s/o - Statements of Faith & Catholics

[Kathleen in LV]

In another thread concerning feeling excluded, several Catholic homeschoolers mentioned having issues signing Statements of Faith for non-denominational Christian groups. I'm Catholic, and I'm part of a non-denominational group that I really enjoy. When I signed a Statement of Faith, I didn't see anything that concerned me.

 

I'm curious to know what Catholics have seen in Statements of Faith that have caused them to not want to sign them, if anybody is willing to share.

 

Thanks,

Kathleen

[Mrs Twain]

I am not Catholic, but I have many Catholic friends.

 

In my experience, one of the greatest issues of difference occurs when talking about authority. Non-denominational Christian groups (in general) assert that the Bible is the highest authority. According to Catholic doctrine, even though the Bible is regarded as an authority, church tradition is considered the highest authority.

 

There may be other issues, but I have not encountered any others which cause greater conflict than the one above.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Possible things:

Inherency of the Bible (having to believe every single word as is, implying Young Earth Creationism)

Number of books in the Bible

No greater authority than the Bible.

[Parrothead]

I am not Catholic, but I have many Catholic friends.

 

In my experience, one of the greatest issues of difference occurs when talking about authority. Non-denominational Christian groups (in general) assert that the Bible is the highest authority. According to Catholic doctrine, even though the Bible is regarded as an authority, church tradition is considered the highest authority.

 

There may be other issues, but I have not encountered any others which cause greater conflict than the one above.

 

 

Close.

 

Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition form one sacred deposit of the Word of God which is committed to the Church. The task of authentically interpreting the Word of God, whether written or handed on in tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the Word of God but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on with the help of the Holy Spirit: it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

 

So, no. Tradition does not trump the Bible. The Bible and Tradition go hand in hand.

[Pod's mum]

I had to sign one for a Christian Cover School (where we are in Aust. our kids need to be enrolled at a school to get exemption to not attend ?!?).

I just said that as a Catholics, I would presume we do try to keep Christian standards and I would also presume that they would not ask us to go against our stated beliefs. It put the onus back on them, I wrote something similiar and signed.

This was fine.

[Parrothead]

Kathleen, it really is going to depend on the statement. Some are very basic and simply agree that everyone within the group identifies as Christian. Others (the ones most of of see) are worded to weed out Catholics, LDS, JW, some mainstream Protestants, and all non-Christians.

 

If you were comfortable signing your group's statement, don't worry unless you are finding that you are losing your faith while attending the group's events.

[Kathleen in LV]

Thank you for the replies. I wasn't so concerned about the one I signed -- I figured that different groups have a variety of different provisions in their statements. I was just curious about the types of things one might find problematic. I thought it interesting that a Statement of Faith might actually reference a specific number of books in the bible. But I guess if a group is trying to weed out certain denominations, such provisions might make sense.

[mommaduck]

For us, Scripture is part of Tradition and it, alone, is not the only and final authority. Especially if one is picking and choosing which book to keep in it and which to reject.

[Mrs Twain]

Close.

 

Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition form one sacred deposit of the Word of God which is committed to the Church. The task of authentically interpreting the Word of God, whether written or handed on in tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the Word of God but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on with the help of the Holy Spirit: it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

 

So, no. Tradition does not trump the Bible. The Bible and Tradition go hand in hand.

 

 

I understand what you are saying.

 

From the Protestant perspective, for reasons I will not go into, it appears that Catholics elevate Tradition above the Bible in practice.

 

I understand that the official doctrine and also many Catholics' perspectives is that the Bible and Tradition is a unity (though I don't know exactly how one is to phrase that idea). Even this statement is heretical to a Protestant. In the 1500's Martin Luther summed it up the Protestant view as "sola Scriptura".

 

Please note that I am not trying to argue or cause strife. I am merely trying to explain the central conflict according to my experience having many Catholic family members and friends, per the OP's original post inviting anyone to share. However, this already sounds contentious, doesn't it? That is why I say this issue is the core of all of the conflict in my experience. I have not thoroughly studied it, but perhaps this issue is the root of all conflict between these two groups.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Here's a statement that would turn me away:

http://www.lamppostp...mentoffaith.htm

And just for that first entry, about the Bible. First, the 66 books, then 'without error' - which could be debated, and "the divine and final authority for all Christian faith and life." would be the final blow.

 

 

Here's another one:

http://thesouthernbaptistacademy.org/statementoffaith.php

It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy

 

 

Btw, I know nothing of these organisations. I'm letting DuckDuckGo (my new Google) find them for me. I just did a search on 'homeschool statement of faith" and these two came up.

