My 13 year old son is being bullied by his Senior Patrol leader in Boy Scouts....

[ma23peas]

I'm hoping others who may have had this experience or those who just have a clear objective mind (as opposed to the mama bear in me wanting to fix this) can help me here. My son started Scouts last year, he's already a 1st class scout about to become Star...he loves Scouts and it gives him a lot of opportunities in exploring badges/work.

Last year, he was pretty somber and his Dad and I asked him to come and talk with us...it took some digging, but he wanted to know what a homo was, I asked where he had heard this term and he said some boys at camp had called him that and (faggot, retard, fatty)...so his Dad and I had to have the long talk with him about many facets of our society that he was not aware of...the troop is a large troop of about 75 boys but with only about 40 really active. There are five that are the main culprits. The problem is that the chief culprit has not been voted as senior patrol leader and his father is a scoutmaster...the second main culprit is also a scoutmaster's son. I have over the past months contacted 4 of the scoutmasters and let them know, their approach is to talk to the bullies and think that's it....well at the next campout my son gets it worse because now he's a tattler.

I would like to know if any of you know if the Boy Scouts have a process by which these boys if showing no change in this behavior should/could have their leadership roles suspended or put on some type of probation. I think the other scoutmasters are afraid to say anything to the parent b/c they are scoutmasters and it's awkward. But, it's been 9 months and the behavior has not stopped. I'm not one to run away from a problem and if we switch troops (my husband is all for this option) that means these boys will find another target....I'm just stuck trying to figure out what to do. My son has tried avoiding them, telling them they are unkind and it's not nice, as well as saying "why won't you say that in front of a scoutmaster?"....I've never dealt with bullying, and I'm tired of it always turning on the victim as him trying to find a way to "deal" with them and not the bully having to face consequences...any ideas??

 

Tara

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

What I would do is contact the "main office" for Boy Scouts, tell them you have this problem and have tried to talk to the Scoutmasters. Ask if they would like to deal with it before you contact an attorney. According to the policies of the Boy Scouts, this is not allowed and can result in a bully being asked to leave the troop.

 

"All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit."

 

http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx

 

Also, "Boy Scouts No Longer Safe Activity For Boys in X Community" would make a great story or editorial.

 

If your son is EVER physically touched by one of these bullies, call the police. There are juvenile officers that deal with this sort of thing.

[Anne in CA]

I was just popping in to see what people are talking about for organizing the next school year, but I couldn't let it go and not answer this.

 

Scouts is about character development!

 

I would switch troops, definitely, because you would want your son to switch jobs if people at work were behaving like this. But I would write a letter to the Council dealing with these concerns, because you are right, this will just happen to other people. When the leaders of these boys signed off in their books that they are living the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law, they were lying! The council that you belong to needs to be aware that if these boys have been making rank while participating in this behavior, the leadership has been deceptive, and this is probably carrying over into other areas.

 

And, just to let you know, another scout played a nasty trick on my 12yo son, and he was watched like a hawk by all leaders for a long time. My son belongs to a troop much like your own in size. In my son's case the other boy was elected Troop Leader, and the adults in charge have not cut him any slack to continue any bad behavior. He is a homeschooled young man with very nice parents, but he can be a real bad influence and so he has been closely watched.

[In The Great White North]

:iagree: Switch troops. As soon as possible.

 

Nothing you do is going to change them. Nothing the "main office" says will change them either. No matter how much the Scoutmaster watches, a bully can always find unobserved opportunities.

 

Suing the Boy Scouts is not the answer. It will not result in your ds being a respected and accepted member of the troop. And, like as not, the Scoutmaster will say he has been working with the boys in question and they are making improvements but it is a long process. Which could very well be true but taking too long for your ds.

 

I realize the culprits need to change their ways but do you really want your ds to be a training aid for their character development? I wouldn't. Find a troop without this problem before it dampens his enthusiasm for Scouting and group activities in general.

[Mama Lynx]

Yup. Switch troops, and write a letter to the council.

[Amy in Orlando]

Tara, I'll be a bit of a dissenter here. By 13, I think if your kids are going to participate in non-church activities, boys should KNOW the basic slang. They can know it without you approving of it. I think not exposing them to some of the uglier parts of the world is a disservice. I think it's important that they at least know what the other kids are talking about. Again, they don't have to use that language but by 13, a boy should know what it means when another boy calls him a name.

 

That said, two of my older sons are involved in Scouts. We've been with the same group since they were in 1st and 2nd grade. Have you or dh volunteered with the troop? I despise doing Scout stuff, but I suck it up because it gives me a chance to know who is leading my sons. (And, surprise, I've made a few friends.) After our many years in scouting, I KNOW that the parents who are not involved on a regular basis AND complain are not treated the same way as parents who are involved on a regular basis and then complain. Far? No. But, it's the truth.

 

My experience with Boy Scouts (not Cub Scouts) is that the more involved Dad is, the better. Is your husband involved? Is he attending meetings? Does he go on some camp outs? From what I've seen, this seems to make a big difference. I'm not endorsing how your son was treated, I"m just curious about your involvement as parents. Watching my boys get older is hard for me to watch, but there are things they have to know (whether I agree with them or not).

 

By all means, change troops, but if you do, get INVOLVED with the new troop. Don't just drop him off once a week for 90-120 minutes.

 

I will say my kids are definitely on the MILD end of our troop, but they do fine and the other boys respect their boundaries. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that either I or dh is around for most things. We aren't generally directly involved, but we're around.

 

To me, what you're describing, while ugly isn't worth a letter to the council or the BSA headquarters.

 

I hope you can find a troop that is a good match for your family. My sons have had some AMAZING experiences through Scouts that we could not have done as a family.

[elegantlion]

IMO I would not leave a 13 year old boy in a troop that continued to bully him. I was bullied as a pre-teen and I thought I had let it all go. I realized at age 40 that I was still allowing some of those unkind words affect me in a real way. It was very sub conscious, but I had to deal with it all those years later.

