, though. I think all of my uni math courses consisted of a 30% mid-term exam and a 70% final exam - that's it - nothing else.

 

I was thinking a bit about the difference between the U.S., Canadian, and European systems and was wondering if maybe subsidized university education was a factor. Our tuition here is partly subsidized by the government but it's not like the merit aid situation in the States - it's not a case by case basis - tuition is simply lower for everyone. Current undergrad tuition varies from province to province but ranges from around $2700-$7000 per year (not including books or living expenses). This link gives the difference between what Canadian students pay for tuition at a Canadian university versus what an international student would pay (the actual or unsubsidized cost per year):

http://www.aucc.ca/canadian-universities/facts-and-stats/tuition-fees-by-university/

 

I've been away from university for awhile, though, and I'm wondering how much it's changed. I sometimes toss around the idea of sending dd to university in Europe if we could ever manage to swing the cost. Regentrude, if my father was born in Germany, is there any benefit for me or my daughter in terms of her attending university in Germany? We still have relatives there as well. I seem to remember something about privileges for being the child of a former German citizen but probably not two generations away... Or maybe I'm remembering completely incorrectly.

[regentrude]

Regentrude, if my father was born in Germany, is there any benefit for me or my daughter in terms of her attending university in Germany? We still have relatives there as well. I seem to remember something about privileges for being the child of a former German citizen but probably not two generations away... Or maybe I'm remembering completely incorrectly.

 

I am sorry, but I do not know how it works with attending university in Germany as a foreigner. I know that you can attend if you have OK test scores, even without a German high school diploma, but I do not know about tuition.

[Dicentra]

 

I am sorry, but I do not know how it works with attending university in Germany as a foreigner. I know that you can attend if you have OK test scores, even without a German high school diploma, but I do not know about tuition.

 

No worries. :) I just thought I'd ask. I'll do some Googling and see what I can find out.

[Jenny in Florida]

I absolutely agree with the bolded!

(This is exactly the reason we homeschool.)

 

 

Yep, it was one reason we homeschooled, too . . . until homeschooling just didn't work for that kid any longer.

 

By the time she was 12, we were watching her literally wilt in front of our eyes. She was miserable, and she was tuning out. We could (and did) offer her as much academic challenge as possible in the form of online and distance education, not to mention the same kind of flexible, rigorous curriculum we'd always provided at home. What she needed and wanted were peers, both academic and social, and instructors who knew and loved their subjects with whom she could interact meaningfully in person.

 

We tried everything we could dream up to provide her those opportunities while still homeschooling. However, because of the aforementioned rigid, age-based systems that prevail, we found almost all of those doors closed to her.

 

This was also the kid who began asking (pestering) me about college prep when she was nine years old. She always needed/needs to know where she's going and to see herself making definitive, visible progress toward a goal. And she hates wasting time. And, while she loves to learn just for the sake of learning, she did "school" because she wanted to achieve goals. So, in her view, if there was a college degree to be earned and she was ready to start earning it, she saw no reason whatsoever to wait around just because of the inconvenience of choronology.

 

To be honest, I was terrified for her, because it was clear to me that she had reached a point of frustration and sadness similar to the one at which I found myself around age 15, but she was so much younger. I remembered so vividly that trapped, desperately bored feeling, and I'm all too aware of the long-term life consequences of some of the decisions I made in various attempts to escape it.

 

So, when she fell in love with the early entrance possibility and we saw the light in her eyes again, we decided we had to go for it.

[DawnM]

The ONLY thing we might remotely consider is dual enrollment in the CC at 16 or 17.

 

I want them to be kids and enjoy being on a swim team or finish Eagle requirements for scouts and have fun.

 

Does it really matter if they start working in the "real world" at 17, 22, or even 30 ultimately?

 

What is the hurry?

 

Sending our kids to college at 12 is NOT for us.

 

Dawn

 

 

This.

 

Just because my child has the ability to read Anna Kareninia, doesn't mean they are mature enough to. Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

 

Homeschooling, for my family, is not about a race to get to and done with college.

 

[Jenny in Florida]

The ONLY thing we might remotely consider is dual enrollment in the CC at 16 or 17.

 

I want them to be kids and enjoy being on a swim team or finish Eagle requirements for scouts and have fun.

 

Does it really matter if they start working in the "real world" at 17, 22, or even 30 ultimately?

 

What is the hurry?

 

Sending our kids to college at 12 is NOT for us.