[mommaduck]

From the LCHEA website, their SOF (thank you CarolinaHomeschooler):

 

We believe the Bible to the inspired, the only, infalliable, authoritative Word of God.

RC and EO do not believe this statement in it's entirety. Inspired, yes. Authoritative, yes, but only in conjunction with proper context and interpretation...who is deciding what that is? We have an answer for that and it means that "only" does not work. Infalliable? That is up for debate and depends upon proper translation, proper interpretation, and rejects the possibility of human error (interesting when you find out what early Bibles say compared to modern and what they say when you've learned the actual Greek...I've seen entire verses taken out and replaced with an entirely different subject).

 

We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential and that this salvation is received through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and not as a result of good works.

RC and EO do not separate sanctification from justification as Protestants do (and Anabaptists divide it even more). They are part of a whole and work in tandem. It is not a one time event, but a lifelong journey. Yes, works are part of it. And honestly, even "making a decision" is a work, unless one is an extreme form of hyper Calvinist.

 

Some SOF's will even go so far as to specifying the Rapture (something that the EO do not believe in...and I don't believe the RC do either). Some will include statements about Believer's Baptism, which cuts out a large group of Protestants as well as RC and EO. One group (Cathedral Life, I believe) stresses the "father's role in homeschooling", which leaves out those that are widowed, divorced, single, or have husbands that are deployed or travel for a living. Some will also state "66 books", which leaves out books that were included up to the KJV 1611 (and I believe it was included in the original KJV 1611, but removed some years later, first with blank pages where those books would have been, so they were still noted as having been part of).

[mommaduck]

I understand what you are saying.

 

From the Protestant perspective, for reasons I will not go into, it appears that Catholics elevate Tradition above the Bible in practice.

 

 

Wrong. The Bible didn't drop out of the sky ;) Scripture is PART of Tradition. It was put together by a council based upon what was known through Tradition.

[a27mom]

It concerns me that such statements of faith are viewed as attempts to "weed" out Catholics and other religions.

 

Why are they not viewed as statement of faiths and critical truths that are extremely important to members of the group?

 

If I were convicted to homeschool for religious reasons and attended a coop where others were teaching my children with a religious perspective, then I would expect such a statement of faith to be signed. If i sent my child to private Christian school i would expect a similar statement. Our Sunday school teachers at church are required to sign something similar (although it didn't occur to us to say 66 books or anything)

 

It have been in groups with Catholics who were Christians and they didn't seem to object to those statements. hmmm.....

 

I would guess you could say that my doctrinal beliefs follow a non-denominational, anabaptist perspective. I would like to note that non-denominational does not mean inter-denominational. So if you are denominational, someone who is non-denominational would have doctrinal differences.

 

If a group of catholic families started a homeschool group and had a SofF that said "we hold sacred the authority of the pope and sacraments of the Catholic Church". I wouldn't be able to sign your SoF, but I wouldn't think that you were trying to weed me out or exclude me.

 

It really saddens me that so many people are hurt by statements of faith. It breaks my heart. I am sure that there are those out there, that use them in mean and nasty ways. But I also know that there are many out there that simply wish to immerse their children in what they believe is Biblical truth through academic subjects. Wouldn't you rather they be honest and clear about their purpose and intentions upfront so you can find a group where you do fit?

 

BTW I would not likely join a homeschool group with a SoF because that is not my educational philosophy or purpose.

[Alice]

I like the way that our co-op handles this. There is a statement of faith that spells out what the church that we meet at believes. You are required to read it and you are asked not to teach anything that is directly opposed to that statement. But you aren’t asked or required to sign the statement agreeing with it. There are many points that I disagree with and I couldn’t have signed off on but nothing that I felt like would keep us from wanting to be a member of the group. For example, the church has something about being young-earth in their statement. I believe in evolution, so I’ll never teach a basic science class there. I do teach an Anatomy class because evolution just doesn’t come up in the class.

 

The church provides a great service in allowing our co-op to meet in their facility so I feel like they have the right to ask people to not come in and teach something contrary to their beliefs but I like that not having everyone sign does give a bit more diversity of belief. We have many Catholic families and Protestants of many denominations.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I see only one reason for having people sign a statement of faith, and it is to weed out those who do not share the same faith. Honestly, I see no other reason.

Now a group may have a SoF out, and still have anyone join, because no individual signature is required. For example, my Catholic school is definitely Catholic, but the people who sign up their kids don't need to sign anything other than a cheque. And Muslims, Jews, Hindus all attend this Catholic school.

I've seen homeschool co-op re-write their SoF because they hadn't realised that some other Christians faiths have more than 66 books. They were surprised and happy to oblige by scratching it out.

