s/o - Statements of Faith & Catholics

[Wheres Toto]

There is a local co-op that in their yahoo group posts and on the front page of their website talk like they are inclusive (and the name makes them sound very open) but if you read their SOF, it is very restrictive. It would exclude Catholics, but from my experience it would also exclude United Methodists and anyone else who is of a more liberal denomination.

 

There were a few things, some of which were already mentioned here, but the main one I noticed was having to take the Bible "as the LITERAL and inerrant word". I was very surprised because while there are "Christian" groups around here, I didn't expect to see that from a group that didn't refer to themselves as Christian. Plus the two most common religions in NJ are Catholic and Jewish so they are excluding a lot of people. (I grew up UMC, my mother is Catholic and my oldest was baptized and communioned Catholic so I have some experience with both)

 

I currently fall somewhere between Progressive Christianity and agnostic , but we just started attending a UMC church again. I've been very surprised to run into people who evidently don't include UMC when they refer to "Christian". That is not something I ever ran into until I became involved in the homeschool community.

[a27mom]

There is a local co-op that in their yahoo group posts and on the front page of their website talk like they are inclusive (and the name makes them sound very open) but if you read their SOF, it is very restrictive. It would exclude Catholics, but from my experience it would also exclude United Methodists and anyone else who is of a more liberal denomination.

 

There were a few things, some of which were already mentioned here, but the main one I noticed was having to take the Bible "as the LITERAL and inerrant word". I was very surprised because while there are "Christian" groups around here, I didn't expect to see that from a group that didn't refer to themselves as Christian.

 

 

Most evangelicals I know would be shocked to hear that Catholics would have an issue with that statement. I certainly didn't realize it prior to this thread. (I did know about the sola scriptura objection.). But I assumed it was considered literal and inerrant, as interpreted by the church of course.

[mommaduck]

When most people say they know "catholics that are christian", they will follow up with or mean that "they aren't really catholic in their hearts".

[a27mom]

When most people say they know "catholics that are christian", they will follow up with or mean that "they aren't really catholic in their hearts".

 

 

That is definitely not what I was saying. How awful and horrifying. I'm sorry if anyone took it that way I honestly never heard such a thing.

 

My neighborhood/school was about 75% "catholic". The majority of these kids /families did not attend mass regularly, and certainly had no personal understanding of the tenants of the Nicene creed. It was easier to be catholic than not and have a place where you could get married & buried (though a lot didn't get married there, I imagine they didn't want to attend classes).

 

Today I live in an area with the opposite percentage. The vast majority of Catholics I know well today are devout and I am certain (as one can be about another human being) that they are Christians. It's the Protestants that tend to not know what they supposedly believe, and have a church just for holidays and to be married and buried at.

 

I personally believe that there are a lot of so called "Christians" of all stripes, that really aren't Christians. Sounds like many of you have suffered at their hands. It is truly heartbreaking for you and them.

 

 

[Heidi]

Well, I would consider myself a pre-nicene creed Christian, aka LDS :)

[mommaduck]

That is definitely not what I was saying. How awful and horrifying. I'm sorry if anyone took it that way I honestly never heard such a thing.

 

My neighborhood/school was about 75% "catholic". The majority of these kids /families did not attend mass regularly, and certainly had no personal understanding of the tenants of the Nicene creed. It was easier to be catholic than not and have a place where you could get married & buried (though a lot didn't get married there, I imagine they didn't want to attend classes).

 

Today I live in an area with the opposite percentage. The vast majority of Catholics I know well today are devout and I am certain (as one can be about another human being) that they are Christians. It's the Protestants that tend to not know what they supposedly believe, and have a church just for holidays and to be married and buried at.

 

I personally believe that there are a lot of so called "Christians" of all stripes, that really aren't Christians. Sounds like many of you have suffered at their hands. It is truly heartbreaking for you and them.

No, I did eventually realise that you didn't mean it that way, but I wanted you to understand why so many of us react to that phrase. It's even been a problem here on this board. Threads popped up yearly titled, "Are Catholics Christians?" "Are Mormons Christians?" etc. Hot buttons, let me tell ya :)

[Parrothead]

I have met Catholics who are young earth and believe in the Authority of scripture, and to say Protestant would seem to be intentionally exclusive.

 

 

Pretty much every Catholic you'll meet believes in the authority of the Bible. We just don't believe in Sola Scriptura

[Parrothead]

We are predenominational ;)

i have to start using this more often. :coolgleamA:

[a27mom]

 

No, I did eventually realise that you didn't mean it that way, but I wanted you to understand why so many of us react to that phrase. It's even been a problem here on this board. Threads popped up yearly titled, "Are Catholics Christians?" "Are Mormons Christians?" etc. Hot buttons, let me tell ya :)

 

 

Yikes. Just not a thing to discuss anonymously, especially on a non statement of faith board. ;) No wonder people are touchy.