 

Just my .02.

[st_claire]

I would have your son stand up for himself. He is old enough to handle a bully without needing to involve you. Next time they call him a name, have him say something back at them, like "big words for a little boy". He should make it clear that he will not let himself be pushed around.

[Guest china mountain mom]

My 11 year old son was bullied by a fellow team member on his Little League team this spring. My husband and I dealt with it the way we thought best - talking with the coaches about it. It was not okay for our son to retaliate. The bullying continued. My son had bruises from being kicked in the knees with cleats by the bully. When we confronted the bully and his father, an assistant coach of the team, we were told that the behavior was normal rough-housing. The president of our town's Little League group did not stand up and denounce the bullying. Instead, he explained to my husband that he had gone to school with the coaches and the bully's father. That was his explanation as to why he wasn't going to do anything to stop the bullying. I understand his "siding" with his school buddies when he was a kid, but not when he is a 35 year old man who is the president of our league. My son will be playing Little League in another town next year.

 

I feel for your son and your family. I encourage you to contact those in charge to share your experience. If you get to the point where the situation isn't changing and/or you have had enough, finding a new troop is an option. You will show your son the appropriate way to deal with conflict. He will always remember how you "went to bat" for him.

[Peela]

Is your son attracting it somehow? Some kids attract bullying and it's good for them to learn to stand up to it.

 

However, generally speaking, I would go higher, complain, and shift troops. Scouts is about developing character and leadership skills, and if the leaders are not being strong enough, they are not good role models for your son anyway.

My experience is that that adult Scout leaders of any patrol make all the difference to the feeling of the troop.

[ma23peas]

Thanks so much for putting your thoughts out there! You all have said every feeling/inclination/expression I've had on this...for some additional background...

 

I am the chairperson of a Christian Girls Scouting Troop and head leader....I know what it takes to be in a leadership position and can look at it from both sides...needless to say I am very involved...however, with the boy scouts, they prefer the men to step up to the plate and there my husband tries but due to job conflicts (having 2 mortgages for 12 months means carrying overtime to pay the bills) it's been difficult for him...but the pastor of the church is our dear friend and also a scoutmaster...however, he has three boys and although they also homeschool they tend to take the boys will be boys attitude and "let them work it out" mentality....I've tried that. I think the bigger issue is these boys will be bullies because their parents who are scoutmasters don't take the scout oath literally...in other words, who could live up to that kind of code? we can't put that type of pressure on our children...or our son's overloaded with stress, let's let the kids work it out. I can't change their parenting skills or goals, but I feel how can they be in a leadership role and like another mom mentioned promote these boys by rank? I've also seen more eagle scouts come out of this troop that I really do not feel deserve Eagle....(poorly planned eagle projects that really would fit a first year scout not someone going for the highest honor) I believe an Eagle project should take months of planning and hours of work, not 4 hours in one morning...okay, I digress.

 

My son is on a campout this weekend and their troop has been invited to Philmont (it's the first time this troop in 15 years has been given a slot there...my son is eligible and wants to go...so I'm kind of torn....I don't know how he will take us considering switching troops....out of the 40 active, 35 are good kids...I just don't see how I should let these 5 turkeys rob my son of opportunities and I want him to see how through prayer and perseverance things can change.) and going to Philmont is getting him motivated earn many other badges...he's been working out to build up his endurance and really is excited about it. I'm using this weekend to see how it goes and how the father of one of these boys handles it...they're doing a 4 hour hike in preparation for Philmont and 3 of the boys are going on the hike...luckily they'll be together most the time and hopefully the Dad will have his ears open....we're having a meeting next week to discuss Philmont and it'll be the first time I've really had a chance to observe these boys. My husband did go to the first summer camp last year and knows which boys/dads are involved...his belief is that they're just plain thugs and they've had their chance to "change"....he wants out, but he's also very quick to make a decision based on his emotions...

 

I liked this troop because there is a mix of boys, there is another troop that is all homeschooled kids...but I really wanted him to step out there and be involved with a mix...most our extracurricular activites are with solely homeschooled families. He had played football, but now is too old for the community league and there is not a JV team for him to play on (our state doesn't have the Tim Tebow bill)...two of his best buddies are in the troop and it's tough to make this call...but I want to respect my husband and son and do the right thing...I'll update you on Monday after he gets back from camp and I attend the meeting. Hopefully, things will have improved.

 

Thanks again!!!

Tara

[AmyB]

YOu should pull him out and try a different troup or a different activity. Thirteen is a very sensitive age for boys and girls, and confidence hits bottom, so it is the wrong age to be bullied. It can have lifetime consequences. I suspect that 13 year old kids are more likely to do the bullying, too, because of lack of confidence.

 

Dd started learning to deal constructively with bullying at about 16. There are many adults who have never learned to deal with bullying.

[ma23peas]

Peela, we have come at it from every angle to see if he's "inviting" the abuse...I think it all started at last year's summer camp when the boy (now senior patrol leader) was torturing a frog...my son was trying to stand up for the innocent frog...two others were watching saying nothing, when my son spoke up and told him to leave the frog alone, the boy started calling my son names and making my son out to be the "kill joy" of the torture. My son then did go and tell a scoutmaster, but here again, this boys father is a scoutmaster...so other Dads are hesitant to really put the hammer down. The boy got reprimanded for torturing the frog and since then, my son has been the target of his abuse and since now he's the senior patrol leader and has a "posse" of sorts, the other boys just jump in as well..they think it's cool is all I can think of. That leader of the pack mentality.

 

This boy is a thug and I can't stand seeing him in that position of leadership.

