SOCIAL GROUP: Discussing Progressive Christianity

[Veritaserum]

Have any of you been to a Quaker meeting? It sounds like it might feel awkward to sit in silence until someone is moved. The LDS church has a meeting like this once a month (testimony meeting). Sometimes the people who speak do bring a spiritual insight or gift. Most of the time what's shared is a preset list of things the person knows to be true about the church or religion. While the people probably mean what they say, it's the same phrases over and over and it doesn't feel very genuine or insightful (to me anyway). Occasionally a person will get up and speak about something random, awkward, inappropriate, or even offensive. There are periods of silence during which people fidget until another person gets up and walks to the pulpit. These meetings are also held on the same day that Mormons go without food or drink for two meals (fasting). The low blood sugar might be a factor in why crazy things get said sometimes....

[Jenny in Florida]

Wondering if I can join in, too? I don't post often to the board (but lurk much) but this thread jumped out at me. I've been having many of the same questions and thoughts. Has anyone considered or looked at reformed or nontheist Quakerism?

 

Yes, I've done a lot of reading about Quakerism and have been drawn to that, too. My challenge on that front is that there is only one meeting within anything like a reasonable driving distance from me, and it is unprogrammed. I need something more structured for worship. I also thrive on good music as part of the service.

[Guest]

I'd like to step in here as well. Some of the ladies here have participated in threads I've introduced where I've struggled over some element of the Christian faith. I don't really know if I fit in anywhere. I used to go to a Brian McLeran church and that was certainly progressive, but then I didn't like the children's "programs" and (oddly) part of the reason was the lack of doctrine. It makes sense that they wouldn't teach the kids anything doctrinal, but I don't want my kids to be doctrinally ignorant, either. We left that church. Now we attend a church that would not be called progressive, but it is still more "modern" than some. There are subjects I don't think our pastor ever touches; perhaps he himself is not sure what he thinks about certain things. (For example, I've never heard him comment on young-earth beliefs and I've never heard him argue against evolution.) I think I'm in a paradoxical position in some ways, because I would rather my children grow up identifying themselves as Christian. If they reconsider the finer points later, that doesn't bother me at all, but for many reasons and the sake of stability, I want them to grow up in the Christian framework. It makes me seem a little like I'm living a double life sometimes. :bored:

[NotSoObvious]

NM. I'll PM her. I don't want this to feel like religion bashing...

[Dicentra]

I haven't attended a Quaker meeting but would like to. I think the closest meeting to me is a 3 hour drive and I'm not sure how programmed it is. I'm a pretty extreme introvert so my own faith-journey doesn't really include trying to find a like-minded community to belong to. I think I'd feel most comfortable just sitting by myself in silence and waiting and thinking - but if I'm not identifying with a community, is it still called Quakerism? Or is it just "my-own-version-of-whatever-I-think-spirituality-should-be-for-me-and-I-get-to-make-up-my-own-rules"? ;) Somehow, for me, that sort of feels like taking the easy way out. If I don't have a faith community to be accountable to, it feels like I'm just cruising the aisles of some sort of "spititual grocery store" and I'm picking and choosing all the things I like from different faiths and leaving behind the things I don't like. In belonging to any faith, is there an element of taking the bad with the good that makes it... I don't know... Authentic, some how?

 

Sorry - this is kind of rambling and disjointed. I'm so glad this thread was started, though - it's giving me lots to mull over. :)

[Guest]

I haven't attended a Quaker meeting but would like to. I think the closest meeting to me is a 3 hour drive and I'm not sure how programmed it is. I'm a pretty extreme introvert so my own faith-journey doesn't really include trying to find a like-minded community to belong to. I think I'd feel most comfortable just sitting by myself in silence and waiting and thinking - but if I'm not identifying with a community, is it still called Quakerism? Or is it just "my-own-version-of-whatever-I-think-spirituality-should-be-for-me-and-I-get-to-make-up-my-own-rules"? ;) Somehow, for me, that sort of feels like taking the easy way out. If I don't have a faith community to be accountable to, it feels like I'm just cruising the aisles of some sort of "spititual grocery store" and I'm picking and choosing all the things I like from different faiths and leaving behind the things I don't like. In belonging to any faith, is there an element of taking the bad with the good that makes it... I don't know... Authentic, some how?

 

Sorry - this is kind of rambling and disjointed. I'm so glad this thread was started, though - it's giving me lots to mull over. :)

 

 

I think the bolded is important and true.

[Aelwydd]

I haven't attended a Quaker meeting but would like to. I think the closest meeting to me is a 3 hour drive and I'm not sure how programmed it is. I'm a pretty extreme introvert so my own faith-journey doesn't really include trying to find a like-minded community to belong to. I think I'd feel most comfortable just sitting by myself in silence and waiting and thinking - but if I'm not identifying with a community, is it still called Quakerism? Or is it just "my-own-version-of-whatever-I-think-spirituality-should-be-for-me-and-I-get-to-make-up-my-own-rules"? ;) Somehow, for me, that sort of feels like taking the easy way out. If I don't have a faith community to be accountable to, it feels like I'm just cruising the aisles of some sort of "spititual grocery store" and I'm picking and choosing all the things I like from different faiths and leaving behind the things I don't like. In belonging to any faith, is there an element of taking the bad with the good that makes it... I don't know... Authentic, some how?