 

I do appreciate you seeking to understand and clarify it for me. I am a pretty analytical type, so not overly sensitive to feelings. I endeavor to do better, but I am also a bit oblivious, so really didn't realize that Catholics experienced so much antipathy from people who claim to be "Christians" I did realize there are a lot of radical pharasaical groups out there. But didn't realize that regular people had to interact with them so much. I am kind of in homeschooling heaven. Small area w/ 2 large universities, no state regulations. Lots of homeschoolers of a variety of stripes.

[mommaduck]

Yikes. Just not a thing to discuss anonymously, especially on a non statement of faith board. ;) No wonder people are touchy.

 

I do appreciate you seeking to understand and clarify it for me. I am a pretty analytical type, so not overly sensitive to feelings. I endeavor to do better, but I am also a bit oblivious, so really didn't realize that Catholics experienced so much antipathy from people who claim to be "Christians" I did realize there are a lot of radical pharasaical groups out there. But didn't realize that regular people had to interact with them so much. I am kind of in homeschooling heaven. Small area w/ 2 large universities, no state regulations. Lots of homeschoolers of a variety of stripes.

 

Okay, I have to ask where in IL you are? Because it could not have been anywhere around where I was (MetroEast of St. Louis).

[Wheres Toto]

Most evangelicals I know would be shocked to hear that Catholics would have an issue with that statement. I certainly didn't realize it prior to this thread. (I did know about the sola scriptura objection.). But I assumed it was considered literal and inerrant, as interpreted by the church of course.

 

 

In this case it means, among other things, young earth creationist.

[a27mom]

 

Okay, I have to ask where in IL you are? Because it could not have been anywhere around where I was (MetroEast of St. Louis).

 

 

No, not near St. Louis. i had a feeling you might have been in So. IL. i am near Bloomington/normal. You know in the cornfields where ISU is. ;).

 

We are involved in 4h and there are tons of homeschoolers. I once spoke at a homeschool 4h club that met at a Catholic Church, priest attended, I was asked to speak on my profession (PT) and how I incorporated my faith into my profession. (Was that legal in 4h lol?) They knew I wasn't catholic, I knew they mostly were. It was great. Sweet people. They gave me a gift certificate to our local Christian bookstore as an honorarium. Believe me I am not anti-catholic at all.

 

Our local park district, children's museum, nature center, community college, all have homeschool programs. There really isn't much need to join a group actually. Though there are plenty around.

 

Like I said homeschooling heaven. :)

[mommaduck]

No, not near St. Louis. i had a feeling you might have been in So. IL. i am near Bloomington/normal. You know in the cornfields where ISU is. ;).

 

We are involved in 4h and there are tons of homeschoolers. I once spoke at a homeschool 4h club that met at a Catholic Church, priest attended, I was asked to speak on my profession (PT) and how I incorporated my faith into my profession. (Was that legal in 4h lol?) They knew I wasn't catholic, I knew they mostly were. It was great. Sweet people. They gave me a gift certificate to our local Christian bookstore as an honorarium. Believe me I am not anti-catholic at all.

 

Our local park district, children's museum, nature center, community college, all have homeschool programs. There really isn't much need to join a group actually. Though there are plenty around.

 

Like I said homeschooling heaven. :)

 

You are blessed. Stay away from the MetroEast area ;) LOL!

[Alice]

When most people say they know "catholics that are christian", they will follow up with or mean that "they aren't really catholic in their hearts".

 

 

This is funny to me. My grandmother was Catholic and she would always tell me that she knew I was really Catholic in my heart. :) It’s not really pertinent to the discussion but it made me smile because it made me think of her.

[EMS83]

This has been fascinating to read. I'm not sure I have anything useful to add, but I appreciate everyone who's posted!

[mommymilkies]

 

I experienced the "only county and area homeschool group" being exclusive (at the time I fit the group, but I heard the comments and some were said to me about others) in Illinois...a no regulation state. I experienced the most inclusiveness in a high regulation state (Pennsylvania). South Carolina would be considered in between, but entirely different in requirements.

Yup. I've lived all over this state and this has been the standard unless you live near Chicago.

North Carolina wasn't too highly regulated, but a lot more openness (weird thinking about since it was a conservative and highly religious area!).

 

 

No, not near St. Louis. i had a feeling you might have been in So. IL. i am near Bloomington/normal. You know in the cornfields where ISU is. ;).