 

Tara

[dirty ethel rackham]

As having someone who was bullied for 6 years in school, this rarely works. Once picked on as a target, unless one wants to become a bully oneself, they will continue until there are truly UGLY consequences. It just does not stop. I can't tell you how many times I was told to stick up for myself, stop being such a baby, that I needed to change in order for it to not happen. You know what I learned? ... That I deserved to be treated badly, that I was defective, that I had nowhere to turn when I couldn't handle a situtation, that I wasn't important enough for anyone to help me with the situation, ... that basically, I was unlovable.

 

Why is it that the bullied people have to become hardened? Why is there no recourse? The leaders' job is to train the boys on how to be men, how to be leaders. If they are unwilling to do so, leaving may be the best option. We left another troop for this very reason. I guess the girl with a big, fat target on her forehead raised a son with a big, fat target on his! I told my son that he did not deserve the treatment he got ... that the leaders were wrong for having such a hands-off mentality. Leadership does not develop in a vacuum - the "Lord of the Flies" does! My son did have some difficulty adjusting to he is new troop, but he has finally found his niche. He has some caring ASP's who are bound and determined to make this a positive experience for every kid, not just the forceful personalities.

 

sorry that this has become such a rant, but this is a VERY sensitive subject for me - this is the reason why I have battled depression for 20 years - why I nearly attemted suicide - I realy believed that God couldn't love me. The people who were charged with the responsibility for teaching me about the love of God, taught me that it wasn't available to people like me.

[paula j]

Tara,

 

Sorry you are having this problem. Too bad you don't live closer to us as our troop is great. I think alot of it has to do with our Scoutmaster being retired military.;) If any of our boys are anything less than polite and respectable they find themselves doing push-ups till they are too tired not to be. I agree with contacting the main office of BSA about this, your ds should not have to be afraid to attend an activity he enjoys.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Peela, I usually love your posts, but I have to STRONGLY disagree with you here. No one INVITES abuse. We need to banish this thought from any dealings with bullies. It is never OK to blame the victim. It HAS TO STOP! This mentality led to my near-suicide. Why is it that the kind, sensitive souls are the ones expected to change and the bullies get a pass?

 

Bullied kids do need to learn skills, but they should never have to deal with the shame that others think that they deserve the abuse. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. (Can you tell that this is hot button with me?) The best way to learn those skills is with the caring, non-judgemental guidance of an adult.

 

I do agree that, if the scoutmasters are not willling to set the tone, then it would be best to leave the troop.

[Mama Lynx]

Your answer is much better than mine, Amy. In my hurried read last night, I made some assumptions.

 

I agree that at 13, if your child is going to be in social groups, he will be far better off if he knows the slang.

 

And I strongly agree that your DH should get involved with the troop, if at all possible.

 

My thoughts were that often, when the problem child is the child of the leader, very little can be done until that parent steps down as leader. That's a cynical, short-sided view born of a bad experience.

 

But in general the answer to almost any problem in Scouts is for the parents to get involved. Troops, and even moreseo, packs, are generally only as good as the adult leadership.

[ma23peas]

Ellen! Precious Ellen! I have a big heart for situations like yours and I really have a no tolerance in my troop...with the girls in my troop I've encountered a very few instances of smart talk but not really bullying....if the person receiving the smart talk knows how to deal with it...I do nothing, but if I see them struggling, I have varied techniques...most the time just removing the child from the situation and asking them to come help me and then taking seriously their comments and having a mini-discussion...kids have learned that I take our oaths in our scouting program very seriously...Philippians 4:8 is our troop number and we get to repeat that a lot! :) I'm just so fearful that our society has lost that belief in Philippians 4:8...but how much more blessed our lives would be and I am soooo grateful that you found out God's complete love for you and embraced it....

 

I had one instance where I was "bullied" in high school...more like taunting really...it hurt my feelings but for me personally I really let it roll off my back...but my older sister got wind of it and she told my mother who was incensed and made me drive with her over to his house (along with my sister as a witness to his actions) and confront his mother and him at their front door. Now, I can tell you the drive over there was the longest drive of my life, how I soo wanted to just FORGET about it (which is what my son wants to do...)....and how just reliving the whole thing by standing there and having my mother give a talk to this family. But, the amazing thing was that this kid somewhere deep down had a conscience (or maybe his mother found it on more of an external surface)...but he left me alone the rest of the year and really humbled himself before me at school acting very meek around me the rest of the year, his bravado and arrogance were GONE! My mother saved me that time 30 years ago, but are families so much different that even telling the parents brings no response? Such a hard situation...but it will clear itself up soon, thanks!!

Tara

[Rosie_0801]

:iagree: Switch troops. As soon as possible.

 

Nothing you do is going to change them. Nothing the "main office" says will change them either. No matter how much the Scoutmaster watches, a bully can always find unobserved opportunities.

 

Suing the Boy Scouts is not the answer. It will not result in your ds being a respected and accepted member of the troop. And, like as not, the Scoutmaster will say he has been working with the boys in question and they are making improvements but it is a long process. Which could very well be true but taking too long for your ds.

 

I realize the culprits need to change their ways but do you really want your ds to be a training aid for their character development? I wouldn't. Find a troop without this problem before it dampens his enthusiasm for Scouting and group activities in general.

 

As a former guide leader who has seen all of this sort of thing before, I have to agree. You can't make the leaders do anything as you've already noticed. Headquarters could, but probably won't do much about it. Volunteers are too hard to come by. If it was one bully who wasn't the leader's kid, I'd leave him to sort it out. He can't stand up against 5 and it's impossible to stand against leader's kids. If they are allowing this, that troop isn't the place for your boy to gain the benefits scouting is supposed to be providing for him. Different troops have very different cultures. You don't get this kind of prolonged bullying if the leaders don't allow it.

Rosie

[Peela]

Peela, I usually love your posts, but I have to STRONGLY disagree with you here. No one INVITES abuse. We need to banish this thought from any dealings with bullies. It is never OK to blame the victim. It HAS TO STOP! This mentality led to my near-suicide. Why is it that the kind, sensitive souls are the ones expected to change and the bullies get a pass?