 

Sorry - this is kind of rambling and disjointed. I'm so glad this thread was started, though - it's giving me lots to mull over. :)

 

 

You're describing my own "rambling" thoughts as well. :)

 

My dh has always been more of a theological "purist" than me; so it has been harder for him to adjust to a church that doesn't reflect his beliefs very closely.

 

However, over Christmas, I got him to go with me to midnight mass at a parish that we both attended before dh had a spiritual crisis of sorts a few years ago. He enjoyed it immensely, and I think it was comforting for him, as it was for me. He said must the same thing--that you sort of find the best expression of worship you can, and develop tolerance and patience for those areas that may not match up absolutely with your own beliefs. I told him that is exactly what I feel as well. There are some things I identify more with in Quakerism, and some other things that draw me to the Episcopal tradition.

 

I feel that I could make my home in either place, but neither is the "perfect" match. But, I don't know that I'd want to be in a church that 100% sees the world the same way I do. After all, that wouldn't leave very much room for my own personal striving and growth, would it?

[sparrow]

I hope to get my thoughts better organized at some point, but here I am :001_smile: .

 

I think I identify as agnostic currently, but I'm typically always seeking, in a superficial way. As I stated in the previous thread, I struggle with the reason I have of sliver a faith left. Is it because I have it in my history or is there *something* else pushing me that way?

 

There are three men (well, actually two and a half men :D ) that really challenge my thoughts on religion. First, my dh is the kindest, most moral person I know, and he identifies as agnostic. He is supportive of any path I dabble in, and will even join me for services. The second man is the husband of a dear friend. He's a lot like my husband, but identifies as Christian. He's just a really good man and strongly believes the teachings of Jesus. The third is my son, who seemingly joined us earthside with an enduring faith. We obviously haven't raised him in any religion or church, but he has always talked of God and prayed like an old soul. Where does that come from?! His sister is the skeptic and has asked him, "Why do you believe this stuff? How do you know it's true?" He'll answer simply with, "I just know it." That. I want that.

 

So, just before Christmas, I got stuck in the parking lot at the grocery store listening to an episode of This American Life (Heretics). It was about Rev. Carlton Pearson and his conversion to a Gospel of Inclusion. I was intrigued. I've been soooo sick since then, I haven't researched much further, so y'all could tell me he's a total loser, but I *really* liked what he had to say. It kind of got me thinking about things, yet again. I come from an evangelical background, so the things I heard Rev. Peterson say really resonated with me.

 

So, that's briefly where I'm at right now. There's a LOT more to my story, that's rife with shame and guilt. Things I didn't want to expose my kids to, by taking them to church, but I have guilt for not doing that, too :glare: .

[Joanne]

Checking in.

 

I am label-less in terms of spirituality.

 

I believe in Jesus - that he lived.

 

In fact, I believe in most spiritual leaders/teachers/gurus. There are things I don't like about each of them, also. I am NOT a fan of Paul (from the Christian bible) at all.

 

I like the common myths - the creation myths. The myths that explain bad/evil. The floods. I don't like them as science, but as metaphor and as a representation that man has been searching for meaning forever.

 

"Worship" has never really touched me. Ever.

 

Service (to others) has.

 

I enjoy study and discussion.

 

I don't believe in hierarchy, in "sin", in innate selfishness (except as a developmental stage of self centeredness). I think "religion" has disenfranchised and subjugated women.

 

I am SO tired of people being the boss of me that I don't even want to seek a "meditation" teacher.

 

 

 

Sounds like we should start a Marcus Borg Fan club ;-)

 

I hope Jenny doesn't mind, but are there certain topics that you would like to discuss, in addition to sharing resources?

 

I would love to hear about:

How/if you incorporate meditation into your faith practices

How you are teaching christianity and/or world religions to your kids

If you believe God acts in people's lives in response to prayer or not

 

 

Gotta run but back for more soon ;-)

 

I used to meditate regularly (When I identified as a Christian). I particularly liked Lectio Divina and Centering Prayer (I like Thomas Keating's books/work).

 

I presented meditation recently for work as a life skill. The research behind it as beneficial is compelling. I've read a lot about it; I am turned off by the rules, the right way, the posture. It's a season, I am sure, emerging from having so many life circumstances dictating my time.

 

I have started meditation "my way."

 

My kids grew up (they are now 17, 16 and nearly 14) Christian. I now counter some of that with why I don't believe in a traditional Christian way.

 

I believe in the power of thought/prayer/focus. I do believe in a higher being/energy. I believe that the function of positive psychology is prayer, and it better than a traditional understanding of Christian prayer.

