SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[4kidlets4me]

 

The Duggars are skeevy to me because her uterus is more like a clown car than a body organ. I have no idea how/what/if they can afford those kids. I'm just amazed that anyone's body can still function after all the stress of eleven billionty pregnancies.

 

I've only had 4 and pregnancy has taken it's toll I can't even imagine having 20 or whatever she has. Not to mention her kids think that lifestyle is normal! I want to cry for her daughters who will all undoubtedly have 20 of their own.

[Audrey]

I've only had 4 and pregnancy has taken it's toll I can't even imagine having 20 or whatever she has. Not to mention her kids think that lifestyle is normal! I want to cry for her daughters who will all undoubtedly have 20 of their own.

 

 

I will feel most sorry for the daughters who experience infertility challenges. If you are indoctrinated to believe that your value as a person rests so heavily on your ability to procreate, you'd probably feel even more like a worthless pile of poo when your god decides you don't get to have any/as many kids.

[Guest inoubliable]

I will feel most sorry for the daughters who experience infertility challenges. If you are indoctrinated to believe that your value as a person rests so heavily on your ability to procreate, you'd probably feel even more like a worthless pile of poo when your god decides you don't get to have any/as many kids.

 

 

Ugh! I didn't even think of that. :(

[LucyStoner]

My main issue with the Duggars is putting the kids on TV THAT much when they are too young to consent. Child actors and child reality show "stars" who live in California are protected by a strong set of laws about filming/working hours as well as strict laws requiring a trust fund for their portion of the show's earnings and requiring the kids to be specifically compensated. This is because of the long history of TV and movie production in California. There are not federal laws governing this AFAIK. In most other states because there has not been a huge amount of TV production to even make a law seem like a legislative necessity, there are generally zero protections for kids whose parents put them on TV like that and the children may not actually earn anything or their parents have full control of their earnings and can spend them before the kids are old enough to perhaps want to use that money for other things.

 

Personally, I am waiting for the first one to have a real teenage rebellion, dye their hair purple and start working as a barista in a large city, likely in the NE or on the West Coast. And perhaps write a book. Given the number of young disaffected youth I know from uber-conservative backgrounds working as baristas (or insert similar job) while figuring out how to move forwards with their lives, I really think it is very likely that AT LEAST one of the Duggar gaggle will do something like that at some point.

 

Also, while the Duggars can afford all their kids now, that was apparently not the case in the early years. I recall articles describing buying 1 bag of apples and 1 bag of oranges and that was that for fresh fruit for the week and it was usually gone in 1-2 days. That plus tater tot casserole does not a healthful diet make.

 

Again, I really have nothing against the Duggars but I do think rebellion in teens happens and I don't personally think parents should have the unlimited rights to televise their children's day to day lives.

[Guest inoubliable]

I didn't think of that issue, either. Are those kids being compensated? I can't imagine how I'd feel (as a teenager or grown adult) knowing that my childhood tantrums, sickies, or poor school performance was watched by millions of people on TV.

Wasn't there a family with quads or septuplets that were on TV for a while and they ultimately divorced? I thought I'd heard that one or the both of them blamed the divorce on the stress of the show and there was something about the kids being exploited. Or am I thinking of Octomom?

[LucyStoner]

 

I've only had 4 and pregnancy has taken it's toll I can't even imagine having 20 or whatever she has. Not to mention her kids think that lifestyle is normal! I want to cry for her daughters who will all undoubtedly have 20 of their own.

 

 

 

Even if each child has an average of 10, knowledge of how many names the average person can recall at any one moment indicates it may be quite difficult for the doting grandparents to know all of the names of their 200 grandchildren.

[Audrey]

I didn't think of that issue, either. Are those kids being compensated? I can't imagine how I'd feel (as a teenager or grown adult) knowing that my childhood tantrums, sickies, or poor school performance was watched by millions of people on TV.

Wasn't there a family with quads or septuplets that were on TV for a while and they ultimately divorced? I thought I'd heard that one or the both of them blamed the divorce on the stress of the show and there was something about the kids being exploited. Or am I thinking of Octomom?

 

I think you're thinking of the.... wait, I have to go google. Blond chick, was on Dancing with the Stars, greasy-looking husband....