 

Bullied kids do need to learn skills, but they should never have to deal with the shame that others think that they deserve the abuse. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. (Can you tell that this is hot button with me?) The best way to learn those skills is with the caring, non-judgemental guidance of an adult.

 

I do agree that, if the scoutmasters are not willling to set the tone, then it would be best to leave the troop.

 

Well, we can agree to disagree.

Its not that the victim deserves any guilt or blame or shame- not at all. It's that one cannot change someone else, and if one is doing something that attracts certain behaviour from another, one can look and see if one can change one's own behaviour.

It's not that women ever, ever, ever "deserve" rape. It's that if they choose to walk down an apparently deserted dark street in a seedy suburb dressed in a mini skirt..they may be doing something to attract it that they themselves can change- something they DO have power over. it is empowering to realise you may have some control over the victim-bully dynamic, and disempowering to see oneself as a victim.

In the case of the OP, I believe some kids do act in ways that attract other kids to pick on them- and they can BENEFIT from realising they may have some control over the dynamic.

And the OP responded that they had considered this- which I think is only practical. Sometimes the most empowering thing to do is to move away.

[AmyB]

If you don't learn to deal with bullies, you relive it your entire life, in your marriage and friendships and you even teach your kids to be bullies or victims. Because we hs our kids, we tend to protect them, so when they face the normal bullying that kids face, they are stunned and don't know how to cope, and that makes them more likely to be victims. Wait until you can see your child has the confidence to deal with bullies, then let them learn before they leave home. It is excruciating to watch.

 

Ds went through a couple vulnerable ages, 13 and 15 (he still is 15), but his confidence is getting better. He is still hsed, helps with the business, and is a great salesman. I don't think he is going to have the problems dd had with bullying. He loves being around people.

 

Dd was in school twice. She was bullied both times, and I pulled her out and hsed her. At 16, she was accepted to a full-time athletics program. She knew she would have to learn to cope with the bullies, or she would blow her big chance. She couldn't have done this at 15. She has dealt with a girl on crack, a couple bulimic girls, kids on performance-enhancing drugs (they never tell, but everyone else can tell they are on them), verbal abuse and now a boy who hits. The first time he hit her, she hit him back right away, and he never hit her again, in fact he never speaks to her. The first time she was verbally assaulted, she spoke out immediately, and he never assaulted her again. Dd's coaches were shocked that this sweet girl would do this, but it worked. It took dd a while to learn.

 

Bullies find everyone's weakness, and pick at it until the victim caves in. If they face immediate resistance of the same sort they are dishing out, they don't try again, but, unfortunately, they move on to easier victims. Dd looks easy because she is sweet, but the bully finds out quickly that she will give as much as she gets. Two very committed and talented boys have dropped out because of the bullying, and it looks like a third boy will move to another training center that is not as good as this one. Dd hates watching these kids go, so she has started sticking up for the victims. Sometimes all it takes is to walk over and stand in a relaxed manner next to the victim while the bullying is going on. Sometimes dd needs to speak out. The bully goes crying to the authorities that he is being picked on, but if your kid has a good name, nobody believes the bully.

 

There are some good movies on bullying. Dd loves Odd Girl Out, and Mean Girls is also a good one, but they are both on girl-to-girl bullying.

 

I hope this works out for you. It is very hard to watch your child go through this. If it makes you feel any better, you need to realize that when the bullies get a couple years older, their dads won't be able to control them, but you will still be very close to your son. What goes around comes around.

[AmyB]

If you don't learn to deal with bullies, you relive it your entire life, in your marriage and friendships and you even teach your kids to be bullies or victims. Because we hs our kids, we tend to protect them, so when they face the normal bullying that kids face, they are stunned and don't know how to cope, and that makes them more likely to be victims. Wait until you can see your child has the confidence to deal with bullies, then let them learn before they leave home. It is excruciating to watch.

 

Ds went through a couple vulnerable ages, 13 and 15 (he still is 15), but his confidence is getting better. He is still hsed, helps with the business, and is a great salesman. I don't think he is going to have the problems dd had with bullying. He loves being around people.

 

Dd was in school twice. She was bullied both times, and I pulled her out and hsed her. At 16, she was accepted to a full-time athletics program. She knew she would have to learn to cope with the bullies, or she would blow her big chance. She couldn't have done this at 15. She has dealt with a girl on crack, a couple bulimic girls, kids on performance-enhancing drugs (they never tell, but everyone else can tell they are on them), verbal abuse and now a boy who hits. The first time he hit her, she hit him back right away, and he never hit her again, in fact he never speaks to her. The first time she was verbally assaulted, she spoke out immediately, and he never assaulted her again. Dd's coaches were shocked that this sweet girl would do this, but it worked. It took dd a while to learn.

 

Bullies find everyone's weakness, and pick at it until the victim caves in. If they face immediate resistance of the same sort they are dishing out, they don't try again, but, unfortunately, they move on to easier victims. Dd looks easy because she is sweet, but the bully finds out quickly that she will give as much as she gets. Two very committed and talented boys have dropped out because of the bullying, and it looks like a third boy will move to another training center that is not as good as this one. Dd hates watching these kids go, so she has started sticking up for the victims. Sometimes all it takes is to walk over and stand in a relaxed manner next to the victim while the bullying is going on. Sometimes dd needs to speak out. The bully goes crying to the authorities that he is being picked on, but if your kid has a good name, nobody believes the bully.

 

There are some good movies on bullying. Dd loves Odd Girl Out, and Mean Girls is also a good one, but they are both on girl-to-girl bullying.

 

I hope this works out for you. It is very hard to watch your child go through this. If it makes you feel any better, you need to realize that when the bullies get a couple years older, their dads won't be able to control them, but you will still be very close to your son. What goes around comes around.