[CyndiLJ]

Sounds like we should start a Marcus Borg Fan club ;-)

 

 

 

I would sign on, for sure! Our learning disabled 14 year old son wrote him a "fan letter" this year, explaining his struggles and challenges, and how moved he was by Marcus' teachings after watching the Living the Questions series at church. Marcus wrote him a wonderful personal letter back! Kenny met him a few weeks later at a speaking engagement, and Marcus took the time to visit with him, give him an autograph in one of his books, and allowed Kenny to have a couple pictures taken with him. It was such an incredible encouragement to our son, who is a budding theologian and extremely progressive in his beliefs. I loved reading Borg's works before, but now I think he is a special human being as well!

[Dicentra]

Sometimes I feel that the only reasons I have for still clinging to a vestige of Christian faith are fear (What if it's all true and I don't believe??? I'd rather not burn in h-e-double-hockey-sticks for all eternity..) and guilt (for questioning, for not giving my child the security of a "hard-and-fast" spiritual belief system). Should fear and guilt really be the motivators for sticking with a particular belief system? And, if not, how does one overcome them?

[CyndiLJ]

So I'll jump in, and am thrilled with this thread/group and hope to find some new friends who I can really relate to! I was raised in a non-religious home, believed on my own in the existence of God, and when I was in my late teens found my way to a fundamental Baptist church. Stayed there for about 4 years until I realized it just wasn't right for me at all, and I guessed I wasn't really Christian because I absolutely couldn't believe in a literal understanding of the Bible. It was like I was being asked to check my brain at the door, and I finally decided it wasn't worth it if I had to pretend to believe. I gave up and yet couldn't quite let go of Jesus. I felt more disconnected from God while at the church than I ever had before or after. I didn't attend church for another 15 years because I couldn't figure out what I was or what I really believed that would fit anywhere.

 

I yearned though...how I yearned for community! I knew what would never work, but I didn't know what would. I actually stumbled upon a UCC congregation after being invited by a friend who had no idea what I did or didn't believe. I had spent a couple years looking online at various denominations and their beliefs, hoping against hope that there was a place for me, but somehow I had never heard of UCC...probably because I didn't have the right terminology to search for. After being invited I looked UCC up online and my heart jumped a little. Gay rights was a huge issue for me, though I am no gay nor is anyone in my family. I really needed a place that was not going to tell me I had to believe anything that didn't make sense to me, that told me there was only one path to God (I could never believe that), and so much more.

 

It took me a little while to "get" UCC, because I kept expecting things to be laid out for me. It was almost too open, without as much framework as I might have been used to. I guess I was waiting for someone to tell me what to believe, even if that was exactly what I didn't want! Haha!

 

8 years later, it has been the biggest blessing to belong to this denomination, and I eventually sorted it all out. Of course, I actually went through a bit of a purging period, where I was really, really angry at being told that what I believed was not "Christian".

 

I am more Unitarian than some are, but I completely identify with Jesus' teachings. I have gone on to complete lay minister training, have preached several times at various local small churches, etc. I have read and study most of what has been mentioned above in prior posts, along with several others. I am wholly progressive, and my heart breaks for those like myself who haven't found their faith community because someone else told them they weren't "Christian enough".

 

Because homeschoolers tend to be of a different ilk religiously speaking, I have found no homeschooler friends that understand where I am coming from. Maybe if this group solidifies, it will lead to friendships which would really help me in my homeschooling journey.

 

Long post, sorry about that!

[CyndiLJ]

Oh, because of the various other posts here, I thought it might be interesting to share that our congregation of the UCC is currently in discernment about the possibility of sharing space with an Episcopal congregation AND a Quaker congregation all under one roof...oh yea, and maybe some Buddhists as well. I SO hope we end up doing this, as I see great things springing from it if we did!

[Laura Corin]

The third is my son, who seemingly joined us earthside with an enduring faith. We obviously haven't raised him in any religion or church, but he has always talked of God and prayed like an old soul. Where does that come from?! His sister is the skeptic and has asked him, "Why do you believe this stuff? How do you know it's true?" He'll answer simply with, "I just know it." That. I want that.

 

There has been some research - I'm sorry, I don't have good links - that ability to be sure about god may be genetically determined. I don't know how solid the evidence is. Does he have grandparents or other relatives who have that strong faith?

 

Laura

[Pawz4me]

My brain isn't sufficiently together to add anything substantive to this thread right now, but I have "liked" a lot of things already posted.

 

Thanks to the OP for starting this group!

[Onceuponatime]

To those who have issues with Paul, I strongly recommend reading Borg's book The First Paul. Basically, he goes over why many scholars believe that not all the books of the Bible attributed to him were actually written by him. He compares the theology of the different epistles and shows how they can be broken down into three types, the first Paul being the most authentic.

 

 

My story:

 

I cannot remember a time when I did not believe in God. When I was ten, a lady I babysat for gave me an old King James Bible. I read it studiously and paid attention to any religious information that I could get my hands on. My father was a seeker, so for a long time we bounced around from denomination to denomination. We landed at the church of Christ when I was about 11. My mother was worried about my salvation so she pressured me to be baptized at 13. I did, but I thought I was going to hell because I hadn't made the decision myself.

