s/o How clean does a house have to be to be healthy?

[Laura Corin]

I have lived in three very different circumstances:

 

a) I grew up in a house where most rooms were not cleaned from one year to the next. The kitchen was reasonably clean (counters wiped over daily, floor swept as needed) and the food was kept in a sanitary manner, but the floor was grimy and there was dust in the corners. The bathrooms weren't smelly but they certainly were dusty and there were rings around the bath/sink/toilet.

 

b ) I've finally worked out a way of keeping the house under control. The house gets deep cleaned (cupboards turned out, window seals scrubbed, bathroom ceilings washed) once or twice a year. Apart from that, the kitchen counters are wiped daily, the dishes are clean by the end of the day and the kitchen floor gets swept or mopped weekly. The bathrooms are wiped over twice a week and shower stalls/bath tubs cleaned every two or three weeks. The rest of the house gets dusted/hoovered two to four times a month.

 

c)Previously, I lived in the Far East with a full-time housekeeper. Everything was cleaned every day.

 

I'm not talking about which house you prefer, but which - for a general population, not asthma sufferers for example - is healthy? Is this an absolute, or is evidence of the health of the inhabitants relevant?

 

ETA: if you found any of the houses to be unhealthy, what makes them so?

 

Laura

[aggieamy]

Pretend I've added my standard neat freak disclaimer.

 

I think all of those houses are okay. My standard for basic cleanliness is:

 

Is the kitchen sanitary? Not spotless, just clean enough where food can be prepared and consumed without fear of contamination.

Are the bathrooms working and free of "filth"?

Is there a place to sleep that is clean?

Is there clean clothing available?

Does a child have room to play?

[Bang!Zoom!]

Can't handle living with breeding insects. There's gotta be lines.

 

This is why God made Ziploc bags, bleach and vacuums.

[justamouse]

Pretend I've added my standard neat freak disclaimer.

 

I think all of those houses are okay. My standard for basic cleanliness is:

 

Is the kitchen sanitary? Not spotless, just clean enough where food can be prepared and consumed without fear of contamination.

Are the bathrooms working and free of "filth"?

Is there a place to sleep that is clean?

Is there clean clothing available?

Does a child have room to play?

 

:iagree: :iagree:

[Laura Corin]

Can't handle living with breeding insects. There's gotta be lines.

 

This is why God made Ziploc bags, bleach and vacuums.

 

 

I think that this one also depends on climate. My childhood house had no visible breeding insects because it's a cool climate where the insects are.... undemonstrative. When I lived in Taiwan and Hong Kong, even with lots of cleaning, the cockroaches were a continual presence.

 

Laura

[Bang!Zoom!]

Yep Laura, I'm learning this the hard way. Really rings my bells and causation for new habits. Makes me totally twitchy.

[misty.warden]

Unless there are visible bugs/rodents and mold that is either visible or actively triggering my family's allergies and asthma, I'd call a house reasonably healthy. Whether I would personally live under such conditions if I could help it is another question.

[Laura Corin]

I'm wondering what makes 'A' unhealthy (as quite a few people find it). Is a dusty house an unhealthy house? Is it the grimy kitchen floor? The rings round the bath? Some people may find all that icky, but I'm trying to pinpoint why it's unhealthy.

 

FWIW, I wouldn't want to live like that now - I find it more pleasant to have a cleaner house.

 

Laura

[VeganCupcake]

I don't think whether or not the inhabitants get sick is really indicative of whether the house is healthy or not (other than food-borne illness)--it probably has more to do with the immune systems and personal hygiene of the inhabitants.

 

I like aggieamy's list of qualities of a healthy house. I think I would add something about ability to bathe and wash hands with reasonably clean water, though that may already be implied in the point about bathroom facilities.

[Laura Corin]

I like aggieamy's list of qualities of a healthy house. I think I would add something about ability to bathe and wash hands with reasonably clean water, though that may already be implied in the point about bathroom facilities.