 

Dawn

 

 

So, what would you do if you had a kid who had not the remotest interest in swim team or scouts or pretty much any typical "kid" activity, despite your best efforts to introduce and encourage such things? What if you had a kid who didn't particularly enjoy spending time with his or her age peers? What about a kid who had a passion and was living for the time when he or she would be able to pursue it full time, in college and then in the real world? What if doing that was the thing this particular kid actually found most exciting and fun?

 

What if the kid is fully capable of moving forward and is, himself, in a hurry to do so?

 

Would you stand in his or her way because your personal bias suggests he should be doing something else?

[Crimson Wife]

Does it really matter if they start working in the "real world" at 17, 22, or even 30 ultimately?

 

For women in particular, it can matter very much whether they finish their education at 22 vs. 30. Fertility starts to decline at 27 and a big part of the reason why so many of my friends have struggled with infertility, repeated miscarriages, and scary premature deliveries is because they waited until their 30's to start having kids (mostly because they spent much of their 20's in grad school). I saw my parents' friends go through the same thing when they were in their 30's and 40's, and wanting to avoid that situation played into my decision to drop pre-med at 20. I knew that I wanted to have a bunch of kids and somewhat spread apart. Being in med school until 26 and training until 29-31 would make that timeline difficult. If I could've gone to college even 2 years earlier, maybe I would be a doctor today.

[retiredHSmom]

Yep, it was one reason we homeschooled, too . . . until homeschooling just didn't work for that kid any longer.

 

By the time she was 12, we were watching her literally wilt in front of our eyes. She was miserable, and she was tuning out. We could (and did) offer her as much academic challenge as possible in the form of online and distance education, not to mention the same kind of flexible, rigorous curriculum we'd always provided at home. What she needed and wanted were peers, both academic and social, and instructors who knew and loved their subjects with whom she could interact meaningfully in person.

 

We tried everything we could dream up to provide her those opportunities while still homeschooling. However, because of the aforementioned rigid, age-based systems that prevail, we found almost all of those doors closed to her.

 

This was also the kid who began asking (pestering) me about college prep when she was nine years old. She always needed/needs to know where she's going and to see herself making definitive, visible progress toward a goal. And she hates wasting time. And, while she loves to learn just for the sake of learning, she did "school" because she wanted to achieve goals. So, in her view, if there was a college degree to be earned and she was ready to start earning it, she saw no reason whatsoever to wait around just because of the inconvenience of choronology.

 

To be honest, I was terrified for her, because it was clear to me that she had reached a point of frustration and sadness similar to the one at which I found myself around age 15, but she was so much younger. I remembered so vividly that trapped, desperately bored feeling, and I'm all too aware of the long-term life consequences of some of the decisions I made in various attempts to escape it.

 

So, when she fell in love with the early entrance possibility and we saw the light in her eyes again, we decided we had to go for it.

 

My daughter is currently a sophomore in the same program that Jenny's daughter attended and this was our experience too. My daughter is very goal oriented and wasn't enjoying being a kid. We didn't find out about PEG until my DD was 13 and it was in the middle of the year so she had to wait until spring to apply so she was 14 when she started. She would have capable and glad to have started a year earlier.

 

It has been the best choice that we ever let her make.

[Mandy in TN]

See, I just can't rule out the possibility of early college, because my youngest has visited his older brothers at college. He has been there and he loves being there. He hates to leave. He loves the whole environment and has said that if he thought he was ready he would be there- as in he would pack his bags and leave. So, what happens if he decides he is ready before he is 18yo? What happens if he prints out all the paperwork, fills it out, and begs me to let him go? Am I going to force him to stay home?

 

I may never have to deal with this. OTOH, at 10yo he is 4'2" and 50lbs, so he will not be staying home so that he can participate in sports activities with his age level peers. lol Not to mention the fact that when given the option, he will always choose to hang out with teens and adults over children his age. One thing I do know- if he stays at home until he is 18yo (and he may), it will be because he chose to stay and not because I forced him to do so.

 

Even though I acknowledge that general studies classes at many institutions will be less rigorous than what I would be able to provide at home, it may be time for him to move on- not for the level of the introductory literature course but for the whole environment and so he feels that he is moving forward toward his goal (whatever that may be). It may never happen, but I am not going to close the door on the option or attempt to decide if it is the right option for another family. :)

 

Mandy

[regentrude]

By the time she was 12, we were watching her literally wilt in front of our eyes. She was miserable, and she was tuning out. We could (and did) offer her as much academic challenge as possible in the form of online and distance education, not to mention the same kind of flexible, rigorous curriculum we'd always provided at home. What she needed and wanted were peers, both academic and social, and instructors who knew and loved their subjects with whom she could interact meaningfully in person.