 

But others will simply not let anyone participate without signing that SoF. The reason for that SoF is to avoid people of a different faith/viewpoint to join. I honestly see no other reason.

[AimeeM]

I've never said that I disagree with statements of faith. On that note, yes many of them DO weed our Catholics and other denominations (like EO).

I have no problem with groups wanting their beliefs to take center stage, nor do I mind them wanting to make sure that others in the group subscribe to those beliefs.

What does get me? The groups that broadly categorize themselves as simply "Christian" or "all Christian faiths welcome!"... but then there is a SOF presented that does specifically weed out (intentional or not) several Christian denominations. Just call it like it is - a protestant (or otherwise) group; that's okay to do, really. Lol.

 

I just have to say this too (even if it does bite me in the butt). I've only ever seen protestant brick and mortar schools with a SOF. Never have I seen a Catholic school require one. In fact, they are clear that they welcome children from all religions (Catholic faith will be taught, but all faiths are welcome in the school).

It concerns me that such statements of faith are viewed as attempts to "weed" out Catholics and other religions.

 

Why are they not viewed as statement of faiths and critical truths that are extremely important to members of the group?

 

If I were convicted to homeschool for religious reasons and attended a coop where others were teaching my children with a religious perspective, then I would expect such a statement of faith to be signed. If i sent my child to private Christian school i would expect a similar statement. Our Sunday school teachers at church are required to sign something similar (although it didn't occur to us to say 66 books or anything)

 

It have been in groups with Catholics who were Christians and they didn't seem to object to those statements. hmmm.....

 

I would guess you could say that my doctrinal beliefs follow a non-denominational, anabaptist perspective. I would like to note that non-denominational does not mean inter-denominational. So if you are denominational, someone who is non-denominational would have doctrinal differences.

 

If a group of catholic families started a homeschool group and had a SofF that said "we hold sacred the authority of the pope and sacraments of the Catholic Church". I wouldn't be able to sign your SoF, but I wouldn't think that you were trying to weed me out or exclude me.

 

It really saddens me that so many people are hurt by statements of faith. It breaks my heart. I am sure that there are those out there, that use them in mean and nasty ways. But I also know that there are many out there that simply wish to immerse their children in what they believe is Biblical truth through academic subjects. Wouldn't you rather they be honest and clear about their purpose and intentions upfront so you can find a group where you do fit?

 

BTW I would not likely join a homeschool group with a SoF because that is not my educational philosophy or purpose.

 

[Parrothead]

I understand what you are saying.

 

From the Protestant perspective, for reasons I will not go into, it appears that Catholics elevate Tradition above the Bible in practice.

 

I understand that the official doctrine and also many Catholics' perspectives is that the Bible and Tradition is a unity (though I don't know exactly how one is to phrase that idea). Even this statement is heretical to a Protestant. In the 1500's Martin Luther summed it up the Protestant view as "sola Scriptura".

 

Please note that I am not trying to argue or cause strife. I am merely trying to explain the central conflict according to my experience having many Catholic family members and friends, per the OP's original post inviting anyone to share. However, this already sounds contentious, doesn't it? That is why I say this issue is the core of all of the conflict in my experience. I have not thoroughly studied it, but perhaps this issue is the root of all conflict between these two groups.

 

 

No, I don't think you sound contentious at all. I was merely stating that your statement that Catholics hold Tradition to be the highest authority is incorrect. We do not hold Tradition to be the highest authority. We simply don't.

[Parrothead]

 

 

It have been in groups with Catholics who were Christians and they didn't seem to object to those statements. hmmm.....

 

 

 

 

:confused1:

[Crimson Wife]

The SoF for our local "non-denominational Christian" group is something I could sign if they removed a single word ("only"). I do accept Scripture as authority, just not the sole authority. Sola Scriptura isn't in the Bible, as much as certain Protestant reformers tried to have the offending epistle removed from the canon.

 

The ironic thing is that my mom, the very socially liberal Episcopalian, could sign the SoF, evn though she disagrees on most "hot button" issues with conservative Protestants. In the grand scheme of things, which is likely to cause discord- disagreements about the number of books in the Bible, or about social issues like abortion and homos*xuality?

[AimeeM]

:confused1:

Uh oh. Lol.

[Parrothead]

Uh oh. Lol.

No,uh-oh. Just confusion.

 

Is it the old stand-by that Catholics aren't really Christians or that some people who profess Christianity really aren't.

 

I shake my head and wonder if people ever read a history book when confronted with the first.

[AimeeM]

No,uh-oh. Just confusion.