 

We are involved in 4h and there are tons of homeschoolers. I once spoke at a homeschool 4h club that met at a Catholic Church, priest attended, I was asked to speak on my profession (PT) and how I incorporated my faith into my profession. (Was that legal in 4h lol?) They knew I wasn't catholic, I knew they mostly were. It was great. Sweet people. They gave me a gift certificate to our local Christian bookstore as an honorarium. Believe me I am not anti-catholic at all.

 

Our local park district, children's museum, nature center, community college, all have homeschool programs. There really isn't much need to join a group actually. Though there are plenty around.

 

Like I said homeschooling heaven. :)

 

I have family there. Bloomington's opportunities are not like everywhere else, let me tell you! Lol. And where in Illinois isn't it corn country? Unless you speak of intermittent soybean fields. :D

 

Even when we lived in a much larger city in IL (2nd or 3rd??) we had problems finding a homeschool group. That was only 5 years ago, too. I am now in the only one I can find within an hour of here. We are rural but have many colleges. The colleges refuse flat out to work with homeschoolers to do dual credit and have refused to my face to allow anyone to teach a homeschool class or club anywhere on premises, even if we pay, or to have classes for kids-ps or hs. Because "they have a good relationship with the school district". No joke. The only group here is good. Some wonderfully nice people. But I completely disagree with the majority of their straight from AIG SoF. I didn't have to sign, but I am not allowed to teach any classes because of this, so I will be resigned to clean up duty and assisting for eternity, even though I have a college education. My toddler likes it that way, anyway. ;) when they taught the AIG creation class, my choice was to not let any of my kids be there (so 3 missed out on PE and art) until it was finished (no alternative for the kids) or make them sit through it and keep their mouths shut. We did the latter and honestly...it hurt their opinion of certain denominations. It was aggressive and not fun. Not just for my kids, but a few others, too, from what I heard. That's fine if they believe that, but I would prefer an academic or fun co-op if I had the choice.

 

I respect that they don't want anyone proselytizing to their kids about evolution or whatnot, but that leaves us with the choice of being one of two homeschooling families within an hour that I have found and never getting a co-OP experience. Not the end of the world, but we are rural and live in an...isolated community where the only way you ever get news, invited over, talked to, or generally acknowledged as living is if you were born and raised here. Pariahs, in other words.

 

I don't want to bash the group. My kids largely like it. But it is frustrating to know that I couldn't even talk to them about considering RCIA because the one time I mentioned something Catholic in nature, I was looked at like I had 3 heads and ate babies. I was used to that when I was raised Jewish, never expected it now, though!

[Coffeemama]

It is hard to find a group in SC. I considered signing and keeping my mouth shut so we could homeschool under option 3.

That stinks! But good to know, since my DH keeps hinting that he wants to move to SC.

 

We are currently very involved in a non-religious wonderful co-op. even though the group is non-religious, we have many strongly religious members and some non-religious families. It isn't an issue. We offer both academic and fun classes. All we need to do is read the class descriptions and ask the teacher if we need clarifications on anything. For example, there are a few parents that my DC have taken science classes from, but others that I would steer clear of, but they have taken a craft class from.

 

One thing that has been interesting for me, is experiencing being in the minority as a Catholic. We live in a Catholic area. Most of my non-homeschooling friends and neighbors are Catholic. But I am clearly in the minority among homeschoolers.

 

In full discloser, there is a Catholic homeschool group in my area (a bit further away) but since religion is not our primary motivator to homeschool, we prefer our current mix of terrific people.

[Kathryn]

Depends on where you live in SC. We are in a "Chrisitian" support group that we won't be able to sign the SOF for this year. But, we are also in a great inclusive support group that offers an accountability group as well. And I know of several co-ops that don't require any SOF, at least one of which is totally secular.

[AimeeM]

That stinks! But good to know, since my DH keeps hinting that he wants to move to SC.

 

We are currently very involved in a non-religious wonderful co-op. even though the group is non-religious, we have many strongly religious members and some non-religious families. It isn't an issue. We offer both academic and fun classes. All we need to do is read the class descriptions and ask the teacher if we need clarifications on anything. For example, there are a few parents that my DC have taken science classes from, but others that I would steer clear of, but they have taken a craft class from.

 

One thing that has been interesting for me, is experiencing being in the minority as a Catholic. We live in a Catholic area. Most of my non-homeschooling friends and neighbors are Catholic. But I am clearly in the minority among homeschoolers.

 

In full discloser, there is a Catholic homeschool group in my area (a bit further away) but since religion is not our primary motivator to homeschool, we prefer our current mix of terrific people.

 

Just an fyi - there is a third option group that, while Catholic, requires no statement faith and allows anyone to use them.

[Mrs Twain]

In this case it means, among other things, young earth creationist.

 

The Bible being inerrant and literal, and the young earth creationist view are not the same thing.