I finally was rebaptized at 18 and felt a great sense of relief because I had done things right. I married a member of the church of Christ and it is the only kind of church my children are familiar with.

 

Doing things right has consumed me for a long time. I'm sure it's part of my personality. I have wanted to believe the right way and live the right way. I've spent inordinate amounts of energy to that end. This was fed by the culture of the churches we attended. I lived with a lot of guilt and fear. This is one reasons that I have read and studied so much. Then about 13 years ago I had a physical and spiritual breakdown brought on by an avalanche of life events. I experienced a kind of revelation about myself and God through those trials. I became more open to exploring different aspects of religion and spirituality.

 

I had always noticed discrepancies in some teachings and practices of Christianity. It has always pained me to hear other Christians recite by rote things that are supposedly scriptural or historical, but have no basis in scripture or real history. I couldn't wholeheartedly embrace many teachings and I would not proselytize. Even though I was consumed with being right, I was never ready to condemn anyone, partly because I couldn't say I was 100% right.

 

Then I started coming to these forums (I was here years ago, stopped for a short while then came back). The ladies here were diverse and open about what they believed and did not believe. I began to read and study even more. Gradually, I experienced what I will call a shift of consciousness. My understanding of the Bible, religion, and life changed. The need to be right dissolved. I no longer live with fear of judgement or hell. I am now willing to consider many points of view and wrestle with different philosophies. I take what works for me, and discard what doesn't.

 

I still go to church with my family and am really in the closet about my "liberal" theology. I spend a lot of time considering carefully how to say things when I participate in religious discussions. I don't get much education out of attending services. Our minister recently gave a talk about how the church is about spreading the faith not about providing a social support place for its members. I cannot agree with that at all. In fact, I didn't say anything but it is obvious that our members do not take that message to heart. There is a lot of "social support" going on and very little evangelizing. That's ok with me. :-)

[sparrow]

There has been some research - I'm sorry, I don't have good links - that ability to be sure about god may be genetically determined. I don't know how solid the evidence is. Does he have grandparents or other relatives who have that strong faith?

 

Laura

 

 

Interesting. I actually don't know if he has biological relatives with strong faith. He was adopted from South Korea, which makes it seem less likely, though certainly possible.

 

I would definitely be interested in reading more about this, if you happen upon the research again.

[Halcyon]

Dont have time to read this thread right now, but writing to subscribe. Will come back later and write my own thoughts.

[Laura Corin]

Interesting. I actually don't know if he has biological relatives with strong faith. He was adopted from South Korea, which makes it seem less likely, though certainly possible.

 

I would definitely be interested in reading more about this, if you happen upon the research again.

 

This is one blog, reporting a twin study. I don't know anything about the background of the blog, however.

 

There's a fairly strong religious tradition in South Korea: according to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, more than half the population in 2005 professed some form of religion.

 

Laura

[Guest]

Interesting. I actually don't know if he has biological relatives with strong faith. He was adopted from South Korea, which makes it seem less likely, though certainly possible.

 

I would definitely be interested in reading more about this, if you happen upon the research again.

 

I've heard of this. They nicknamed it "the God gene." Something about believers having a particular gene pattern that non-believers don't have (in those studies). Of course, "believers" and "non-believers" being put in a very broad category of having faith in *something* supernatural.

[Guest]

I hope to get my thoughts better organized at some point, but here I am :001_smile: .

 

I think I identify as agnostic currently, but I'm typically always seeking, in a superficial way. As I stated in the previous thread, I struggle with the reason I have of sliver a faith left. Is it because I have it in my history or is there *something* else pushing me that way?

 

There are three men (well, actually two and a half men :D ) that really challenge my thoughts on religion. First, my dh is the kindest, most moral person I know, and he identifies as agnostic. He is supportive of any path I dabble in, and will even join me for services. The second man is the husband of a dear friend. He's a lot like my husband, but identifies as Christian. He's just a really good man and strongly believes the teachings of Jesus. The third is my son, who seemingly joined us earthside with an enduring faith. We obviously haven't raised him in any religion or church, but he has always talked of God and prayed like an old soul. Where does that come from?! His sister is the skeptic and has asked him, "Why do you believe this stuff? How do you know it's true?" He'll answer simply with, "I just know it." That. I want that.

 

So, just before Christmas, I got stuck in the parking lot at the grocery store listening to an episode of This American Life (Heretics). It was about Rev. Carlton Pearson and his conversion to a Gospel of Inclusion. I was intrigued. I've been soooo sick since then, I haven't researched much further, so y'all could tell me he's a total loser, but I *really* liked what he had to say. It kind of got me thinking about things, yet again. I come from an evangelical background, so the things I heard Rev. Peterson say really resonated with me.