[ma23peas]

Thanks all...the experiences shared really help to keep things in perspective, he came back from the campout very tired (6 mile hike preparing for Philmont) but had no complaints about any taunting...the 2 main culprits were not at the campout so I think that helped...I think if they're not there it doesn't happen...so I'm going to try my best to meet the two tomorrow night at our planning meeting for the trip next year....so far I feel encouraged having him go to a campout without a bad experience!

 

thanks!!!

Tara

[8filltheheart]

I am the husband of momof7 and an Assistant Scoutmaster (ASM) of my family's third BSA troop. We have changed troops twice. The first time was to help start up a new troop for homeschoolers. The second was due to a move out of state.

 

As an ASM, I can tell you that I would not have let these issues rest as a result of a sit down discussion with the scouts responsible for the harassment. The behavior of the scouts involved demand action and I applaud you for seeking help outside of the troop through this forum. I apologize for the length of this post, but I am passionate about scouting, and equally as driven to ensure there is no tolerance for this type of behavior. My post is in two parts: 1) Chain of command and 2) My view on minimum consequence for these boys.

 

I have a couple of questions. First, were the boys responsible for the harassment sons of the Scoutmaster (SM), or ASMs? I am also unclear as to whether or not they were all holding positions of responsibility (I believe you stated that one was the SPL)? Finally, where are they on their rank progression (important when considering the minimum consequences for their actions?

 

A properly organized BSA troop has a definite leadership "chain of command". The boys report to their Patrol Leader; the Patrol Leaders report to the Senior Patrol Leader (SPL); Other positions of responsibility report to either the SPL or Assistant SPL (ASPL), depending on the size and structure of the troop.

 

The SPL reports to the troop's SM, as do the ASM. The SM answers to the Committee Chairman, who is ultimately accountable to the troop's charter organization. Above the SM there is a parallel chain that extends to the Council leadership.

 

I took the time to walk through this for several reasons. If the troop leaders you spoke to were actually ASMs and not the actual SM, then the next step would be to make a contact with the SM, addressing two incidents: 1) The first round of harassment and 2) The harassment resulting from your first contact with troop leadership, this is particularly disturbing to me, because it is a direct reflection of the SM/ASMs involved. At that point the SM is obligated to deal with the boys involved. He will also recognize that he is equally obligated to address the lack of effective follow-up on the part of his ASMs. If the situation persists following the involvement of the SM, then the next step is to meet with the troop's Committee Chairman and the committee's representative from the Charter Organization. At this point in the process a parallel contact with the Council office is appropriate, although they will probably pursue the troop Committee route first.

 

I know this sounds quite long and drawn out, but it is important for the longevity of the troop.

 

I believe the actions of these boys demands more than simply sitting down with them and discussing the hurt they have caused. This behavior is counter to the very foundation of scouting.

 

Requirement 13 of the Tenderfoot Rank states: “Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.†Second Class requirement #9, First Class requirement #10, Star Scout requirement #2, Life Scout requirement #2, Eagle Scout requirement #2, and Eagle Palm requirement #2 are worded identically. At a minimum, neither the SM, nor the ASMs should sign off on this requirement for a reasonable period. Typically, a reasonable period might be one Board of Review cycle (2-3 months). However, given the fact that these boys retaliated after the initial discussion with the SM/ASMs, a longer period seems to be justified. Boys exhibiting this type of behavior must not be permitted to advance until they demonstrate remorse and a sincere understanding of why it is inappropriate. In addition, I would not permit advancement until I was confident that they made every effort to make amends with the boys they harassed. This is essential for two main reasons. First, and most importantly, your son has had to endure a significant amount of pain as a result of the actions of these boys. Second, the integrity of the scouting program and the Eagle rank demand that this kind of behavior not be tolerated. It is also important that the parents of these boys clearly understand that the failure to advance is a direct consequence of their boys’ behavior. I would also pursue suspending their leadership roles, again for a reasonable period (also impacts rank advancement). In the past, having the boys create presentations on the dangers of harassment and other similar topics to be presented during troop meetings would certainly be an option for additional consequences. However, the BSA has revised guidelines regarding this type of consequence for action and the council would have to be consulted first.

[unsinkable]

In a town about 20 miles or so from me, 3 boys were arrested on s**ual assault charges. A varsity and junior varsity baseball team was on a school bus together. Two coaches (who were also teachers in the school district) were on a bus when JV players were assaulted. The details are very graphic.

 

This is bullying taken to an extreme level.

 

The teachers were arrested for endangering the welfare of children. Supposedly, there were hazing incidents the year before on the bus and one of the solutions was for the coaches to split up...1 in the back, 1 in the front of the bus. This year, both the coaches went back to sitting on the front of the bus.

 

The coaches knew about the hazing/bullying and did nothing. Now the victims will have to cope with this the rest of their lives.

 

Ask the Boy Scout leaders how injured will your son have to be before they step in. Because on this team, hazing/bullying went on for years...but this is the worst incident by far. Boys who "tattled" other years were called names but nothing really changed. I see so many similarities between these situations. Why would you want your son to be around these people? A boy who tortures animals? Men who protect bullies?

 

Life is too precious to waste on these people.

[kalanamak]

Is your son attracting it somehow? Some kids attract bullying and it's good for them to learn to stand up to it.

 

.

 

Just FYI Peela (and I know this was long ago...I was a child in the 60's), I went to school in the American midwest (a "nice" town) and in Canberra. The Australian kids were so much nicer than in the US I dreaded going home.

 

Looking back, I suppose I invited being the odd person out, the weirdo, but to have "fit in", I would have had to give up that which I valued then and now: using your brain, working hard, trying to be kindly to all, good grammar, a lack of interest in clothes. I could "be me" in Australia, and not be taunted. Not so back home. I remember my first week in Australia. I knew all the states and capitols and straits, etc. as my father was a geographer, and the teacher pointed out how well I did and the *class applauded me*. I saw them do that several times a year when the teacher noted someone doing really well. That never happened in the US in my classes, and if I'd "had all the answers" I've have been called names on the play ground. Just FYI. I have very fond memories of Australia, in part because of this (and the better teachers I had, too).