 

 

Yes, and that is something you simply can not provide at home, even with all the technological advantages, online courses, Skype etc. My DD is a bit similar; she craves interaction and yearns for academic peers. A rigorous college level education via distance learning would do absolutely nothing for her; she needs a classroom, a live instructor, other students in person.

I consider ourselves fortunate that taking classes at the local university since she was 13 seems to satisfy this need and that we do not have to resort to an early entrance program somewhere away. We have debated this opportunity and would have used it if she had stayed in public school and this would have been the only way to give her the needed environment. With the flexibility homeschooling afforded us, we weighed the pros and cons (at the age when she had to decide, she had started leasing and training her horse, so that was a factor in the decision), and I am glad that she thrives with the combination of hard college classes and completely free unstructured at home education, while living at home.

 

She still has the problem that it is difficult to form deep friendships with the other students, because they are at such a different point in their lives; this might have been easier if surrounded by like-minded kids of similar abilities. But she is looking ahead to full-time university somewhere else; she will graduate one year early at age 17, with several semesters of college classes under her belt (but not necessarily with the goal of completing college more quickly.)

 

Jenny, I am curious, if you don't mind me asking: how is your DD getting her intellectual stimulation and peers now that she has graduated and is back home? I would imagine it difficult to fulfill this need - could you tell us how that works out for her? Thanks!

[regentrude]

CW, you bring up a great point. I have known women who got around it by starting their families after their master's, planning only 2 closely spaced children, then finishing their PhD around the time the eldest graduated high school. That put them back in the workforce at a reasonable age, long enough to earn a pension. Of course, now pension doesn't matter, but they'd still be young enough to fund a reasonable retirement w/health care on their own should the spouse die prematurely.

 

 

In my field (physics), many women have children after completing their PhD and one or two postdocs.

I had my first when I was 28, after having finished my first postdoc position.

 

The bigger issue is not when to have the kids, but rather whether and how long to stay home with them; in some fields, more than 1-2 years is the death sentence to a career. All my female friends in the field who decided to stay home longer re-oriented themselves career wise and never went back to cutting edge research.

[Jenny in Florida]

Jenny, I am curious, if you don't mind me asking: how is your DD getting her intellectual stimulation and peers now that she has graduated and is back home? I would imagine it difficult to fulfill this need - could you tell us how that works out for her? Thanks!

 

 

It was a little tough the first year or so that she was home. She did stay in touch with several of her college friends, though, online and via phone and Skype, which helped. She also visited with a few of them in person when they could make that happen.

 

In the last several months, she has more or less crossed over so that she is socializing primarily with young adults, some of whom are still in college locally and others of whom are doing the same things she is, working and continuing her training and getting on with her life. Her career goal is theatre/performance, and she's done several shows since coming home that have put her into contact with others who share her passion and goals, as well as helping her to make helpful contacts in the local theatre community.

 

It took her a while to find her feet, but she's in a really good place right now.

[Dmmetler]

I can easily see my DD being in that place in a few years. She's already struggling with the social and emotional side, and at age 8, really does remind me of the place I was in during high school. I hope I can keep her happy at home, but I'm beginning to feel that I can't, and I'm starting to see the goal setting-for example, that I've told her that being able to write well is a prerequisite to taking "Real" college classes so she's really starting to focus on writing.

 

I laughed when she was 3 1/2 and the psychologist pointed me to some of Deborah Ruf's books, that said that a child at her level could typically finish high school by the age of 12, believing that, surely, this couldn't be my child. I'm not laughing anymore- I can truly see that, by age 12, she might not only be finished with high school content, but be in an emotional place where she NEEDS to start college for the intellectual stimulation. She's not athletic at all, and at age 8, is hitting walls on her physical activities, where she simply doesn't have the motor skills to move into the more serious teams. Girl scouts was a complete miss for her.

 

It's terrifying-and it's even more frustrating to regularly find myself painted as "pushing too hard" or trying to justify my ego.

[retiredHSmom]

 

It's terrifying-and it's even more frustrating to regularly find myself painted as "pushing too hard" or trying to justify my ego.

 

yep, I have even had "friends" tell me that they love their daughters too much to let them go away.

[Arcadia]

The bigger issue is not when to have the kids, but rather whether and how long to stay home with them; in some fields, more than 1-2 years is the death sentence to a career.