 

So, that's briefly where I'm at right now. There's a LOT more to my story, that's rife with shame and guilt. Things I didn't want to expose my kids to, by taking them to church, but I have guilt for not doing that, too :glare: .

 

 

Your first bolded point: I think about this, too. I disbelieve so much of the faith elements I was brought up to believe, but God still resonates with me. There is even a part where I am tender-hearted towards Jesus. There are songs that touch me deeply in the element that there is a God who is worthy of my worship. Like in the song, "Oh Holy Night" as sung by John Berry - when he sings, "...fall on your knees, oh hear the angels voices, oh night Divine, oh night when Christ was born..." I could weep. There's a beauty there that touches me deeply. I've had some experiences where I felt what I can only describe as Divine Love and those touchpoints in my memory make me still want God and faith.

 

Your second bolded part: was your dh brought up with a faith? What I've seen anecdotally is agnostics or atheists whom I admire were brought up in a faith, which they left as an adult. And other people I admire do have a faith that they actively pursue. I have not met an atheist/agnostic who was raised that way whom I admire (not to say they couldn't possibly exist, just that I have not met one). I think there is a positive shaping for children when they grow up with a faith. There is a stability and certainty that I think would be harder to come by if their parents had no conclusive beliefs they could grasp. This belief of mine is part of the reason I want my children to grow up with Christianity, even though I have come to disbelieve a lot of the tenets of the faith myself.

 

Lastly, I have witnessed people totally transformed by becoming a Christian (not to say that doesn't happen with other faiths as well). There is certainly something in that. My nephew became a Christian this past year and he is truly "a new creation." He radiates love and peace, though he is dealing with a lot of fall out from his previous bad choices. In that respect, I am so happy he has found *something* that has turned his life around so dramatically. I wouldn't care if he had become a Buddhist or a Muslim or whatever, but just to see him so changed is beautiful. I have seen that with other people as well and it is - well, there is something in that.

[Bensmom]

I don't have much time this morning, but wanted to join in the discussion. Dh and I were raised in the same fundamentalist denomination and found our way to Progressive Christianity a few years ago. Our greatest challenges are finding like-minded believers and teaching our son. We attend a more liberal Disciples of Christ church, but not everyone there shares our beliefs. Too often our son is taught things in Sunday School, in conversations with his friends, and by his grandparents, that are very contrary to what we believe. I know ultimately our children have to choose their own path, but I wonder if all the mixed messages are confusing.

 

Jenny, thanks for starting the discussion. I look forward to reading more responses.

[Laurie4b]

I dont know anything about jefferson, but there's an interesting thought...does your "progressiveness" mean you don't believe in any supernatural component in the bible? Hmmm, I'll have to think on this one. My first reaction is that I'm okay with some supernatural but there is a line for me....I mean burning bush, I'd say metaphor. Feeding 5000, I like thinking that's true. So maybe it's just about how emotionally attached I am to the supernatural event.

 

 

Ditto for me.

 

I know someone personally who saw a burning bush phenomenon. I trust the person.

[Mergath]

 

Your second bolded part: was your dh brought up with a faith? What I've seen anecdotally is agnostics or atheists whom I admire were brought up in a faith, which they left as an adult. And other people I admire do have a faith that they actively pursue. I have not met an atheist/agnostic who was raised that way whom I admire (not to say they couldn't possibly exist, just that I have not met one). I think there is a positive shaping for children when they grow up with a faith. There is a stability and certainty that I think would be harder to come by if their parents had no conclusive beliefs they could grasp. This belief of mine is part of the reason I want my children to grow up with Christianity, even though I have come to disbelieve a lot of the tenets of the faith myself.

 

I have to say, I disagree strongly with this. I know quite a few people who were raised in agnostic-type households and are wonderful people, and many who were raised in religious families who are absolute monsters. And for those of us who raise our children to choose their own path, instead of raising them on a certain path, the old "religious households raise better people" argument is somewhat hurtful. :(

[MIch elle]

 

8 years later, it has been the biggest blessing to belong to this denomination, and I eventually sorted it all out. Of course, I actually went through a bit of a purging period, where I was really, really angry at being told that what I believed was not "Christian".

 

 

 

Cyndi, I'm SO happy that you found a HOME! Yes, you should be angry about not feeling "Christian enough."

 

I was raised Roman Catholic and was mad at that church for making the innocent little girl that I was feel like a dirty little sinner (K-8 Catholic school) for many years.

 

I love the Episcopal church. I was married Episcopal and am still Episcopal. We raised our sons as Episcopalians. My current church does several events/yr with the UCC and Federated Churches in our community. UCC and my Episcopal church did Election Day Communion together this year; it was my first time attending a UCC service (my rector gave the sermon).

 

You are the first person that I know that is familiar with "Living the Questions".

[Izzy]

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[Izzy]

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[Onceuponatime]

Me too. I was brought up to fear hell and that fear has never gone away. I think for me, the problem is with the narrow definition of who gets into heaven. The idea that you must believe in the trinity and you must be born again. And not everyone who says he is born again is actually born again. If you question too much or behave in a way not consistent with the church then you were never really a Christian to begin with. It's that needing to be Christian enough that has scared me all of my life.