 

Is it the old stand-by that Catholics aren't really Christians or that some people who profess Christianity really aren't.

 

I shake my head and wonder if people ever read a history book when confronted with the first.

The first is what I immediately though... but I'm jaded because I do live in an area where most do not consider Catholics to be Christians.

[Avila]

I will tell you my issue. The SOFs are written to emphasize the differences specifically between protestants and Catholics. I have yet to see one specifically trying to exclude oh, for example, Methodists. They are making a statement that they are a Christian group and their beliefs are what qualifies someone as a Christian. And they are quite specific in which groups do or do not qualify.

 

Is it really necessary to agree on these very specific things to have a park day? A field trip? Or have they basically just decided that the only people they want to associate with must believe exactly what they do -- but only on the specific points that exclude Catholics, EO, Mormons? The things that they don't agree with each other about (baptism, end times, free will, etc.) are called non-essential, and those people are welcomed into the group. The SOF makes a clear and deliberate distinction on that.

[a27mom]

I've never said that I disagree with statements of faith. On that note, yes many of them DO weed our Catholics and other denominations (like EO).

I have no problem with groups wanting their beliefs to take center stage, nor do I mind them wanting to make sure that others in the group subscribe to those beliefs.

What does get me? The groups that broadly categorize themselves as simply "Christian" or "all Christian faiths welcome!"... but then there is a SOF presented that does specifically weed out (intentional or not) several Christian denominations. Just call it like it is - a protestant (or otherwise) group; that's okay to do, really. Lol.

 

I just have to say this too (even if it does bite me in the butt). I've only ever seen protestant brick and mortar schools with a SOF. Never have I seen a Catholic school require one. In fact, they are clear that they welcome children from all religions (Catholic faith will be taught, but all faiths are welcome in the school).

 

 

Personally I would prefer Christian homeschool groups didn't exist period. I am all for homeschool groups made up of Christians, but I believe Christians are to be involved with all the wider world and not insular. I want to teach my children how to be discerning and deal with different viewpoints from a young age. However I have many friends who are kind loving people who disagree with me and I hate to think that people think they are being mean by wanting to only allow very specific influences in their lives.

 

At far as calling something a Protestant group. FWIW I would never call myself a protestant, and I don't think many people self identify as "Protestant". I certainly would never join any type of group that declared they were Protestant and in the title. I may use Protestant as an adjective to describe a specific church, but not a person. I don't know if this makes sense. I have met Catholics who are young earth and believe in the Authority of scripture, and to say Protestant would seem to be intentionally exclusive.

 

As for what such a group should call themselves it is tricky. I am assuming that most of these groups believe that Christian is a personal rather than corporate term. For many whether or not you are a Christian is not based on church membership or lack thereof. I think the default is to say we are Christians and this is our SoF. I do agree that to say "all Christian faiths welcome" may be misleading.

 

It is also a major paradigm shift for me. I don't necessarily agree with my pastor on all points of Bible interpretation, so the idea that someone who is catholic would be unable to sign such a SoF simply based on being catholic is hard to wrap my head around.

 

And I do want to clarify, I grew up in an area that was majority Catholic. I then lived for a few years in California w/ a little bit of everything from everywhere. I now live in an midwestern area with a fairly broad mix. I have never lived down south where I understand the dynamics are quite different, so there may be a lot of blatant bias I do not see.

 

( oh and BTW when I was referring to a private Christian school I meant i would assume a SoF would be required of the teachers not the attenders)

[Ellie]

It concerns me that such statements of faith are viewed as attempts to "weed" out Catholics and other religions.

 

Why are they not viewed as statement of faiths and critical truths that are extremely important to members of the group?

 

 

 

 

Because yes, they are specifically designed to keep out Catholics and other groups such as LDS, Christian Science, and so on.

 

Some may include verbage along the lines of "This is what our group believes but we welcome all homeschoolers who respect these beliefs," but generally, if people are *required* to sign it, then yes, the purpose is to keep out those Catholics et al.

[Ellie]

I will tell you my issue. The SOFs are written to emphasize the differences specifically between protestants and Catholics. I have yet to see one specifically trying to exclude oh, for example, Methodists. They are making a statement that they are a Christian group and their beliefs are what qualifies someone as a Christian. And they are quite specific in which groups do or do not qualify.

 

Is it really necessary to agree on these very specific things to have a park day? A field trip? Or have they basically just decided that the only people they want to associate with must believe exactly what they do -- but only on the specific points that exclude Catholics, EO, Mormons? The things that they don't agree with each other about (baptism, end times, free will, etc.) are called non-essential, and those people are welcomed into the group. The SOF makes a clear and deliberate distinction on that.