[ma23peas]

momof7 Dad!! Thank you!!! To help you with specifics...

 

The main scout that is causing the most trouble (ringleader of the other four, he starts it and these other 4 think it's okay because he's doing it...stupid is as stupid does I guess) is the Senior Patrol Leader, he was just elected SPL about 4 weeks ago. Two of the five are Patrol Leaders for their individual patrols and I don't think the other two hold positions. The dads I have spoken to have been ASM, the SM has been difficult to reach and has not been able to attend the past 3 campouts...so I dealt with the ASM who were in charge of each campout.

 

We are attending a meeting tomorrow and I wanted to meet with the SM then to see what his response is and if he has been told of the previous incidents. Is there anything more specific I should ask...should I get the name of the next in command? Should I ask what the consequences are set up in our region? Your post is so helpful and I can tell your commitment to the organization...I love scouting and I see so many good families in this troop that I really hate to leave it because five boys are getting away with this behavior.

 

Thanks so much!

Blessings,

Tara

[8filltheheart]

Tara,

 

Your commitment to the troop is admirable given what your son has had to tolerate. Speaking with the SM tomorrow is the right approach. There is a possibility that he is completely unaware of what has transpired, particularly if he has been out of the loop for a period of time.

 

At this point, you must be specific and detailed. Be prepared to reference each conversation with the individual ASMs in detail (When, Who, What was discussed, and what was the ASM’s commitment to you). Also, if you can qualify the results of any of the discussions with observed changes (good and/or bad), include those details. Before I go on, I suggest insisting the conversation with the SM take place with him alone. The ASMs have had an opportunity to discuss the issue with him, now it is your turn. This keeps you in the power position, which you and your son deserve. You might want to take time to do a little research regarding the rank advancement process and the importance of those requirements that I listed earlier. Most troops have operating manuals which include expectations for rank advancement, behavior of scouts and scouts in positions of responsibility, especially SPL. If you have a copy, or can access one at your troop’s web site, take the time to review it in detail. If their manual is as it should be, the subjectivity of the consequence decision may be thrown out the window. If the manual exists, consequences for this type of behavior may already be spelled out in detail. If so, then each ASM that you approached requires training on the troop’s policies, in addition to refresher coverage on the BSA’s youth protection training (required for all scout leaders).

 

You should feel comfortable being very frank and asking the SM what the consequences of this behavior will be. If he is unwilling to commit, and the manual is specific, reference the troop’s policy. If he is unwilling to commit, and there is no reference to this type of behavior in the manual, initiate a discussion with respect to the Scout Oath and Law. Ask him what those requirements that I referenced mean, particularly during rank reviews. And, finally, ask how a troop can be led by an SPL who is unwilling to demonstrate total commitment to living the life of a scout.

 

The SM may request time to process, particularly if he is unaware of the situation. If he does so, express your concern that this has taken so long to process and request the contact information for the Committee Chairman in case you need to discuss things with him/her. This will help to set the tone in terms of your sense of urgency with the SM. While the SM may not have been aware of the issues before your conversation with him, your son has had to deal with this for a long time.

[Peela]

Just FYI Peela (and I know this was long ago...I was a child in the 60's), I went to school in the American midwest (a "nice" town) and in Canberra. The Australian kids were so much nicer than in the US I dreaded going home.

 

Looking back, I suppose I invited being the odd person out, the weirdo, but to have "fit in", I would have had to give up that which I valued then and now: using your brain, working hard, trying to be kindly to all, good grammar, a lack of interest in clothes. I could "be me" in Australia, and not be taunted. Not so back home. I remember my first week in Australia. I knew all the states and capitols and straits, etc. as my father was a geographer, and the teacher pointed out how well I did and the *class applauded me*. I saw them do that several times a year when the teacher noted someone doing really well. That never happened in the US in my classes, and if I'd "had all the answers" I've have been called names on the play ground. Just FYI. I have very fond memories of Australia, in part because of this (and the better teachers I had, too).

 

Thanks for sharing, thats interesting.

I was thinking about this thread and how i got through my whole childhood without being bullied- I think my brother did too. It just wasn't part of our worlds growing up.

However, I think it might be different nowadays- there are frequent articles in the newspapers about bullying in schools. Times have changed.

[8filltheheart]

Hi Tara,

 

My dh asked me how things went for you last night. I told him I would request an update. I hope things went smoothly.

[Starr]

Our experience has been that no one wants to believe children are really bullied, except somewhere else. The children who know will not say anything. The parents of the bullies back up their children. I'd move him ASAP.

[Julie in CA]

It was a difficult and emotional decision for us, but we chose to leave the troop. My boys participated in scouting all the way through cubs, and were up to Star rank when we left. Because the next nearest troop was just too far for us to drive to on a regular basis, we have quit scouting altogether.

 

I was a commitee member all the way through the years we were involved, and was very active in the day-to-day business of helping the troop succeed. This is not a matter of an uninvolved parent being taken less seriously.

 

My ds #1 told me about some bullying, but he was managing it fine, though with no joy. Scouts was just plain not fun any more.

 

Ds #2, I didn't know was being bullied until it became bad enough that he was physically....attacked seems too strong of a word. Another boy actually punched my ds in the side of the head, but my ds is a big, strong boy, and was not really hurt. My ds still didn't tell me about the whole thing, but ds #1 did, and I was shocked when he told me the extent of the problem. He told me that he was amazed that ds #2 even went to scouts, because of the verbal insults and profanity that were commonly used towards him.

 

I had discussed the issue of bullying with the scoutmaster several times over a period of about 6 months(even though his own boys were often the culprits), not on behalf of my own boys, but on behalf of another who I could *see* being mistreated. After the incident with my ds I brought it up again, but I could see that I was not being taken seriously.