 

John & Kate! That's it!

 

 

 

ETA: Google says they are the Gosselins.

[4kidlets4me]

I will feel most sorry for the daughters who experience infertility challenges. If you are indoctrinated to believe that your value as a person rests so heavily on your ability to procreate, you'd probably feel even more like a worthless pile of poo when your god decides you don't get to have any/as many kids.

 

You're right I didn't think of that.

[Rosie_0801]

I wonder how many of the girls will stay single. After all, their mother will go through menopause before they do, so the work should wind down eventually.

[Audrey]

 

 

Even if each child has an average of 10, knowledge of how many names the average person can recall at any one moment indicates it may be quite difficult for the doting grandparents to know all of the names of their 200 grandchildren.

 

My grandfather had a solution for that. All grandsons were Skipper, all granddaughters were Princess. He only had about a dozen grandchildren, though.

[4kidlets4me]

 

 

Even if each child has an average of 10, knowledge of how many names the average person can recall at any one moment indicates it may be quite difficult for the doting grandparents to know all of the names of their 200 grandchildren.

 

Can you imagine the holidays? :scared:

[Audrey]

Thinking of my grandfather makes me nostalgic. He was a crusty old pip, but a good one.

 

My brother once asked him why I got to be a princess and he did not get to be a prince. Grandfather told him that "all girls and all women are princesses. Learn to treat them like one."

 

To which he added, "and I'm telling you this so you'll listen to me and you won't end up with your wife stabbing you in your sleep one night."

 

Such a pip! :laugh:

[Guest inoubliable]

I think you're thinking of the.... wait, I have to go google. Blond chick, was on Dancing with the Stars, greasy-looking husband....

 

John & Kate! That's it!

 

 

 

ETA: Google says they are the Gosselins.

 

Yes! That's it. (Octomom also makes me feel squicky.) I never watched the show. I knew it was supposed to be about a couple with a gaggle of kids and I just knew I would get upset watching it.

[Guest inoubliable]

Thinking of my grandfather makes me nostalgic. He was a crusty old pip, but a good one.

 

My brother once asked him why I got to be a princess and he did not get to be a prince. Grandfather told him that "all girls and all women are princesses. Learn to treat them like one."

 

To which he added, "and I'm telling you this so you'll listen to me and you won't end up with your wife stabbing you in your sleep one night."

 

Such a pip! :laugh:

 

:laugh:

[Audrey]

 

Yes! That's it. (Octomom also makes me feel squicky.) I never watched the show. I knew it was supposed to be about a couple with a gaggle of kids and I just knew I would get upset watching it.

 

 

Trust me when I tell you that Jon and Kate were truly disturbing, all on their own, without the 8 kids.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

Trust me when I tell you that Jon and Kate were truly disturbing, all on their own, without the 8 kids.

 

I can only imagine. I seem to recall Jon being on the cover of multiple tabloids at one time, partying at Vegas maybe. He seemed a little too old and a little too desperate in those photos.

[LucyStoner]

 

Can you imagine the holidays? :scared:

 

Family reunions (aka "funerals") on my Dad's side of the family are large enough and my dad only has 6 brothers and sisters who have had kids (out of 9 total siblings) and of the grandkids (me and my siblings and cousins), only 7 have started having kids. We fill the rec room at the retirement community my grandparents lived in. The Duggars will need a convention center.

[LucyStoner]

 

I can only imagine. I seem to recall Jon being on the cover of multiple tabloids at one time, partying at Vegas maybe. He seemed a little too old and a little too desperate in those photos.

 

8 kids before age 30 might make anyone look old and desperate

[Guest inoubliable]

 

The Duggars will need a convention center.

 

Verizon Arena?

[Rosie_0801]

Audrey, you're reminding me of my grandmother. She told my sister and I to get boyfriends so they'll pay for us to go to the pictures and my brother not to have any girlfriends because he'd have to pay for them to go to the pictures. :)

[Guest inoubliable]

 

8 kids before age 30 might make anyone look old and desperate

:ohmy: No kidding!

[LucyStoner]

(Octomom also makes me feel squicky.)