 

:iagree: I have friends who marry around 21-23 while doing their undergrad, have their kids while doing their masters in medicine and law, and have kids in preschool by the time they completed their postdocs. They do have their in-laws helping out with child care.

The ladies I know who have a postdoc in engineering and doing R&D also never stop work after finishing their post doc.

The only ones I know with postdoc who found it easier to rejoin the work force after staying home a few years are in the IT industry.

[Penelope]

Thank you so much, Regentrude, for taking the time to answer in such detail - truly appreciated. :)

 

I think I'm getting it now. My main stumbling block was, as I said, that I was having a difficult time envisioning all of these 17 year olds taking Organic or Biochem (or the equivalent in difficulty for the humanities) in Grade 12 (assuming they did first year courses in Grade 11). Not to say that there aren't some who would be capable but I would think they would be of the HG/PG early college type and would be a fairly small number.

 

 

 

It seems like what I'm remembering as a Canadian university experience from 20 years ago is more similar to a European university experience, then? No entrance exams here, though. I remember all of my first year classes being rigorous weed-out classes - that was the point of them, I think. :D There were around 3000 students taking first year chem and around 30 in my 3rd and 4th year organic chem classes. Granted, some of those students from first year chem went into different fields so it wasn't as though 2970 of them failed but first year classes were presented as weeding classes - the profs would even tell us so at the start of the course. I particularly remember first year physics as doing extensive weeding. :D Full year course (8 months), exam in April on the entire course, no formula sheet, no graphing or programmable calculators (didn't exist), and 3 hours long if I remember correctly. I think it was partly alg based and partly calc based - maybe second semester was calc based? It wasn't the engineering physics course - that was different. This was just the reg university physics that most science students took.

 

I don't know about the difference between now and twenty years ago, but even twenty years ago there was a huge difference between the types of classes and course load of science majors vs. some other majors. Maybe that accounts for one of the disconnect.

[Jenny in Florida]

I can easily see my DD being in that place in a few years. She's already struggling with the social and emotional side, and at age 8, really does remind me of the place I was in during high school. I hope I can keep her happy at home, but I'm beginning to feel that I can't, and I'm starting to see the goal setting-for example, that I've told her that being able to write well is a prerequisite to taking "Real" college classes so she's really starting to focus on writing.

 

I laughed when she was 3 1/2 and the psychologist pointed me to some of Deborah Ruf's books, that said that a child at her level could typically finish high school by the age of 12, believing that, surely, this couldn't be my child. I'm not laughing anymore- I can truly see that, by age 12, she might not only be finished with high school content, but be in an emotional place where she NEEDS to start college for the intellectual stimulation. She's not athletic at all, and at age 8, is hitting walls on her physical activities, where she simply doesn't have the motor skills to move into the more serious teams. Girl scouts was a complete miss for her.

 

It's terrifying-and it's even more frustrating to regularly find myself painted as "pushing too hard" or trying to justify my ego.

 

Oh yes, the "pushing" comments . . . I've lost count of the number of times I've explained that, far from "pushing" our daughter, my husband and I actually spent several years attempting to hang on for dear life as she pulled us along!

 

It's funny, too. I remember expressing to a friend of mine my apprehension when I did some calculating and realized that my daughter would quite likely be finishing high school at about age 12. My friend chuckled patronizingly and assured me that my daughter would slow down once she got to more advanced studies. She said something like, "I mean, don't get me wrong, Jenny. We all know she's brilliant, of course. But she'll still have to get through algebra and geometry and all of that stuff." I got the distinct impression I was being patted on the head right over the phone line. At the time, I felt appropriately chastised, assuming I was just another delusional parent who believes her kid is a genius . . .

[Jenny in Florida]

yep, I have even had "friends" tell me that they love their daughters too much to let them go away.

 

I've heard that, too, including from more than a few posters on these very boards.

 

My response is that, under the circumstances, I loved her too much to be selfish and keep her with me.

[Guest Desiree]

I went to college at 13, because I had finished literally every book that ABeka publishes for high school. My parents were concerned about compulsory attendance laws, and they didn't know what else to do with me. I CLEP'ed out of freshman year, and I earned a B.A. in Spanish and French (double major) with a double minor in Piano Performance and Piano Pedagogy, in just three years.

Neither my parents nor my college counselors offered me any assistance in finding scholarships. My college education was funded entirely by student loans.

Neither my parents nor my college counselors ever advised me on which classes to take, or what major to choose. I studied whatever interested me.