 

There's a funny thing about getting clean: the washing water doesn't have to be very clean so long as you rinse well. I grew up with a twin tub washing machine. It was bought in 1958 and retired in 1981 when replacement parts were no longer available. You filled it, set the water to heat to nearly boiling and washed the sheets/towels. Then you heaved the wash out of the soapy water into the sink to rinse it, before spinning it in the spin dryer. Meanwhile, you put the shirts into the same soapy water to wash, pulled them out, rinsed in fresh water and span. Then the colours in the (by now) much cooler water. It all came clean so long as the washing water was still soapy and the rinsing water was fresh.

 

Dirty sink or bath? Rinse well and you will still be clean.

 

Laura

[misty.warden]

There's a funny thing about getting clean: the washing water doesn't have to be very clean so long as you rinse well. I grew up with a twin tub washing machine. It was bought in 1958 and retired in 1981 when replacement parts were no longer available. You filled it, set the water to heat to nearly boiling and washed the sheets/towels. Then you heaved the wash out of the soapy water into the sink to rinse it, before spinning it in the spin dryer. Meanwhile, you put the shirts into the same soapy water to wash, pulled them out, rinsed and span. Then the colours in the (by now) much cooler water. It all came clean so long as the water was still soapy. Dirty sink or bath? Rinse well and you will still be clean. Laura

 

You seem to be saying two different things here. The soap is what is doing the cleaning to my understanding so if there's still soap in the water it removes the dirt from the clothes. However if you're washing and rinsing your body in contaminated or greywater will it not deposit bacteria on your skin? Same goes for dirty towels. No amount of soap and rinsing will keep you clean after you've used a mildewy towel to dry with.

[Laura Corin]

You seem to be saying two different things here. The soap is what is doing the cleaning to my understanding so if there's still soap in the water it removes the dirt from the clothes. However if you're washing and rinsing your body in contaminated or greywater will it not deposit bacteria on your skin? Same goes for dirty towels. No amount of soap and rinsing will keep you clean after you've used a mildewy towel to dry with.

 

 

Sorry I wasn't clear: yes, the rinsing water needs to be clean, but it's not hard to rinse with clean water even if the bath/sink is dirty - just rinse your hands/body under running water. I've edited my post to make my meaning clearer.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

I don't think whether or not the inhabitants get sick is really indicative of whether the house is healthy or not (other than food-borne illness)--it probably has more to do with the immune systems and personal hygiene of the inhabitants.

 

 

Not arguing with you, but trying to zero in on this: if the house doesn't make people sick, why is it unhealthy? Is it unhygienic or just distasteful?

 

Laura

[Jean in Newcastle]

What makes A unhealthy to me is that you said that the rooms were not cleaned from year to year. Even if the dirt isn't readily visible in that situation it would still be there. A grimy floor is a dirty floor. A bathroom with rings that are not just from hard water deposits is a dirty bathroom. And dirty means germs in my mind.

[Laura Corin]

What makes A unhealthy to me is that you said that the rooms were not cleaned from year to year. Even if the dirt isn't readily visible in that situation it would still be there. A grimy floor is a dirty floor. A bathroom with rings that are not just from hard water deposits is a dirty bathroom. And dirty means germs in my mind.

 

 

Leaving aside the bathroom, does dust mean germs to you too? Just wondering...

 

Laura

[lailasmum]

My house is never very spotless, The kitchen surfaces/cooker/appliances are kept sanitary and the bathroom & toilets are cleaned regularly but its totally never sparkling clean to look at. Our kitchen and utility room floor are always pretty dirty. Mud, bits of straw etc... Its an ongoing battle fought against outdoorsy people with lots of pets I sweep our floors at least once day but it always looks messy, in the grand scheme of things I chose not to get too flustered by it. The rest of the house is pretty dusty most of the time.

 

I was always told that having a meticulously clean house was a bad thing for kids immune systems.

 

I think house A sounds fine for most people and generally it's obvious when not cleaning goes too far.