 

One of the points that was mentioned here, that perhaps there was some behavior that was attracting the attention of the bullies, was something I considered (and discarded) with my sons. Ds #2 has been active in community football, and all of my children have been very social in other contexts. Not one of them has been bullied, even when in a crowd of kids I could tell leaned toward that behavior. It just wasn't the fault of my very social, very well-adapting ds--who can tell what dynamic allowed it to happen in this crowd?

 

In the end, I decided to leave the troop. While I believe that kids who don't fit in should sometimes examine what they may be doing to invite that kind of negative attention, I also don't believe that kids who are being bullied should EVER feel like they must stay in a situation that's causing them pain. Even though my son never complained to me, it's my job to protect him while he's still a kid and to teach him good habits for his developing adulthood. I would *never* want my ds (as an adult) to stay in a job where he was belittled, abused, and physically attacked. Ever. So...it's my turn to fix this for him, by removing him from the situation and reminding him that he's too precious to God and to us to allow that to go on.

 

It's still very sad...my boys were headed toward Eagle.

(What is it about Scoutmaster's boys, anyway??)

[Laurie4b]

The difference with this situation is it is not just kids. It's the kids of the leaders and the dads look the other way. The power structure supports bullying. No one kid can stand up against this. I think it could even be potentially dangerous. Bullying can turn physical or sexual. The fact that this started with the ring leader torturing an animal is a bright red flag. That is a very strong indicator of much worse things to come.

 

Sure, there are times when it's the right thing for kids to stand up for themselves. This kid stood up for the frog and has been socially sanctioned for it. Bullying is actionable in adult life. Harrassment is against the law. Bosses and companies who let it go on get sued. Additionally, the power differential is recognized in the laws of many states with adults dealing with adults in terms of harrassment, ability to consent (to sexual interaction), etc.

[Laurie4b]

ouch. ouch. "Attracts" bullies?

 

It's hard for me to picture a scenario like the one the OP described where it would be anywhere near appropriate to first ask whether the child being targeted is really the one with the problem via "attracting" it. It's one thing to teach skills to deflect bullying, but bullying comes out of the soul of the bully, not out of the soul of the bullied. Frankly, most children who could be said to "attract" bullying do so in the same way that an injured chicken will "attract" pecking: they have special needs of some sort. Yes, social skills training and groups are helpful to them, but I just can't see adding to the burden they already carry by labeling them someone who "attracts" the bullies.

 

With the exception of those kids with special needs, the other huge group of victims are kids in the "wrong place at the wrong time." They enter a group where there is a power structure that turns on them, or they are randomly targeted. Particularly at middle school age, this is an ugly fact of life. But it's the bullies who are the problems, not the targets.

[ma23peas]

Thanks momof7...and all who've shared their experiences, I don't know if it's comforting or discomforting to know my son is not an isolated case. We went to a meeting last night for families considering the Philmont trek next year...our troop has never been given a slot there and my son is eligible to go next year. We were hoping the scoutmaster would be at the meeting but it was only 5 assistant scoutmasters (2 of which we have problems with their sons)...we did not feel comfortable talking with them so we weren't able to get much accomplished last night on their end, but here's what transpired on the way home.

 

First, I will try my best not to share lewd specifics, but I was looking for a notebook to grab on my way out to the meeting and saw the spiral bound notebook I had sent my son off to summer camp with (hoping he would journal his 'fun' at camp)...as I was turning to a clean page, I realized there was a page written on that was not in my son's handwriting...it said, "I am so depressed, I do not have a penXX, I wish I had baXXs, yo mama is a doosh bag" and a few other things...(my son guesses it was written by the senior patrol leader based on his handwriting, and my son had never opened the book at camp so he didn't even know it was in there) it was the straw on the camels back and I went to my friend whose sons have been my son's best buddies in the troop, I showed it to her and she could feel my disapproval and frustration...but the meeting was beginning to start....the leader of the thugs was sitting behind me and he had 3 cronies with him. He has no self control...the scoutmaster was explaining details about the Philmont experience and these kids were cutting up and just being disrespectful in general. I watched how the scoutmasters handled it, they tolerated it and laughed off some of the comments made by this kid. My husband came in late to the meeting from work and was not impressed by our senior patrol leader's behavior...I really was 75% against switching troops, but after seeing this and this kids Dad was at the meeting and didn't care that his son couldn't pay attention to the speaker...

 

We want our son to be able to go to Philmont and they will break up into crews, but there is no way we would allow him to go if he's on this kid's crew...I think he would have a blast otherwise. When we got in the car and started heading home, my husband took our daughters in his truck and I took my son. I told him that Dad was really opting for taking him to a new troop, I thought my son would be against it, but he almost seemed relieved. I explained that we don't want to remove him from the troop if things were being handled but that his father and I doubt the leadersihp at the adult level and we can't predict how things will improve or decline. I said we had yet to speak to the head scoutmaster (his son is not as bad as the rest but he has a foul mouth and a hot head...son does not like to be around him)....of the 8 scoutmasters that are most visible, there are 4 of them that have trouble boys. My son has heard vulgar discussions of a sexual nature (a 13 year old boy describing girls anatomy and what he has had the girls "do" to him), a boy at the last campout used the "f" word repeatedly, the incident with the frog torturing, boys chopping down a tree at camp knowing it was completely against the rules, last year a boy from their troop was caught stealing and threatened a boy with a knife, this past summer camp my son went into another patrol's campfire to chat and asked one of the boys if he could have some cashews they were sharing, the boy started pelting him with cashews and calling my son Fatty, Retard, Homo etc...when my son couldn't take anymore he left quickly to return to his patrol's area and the 4-5 kids (one of them a recent Eagle scout) chased him throwing sticks and pine cones at my son...all these things have happened over a period of time, but I'm to the point that my son has yet to have a campout where none of these shenanigans go on. I asked my son what he'd like to do, and he said, "Mom, I think I've learned pretty well how to handle these guys, but if the next campout does not improve I'd like to try the other troop." I was so proud of him, he knows we don't approve of "quitting" or avoiding a situation, but we're at the point that we can't subject him to these types of "scouting" behavior.