When I graduated, I found myself unemployable, in part due to my age, and in part due to my useless liberal arts degree. Eventually, I was hired as a public school teacher, once I finally turned twenty.

I say this to point out that early graduation is not all it is hacked up to be. Having a degree at such an early age gave me no tangible "head start" at life. Now, at age 29, I'm a stay at home mother, and I homeschool my own four children. My degree is in a box somewhere in my attic. I'm not convinced that I am a better homeschool mother on account of it. I'm certainly not a better homeschool mother on account of having earned it early. So, graduating early has not helped me in the long run either.

I don't know whether I will allow my children to enroll in college early. I do know that I will do things differently than my parents. I will offer more guidance, to ensure that my children are able to find suitable employment upon their graduation. I will not allow them to take out student loans. I will help them find scholarships to cover their expenses.

Most importantly, I will be aware that college is only one of many options for education. Instead of sticking to a workbook curriculum, only to have my children finish them all so quickly, I follow more of a Charlotte Mason approach. Instead of using a textbook for history, we read biographies and history books. Because we use this approach, I don't expect to find myself in the same situation that so flustered my parents. I foresee being able to teach my children most of what I learned in college before they ever step foot in a single college class. And I won't even charge them college tuition!

In today's age and time, where we can access any knowledge we want on our own, I think it's vital to teach our children to educate themselves. I don't believe college is necessary for every individual, even those who want to be well-educated.

However, I do have one daughter who wants to be a pediatric oncologist. She's only 9 now, but I would allow her to attend college early if she decides she wants. Her goals will require enough years of college that she won't be finished and still have to sit around and wait to be old enough to be employed, even if she started today.

So, I guess I have just argued both sides, proving that I have no answers! :huh:

[Jenny in Florida]

Neither my parents nor my college counselors offered me any assistance in finding scholarships. My college education was funded entirely by student loans.

Neither my parents nor my college counselors ever advised me on which classes to take, or what major to choose. I studied whatever interested me.

When I graduated, I found myself unemployable, in part due to my age, and in part due to my useless liberal arts degree. Eventually, I was hired as a public school teacher, once I finally turned twenty.

I say this to point out that early graduation is not all it is hacked up to be. Having a degree at such an early age gave me no tangible "head start" at life. Now, at age 29, I'm a stay at home mother, and I homeschool my own four children. My degree is in a box somewhere in my attic. I'm not convinced that I am a better homeschool mother on account of it. I'm certainly not a better homeschool mother on account of having earned it early. So, graduating early has not helped me in the long run either.

 

I'm so sorry you had such a negative experience. For what it's worth, I have some of the same frustrations/regrets, even though I was much closer to a traditional age when I started college (16).

 

I look back now, some three decades later, and sort of shake my head about all of the advice and help I didn't get, from high school straight on through my B.A. And I can work up a fine head of steamy resentment about all of it, from the lack of guidance to the "useless" liberal arts degree (English/creative writing) to the student debt I racked up because I didn't know better.

 

In the long run, though, my only real regret is that I didn't get to start earlier. Even though I "ended up" a stay-at-home mom, I do believe my degree has been invaluable. I know that, when I was in the work force prior to having kids and now that I'm tentatively trying to get back into it, the B.A. has been economically helpful. But, more importantly from my own point of view is the actual education I received, even at a state university. I'm consistently surprised at the things I take for granted that I know and understand that other folks with whom I interact don't get at all, and I can trace either the specific knowledge or the skills necessary to acquire it right back to my college education.

 

And, in my case, having that degree has absolutely, definitely, without a doubt made me a better teacher and mom to my kids. This is especially true because both of mine have entered or will enter college early, also. I've been able to draw on my own experiences, with all of their drawbacks and advantages, to offer my own kids the advice and guidance and support that I did not get. And, while my daughter's path through early college, graduation at 16 and "launching" into the world has not been entirely smooth or without growing pains, she certainly seems, at 18, to be in a much better place in virtually every way than either I or her father was at the same age. She's worked hard to get as far as she has, and her successes are her own. However, I think she would tell you that she recognizes and values our help and advice.

 

In her case, we truly felt that starting and finishing school early gave her the great gift of time -- to explore options, to experiment and fail, to change paths, to get started on a creative career while she still has a ton of energy and no familial or financial responsibilities to weigh her down. Unlike many graduates in their 20s who feel pressure to move out, move on, settle down, etc., and must therefore take and stay in any job that pays the bills, she has time and freedom to do internships and make the most of opportunities that offer a chance to grow but no paycheck. At an age when most of her contemporaries are fighting high school burnout and applying to college, she's got her degree and taken a gap year and almost completed an internsip and is in a job she enjoys that is allowing her to build a nest egg for her move to the big city.