 

 

 

 

 

I can't recommend Borg's book The Heart of Christianity enough times. He addresses the issue of faith in a way that is very encouraging. It was a great relief to me to be able to let go of the idea that I had to believe specific statements of faith. Progressive Christianity seems to place more emphasis on community and service than on believing in a certain way.

[Susan C.]

Hi all!

 

One of you mentioned taking the good with the bad (at a church). I really need help with this and would love some to expand on it, it is what keeps me from settling in a church. I have a hard time being comfortable disagreeing with a pastor (although I freely do so to myself). I do feel a drive to find out what is right, another post gave me food for thought as to why I do this. I can't tell when "taking the good with the bad" becomes "doesn't fit in needs to find somewhere else." I do realize that no one will agree with me 100%, and I wouldn't want that. What I really want is depth and to be challenged. I want to be around others that are actively trying to work out what they believe. I can't do the "check your brain in at the door" just agree with what is being said.

 

From the other thread, I locate myself somewhere in the middle, probably on the conservative side of progressive.

[Snow]

So much to think about and I wish I could type up an intelligent response to each one. I want to come back more tonight and talk about my experience with bending my beliefs to match doctrine. Its such a balance I think.

[MIch elle]

I hadn't realized the Episcopal church was so liberal. It looks like a few in this group are members? I'd love to know more about it. Maybe this would be a good fit for us. :)

 

 

The national Episcopal Church is leaning very liberal these days by going forward with gay Bishop Gene Robinson (NH) and approving gay marriage blessings in the church. But every local Episcopal Church is different. You need to find one that leans your way.

 

Many of the leaders of progressive Christianity are Episcopal: Marcus Borg, Matthew Fox, Diana Butler-Bass, John Shelby Spong and more. Some other progressive Christian leaders are UCC, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist and other demominations. See some of their short clips on YouTube "Living the Questions".

 

I hope you find a Christian home that works for you! Shop around.

[MIch elle]

I highly recommend Living the Questions dvds and book. Here's one great clip from the dvd series:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXtE7zmN5MM

 

 

 

 

 

"I'm not ashamed and I'm not afraid. What a blessing that is."

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm so enjoying reading everyone's comments and the discussion here. Thank you all so much for participating so thoughtfully and respectfully, for making me feel not crazy and not alone.

 

I was just browsing my Facebook and saw a post that reminded me of something else I meant to share here. My local NPR affiliate produces a radio show featuring religious leaders from three congregations discussing various issues and ideas. It sounds like the beginnning of a joke ("A minister, a rabbi and an iman walk into a radio station . . ."), but I really love the show. As far as I can tell, you can't download podcasts, but you can stream audio online: http://thethreewiseguys.com/

[Onceuponatime]

I highly recommend Living the Questions dvds and book. Here's one great clip from the dvd series:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXtE7zmN5MM

 

 

 

 

 

"I'm not ashamed and I'm not afraid. What a blessing that is."

 

Wow! How appropriate and timely! Thanks.

[Guest]

 

I have to say, I disagree strongly with this. I know quite a few people who were raised in agnostic-type households and are wonderful people, and many who were raised in religious families who are absolute monsters. And for those of us who raise our children to choose their own path, instead of raising them on a certain path, the old "religious households raise better people" argument is somewhat hurtful. :(

 

 

Please note that I did say "Not that they couldn't possibly exist, but I have not personally met one." I don't know many people who claim to be atheists or agnostics and I know even fewer who were raised that way from childhood. I fully accept that a person can be morally "good" without believing in any god(s) or faith system. What I don't know from experience is how one proposes to children that moral "goodness" is correct without having any spiritual moral law-giver.

 

Besides that, when I started raising children, I was a committed Evangelical. I would not want to introduce the instability of outlining for my kids all the things I once believed that I now don't. I think that would totally mess with their heads.

 

I have to agree with Mergath. Some of the people I admire most were raised Athiest or Agnostic. I have many Athiest friends, including my brother, who say one of the reasons they will never be Christian is because of the Christian belief that you need religion to be moral.

 

I'm sure there are some; I don't know any. I know few people who claim to be atheist or agnostic. The few who are outspoken about it are "angry atheists" - people who were raised in a faith and now reject it so vehemently, I can't say I admire them much.

 

You may not need religion to be moral. I accept that it could be so. But I also see that religion gives people an inner drive to be moral. Not every one, of course, but those for whom spirituality resonates deep within. They are also "good."

[elegantlion]

 

Please note that I did say "Not that they couldn't possibly exist, but I have not personally met one." I don't know many people who claim to be atheists or agnostics and I know even fewer who were raised that way from childhood. I fully accept that a person can be morally "good" without believing in any god(s) or faith system. What I don't know from experience is how one proposes to children that moral "goodness" is correct without having any spiritual moral law-giver.