Some evangelical Christians who hold to the Bible being literal and inerrant are young earth.

Other evangelicals who hold the Bible to be literal and inerrant are old earth.

I have heard Bible scholars teach who are on opposite ends of this spectrum.

Just because homeschoolers may only hear about Ken Ham's view doesn't mean that Ken Ham's view is the only view.

Please don't equate all people who believe in the Bible as inerrant and literal are young earth!

[jillian]

Depends on where you live in SC. We are in a "Chrisitian" support group that we won't be able to sign the SOF for this year. But, we are also in a great inclusive support group that offers an accountability group as well. And I know of several co-ops that don't require any SOF, at least one of which is totally secular.

I'm in the lowcountry area, outside of charleston. I am fairly sure mommaduck is also.

[Mrs Twain]

I have been thinking about many of your comments lately about being excluded from "Christian" homeschool groups.

I am not a member of an homeschool group which requires anyone to sign anything, but perhaps I may try to explain some Christians' view of this issue.

 

Evangelical Christians (in general) believe the Bible to be literal and inerrant. (Whether they are young earth or old earth is a different issue.)

These people hold to the Bible as the sole authority, akin to the "sola Scriptura" idea from Martin Luther in the 1500's.

These people don't agree with others who say that they believe in the Bible, but...and then there is something added because they don't believe the Bible is entirely true on its own.

With Catholics, they say they believe in the Bible plus tradition.

With LDS, they believe in the Bible plus Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

With Muslims, they belive in the Bible plus Muhammad and the Qur'an.

 

Many people who start a Christian group would like to associate with others who think the same way as themselves. If they are starting a co-op, they would like the teachers to teach the same things that they hold to be true.

 

If Catholics or anyone else thinks this is wrong or unfair or lacking grace or anything else, then just think about the groups started by your own people. I have Catholic a neighbor who is involved with a Catholic homeschooling group, a Catholic small group from her church, and a Catholic high school. It is not wrong to start a group in order to associate with people who think they same way as you.

[mommaduck]

I'm in the lowcountry area, outside of charleston. I am fairly sure mommaduck is also.

I will be in a few days!!! Counting down! :D

[AimeeM]

I have been thinking about many of your comments lately about being excluded from "Christian" homeschool groups.

I am not a member of an homeschool group which requires anyone to sign anything, but perhaps I may try to explain some Christians' view of this issue.

 

Evangelical Christians (in general) believe the Bible to be literal and inerrant. (Whether they are young earth or old earth is a different issue.)

These people hold to the Bible as the sole authority, akin to the "sola Scriptura" idea from Martin Luther in the 1500's.

These people don't agree with others who say that they believe in the Bible, but...and then there is something added because they don't believe the Bible is entirely true on its own.

With Catholics, they say they believe in the Bible plus tradition.

With LDS, they believe in the Bible plus Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

With Muslims, they belive in the Bible plus Muhammad and the Qur'an.

 

Many people who start a Christian group would like to associate with others who think the same way as themselves. If they are starting a co-op, they would like the teachers to teach the same things that they hold to be true.

 

If Catholics or anyone else thinks this is wrong or unfair or lacking grace or anything else, then just think about the groups started by your own people. I have Catholic a neighbor who is involved with a Catholic homeschooling group, a Catholic small group from her church, and a Catholic high school. It is not wrong to start a group in order to associate with people who think they same way as you.

I have NO problem with those starting groups to be with like minded individuals. I would never say it is "wrong" of them. I will argue until I'm blue in the face that those starting the group should be more specific - don't claim a broad description like "christian" or state "all christians welcome"... and then throw in the SOF that obviously means to exclude many christian denominations. Call it like it is - an evangelical group, a reformed group, a protestant group, etc.

Also, the Catholic co-ops here make exceptions for non Catholics. Especially for those not accepted in other groups but too small a number to make their own group (like Orthodox or Anglican). The Catholic and Jewish school in the area are the only faith based schools in the area that welcome members of all faiths (regarding your last statement) and require no agreement to a SOF.

[mommaduck]

I have been thinking about many of your comments lately about being excluded from "Christian" homeschool groups.

I am not a member of an homeschool group which requires anyone to sign anything, but perhaps I may try to explain some Christians' view of this issue.

 

Evangelical Christians (in general) believe the Bible to be literal and inerrant. (Whether they are young earth or old earth is a different issue.)

These people hold to the Bible as the sole authority, akin to the "sola Scriptura" idea from Martin Luther in the 1500's.

These people don't agree with others who say that they believe in the Bible, but...and then there is something added because they don't believe the Bible is entirely true on its own.

With Catholics, they say they believe in the Bible plus tradition.