 

 

People are not suited to have litters of kids at a time. Naturally, triplets and quads are rare. 8 at once is just beyond. And it is a huge gamble for the kids' health and physical development.

 

Octomom is also now doing porn to support her kids. I think her designs on a TV show totally blew up in her face.

 

I never saw an episode of Jon and Kate or the Duggars. The little I know of them is gleaned from reading magazines in offices of the many providers I take my son to in a month and at my orthodontist. :p We don't have TV reception/cable even if we were inclined to watch.

[dbmamaz]

i've only seen all of these people on the web, as i dont have cable. i was a bit interested in the duggars - i had an obession with large, wholesome family stories when i was a kid, probably because it was the opposite of my life - my mom was a career woman, out of town 2-3 nights a week, and sleeping around on my dad . . . my sister and i spent a lot of time alone.

 

anyways, i thought kate was a crazy bitch and john was a slacker who was totally in over his head and finally cracked - but basically a nicer person than she was. idk.

 

octomom makes me weep for humanity.

 

i knew a woman who was very religious and had never had kids. then her husband left her - she once tearfully confessed to me that she always wonder what she'd done that god didnt trust her with his precious gifts (babies), but finally realized maybe it was her husband whom god didnt trust. Yeah, i just gave her a sympathetic look - no idea what to say to that sort of thing. esp since she also occasionally took a purple whip out of her handbag and talked about the wild things they did on the weekends . . .

[Guest inoubliable]

octomom makes me weep for humanity.

 

 

 

This sums up my feelings on Octomom, perfectly.

[LucyStoner]

i knew a woman who was very religious and had never had kids. then her husband left her - she once tearfully confessed to me that she always wonder what she'd done that god didnt trust her with his precious gifts (babies), but finally realized maybe it was her husband whom god didnt trust. Yeah, i just gave her a sympathetic look - no idea what to say to that sort of thing.

 

Leaving out her bizarre overshare on their weekend dalliances :tongue_smilie: , this sort of stuff makes me so sad. I have had more miscarriages when we were TTC than I can count on a hand. If I believed that there was a god who was only picking certain people to have a kid or have more kids based on their worth as a human being or (which I hear a lot) "what I can handle", I can't imagine how much worse the pain would be. As it is it was hard enough to come to terms with my body just not working for me the way my husband and I wanted it to. When people say sh!t like "he only gives you want you deserve/can handle/blah blah blah" they really deserve to be punched smack in the face.

[Mom-ninja.]

I always wonder what people who believe that think about why God chooses to give babies to unwed teen girls, rape/incest victims, drug addicted women, abusive parents/spouse, etc. There are so many people who have babies that well, shouldn't be having babies. So why is God delivering gifts of heaven to people who are not prepared or not fit to be a parent?

 

I think I should tweet that on Dawkins' Make Sense thread.

[Desert Rat]

I do watch the Duggars (my dh calls them the Buggers) from time to time.

 

One of the sons is gay. I mean, obviously he hasn't come out. But, my gaydar just pings. He's feminine. Very. Jerimah? Jedidiah? One of the 14-16 year old boys. They don't show him on camera very often, I think because of this. When they do, he's doing something 'manly'.

 

As hard as it is for the girls in their designed and restrictive roles, I wonder what his life will be like. No option is good. Deny his nature? Deny his family? I know there is no middle ground there.

 

They do creep me out, but still I watch. Like a train wreck.

[delaney]

I do watch the Duggars (my dh calls them the Buggers) from time to time.

 

One of the sons is gay. I mean, obviously he hasn't come out. But, my gaydar just pings. He's feminine. Very. Jerimah? Jedidiah? One of the 14-16 year old boys. They don't show him on camera very often, I think because of this. When they do, he's doing something 'manly'.

 

As hard as it is for the girls in their designed and restrictive roles, I wonder what his life will be like. No option is good. Deny his nature? Deny his family? I know there is no middle ground there.

 

They do creep me out, but still I watch. Like a train wreck.

 

I think you are right about the one being gay. That will not float in that house for sure.