 

 

:iagree:

[AimeeM]

I will tell you my issue. The SOFs are written to emphasize the differences specifically between protestants and Catholics. I have yet to see one specifically trying to exclude oh, for example, Methodists. They are making a statement that they are a Christian group and their beliefs are what qualifies someone as a Christian. And they are quite specific in which groups do or do not qualify.

 

Is it really necessary to agree on these very specific things to have a park day? A field trip? Or have they basically just decided that the only people they want to associate with must believe exactly what they do -- but only on the specific points that exclude Catholics, EO, Mormons? The things that they don't agree with each other about (baptism, end times, free will, etc.) are called non-essential, and those people are welcomed into the group. The SOF makes a clear and deliberate distinction on that.

 

The co-ops I've seen with specific SOFs are ones that hold academic classes... that emphasize their faith. I do understand why they have them, in those cases.

[a27mom]

 

The first is what I immediately though... but I'm jaded because I do live in an area where most do not consider Catholics to be Christians.

 

 

To clarify, I know Catholics who are Christians, baptists who are Christians, Lutherans who are Christians, Mennonites who are Christians etc... I don't believe you are any less or more likely to be a Christian if you are catholic than if you are baptist etc....I was speaking of Christianity as a personal choice not a cultural identity.

 

I grew up in an area that was majority catholic. The only people who taught me that some Catholics are not Christians by personal choice were people who identified as Catholics themselves. Just as the people who taught me that many Catholics are Christians by personal choice are Catholic as well.

[mommaduck]

My responses in red.

 

It concerns me that such statements of faith are viewed as attempts to "weed" out Catholics and other religions.

 

Why are they not viewed as statement of faiths and critical truths that are extremely important to members of the group?

 

Some of us have been in those groups and have been directly informed or have had friends in those groups that have informed us that it is specifically to keep out Catholics, LDS, and JW's so that people from these groups don't "corrupt" their children.

 

If I were convicted to homeschool for religious reasons and attended a coop where others were teaching my children with a religious perspective, then I would expect such a statement of faith to be signed. If i sent my child to private Christian school i would expect a similar statement. Our Sunday school teachers at church are required to sign something similar (although it didn't occur to us to say 66 books or anything)

 

Religiously based co-ops, sure. But when the ONLY homeschool organization in the area is one with a statement of faith like this, particularly when it has a geographical name such as "Name of County Christian Home Educators" those that don't fit the narrow paradigm, would expect to be included based upon living in the county, being a home educator, and considering themselves Christian based on their own terms, not based upon a set of doctrine decided by the group. When you are the ONLY LDS homeschooler in the area and the homeschool group says "convert or form your own group"...yes, what gracious Christian behaviour.

 

It have been in groups with Catholics who were Christians and they didn't seem to object to those statements. hmmm.....

 

You have just had to throw that little phrase in there, didn't you? Catholics ARE Christians, tyvm! They may not be YOUR TYPE of Christian, but they are Christians and have existed before the thousands of sects that have spun out of them and out of each other. Let me say it one more time, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox ARE CHRISTIANS. We have been for over 2000 years. Individually, we are Christians and to judge another one way or another is to kick God off of His Throne and declare yourself judge over the souls of others.

 

Those Catholics that "didn't seem to object" probably either decided to just keep their mouths shut and play along or they simply are not very well catechised in their particular parishes or they just don't care.

 

I would guess you could say that my doctrinal beliefs follow a non-denominational, anabaptist perspective. I would like to note that non-denominational does not mean inter-denominational. So if you are denominational, someone who is non-denominational would have doctrinal differences.

 

We are predenominational ;)

 

If a group of catholic families started a homeschool group and had a SofF that said "we hold sacred the authority of the pope and sacraments of the Catholic Church". I wouldn't be able to sign your SoF, but I wouldn't think that you were trying to weed me out or exclude me.

 

We generally form out of necessity from having been excluded from the local groups. It's more defense than offense. And Catholic groups generally accept Orthodox homeschoolers as well, for the same commonalities that have kept them out of the local groups.

 

It really saddens me that so many people are hurt by statements of faith. It breaks my heart. I am sure that there are those out there, that use them in mean and nasty ways. But I also know that there are many out there that simply wish to immerse their children in what they believe is Biblical truth through academic subjects. Wouldn't you rather they be honest and clear about their purpose and intentions upfront so you can find a group where you do fit?