[Rebecca VA]

When I lived in Guam, large roaches and geckos were in every building, regardless of how clean the owners were. To get rid of them would require an enormous, extremely unhealthy amount of pesticide. I cleaned our house well every day, and we had a cleaning lady once a week. The presence of vermin does not necessarily mean that a house is poorly kept; however, it does make it a lot harder for the owners to keep the house clean (free of droppings and other icky vermin stuff).

 

I like having a society standard of what is clean -- like in the Anne of Green Gables books, where the housewives would discuss each other's homes and decide who was a good housekeeper -- because I think neighbors should hold each other accountable to a small extent and help each other if someone is having trouble. However, I would have serious problems if the government tried to enforce a standard of cleanliness.

 

Your B selection is the one closest to the state of my home currently. We don't have a cleaning lady right now; if we did, the house would be even cleaner than it is.

 

To answer your question, a dirty home (dust, bacteria) has the potential to make people sick. So even if they are not currently sick, they or their guests could easily become so.

[Janie Grace]

There is a big range between A and B. It seems gross to me to never mop the kitchen floor. I don't think that's clean. But -- I'll admit it -- I have never cleaned a bathroom ceiling. To me, that isn't a priority (or a thought!).

[Guest]

I don't think one should be able to see much visible material in bathrooms/sinks/toilets. I don't personally like clutter AFA toys/books/mail/clothing, but from a hygiene perspective, that doesn't bother me very much at all. Kids should be able to walk from room to room, though; have a neat spot for sleeping and be able to eat at a table that is clean.

 

My dh is a contractor and sees a LOT of bathrooms in the typical condition they are kept. He has some stories of how he's found bathrooms, believe me. It's revolting to me. At the very least, if a plumber was coming to check out my sink, I would at least do my best to have the rest look reasonably decent.

 

BTW, he also has a couple of restaurant-kitchen stories that would make you never, ever go out to eat again.

[Laura Corin]

There is a big range between A and B. It seems gross to me to never mop the kitchen floor. I don't think that's clean. But -- I'll admit it -- I have never cleaned a bathroom ceiling. To me, that isn't a priority (or a thought!).

 

Our bathroom ceilings get mouldy, as do the window seals.

 

Laura

[Rebecca VA]

We keep a portable dehumidifier in our bathrooms to do away with humidity. It makes a HUGE amount of difference in being able to keep the bathrooms clean and mildew-free.

[Guest]

Leaving aside the bathroom, does dust mean germs to you too? Just wondering...

 

Laura

 

To me, there's a point at which it does because it indicates that that surface has not been disturbed in some rather long period of time. If the surface has not been disturbed, any germs (someone sneezed, the animals brought them in, the kids brought them in, etc.) that may have landed there may still be there, waiting for a mucus membrane transfer. :laugh:

[VeganCupcake]

What makes A unhealthy to me is that you said that the rooms were not cleaned from year to year. Even if the dirt isn't readily visible in that situation it would still be there. A grimy floor is a dirty floor. A bathroom with rings that are not just from hard water deposits is a dirty bathroom. And dirty means germs in my mind.

 

But there are bacteria everywhere, all the time, and most of them are either innocuous or even beneficial. Although I think a grimy floor is yucky, I don't think it's going to cause sickness. I wonder if people who live with grimy surfaces aren't attending to their personal hygiene (handwashing especially), either, and that might account for some illnesses? Is there really any data to suggest grimy homes lead to illnesses, if there are clean clothes, satisfactory bathroom facilities, etc.

 

Not arguing with you, but trying to zero in on this: if the house doesn't make people sick, why is it unhealthy? Is it unhygienic or just distasteful? Laura

 

I would say distasteful, rather than unhygienic.

 

Leaving aside the bathroom, does dust mean germs to you too? Just wondering... Laura

 

Dust means allergens, but I don't think it means any more germs.

[VeganCupcake]

To me, there's a point at which it does because it indicates that that surface has not been disturbed in some rather long period of time. If the surface has not been disturbed, any germs (someone sneezed, the animals brought them in, the kids brought them in, etc.) that may have landed there may still be there, waiting for a mucus membrane transfer. :laugh:

 

If bacteria or viruses have been left undisturbed, haven't most of them long ago died and become incapable of infecting people? A few can live for weeks or years (or hundreds of years), but most die pretty quickly without a living host.