Jon and Kate? Loved that show purely for the entertainment of seeing jon get his ass kicked weekly. The story behind having the 6 is that she was told NOT to try on that cycle due to the number of babies they believed would be produced. She did anyway. He has no balls to tell her no and she is a media ho.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I'm getting a lecture about the voices my son hears. They're apparently the devil talking to him and making him respond the way he does. There's an unseen world and it doesn't matter what i *believe* because this is truth. TRUTH, people! Is that clear to you? Ok, good.

 

I was completely unaware that my son heard voices. Well the only way to help him is to go to church. The devil is after my son's mind.

 

I'll get right to church... After i finish the laundry. And the dishes. And any other thing i can find to do.

[dbmamaz]

the gay duggar - there is a movie i loved, streaming on netflix, called protagonist. its a documentary about 4 men who take something in their life to an extreme before they finally recognize the error and change. 3 of them are fairly uninteresting . . a criminal, a guy who did martial arts, a political extremist and a gay anti-gay preacher. The gay anti-gay preacher's story was the one that stayed with me. He so thoroughly denied himself to himself and the rest of the world, and threw his whole self in to it, and finally had to break down and face his truth. what really struck me is how much i believe this is the core truth underlying most of the anti-gay crusading - men who have been forced to hide their true selves, and believe that EVERYONE has to be wary against this 'evil' . . . well, and then there are the ones who were molested as kid by men and confuse pediophilia w homosexuality because their experience was kinda both combined.

 

anyways . . . i was always extremely fertile, and dh's best friend when we met was in the middle of a long effort to get pregnant. we double dated twice but i couldnt stand the woman. honestly, dh coudlnt either. ALL she would talk about was how much she wanted to be pregnant. but by our second double-date . . .we were already pregnant. it made it really awkward. luckily they got pregnant soon, too. and again soon after that. turns out they'd given a child up for adoption when they were teens, so it seems like there was a large psychological aspect. and soon after they had the babies, their teen daughter looked them up because she was struggling w her birth family and wanted to meet them.

 

life. its a trip. i just wish i could still walk it. whine. surgery recovery is going very slowly.

[dbmamaz]

hmm, my son heard voiced for a while. seroiusly. now he's on lots of drugs. he's doing better tho . . . he was really not a happy kid back then.

[Desert Rat]

Yes, I often think "Thou dost protest too much" applies to many of those wackadoos.

 

Jon and Kate were crazy to watch, too. I like those shows from a sociology viewpoint. I mean, what makes them tick? I was always sad for him because she would wig out on him and he would take it. You have to be pretty beaten down to stay in that situation. I know from experience. I got out of mine. And I'm so glad he got out of his. Those poor kids are a nightmare though. Did you see that Kendra Wilkinson and Kate did Wife Swap? Kendra said in an interview that she couldn't keep up with Kate's exact schedule. LOL I bet none of us could.

 

db, any news on when you will be able to move about again? Did they give you a time frame? I deal so much better with things when I know a time frame. I'm sorry you're still laid up.

 

And yes, life really is a trip. I hope you're up to walking again soon!

[dbmamaz]

no, no real timeframe. i mean, i'm looking on line, but it looks like there's just a big variation on how people's bodies react. and women and older ppl (i'm 47) tend to heal more slowly. i am slow to recover from childbirth, too - when i see moms 2 weeks post-partum, out at social events, standing around holding a baby, i panic . . cuz if it was me i'd be about to fall over and vomit. i cant do it.

 

i mean, the fact that he didnt want to see me for 12 days after surgery and didnt assign any PT obviously means he expected it to be somewhat slow, but i'm really cranky about it.

[Ipsey]

Years ago, I knew a lady at the homeschool park days who had several kids. She was extremely conservative and religious. She used to talk incessantly about how gays were doomed to hell, how she would disown her child if they "became" gay, etc. We all just sat there shaking our heads and thinking--'Do you see your teen son sitting over there listening to you and looking absolutely miserable? Do you ever wonder why he jokes about leaving home at 16? Do you not realize how you are going to lose him?'

 

 

One of the families we used to minister with had two sons. The oldest was 19 and living at home going to college where we ministered. Sometimes I'd call their house, and I would mistake him for his mother. He had such a feminine voice, body, hands, manner. If he's not gay, he's the most effiminate male I've ever seen in my life. He wrote a letter to ice skate Michelle Kwan encouraging her to accept Jesus as her savior because he loved her skating so much. He was an organ major and had an album out and was an autodidact in Welsh and Latin. Amazing kid. Father was super athletic and wondered why his son couldn't/wouldn't do sports.