With LDS, they believe in the Bible plus Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

With Muslims, they belive in the Bible plus Muhammad and the Qur'an.

 

Many people who start a Christian group would like to associate with others who think the same way as themselves. If they are starting a co-op, they would like the teachers to teach the same things that they hold to be true.

 

We all know all of this already. None of this is a news flash of information ;) Many of us are converts from evangelical protestantism.

 

If Catholics or anyone else thinks this is wrong or unfair or lacking grace or anything else, then just think about the groups started by your own people. I have Catholic a neighbor who is involved with a Catholic homeschooling group, a Catholic small group from her church, and a Catholic high school. It is not wrong to start a group in order to associate with people who think they same way as you.

You either did not read the entire thread or were not paying attention. The problems with this has been addressed several times.

 

#1 if you are the ONLY family of your faith that is homeschooling, then you have no one else to start a group with (btw, that was the same snotty comment a former friend of mine in a "Christian co-op" in IL said to me about a non-Protestant family that she was trying to encourage to homeschool, but when asked to join the same group, was told she couldn't. Reminds me of white people saying that blacks and native americans should go do this and that with "their own people".

 

#2 if you are the only homeschool co-op or group in the area, and you are the one stated as the state recognised county group, then it would make sense to be open to ALL homeschoolers. If you are the above and place the name "Christian" on it, then be open to ALL Christians (aka, you don't get to claim and self define the term). If you are a Protestant only group, then please call yourself "County Protestant Homeschoolers", "County Evangelical Homeschoolers"...or if you really want to only associate with those that believe alike, then be honest and call yourself "Southern Baptist Homeschoolers of County", "Reformed Homeschoolers of County", etc. What is really ironic is that many of these groups will associate people that generally have nothing to do with one another (and speak badly of one another in their churches) aka Charismatics, Pentacostals, Reformed, and Independent Baptists...but Lord forbid that Liturgical Protestants join with other Liturgical Churches (RC and EO). There is the offense and ungraciousness. They straight out will say that Catholics are not Christians (and yes, there are MANY that believe that statement).

[mommaduck]

Yes, Catholic highschools are open to ALL people (Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Agnostics, Atheists, etc). It actually makes for an interesting conversation in religion class, where the tenents of the Catholic faith are taught, but a variety of faiths are discussed. The teacher loved that my son had a diverse background faithwise and was able to explain things about certain groups from experience and being catechised that even she had limited understanding of. They never tried to convert him either.

[Ellie]

Including the requirement to believe in a literal six-day creation is a very new addition to SOFs. I don't know why or how that got started. :blink: The first I heard of that being an issue was when Sonlight was uninvited to a state convention a few years ago.

[mommaduck]

Including the requirement to believe in a literal six-day creation is a very new addition to SOFs. I don't know why or how that got started. :blink: The first I heard of that being an issue was when Sonlight was uninvited to a state convention a few years ago.

 

Ken Ham started teaching that if you don't believe in a literal 24hr/6day creation then the rest of your Christian faith and belief in the Bible falls apart because you are then calling God a liar and can't trust the Scriptures. Therefore, you can't be a real Christian without believing what he teaches, exactly how he teaches it.

[Kathryn]

 

I'm in the lowcountry area, outside of charleston. I am fairly sure mommaduck is also.

 

 

I know :) I was replying to the person whose DH wanted to move to SC.

[Avila]

I have never liked the "stick to your own kind" mentality, or the implication that having people who don't share exact beliefs is somehow dangerous to faith or morals. I think what a homeschoooling group needs to have in common is ... Homeschooling. I will get my faith support from my church. I don't need to be around just like-minded individuals to not feel threatened.

 

These groups have a right, as private groups, to exclude anyone they want. They are a majority of homeschoolers in many areas and in most of the major conventions, as it stands. So when these groups are the biggest -- or only -- group in the area and they decide to exclude in this way, it can be a very lonely feeling to be left outside. Many of us would love to be able to go on field trips, participate in co-ops, and have park days without feeling like we have to agree to a whole belief system for that to happen. And it feels awfully smug to have people who can participate (whether or not they choose to) to tell me how I should feel about that or tell me to forget all the advantages of a large group and stick to my own kind so they can stick to theirs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JuanitaL]

Ken Ham started teaching that if you don't believe in a literal 24hr/6day creation then the rest of your Christian faith and belief in the Bible falls apart because you are then calling God a liar and can't trust the Scriptures. Therefore, you can't be a real Christian without believing what he teaches, exactly how he teaches it.

 

 

 

To me, this sounds like - you must believe the Bible and Ken Ham.

[Ellie]

Ken Ham started teaching that if you don't believe in a literal 24hr/6day creation then the rest of your Christian faith and belief in the Bible falls apart because you are then calling God a liar and can't trust the Scriptures. Therefore, you can't be a real Christian without believing what he teaches, exactly how he teaches it.