 

Besides that, when I started raising children, I was a committed Evangelical. I would not want to introduce the instability of outlining for my kids all the things I once believed that I now don't. I think that would totally mess with their heads.

 

 

 

I'm sure there are some; I don't know any. I know few people who claim to be atheist or agnostic. The few who are outspoken about it are "angry atheists" - people who were raised in a faith and now reject it so vehemently, I can't say I admire them much.

 

You may not need religion to be moral. I accept that it could be so. But I also see that religion gives people an inner drive to be moral. Not every one, of course, but those for whom spirituality resonates deep within. They are also "good."

 

 

I used to not know many either, simply because I had been given the mindset that atheists were somehow out to pull you over to their side. I'll be honest, I know longer think that. From MY experience, some of the people who do good things simply out of the goodness of their heart in my life are atheists or agnostic. In the last few years, we've had some trying times. A majority of the people who have reached and helped my family personally without question are not christian.

 

Reading something like Meditations from Marcus Aurelius showed me morality is not simply a question for people of faith. And as I started to look outside that circle of religion=morality, I found a world of caring, loving people who do so simply because they are compassionate, moral humans.

 

I think your experience is part of the illusion that religion can try to sell (or it's become so ingrained it's habitual thinking). I hate to say this cliche statement, but once you see the light about it, it's everywhere. Look at secular charitable groups, they're more numerous than I can imagine.

 

In my own walk, stepping away from religion has forced me to confront my morality. Do I do good and not bad because I believe in good and evil, right and wrong? Or do I do good simply so I'll win brownie points with God or that I'll avoid get smote down by his hand. It really is a freeing perspective to see that people can be inherently good and ethical and moral and not express a belief in a deity at all.

[ktgrok]

Hi all!

 

One of you mentioned taking the good with the bad (at a church). I really need help with this and would love some to expand on it, it is what keeps me from settling in a church. I have a hard time being comfortable disagreeing with a pastor (although I freely do so to myself). I do feel a drive to find out what is right, another post gave me food for thought as to why I do this. I can't tell when "taking the good with the bad" becomes "doesn't fit in needs to find somewhere else." I do realize that no one will agree with me 100%, and I wouldn't want that. What I really want is depth and to be challenged. I want to be around others that are actively trying to work out what they believe. I can't do the "check your brain in at the door" just agree with what is being said.

 

From the other thread, I locate myself somewhere in the middle, probably on the conservative side of progressive.

 

 

I look at it this way. I'm happy being an American. I don't agree with everything our government does, by a long shot. But I don't skip off and emigrate to another country just because I disagree with some of the laws in the USA. Overall I'm happy with the country and have my culture here. It would take a lot to get me to leave.

 

Or, to paraphrase a quote from "Why I am a Catholic", I know the boat has holes in it (boat being church). I just think its the best boat with the fewest holes.

[Mergath]

 

Please note that I did say "Not that they couldn't possibly exist, but I have not personally met one." I don't know many people who claim to be atheists or agnostics and I know even fewer who were raised that way from childhood. I fully accept that a person can be morally "good" without believing in any god(s) or faith system. What I don't know from experience is how one proposes to children that moral "goodness" is correct without having any spiritual moral law-giver.

 

Besides that, when I started raising children, I was a committed Evangelical. I would not want to introduce the instability of outlining for my kids all the things I once believed that I now don't. I think that would totally mess with their heads.

 

 

 

I'm sure there are some; I don't know any. I know few people who claim to be atheist or agnostic. The few who are outspoken about it are "angry atheists" - people who were raised in a faith and now reject it so vehemently, I can't say I admire them much.

 

You may not need religion to be moral. I accept that it could be so. But I also see that religion gives people an inner drive to be moral. Not every one, of course, but those for whom spirituality resonates deep within. They are also "good."

 

Lol... so moral atheists/agnostics are out there, they're just really rare and hard to find. Like bigfoot. :p

 

It's quite easy, imo, to explain morality without religion to a child. You tell them to listen to their heart, because deep down, they'll know what's wrong and what's right. It's funny, I've heard so many people raised in very religious households say that they don't know how they could possibly tell right from wrong without the bible, and it just baffles me. I'm starting to think that being raised within that framework and always looking outside of oneself for guidance about morality drowns out the part of a person that innately knows right from wrong until they lose it for good.

 

That's one of the things that has always bugged me about organized religion, that it doesn't seem to be an inner drive to be good, but an outer one. People are good because they want to please God, or because they don't want to go to hell, or what have you. I don't think that God has a set of guidelines and rules, and I do what I think is right because I want to, because I love people and don't want to cause them pain and I want the world to be a good place.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

I look at it this way. I'm happy being an American. I don't agree with everything our government does, by a long shot. But I don't skip off and emigrate to another country just because I disagree with some of the laws in the USA. Overall I'm happy with the country and have my culture here. It would take a lot to get me to leave.

 

Or, to paraphrase a quote from "Why I am a Catholic", I know the boat has holes in it (boat being church). I just think its the best boat with the fewest holes.