[Rebecca VA]

Dust = allergens and dust mites.

Unwashed surfaces in kitchens and bathrooms = bacteria, possibly mold

 

I think there's an instinctive reason humans go "ick" when they encounter dirt, and refuse to eat, bathe, and sleep in dirty areas. Even many animals prefer sanitary conditions. Certainly, there are people who have to live in dirty conditions, but they generally don't have long life spans.

[Laura Corin]

Certainly, there are people who have to live in dirty conditions, but they generally don't have long life spans.

 

Of course 'generally' doesn't mean everyone. I'd like to introduce you to my mother though. Her house is much less hygienic now than the one she 'perpetrated' when I was young and she's 88 and going strong. Rode a motorbike until she was 86. Frighteningly rational. Still climbs ladders to clear out her house's roof guttering. Her doctor compliments her every time she sees her on her state of health.

 

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, perhaps?

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

I think there's an instinctive reason humans go "ick" when they encounter dirt, and refuse to eat, bathe, and sleep in dirty areas.

 

Thinking more about this: humans go 'ick' when they encounter dirt, but the level at which 'ick' kicks in may well be conditioned rather than instinctive. I (and I think most people) go 'ick' at excreta - generations have learned that it is loaded with germs.

 

But dust seems quite normal to me. If I had grown up dust-free and being told that dust was icky, I would probably feel differently. I dust now because I think the house looks better dust-free, but I have no ick feeling about it.

 

Laura

[Jean in Newcastle]

Leaving aside the bathroom, does dust mean germs to you too? Just wondering...

 

Laura

 

 

Dry dust does not mean germs to me. Grime - which means dust and dirt mixed with grease or something else wet or organic means germs to me.

[Guest]

Thinking more about this: humans go 'ick' when they encounter dirt, but the level at which 'ick' kicks in may well be conditioned rather than instinctive. I (and I think most people) go 'ick' at excreta - generations have learned that it is loaded with germs.

 

But dust seems quite normal to me. If I had grown up dust-free and being told that dust was icky, I would probably feel differently. I dust now because I think the house looks better dust-free, but I have no ick feeling about it.

 

Laura

 

 

One never knows. I grew up in a cluttered, messy, dusty, dirty and almost hoarded house. I wasn't taught that dust was icky, but I do think it is. I'm compulsively the other way and I'm sure growing up in trashed conditions affected the severity of my aversion to a mess.

 

Some of my sibs are messy, though.

[Laura Corin]

 

One never knows. I grew up in a cluttered, messy, dusty, dirty and almost hoarded house. I wasn't taught that dust was icky, but I do think it is. I'm compulsively the other way and I'm sure growing up in trashed conditions affected the severity of my aversion to a mess.

 

Some of my sibs are messy, though.

 

 

Yes, one can react either way. I think that the state of my childhood house was not so bad that it caused me to react against it. One of my siblings is middling messy (but hygienic); I haven't been in the other one's house in years.

 

I have fond memories of lying on the carpet watching the dust motes in the shafts of sunlight and investigating the woodlice as they trundled through the cobwebby corners.

 

Laura

[Rebecca VA]

n/m -- I hope what I wrote wasn't misconstrued by anyone! But I took it away just in case.

[VeganCupcake]

Of course 'generally' doesn't mean everyone. I'd like to introduce you to my mother though. Her house is much less hygienic now than the one she 'perpetrated' when I was young and she's 88 and going strong. Rode a motorbike until she was 86. Frighteningly rational. Still climbs ladders to clear out her house's roof guttering. Her doctor compliments her every time she sees her on her state of health. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, perhaps? Laura

 

My grandmother is 96 and lives alone in her two-storey home, which is very untidy and probably quite grimy in places, as well. She gripes about having to go to the basement to do laundry. I can't believe she is still living there, but there is no stopping her. We are very hardy stock, though.