 

So, I wrote a long letter to the committee chairman over our troop (just one step above our scoutmaster) asking him how I should deal with this and what is the protocol in this case...also our desire to switch troops because we feel the leadership is lacking. I have yet to hear a response, but he could be out of town, so I will give it some time and wait for his direction on this. I so hope that others will not be discouraged from the Scouts, there are many many awesome troops out there, I have friends who won't allow their sons in scouts because of what I've described, I know they're all saying "I told ya so" but I believe in this program and we'll do what we can to change the trend..thanks!!

Tara

[Amy in Orlando]

Oh Tara, Scouts should not be like this. I'm stunned by the adult leaders in the troop who just allow this to continue. We have a couple of kids in our troop, who left to their own devices, can get mean and foul-mouthed, but not one of the adult leaders allows it to get to that point. Two boys were asked to leave the troop last year after an incident much milder than anything you're describing here.

 

Don't let people say "I told you so." I hope you can find a new troop with strong leadership. Your son deserves much better.

[mcconnellboys]

We had a similar, horrible experience with the scout troop we got my older son into. There was no help and he finally dropped out of scouting (he won't go stay at any overnight camps, etc., either as a result of some of his experiences with them). While I called and spoke with the office person after he dropped out, he could have cared less and did absolutely nothing. A person who was going to be taking over the group called me some months after he dropped out and I told him all, too, but he only suggested we try other groups. By that time, it was too late. I could not convince my son to try another group.

 

There are good groups out there. If this sort of stuff is allowed to go on by the grown-ups running the show for this group, I don't think it will change until such time as these kids are gone and new folks filter in. I think your best bet is to find another, better group - FAST!

 

Good luck,

[momof3gifts]

Well, we can agree to disagree.

Its not that the victim deserves any guilt or blame or shame- not at all. It's that one cannot change someone else, and if one is doing something that attracts certain behaviour from another, one can look and see if one can change one's own behaviour.

It's not that women ever, ever, ever "deserve" rape. It's that if they choose to walk down an apparently deserted dark street in a seedy suburb dressed in a mini skirt..they may be doing something to attract it that they themselves can change- something they DO have power over. it is empowering to realise you may have some control over the victim-bully dynamic, and disempowering to see oneself as a victim.

In the case of the OP, I believe some kids do act in ways that attract other kids to pick on them- and they can BENEFIT from realising they may have some control over the dynamic.

And the OP responded that they had considered this- which I think is only practical. Sometimes the most empowering thing to do is to move away.

 

:iagree: I have tried to communicate this to my ds. He has an overall sweet and caring nature and he would've defended the tortured frog as well. It is something that I have found hard to communicate because I just feel like boys/girls are different. I only had sisters. So whenever I can I get my dh to have these conversations with him.

 

I would also look into finding a new troop if your ds is miserable. If he is still enjoying the troop and okay after all then maybe some coping strategies would help? I don't know what they would be though. Learning to stand up for yourself is an important skill especially for boys.

 

I feel for you all- these things can really consume you.

[RoughCollie]

I would call the guy who is at the top of the heap locally.

 

That's if I made it that far. What I'd probably do is something I can't put into print here. Suffice it to say that no one would dare bully my son after they'd had a run-in with me. And I would not take a gun or threaten to sue anyone, so don't go there! :001_smile:

 

Everyone involved would be scared to death of me by the time I was through with them, put it that way. It takes a lot to get me riled up, but what you describe would do it for sure.

[AmyB]

It sounds like your son has learned a lot and is a very sensible boy. How lucky you are to have a son like that.

 

Laurie, I just wanted to say that yes, harrassment is against the law, but lawsuits are costly financially and emotionally, and they take years to go through the system. It is much better to teach your child how to deflect bullies and deal with them. I tell dd she will never get away from it. Almost every place she works, almost every group she is part of, whereever she goes to school, there will be someone who picks on others. You can't spend your life leaving jobs and dropping out of school or favorite activities.

 

I picked dd up last night, and I met one of the guys she has stuck up for. He is a big guy, a muscular gymnast, yet he felt unable to stick up for himself. He is soft spoken and polite. He is from Nigeria, but has spent years living in different countries. He was very happy to meet me, and I told him that the kids need to stick together against the bullies. They come and don't last very long, but they cause damage while they are here.

[Mama Lynx]

I'm speechless. That kind of behavior was simply not tolerated in my son's troop in Michigan. That kind of behavior wasn't even tolerated in our Cub Scout pack. In fact ... DH and I were heavily involved with the Cub Scouts, and so had to leave our lone Boy Scout pretty much on his own - DH only went camping with the Boy Scouts on occasion, and we did not normally attend meetings, etc. But we felt okay about doing so because when we first joined that troop DH went to camp with them, observed meetings, talked with the leaders, and we had *absolute* trust in the leadership.

 

Your son does deserve better, and there *are* other troops with strong leadership. And for anyone else about to join - you can and should shop around for a Troop that will be what you need it to be.

[moreschool]

"so his Dad and I had to have the long talk with him about many facets of our society that he was not aware of"

 

This, unfortunately, is one of the true shortcomings of over sheltered homeschooling in that the real world comes with slaps in the face instead of specks of dust cast aside where one is allowed to move into the adult world in a normal fashion. At thirteen years of age, unaware of the real world experience of growing into an adult can put a young person at a real disadvantage with his/her peers who have lived a normal upbringing. It's a tough road to navigate if one has lived within over filtered surroundings. Experience is a better teacher than a "the long talk".