 

 

How glad I am that I was a Christian for many years before Ken Ham became The Expert. :rolleyes:

[Crimson Wife]

Many people who start a Christian group would like to associate with others who think the same way as themselves.

 

 

But why are certain theological controversies (the number of books in the Bible, the Solas, venerating Mary and the saints, etc.) given higher weight than others (hot-button social issues)? I find that I typically have a LOT more in common with conservative Protestants than I do with liberal Catholics. I can't think of the last time I got into a debate IRL about papal authority, but I have frequently gotten into debates about morality issues. Why are the SoF's specifically worded to exclude Catholics and EO's, but a-ok with liberal Protestants?

[JuanitaL]

ALL Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Mennonites, etc. are Christians. The Nicene Creed contains the basic tenets of Christianity, and all these denominations agree with the beliefs espoused in it. Now if someone does not agree with everything in the Nicene Creed, then most people would agree that he/she is not Christian. Any theological controversy beyond the Nicene Creed is a disagreement between different types of Christians, not between Christians and non-Christians.

 

 

An aside here - I've belonged to several Baptist churches across the country (AD military), and I'm pretty sure I would have gotten a lot of blank stares if I had ever mentioned the Nicene Creed.

[mommaduck]

An aside here - I've belonged to several Baptist churches across the country (AD military), and I'm pretty sure I would have gotten a lot of blank stares if I had ever mentioned the Nicene Creed.

 

Because most Baptists don't know what it is and don't know their church history. Pretty much, the Catholics existed, the Reformation happened, but they descend from John the Baptizer...

 

 

Please note that I know not ALL Baptists are like this. I was raised Baptist though, my husband was also, my FIL was a Baptist pastor.

[Crimson Wife]

An aside here - I've belonged to several Baptist churches across the country (AD military), and I'm pretty sure I would have gotten a lot of blank stares if I had ever mentioned the Nicene Creed.

 

 

Is there anything in Baptist doctrine/teaching, however, that goes against the Nicene Creed? I'm not super-familiar with the Baptist denomination, but from what I do know about it, I would be surprised if there is. Ignorance of the Creed does not imply disagreement with the beliefs espoused in it, KWIM? If I asked a group of Baptist theologians to give me a yes/no answer to a belief in the Trinity, Christ's death and resurrection atoning for our sins, and the rest of the Creed wouldn't they answer in the affirmative?

[Wheres Toto]

The Bible being inerrant and literal, and the young earth creationist view are not the same thing.

 

Please don't equate all people who believe in the Bible as inerrant and literal are young earth!

 

 

That's why I said "...in this case...."

 

Although when I asked for clarification, that is how it was explained to me. That believing in the LITERAL truth of the Bible meant believing that Genesis was not at all allegorical or symbolic but literal - a day was 24 hours, etc.

 

Ken Ham started teaching that if you don't believe in a literal 24hr/6day creation then the rest of your Christian faith and belief in the Bible falls apart because you are then calling God a liar and can't trust the Scriptures. Therefore, you can't be a real Christian without believing what he teaches, exactly how he teaches it.

 

 

Maybe that's where they got it from. The SOF was very similar, word for word, of ones I've seen people post here in the past. I was wondering if there was some group that posted a sample one for people to copy and use for their own organizations.

[mommaduck]

They would be gun shy about the phrase, "one holy, catholic, and apostolic church" for several reasons...regardless that it means universal (some would have problems with that as well).

[pfamilygal]

The two homeschool groups in my rather large city both require SOFs to join. Heck, even some of the PE co-ops here have an SOF. It is not limited to academic co-op classes.

 

They are Christian groups that many Christians cannot join because of the very narrowly defined definition. They emphasize certain differences as major and exclusive and other differences that, to me, are just as large as non-essential and inclusive.

 

If you started a Baptist Homeschool Group, I would completely understand that I am not your target audience, since I am not Baptist. However, I am a Christian, so I should have a reasonable expectation of being welcomed into a Christian Homeschool Group.

 

It is totally their right to limit their group any way they want to, but it definitely not welcoming or friendly to those on the outside.

 

 

 

Could you deal with SACC's? "We believe that the Bible is the Word of God and in the inerrancy of scripture. We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Christ crucified, buried and risen. We will always refer to the Bible as our foundational teaching tool."

 

 

I guess it does have that "inerrancy" part in it. But do the Catholics believe that the Bible is full of errors? I wouldn't take that to mean a literal 6 day creation. So say a document is without err doesn't mean our interpretation is without err. So you could have Genesis be true, but be talking in metaphor. Jesus told parables. I don't think there was a real prodigal son, but it doesn't mean the story's meaning isn't true, KWIM?