[AK_Mom4]

I grew up rural in the middle of nowhere. Many houses had outhouses and hauled water. I suspect my version of a "clean house" is closer to what Laura grew up in.

 

Dirt doesn't bother me. Some insects can't be avoided. Some clutter is ok too as long as the pathways are clear and there are places to sit and sleep.

 

Spilled food, trash or "filth"? No Way! Even I have standards!

[Janie Grace]

Our bathroom ceilings get mouldy, as do the window seals.

 

Laura

 

 

Oh, gotcha. Actually, now that you mention it, I did live in a house where that happened... and I did get out the spray bleach every few months or so.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Currently, most of us are sick (One kid has gotten over it. One adult and two kids haven't gotten it. The one adult works and the kids aren't old enough to do dishes. Three adults and four kids are sick). The house is mostly decent. The kitchen has too many dishes in the sink (seriously). I see two standards violations from where I am sitting (and I'll take care of them as soon as I stand up).

 

I absolutely think there is a standard even when sick. I don't think we're under it (yet). I'm going to see if we adults can take 5-10 minute shifts in the kitchen this evening to knock it out. <sigh>

 

ETA: I don't consider any of the examples particularly unhealthy. One or more may not be an individual's preference. But unless you had some reason you couldn't be around it, I don't consider them awful. However, I may not choose to eat at or use the bathroom at some homes...

[dhudson]

I have kids with environmental allergies so dust is one of those things that has to be cleaned so I voted 'A' as unhealthy.

[sbgrace]

I voted that all are healthy. None of those would even cross my radar as unhealthy. My son has a pretty severe dust allergy with related asthma. I have to watch dust here but I don't consider dust a general health hazard.

 

Human or animal waste/filth is a problem. Blocked exits or things that could fall and crush a person are a safety issue. Homes need running water and functioning plumbing. The ability to store, prepare, and consume food in a hygenic way is vital. If there is black/toxic mold I think they condemn homes anyway? My house is clean and I like it that way but I think my idea of unhealthy is something that might cause direct harm in the form of injury or disease.

[Audrey]

I'm wondering what makes 'A' unhealthy (as quite a few people find it). Is a dusty house an unhealthy house? Is it the grimy kitchen floor? The rings round the bath? Some people may find all that icky, but I'm trying to pinpoint why it's unhealthy.

 

FWIW, I wouldn't want to live like that now - I find it more pleasant to have a cleaner house.

 

Laura

 

 

I think the perpetual dustiness and griminess described is unhealthy. I think it is physically unhealthy, but also mentally unhealthy. While obssessive compulsive cleanliness is mentally unhealthy (and this I know is true), so is constantly being around and immersed in constant states of uncleanliness (the perpetual dusty/grimy house).

[Melissa in Australia]

There's a funny thing about getting clean: the washing water doesn't have to be very clean so long as you rinse well. I grew up with a twin tub washing machine. It was bought in 1958 and retired in 1981 when replacement parts were no longer available. You filled it, set the water to heat to nearly boiling and washed the sheets/towels. Then you heaved the wash out of the soapy water into the sink to rinse it, before spinning it in the spin dryer. Meanwhile, you put the shirts into the same soapy water to wash, pulled them out, rinsed in fresh water and span. Then the colours in the (by now) much cooler water. It all came clean so long as the washing water was still soapy and the rinsing water was fresh.

 

Dirty sink or bath? Rinse well and you will still be clean.

 

Laura

I had one of these for years. In Australia you can still buy them new, and get parts for the old ones. I know people who reckon that the twin tub actually cleans better. I found them very hard on clothes.

[Laura Corin]

I think the perpetual dustiness and griminess described is unhealthy. I think it is physically unhealthy, but also mentally unhealthy. While obssessive compulsive cleanliness is mentally unhealthy (and this I know is true), so is constantly being around and immersed in constant states of uncleanliness (the perpetual dusty/grimy house).

 

I think that a grimy house is mentally unhealthy for some people. Other people honestly don't register it.