 

Yep, it definitely makes clear who doesn't want us around and what type of people they are. So much for being evangelical and reaching out to others ;) Unlike the local Catholic high schools that are open to everyone of every faith. Unfortunately, they aren't doing much for the cause of homeschooling when they try to infiltrate all the conventions, the geographical groups, etc and lay claim as though homeschooling only belongs to their type of faith. "oh, you should homeschool! But you can't can joint the county homeschool group (and the only homeschool group in the area) because you don't believe like we do..."

 

BTW I would not likely join a homeschool group with a SoF because that is not my educational philosophy or purpose.

 

I don't know what the other replies have been as I got distracted by company while typing this.

[Avila]

The two homeschool groups in my rather large city both require SOFs to join. Heck, even some of the PE co-ops here have an SOF. It is not limited to academic co-op classes.

 

They are Christian groups that many Christians cannot join because of the very narrowly defined definition. They emphasize certain differences as major and exclusive and other differences that, to me, are just as large as non-essential and inclusive.

 

If you started a Baptist Homeschool Group, I would completely understand that I am not your target audience, since I am not Baptist. However, I am a Christian, so I should have a reasonable expectation of being welcomed into a Christian Homeschool Group.

 

It is totally their right to limit their group any way they want to, but it definitely not welcoming or friendly to those on the outside.

[Ellie]

The co-ops I've seen with specific SOFs are ones that hold academic classes... that emphasize their faith. I do understand why they have them, in those cases.

 

 

But if people who don't believe in those specific doctrinal issues actually read course descriptions, they wouldn't be interested anyway, right? And would it be necessary to require people to actually sign the SOF? Couldn't the SOF be one that says "We believe these things; you are welcome to participate in our classes as long as you respect these views"?

 

Also, support groups have been requiring signed SOF, long before co-ops became a big deal. And things like sports days...do people whose children play kickball really need to sign a SOF? Really?

[Crimson Wife]

 

At far as calling something a Protestant group. FWIW I would never call myself a protestant, and I don't think many people self identify as "Protestant". I certainly would never join any type of group that declared they were Protestant and in the title. I may use Protestant as an adjective to describe a specific church, but not a person.

 

 

If you are a Christian, and not a member of the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches, then by definition you are a Protestant (leaving aside the whole controversy over the LDS church for simplicity's sake). You may be a non-denominational Protestant, but you are still one.

[mommaduck]

Try finding an option three group in South Carolina. Half of them I marked off the list based on the SoF. What if there wasn't any other group? Then I would not have been able to homeschool under option three. So much for the advancement of homeschooling freedom, right? Some of us would like to see more of a variety of speakers at conventions. Nope, anyone that isn't a fundamentalist, fear the government's every move, and homeschool for only religious reason type of person will not find anything of worth at the conventions or gets run off from speaking at conventions or cut down by other speakers at conventions. Yep, we've seen it happen!

[a27mom]

. And things like sports days...do people whose children play kickball really need to sign a SOF? Really?

 

 

I agree that is ridiculous.

[a27mom]

Try finding an option three group in South Carolina. Half of them I marked off the list based on the SoF. What if there wasn't any other group? Then I would not have been able to homeschool under option three. So much for the advancement of homeschooling freedom, right? Some of us would like to see more of a variety of speakers at conventions. Nope, anyone that isn't a fundamentalist, fear the government's every move, and homeschool for only religious reason type of person will not find anything of worth at the conventions or gets run off from speaking at conventions or cut down by other speakers at conventions. Yep, we've seen it happen!

 

 

That does suck. I am in a low regulation state, so I had not thought of this issue.

 

Oh and I avoid homeschooling conventions as well. But am blessed with a large homeschooling community that embraces a wide variety of curriculum. And I really don't have any experience with the dynamics of the south.

 

I am really sorry.

[AimeeM]

 

But if people who don't believe in those specific doctrinal issues actually read course descriptions, they wouldn't be interested anyway, right? And would it be necessary to require people to actually sign the SOF? Couldn't the SOF be one that says "We believe these things; you are welcome to participate in our classes as long as you respect these views"?

 

Also, support groups have been requiring signed SOF, long before co-ops became a big deal. And things like sports days...do people whose children play kickball really need to sign a SOF? Really?

 

I don't disagree with you at all. Lol.

The only thing I *can* think of is that most of the co-ops are taught by group members/volunteers; a group with a young earth emphasis may not want to risk someone with an old earth belief teaching their children? I'm not sure.

And you're right, I have read descriptions and decided they weren't a good fit. Even within our local Catholic co-op, we opted out of the science classes because they use decidedly young earth based (and saturated) texts and my husband vetoed the idea.