 

Of course, every kid is different, and no single path is right even for kids from the same family. While full-time early college, with all of its challenges, made sense for my daughter, my equally bright but very different son is taking a more scenic route. Sending him to live and learn on a college campus at age 12 would have been a recipe for disaster, in part because it wasn't until quite recently that he had any clear vision of what he wanted to do after graduation. Only now that he has a goal in sight does it make sense to let him get started. And, even now, it'll be with a couple of courses at age 15.

 

"Early" absolutely doesn't mean "better" in every case. But, for the kids for whom it is right, it can make all the difference.

[retiredHSmom]

Neither my parents nor my college counselors offered me any assistance in finding scholarships. My college education was funded entirely by student loans.

Neither my parents nor my college counselors ever advised me on which classes to take, or what major to choose. I studied whatever interested me.

When I graduated, I found myself unemployable, in part due to my age, and in part due to my useless liberal arts degree. Eventually, I was hired as a public school teacher, once I finally turned twenty.

 

I guess the way that I see it is that these same things could have happened to you if you started college at 18.

 

My daughter was 14 when she began full-time residential college.

 

Because we have shown her how to find scholarships and talked with her endlessly about degree options she will graduate with less that $12,000 (probably none) and a useful degree.

 

She is well on track to graduate in 3 years with an Applied Mathematics major with double minors in Physics and Paino, knowing how hard it will be to get a job at 17 we have encouraged her to stay for the 4th year so that she will be 18 when she graduates. We have also encouraged her to participate in research projects and internships that will lead to job opportunities.

 

We are not trying to give her a "head start"on life but rather to meet her where she was at developmentally. She was ready to start college and we are just glad the opportunity existed.

[regentrude]

I want them to be kids and enjoy being on a swim team or finish Eagle requirements for scouts and have fun.

 

 

What if the child considered being in scouts or on swim team torture, and his idea of fun was doing hard math problems or chemistry experiments or analyzing Shakespeare?

What if the child could not relate to same age peers because she had vastly different interests and intellectual capabilities and her peers made fun of her interests - but she blossomed among young people 5-8 years older?

 

An adult's idea of what an enjoyable fun childhood should look like may be completely different from the things the child finds fun and enjoyable. And it is for THOSE kids that early college is a rescue from intellectual wilting.

[kiana]

What if the child considered being in scouts or on swim team torture, and his idea of fun was doing hard math problems or chemistry experiments or analyzing Shakespeare?

What if the child could not relate to same age peers because she had vastly different interests and intellectual capabilities and her peers made fun of her interests - but she blossomed among young people 5-8 years older?

 

An adult's idea of what an enjoyable fun childhood should look like may be completely different from the things the child finds fun and enjoyable. And it is for THOSE kids that early college is a rescue from intellectual wilting.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I remember someone telling my mother "Why do you make the kids read all those books? Why don't you let them run around and have fun?"

 

Meanwhile, I was smuggling books out of the house to read after she kicked me outside to go do something.

[*Michelle*]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I remember someone telling my mother "Why do you make the kids read all those books? Why don't you let them run around and have fun?"

 

Meanwhile, I was smuggling books out of the house to read after she kicked me outside to go do something.

 

That was me. With my dad's psychology textbook. :lol:

[Crimson Wife]

 

Meanwhile, I was smuggling books out of the house to read after she kicked me outside to go do something.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I used to do that with my dad's set of the Harvard classics. He had them proudly displayed in our living room, TBH I suspect as a bit of an educational snobbery thing. I didn't read the philosophy ones but I loved all the science and fiction ones. No wonder why TWTM and Mortimer J. Adler's Paideia books resonated so much with me when I became interested in homeschooling!

[shawthorne44]

...Meanwhile, I was smuggling books out of the house to read after she kicked me outside to go do something.

 

Did your parents ever try to ground you to your room? :lol:

Yeah, that worked well for my parents.

My MIL said she had to sneak her homework out of the house. Her mother didn't believe kids should have homework.

[Dana]

 

 

Did your parents ever try to ground you to your room? :lol:

Yeah, that worked well for my parents.

My MIL said she had to sneak her homework out of the house. Her mother didn't believe kids should have homework.

 

 

I was once grounded from reading.