 

Laura

[catz]

I live in a house that is almost 100 years old and the we are recirculating 100 year old dust in here. It is UNREAL how fast dust bunnies collect in corners and on shelves. Have I mentioned the spider webs? We used to live in a 10 year old house an there's a huge difference in that regard. So dust bunnies do not bother me that much. I am anti grime - no food waste, bathrooms and kitchen are wiped down constantly. I sweep/vacuum/dust other parts of the house every 2-3 weeks. Our bedrooms tend to suffer the most because they are out of the way upstairs. But no food is allowed in them. They are dusty at this moment! They actually aren't super messy.

 

My mom was OCD about keeping a clean house to the point where we were afraid to do anything in it. One time I came home visiting from college, set a bag to the side in on the way in. My mom yelled at me to the point about this bag sitting there that I went and got in my car and went back to college. So personally, I'm happy to have a house that looks lived in.

[Laura Corin]

I live in a house that is almost 100 years old and the we are recirculating 100 year old dust in here. It is UNREAL how fast dust bunnies collect in corners and on shelves. Have I mentioned the spider webs? We used to live in a 10 year old house an there's a huge difference in that regard.

 

My childhood home was 150 years old. If you jumped up and down, the house rattled: there were so many obsolete and abandoned pipes for heating etc. under the floors that they really resonated. The garden was full of oyster shells: oysters were the food of the poor in the 19th century and the garden was just used for refuse. And the dust, yes the dust.

 

Laura

[Kim in Appalachia]

I voted that A, B, and C were fine. While I would prefer B (well, if I could afford it, C), I think A works heath wise.

 

I voted other on the second one. I couldn't decide it there was an "absolute" standard.

 

Bad is trash (not clutter) overflowing or everywhere, garbage left out (rotting food on tables, counters, floors, etc...), backed up sewage in the bathroom, fecal matter spread around the toilet (and left there) and floors, a severe rodent or insect investation (because of the garbage and feces) so that their fecal matter is everywhere too, broken glass left on the floor, as well as other broken or disregarded items left around.

 

I'm not talking about clutter or a bad day or even week. I mean chronic issues that really are dangerous. I wish I could say I've only seen houses like that on tv, but I have seen people live like that. When I was younger CPS didn't do much about that, and where I live now someone has to get hurt from it before CPS steps in (because there are too many cases).

 

Really, when someone lives like that it usually means drugs. It could also be mental illness. And while I do understand how harmful it is to remove children from a home, to do so in this type of situation is for the benefit of all. The adults need someone to help. And I'll also say this, I've lived here long enough to have seen some of these kids grown, and they do wish someone stepped in to help or get them out..

 

My own house is closer to your B. It would be A if I had 2 kids and they were in school. (or like my SIL whose kids are in school from early to late afternoon, are home for dinner than gone every weekend at their father's. Her house is spotless).

 

When you have small kids it can be normal to have a day when the house looks like a bomb went off. But even CPS can tell the difference between general messy and so nasty intervention needs to occur (generally, you can smell it).

[AHASRADA]

I would like my house to be more like B, but in reality it closely resembles A. I think a cleaner house is more pleasant, smells better, feels better. I also believe many women put undue importance on scrubbing every corner of their home on a regular basis.

 

Unless your family members have allergies or asthma that are aggravated by a less-clean house, or are frequently sick, I don't think these variations in cleanliness have an impact on "healthiness". We are very rarely sick. We also occasionally eat food that has been left out too long, etc., and have never been adversely affected. In our case, I think exposure to a few germs keeps us strong.

 

Obviously, no one should be living in filth, but I don't think it is necessary to devote a large portion of our time to "cleaning" that could be spent on other things.

[jeninok]

We just moved out of a hundred year old house, the dust was unreal, it literally took hours after cleaning to coat the TV again. The floors were worn but lovely and collected every bit of dirt and dust in the nooks and crannies, and the windows breathed much more than I would have liked.

 

We have been in the new house and it is soooo much easier to clean, and it stays that way for more than a day.