 

I often wonder how he's doing now. The ministry program we were with was similar to most Evangelical ministries. Gay is not good, gay is sad, and if you act on it, that's bad.

 

*sigh*

 

When I stopped believing, I told a Christian neighbor I was just sickened at Christianity and how it treated people--particularly gay people. (Her husband had just written an anti-gay screed that was printed in the city's newspaper in the editorial section). She took it personally, but insisted that God was God and that homosexuality was something a person chose to be and she'd never look upon it as anything but a willful affront to her god. I bit my tongue. I'm certain that her middle son is gay. He reminds me so much of the previous boy I mentioned.

 

Things are changing, but not fast enough for poor kids like this. Bad enough to be bullied at school, imaging getting it at home--even from parents who don't have any idea what they're doing to their children.

 

What hell those poor kids must to through.

[chiguirre]

hmm, my son heard voiced for a while. seroiusly. now he's on lots of drugs. he's doing better tho . . . he was really not a happy kid back then.

 

 

:iagree: Meds will help, although it might take a while to get them adjusted. Really, once you've found the right meds life will be so much better.

[Desert Rat]

I think of my gay friends and how hard coming out was for them. How worried they were even coming out to me (and I already knew, LOL). They shouldn't have to be afraid. It should be as easy as saying "I don't like broccoli."

 

I don't think either of my boys are gay. I don't get that impression. But, I've told them both that it doesn't matter to me one little bit. It's not even something I would be momentarily sad about. Now, ax murderer? Yes, I would cry. Please, don't be an ax murderer. Don't make your momma cry. :)

[LucyStoner]

One of the sons is gay. I mean, obviously he hasn't come out.

 

 

Well the math definitely tilts that way. While it is possible to roll the dice 20 times and end up with no gay children, ~1 in 10 people are gay and if you keep having kids, at some point...

 

The outcomes veer about 4 main ways for gay kids in extremely religious and patriarchal homes:

 

- He stays with his family and gets a massive case of internalized self hate. Gets married and tries to live the life his parents wanted for him. Maybe this explodes at some point. Maybe he just implodes and he lives a very stressed and anxious life.

 

-He moves away as a young adult and because of massive self hate, has a fairly dangerous and reckless life.

 

-He somehow seems through the BS, moves away from his family and becomes the purple haired barista somewhere where being gay is not considered a big deal like I referenced in a previous post while he gets his life sorted out.

 

-And sadly the other option is self harm aw a youth and possible suicide It happens. More often than it should, which is never.

 

Or some combination. Option 3 is the one that seems to work out the best in the long term.

 

I don't even want to think about how hard it is for kids who are gay to grow up in homes that will reject them. It breaks my heart.

[LucyStoner]

Years ago, I knew a lady at the homeschool park days who had several kids. She was extremely conservative and religious. She used to talk incessantly about how gays were doomed to hell, how she would disown her child if they "became" gay, etc. We all just sat there shaking our heads and thinking--'Do you see your teen son sitting over there listening to you and looking absolutely miserable? Do you ever wonder why he jokes about leaving home at 16? Do you not realize how you are going to lose him?'

 

People like this know. Somewhere in themselves they know. And they are foolish enough to think that their verbal diarrhea of hate and admonition will somehow forestall or prevent the inevitable. They choose their beliefs over their children. In the end many of them end up regretting it or reconciling with their adult kids later on when they learn to accept them but many will just miss out on their child's entire life.

[dbmamaz]

it makes me angry, i admit, that some people are so cruel to their kids, and i bend over backwards to accept my daughter exactly as she is and she still hates me and refuses to accept me for who I am. grrr.

 

the guy in the movie, the gay preacher - when he first came out, he did cross-dress burlesque shows for a while, then finally settled down in to a stable relationship. but he apparently really needed to let his freak flag fly for a while!

 

what makes me sick is that there are whole communities where the adults condone bullying of gay kids because being gay is worse than being a bully . . . violence in the name of god is righteous. its just so depressing these poor kids are being made to hate themselves and this entire world.