[Crimson Wife]

 

 

To clarify, I know Catholics who are Christians, baptists who are Christians, Lutherans who are Christians, Mennonites who are Christians etc... I don't believe you are any less or more likely to be a Christian if you are catholic than if you are baptist etc....I was speaking of Christianity as a personal choice not a cultural choice.

 

 

ALL Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Mennonites, etc. are Christians. The Nicene Creed contains the basic tenets of Christianity, and all these denominations agree with the beliefs espoused in it. Now if someone does not agree with everything in the Nicene Creed, then most people would agree that he/she is not Christian. Any theological controversy beyond the Nicene Creed is a disagreement between different types of Christians, not between Christians and non-Christians.

[AimeeM]

Try finding an option three group in South Carolina. Half of them I marked off the list based on the SoF. What if there wasn't any other group? Then I would not have been able to homeschool under option three. So much for the advancement of homeschooling freedom, right? Some of us would like to see more of a variety of speakers at conventions. Nope, anyone that isn't a fundamentalist, fear the government's every move, and homeschool for only religious reason type of person will not find anything of worth at the conventions or gets run off from speaking at conventions or cut down by other speakers at conventions. Yep, we've seen it happen!

 

That's one reason OLPH stopped requiring members to be Catholic, I imagine - there was a need/market for those who didn't "fit" anywhere else.

[SarahW]

Sometimes I think the Protestant Evangelicals writing SOF's just don't realize how much of their "church-speak" they dump in there that would be problematic for other groups.

 

I saw one recently where the very first line was "The Bible is the Word of God..." It was sort of ironic, since every for every other statement in the SOF they provided numerous Bible references to prove their point, but not this one. Ironic, since Rev. 19:13 clearly states that the Word of God is Jesus Christ.

 

I know for Evangelicals the line "The Bible is the Word of God" has a specific meaning. But for RC's and EO's, it is utterly and totally foreign and questionable, since to them it would suggest that you are denying that Jesus is God incarnate!

 

I decided to give this group a pass for other reasons. But really, I have graduate degrees in theology, and most of the SOF's I've seen just make me giggle.

[mommaduck]

That does suck. I am in a low regulation state, so I had not thought of this issue.

 

Oh and I avoid homeschooling conventions as well. But am blessed with a large homeschooling community that embraces a wide variety of curriculum. And I really don't have any experience with the dynamics of the south.

 

I am really sorry.

 

I experienced the "only county and area homeschool group" being exclusive (at the time I fit the group, but I heard the comments and some were said to me about others) in Illinois...a no regulation state. I experienced the most inclusiveness in a high regulation state (Pennsylvania). South Carolina would be considered in between, but entirely different in requirements.

[mommaduck]

I don't disagree with you at all. Lol.

The only thing I *can* think of is that most of the co-ops are taught by group members/volunteers; a group with a young earth emphasis may not want to risk someone with an old earth belief teaching their children? I'm not sure.

And you're right, I have read descriptions and decided they weren't a good fit. Even within our local Catholic co-op, we opted out of the science classes because they use decidedly young earth based (and saturated) texts and my husband vetoed the idea.

 

I know Catholics that are young earth (one of my son's Catholic high school science teachers was) and some that are not. In the co-op, it just never came up. When we discussed different types of rock, we discussed that...age never came into it. The same can be said of many things.

[AimeeM]

I know Catholics that are young earth (one of my son's Catholic high school science teachers was) and some that are not. In the co-op, it just never came up. When we discussed different types of rock, we discussed that...age never came into it. The same can be said of many things.

 

Oh I know some Catholics who are young earth too - I was only pointing out that we aren't, but it wasn't difficult to read the description and decide to steer clear of that class (for other reasons too; we do not want to support the publisher of said text, on a personal level). I wish more groups could simply be inclusive and provide solid descriptions - allowing parents to decide for themselves.

[fairfarmhand]

Our Homeschool group does not really ask members to agree with the statement of faith. They simply say that this is where the group is coming from so this is what you and your children will be exposed to. Since the group is sponsored by a Baptist church that is the doctrine (very general doctrine... nothing about Bible versions, creationism, etc. is expressed. )to which your family will be exposed. Whether or not you agree is entirely up to you, although I doubt that doctrinal pushiness from ANYONE would be tolerated. Most of the people there are VERY understanding of the Christian spectrum and we strive to all get along and focus on what brings us together as homeschoolers, rather than what divides us.

[kitten18]

The two homeschool groups in my rather large city both require SOFs to join. Heck, even some of the PE co-ops here have an SOF. It is not limited to academic co-op classes.

 

They are Christian groups that many Christians cannot join because of the very narrowly defined definition. They emphasize certain differences as major and exclusive and other differences that, to me, are just as large as non-essential and inclusive.