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you would NOT want to be part of that PE group. They are evil.

[Crimson Wife]

They would be gun shy about the phrase, "one holy, catholic, and apostolic church" for several reasons...regardless that it means universal (some would have problems with that as well).

 

 

I have seen Protestant versions of the Nicene Creed that substitute the phrase "one holy Christian church", but I do not personally consider that a substantial change in belief but rather a reflection of the ignorance of what small "c" catholic means :tongue_smilie:

[SarahW]

 

Is there anything in Baptist doctrine/teaching, however, that goes against the Nicene Creed? I'm not super-familiar with the Baptist denomination, but from what I do know about it, I would be surprised if there is. Ignorance of the Creed does not imply disagreement with the beliefs espoused in it, KWIM? If I asked a group of Baptist theologians to give me a yes/no answer to a belief in the Trinity, Christ's death and resurrection atoning for our sins, and the rest of the Creed wouldn't they answer in the affirmative?

 

 

Most Baptists would have a major problem with the line "I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins."

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I have been thinking about many of your comments lately about being excluded from "Christian" homeschool groups.

I am not a member of an homeschool group which requires anyone to sign anything, but perhaps I may try to explain some Christians' view of this issue.

 

Evangelical Christians (in general) believe the Bible to be literal and inerrant. (Whether they are young earth or old earth is a different issue.)

These people hold to the Bible as the sole authority, akin to the "sola Scriptura" idea from Martin Luther in the 1500's.

These people don't agree with others who say that they believe in the Bible, but...and then there is something added because they don't believe the Bible is entirely true on its own.

With Catholics, they say they believe in the Bible plus tradition.

With LDS, they believe in the Bible plus Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

With Muslims, they belive in the Bible plus Muhammad and the Qur'an.

 

Many people who start a Christian group would like to associate with others who think the same way as themselves. If they are starting a co-op, they would like the teachers to teach the same things that they hold to be true.

 

If Catholics or anyone else thinks this is wrong or unfair or lacking grace or anything else, then just think about the groups started by your own people. I have Catholic a neighbor who is involved with a Catholic homeschooling group, a Catholic small group from her church, and a Catholic high school. It is not wrong to start a group in order to associate with people who think they same way as you.

 

 

No it is not wrong to start a group to associate with people who think the same way technically but IMHO it is not very Christian to ask others to sign a statement of faith to participate. I see nothing wrong with a statement of expected rules to sign. I also see nothing wrong with having SOF as an FYI to prospective members, but not as a requirement to sign to join. I see nothing wrong with having a rule that says members must be respectful of the SOF of the co-op in that they will not try to convert members towards another way of thinking. One Christian co-op we attended, did not have a SOF but had a statement of expected rules/behaviors to sign. This co-op also handled the creation controversy by not discussing evolution and the age of the earth in classes. I can possibly see a co-op asking teachers to sign a statement of faith, but to me it really is not necessary when there are set guidelines and rules. Besides, must one bring religion into math or english or science? As for religion classes, the co-op we attended did not have them. As for catholic schools, every catholic school I attended had non-catholic students in attendance who did not have to sign SOF.

 

My 2 cents.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I have never liked the "stick to your own kind" mentality, or the implication that having people who don't share exact beliefs is somehow dangerous to faith or morals. I think what a homeschoooling group needs to have in common is ... Homeschooling. I will get my faith support from my church. I don't need to be around just like-minded individuals to not feel threatened.

 

These groups have a right, as private groups, to exclude anyone they want. They are a majority of homeschoolers in many areas and in most of the major conventions, as it stands. So when these groups are the biggest -- or only -- group in the area and they decide to exclude in this way, it can be a very lonely feeling to be left outside. Many of us would love to be able to go on field trips, participate in co-ops, and have park days without feeling like we have to agree to a whole belief system for that to happen. And it feels awfully smug to have people who can participate (whether or not they choose to) to tell me how I should feel about that or tell me to forget all the advantages of a large group and stick to my own kind so they can stick to theirs.

 

I agree. This especially hurts since homeschooling is not quite mainstream yet and often such groups are the only thing in town. Plus, you know, Jesus hung out with the sinners.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

 

 

Could you deal with SACC's? "We believe that the Bible is the Word of God and in the inerrancy of scripture. We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Christ crucified, buried and risen. We will always refer to the Bible as our foundational teaching tool."

 

 

I guess it does have that "inerrancy" part in it. But do the Catholics believe that the Bible is full of errors? I wouldn't take that to mean a literal 6 day creation. So say a document is without err doesn't mean our interpretation is without err. So you could have Genesis be true, but be talking in metaphor. Jesus told parables. I don't think there was a real prodigal son, but it doesn't mean the story's meaning isn't true, KWIM?