[Lady Florida.]

I think of my gay friends and how hard coming out was for them. How worried they were even coming out to me (and I already knew, LOL). They shouldn't have to be afraid. It should be as easy as saying "I don't like broccoli."

 

 

 

 

When I taught high school I had an assistant principal who was gay. Though she never came out, everyone knew. And everyone knew that's why she probably never made principal. She would have been an amazing principal too. She was the kind of school administrator who was tough but fair - with both the kids she had to discipline and the teachers under her. She truly loved kids and what she did. It was sad really. She never fought it because it would have been too much trouble. She was finally able to be herself after she retired.

[LaxMom]

I think of my gay friends and how hard coming out was for them. How worried they were even coming out to me (and I already knew, LOL). They shouldn't have to be afraid. It should be as easy as saying "I don't like broccoli."

 

I don't think either of my boys are gay. I don't get that impression. But, I've told them both that it doesn't matter to me one little bit. It's not even something I would be momentarily sad about. Now, ax murderer? Yes, I would cry. Please, don't be an ax murderer. Don't make your momma cry. :)

 

People are so crazy pushy about whether or not you like broccoli

 

(or, in my case, salmon... Just don't like it, despite eating it cooked in every conceivable way, and no, it's not a "strong fish" thing. I like oily fishes. I just don't like salmon)

 

... and that really has no bearing on their worldview. I can't imagine what it's like to grow into yourself with that kind of pressure,

 

I'll be happy to have my children go forth as ethical and thinking people. The rest of the details are theirs to define. (And, yeah, that's a "no" on the axe-murderer ;) )

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I'll be happy to have my children go forth as ethical and thinking people. The rest of the details are theirs to define.

 

I may have to start repeating those two lines over and over to some people.

[jeninok]

I think of my gay friends and how hard coming out was for them. How worried they were even coming out to me (and I already knew, LOL). They shouldn't have to be afraid. It should be as easy as saying "I don't like broccoli."

 

I don't think either of my boys are gay. I don't get that impression. But, I've told them both that it doesn't matter to me one little bit. It's not even something I would be momentarily sad about. Now, ax murderer? Yes, I would cry. Please, don't be an ax murderer. Don't make your momma cry. :)

 

I don't think DS is gay, he does for sure notice pretty girls now. But he is not athletic and is just a kind soul. But people.have asked me how I would feel if he was. Honestly I can't imagine anyone asking a mom that, but it would have no impact on how I felt or thought about him. We have told him that too, that we don't care who anyone loves. Just as long as they are happy and being treated well. Who the hell cares about the specifics!

 

He watched some Torch wood with me this winter, that took some explaining Since it was his first exposure to the idea of being bi. It did give us an opportunity for some good discussions though!

[Audrey]

In light of the recent posts, and other threads on the boards... I'm glad to know this. You can't hide behind your religion or your politics when it comes to hate speech.

[delaney]

I'm moving to Canada. I seriously hate this place right now.

[Guest inoubliable]

In light of the recent posts, and other threads on the boards... I'm glad to know this. You can't hide behind your religion or your politics when it comes to hate speech.

 

Oh Canada! :001_wub:

[Guest inoubliable]

I'm moving to Canada. I seriously hate this place right now.

 

Wanna start a convoy?

[Ipsey]

I'm tellin' ya. My husband's job has lost funding and we're looking for new positions. I'd love to get to Canada. We're looking, but having a tough time finding positions. He's a research ecologist and habitat biologist (Ph.D). We have no idea the best ways to do it. Can you help me out Audrey? :)

[Guest inoubliable]

I'm tellin' ya. My husband's job has lost funding and we're looking for new positions. I'd love to get to Canada. We're looking, but having a tough time finding positions. He's a research ecologist and habitat biologist (Ph.D). We have no idea the best ways to do it. Can you help me out Audrey? :)

 

:bigear:

[HRAAB]

My dh and I joke about hauling ourselves up to Canada for several reasons. The other day I flipped past a Christian radio station. They were talking about Canada and lamenting how secular the country had become. After the last couple election years, it's sounding better all the time. Of course, it's just a dream, but a nice one. Vacationing is about as close as we'll get.