 

If you started a Baptist Homeschool Group, I would completely understand that I am not your target audience, since I am not Baptist. However, I am a Christian, so I should have a reasonable expectation of being welcomed into a Christian Homeschool Group.

 

It is totally their right to limit their group any way they want to, but it definitely not welcoming or friendly to those on the outside.

 

Yes, exactly!!!

[fairfarmhand]

But if people who don't believe in those specific doctrinal issues actually read course descriptions, they wouldn't be interested anyway, right? And would it be necessary to require people to actually sign the SOF? Couldn't the SOF be one that says "We believe these things; you are welcome to participate in our classes as long as you respect these views"?

 

Also, support groups have been requiring signed SOF, long before co-ops became a big deal. And things like sports days...do people whose children play kickball really need to sign a SOF? Really?

 

this is pretty much how the statement of faith works in our homeschooling group. BTW, we don't require people to sign the statement of faith per se...it is simply included in the information packet that all members are required to sign that includes membership fees, behavior standards, sickness policies, etc.

[a27mom]

 

 

ALL Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Mennonites, etc. are Christians. The Nicene Creed contains the basic tenets of Christianity, and all these denominations agree with the beliefs espoused in it. Now if someone does not agree with everything in the Nicene Creed, then most people would agree that he/she is not Christian. Any theological controversy beyond the Nicene Creed is a disagreement between different types of Christians, not between Christians and non-Christians.

 

 

Yes, that is exactly it. thank you for helping me make it clearer. :)

 

I know many many people who will clearly declare that they are baptist, Lutheran, catholic whatever...but if you ask them if they personally believe things that are directly from the Nicene creed, they will say no. When I was younger most of these people were catholic (because the majority of the people I knew were catholic). I live in a different place now and I find that most of the people I meet who don't personally believe the Nicene creed, but declare a Christian faith are Protestant, since i am in a majority protestant area. Sadly it is an awful lot of people. Oh but very few of these people are homeschoolers.

 

Maybe groups should use the Nicene creed as a statement of faith. But I still wouldn't join because I would like to be w/ non Christians as well. ;)

[jillian]

It is hard to find a group in SC. I considered signing and keeping my mouth shut so we could homeschool under option 3.

[Avila]

I know many many people who will clearly declare that they are baptist, Lutheran, catholic whatever...but if you ask them if they personally believe things that are directly from the Nicene creed, they will say no. When I was younger most of these people were catholic (because the majority of the people I knew were catholic). I live in a different place now and I find that most of the people I meet who don't personally believe the Nicene creed, but declare a Christian faith are Protestant, since i am in a majority protestant area. Sadly it is an awful lot of people. Oh but very few of these people are homeschoolers.

 

This is still a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what Catholic is. If you are saying these people called themselves Catholic but don't agree with the Nicene Creed, either they seriously misunderstand the Church they belong to or you misunderstood them.

 

Catholics recite the Creed at Mass. It is a statement of Catholic belief. If a Catholic is disagreeing with it, they are seriously misinformed about what the Church is and what we believe.

[Kathryn]

We are members of a "Christian" homeschool support group for which I won't be able to sign the statement of faith to renew next school year (We are becoming Orthodox). The SOF has nothing to do with teaching anything to anyone. This is not a co-op, we don't teach other members' children. It is for social groups and field trips.

[a27mom]

 

 

This is still a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what Catholic is. If you are saying these people called themselves Catholic but don't agree with the Nicene Creed, either they seriously misunderstand the Church they belong to or you misunderstood them.

 

Catholics recite the Creed at Mass. It is a statement of Catholic belief. If a Catholic is disagreeing with it, they are seriously misinformed about what the Church is and what we believe.

 

Most of these people only attended mass at Christmas and occasionally Easter. Some of them did know that that is what the church believed (Definitely not all of them) but didn't really believe it themselves. However since they were Christened and took first communion they clearly declared themselves Catholic. That was out east where this was prevalent. Now I am in the Midwest and I find the same thing to be prevalent in Protestant denominations. That is why I said I know Catholics who are Christians, not because Catholicism isn't Christian, but because I find so many people of all denominations who don't actually understand the definition of a Christian.

 

I would hazard to guess that some of the ones in these uber exclusive groups also don't understand the definition, since they seem pretty short on the concept of grace. Certainly any group that specifically declares you are not a Christian because you don't agree with every point of their detailed statement of faith doesn't get it. Although I could see a group saying they are Christian, having an SoF, but not at all meaning to say you are not a Christian just because you disagree with it.