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you would NOT want to be part of that PE group. They are evil.

 

Can't comment from the Catholic perspective but I think different people mean different things when they read or write "inerrant". Some mean that it is true, even if some is metaphor. Others mean that every word is literal. Six days is six 24 hour days. What I struggle with sometimes is figuring out which is which.

 

(I am always amused by folks who insist that six days cannot be anything but six 24 hour days but wine in the upper room was really grape juice.)

 

I don't think the Bible is in error but I do sometimes question men's understanding of it.

[LizzyBee]

I will tell you my issue. The SOFs are written to emphasize the differences specifically between protestants and Catholics. I have yet to see one specifically trying to exclude oh, for example, Methodists. They are making a statement that they are a Christian group and their beliefs are what qualifies someone as a Christian. And they are quite specific in which groups do or do not qualify.

 

Is it really necessary to agree on these very specific things to have a park day? A field trip? Or have they basically just decided that the only people they want to associate with must believe exactly what they do -- but only on the specific points that exclude Catholics, EO, Mormons? The things that they don't agree with each other about (baptism, end times, free will, etc.) are called non-essential, and those people are welcomed into the group. The SOF makes a clear and deliberate distinction on that.

 

It's funny that you mentioned Methodists, because I have a friend who is Methodist that decided she couldn't join our homeschool group because the SOF is too conservative. However, I know that we have at least one Catholic family.

 

My group didn't have a SOF when it first started, but it was added before I joined, so I'm not sure what the rationale was. I believe there was some kind of controversy or attempted "takeover" that led to the SOF. Anyone is welcome to the parents meeting - members, non-members, any faith or no faith. But to be a member and participate in other activities, signing the SOF is necessary. We sometimes have classes and academic groups, so that's a large part of why a lot of families want a SOF. It's not just play dates and field trips. Personally, though, I like the idea of saying, "This is what we believe. You don't have to believe it, but if you choose to participate, you have to respect it and may not teach anything to the contrary."

 

On the flip side, I used to belong to an inclusive group that met for park days. The kids played and the moms chatted. As it turns out, inclusive was code for mean-spirited, anti-Christian, anti-academic. We didn't last long in that group.

[JuanitaL]

 

Is there anything in Baptist doctrine/teaching, however, that goes against the Nicene Creed? I'm not super-familiar with the Baptist denomination, but from what I do know about it, I would be surprised if there is. Ignorance of the Creed does not imply disagreement with the beliefs espoused in it, KWIM? If I asked a group of Baptist theologians to give me a yes/no answer to a belief in the Trinity, Christ's death and resurrection atoning for our sins, and the rest of the Creed wouldn't they answer in the affirmative?

Oh no, I'm wasn't trying to imply they would disagree with it. Ignorant - yes. I guess I find it ...sad.... lazy...something ... that we Baptists have "strong. doctrinal. beliefs." (imagine that in a thundering voice with a fist hammered on a pulpit) and yet we have no idea from whence they came. I suspect, that if given the words to the NC there would be some recognition - as the Third Day song. I also suspect that a lot of people would have problems with the word "catholic" - (and seeing that there are 2 creeds, I reveal my own ignorance and admit I'm not sure which one we're discussing in this thread).

[JuanitaL]

They would be gun shy about the phrase, "one holy, catholic, and apostolic church" for several reasons...regardless that it means universal (some would have problems with that as well).

 

I'm way too slow. I was also thinking of this.

[JuanitaL]

Because most Baptists don't know what it is and don't know their church history. Pretty much, the Catholics existed, the Reformation happened, but they descend from John the Baptizer...

 

 

Please note that I know not ALL Baptists are like this. I was raised Baptist though, my husband was also, my FIL was a Baptist pastor.

 

 

Yes, I completely agree.

[JuanitaL]

 

Most Baptists would have a major problem with the line "I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins."

 

Why? (real question, I'm sitting here reading it and wondering if I have a problem with it - and I can't think of anything..what am I missing?..)

[UrbanSue]

Depends on where you live in SC. We are in a "Chrisitian" support group that we won't be able to sign the SOF for this year. But, we are also in a great inclusive support group that offers an accountability group as well. And I know of several co-ops that don't require any SOF, at least one of which is totally secular.

 

 

 

I was once presented with a statement of faith where I simply drew a line through the two words I couldn't agree with, signed it and handed it in. They were fine with that. If the group is valuable to you and isn't harming your faith, you might see if they would go for that. There are all kinds of groups out there and, as has been pointed out, the SOFs aren't always trying to weed out RCs and EOs--sometimes it's clueless boiler plate.