 

That's how I handled the UUs for a long time. I used to say that, although it wasn't perfect, the UU church was like my family: It's home, where the people I love are, where I get most of my needs met. I had been a UU for pretty much all of my adult life, raised my kids there, etc.

 

But in the last couple of years, I've felt a lot of those ties loosening. The church had been through four ministers in as many years. (Our long-settled minister retired, and we scheduled a two-year interim to allow for a search to replace her. The first interim minister left unexpectedly after only one year and was replaced with a second. Then, the new settled minister came on board.) I've never really warmed up to the new minister, and we had a serious difference of opinion about RE that left me feeling very disconnected. I resigned from the teaching and committee positions I'd held, which meant I had no particular reason to go to the education wing and run into friends. I couldn't really work up the energy to volunteer for or get involved in any other aspect of the church. I found the sermons tedious . . .

 

Over the course of a couple of years, I just quit being able to think of any reason to go.

 

And I think the difference, for me, between my country and my church is that I don't have to uproot my whole life to drive to a different building on Sunday morning.

[Guest]

 

I used to not know many either, simply because I had been given the mindset that atheists were somehow out to pull you over to their side. I'll be honest, I know longer think that. From MY experience, some of the people who do good things simply out of the goodness of their heart in my life are atheists or agnostic. In the last few years, we've had some trying times. A majority of the people who have reached and helped my family personally without question are not christian.

 

I don't think that at all, but my life is circumscribed around Christianity. The people I spend time with are mostly people I know from a Christian structure (i.e., a Christian co-op, my church) or from a secular structure, but who are also Christians (i.e, a Mom's group I was once a part of). My family of origin is Christian. The family I married into is also. There is variation on how devout the different people are, but 99% of these people, if asked, would self-identify as Christian. I suppose if I joined other non-Christian groups, I would then know more moral atheists, but I have no need for more social groups; I barely have time for those I'm a member of now.

 

Reading something like Meditations from Marcus Aurelius showed me morality is not simply a question for people of faith. And as I started to look outside that circle of religion=morality, I found a world of caring, loving people who do so simply because they are compassionate, moral humans.

 

I think your experience is part of the illusion that religion can try to sell (or it's become so ingrained it's habitual thinking). I hate to say this cliche statement, but once you see the light about it, it's everywhere. Look at secular charitable groups, they're more numerous than I can imagine.

 

In my own walk, stepping away from religion has forced me to confront my morality. Do I do good and not bad because I believe in good and evil, right and wrong? Or do I do good simply so I'll win brownie points with God or that I'll avoid get smote down by his hand. It really is a freeing perspective to see that people can be inherently good and ethical and moral and not express a belief in a deity at all.

 

I definitely embrace doing good and not bad because I believe in good and evil, right and wrong and I want to do what is good and right. Winning browning points or being smote down are not part of my motivation at all. It's one of the views I reject about Christianity - such as "rewards in Heaven" or "Cursed is he who..." For me, though, it's feeling a connection to the spiritual world that I believe motivates my desire to choose good in the first place. I like the way Wayne Dyer describes "God" (not Christian God) in some of his books, notably the book The Power of Intention. (i think that's the one.) So, meditation in his view connects one with the Divine, which makes those godly attributes more probable in the disciple's life. I agree with this; I have experienced this.

 

Also, what I wonder about is how that develops in children who do not have a faith framework. What would move them to want "godliness" if they are told there is no God, or maybe there is but they can figure that out for themselves if they want to bother? What motive is there to choose selflessness, compassion, empathy and philanthopy? See, when you have an adult who grew up with a faith system and who later moved out of the faith system, but still desires to be "good," there's no mystery to me. They already embraced being "good" as they were growing up; they identify with wanting to be a good person. But what would motivate a child to want to be a good person if they identify with no spiritual realm? Shouldn't they just do whatever seems the most fun, comfortable and pleasant?

 

I also still see "Exhibit A" - people like my nephew who are transformed totally by embracing a faith system. The choices he made before appear based pretty much on what seemed like fun at a given time, with little consideration for whether it would be good for others around him or not. But however it happened, now he has God in his life and now he cares about others very much and can put off what might seem fun for himself for a greater philanthropic purpose. Embracing religion made him morally good. I'm not saying it couldn't happen out of the blue without a faith system, but so far, I have not seen it. I have never personally known someone who had a messed-up, self-centered life who snapped into moral atheism and became a radiantly loving, objectively good person. Perhaps there are such people. I have not witnessed it myself.

[Guest]

Lol... so moral atheists/agnostics are out there, they're just really rare and hard to find. Like bigfoot. :p

 

It's quite easy, imo, to explain morality without religion to a child. You tell them to listen to their heart, because deep down, they'll know what's wrong and what's right. It's funny, I've heard so many people raised in very religious households say that they don't know how they could possibly tell right from wrong without the bible, and it just baffles me. I'm starting to think that being raised within that framework and always looking outside of oneself for guidance about morality drowns out the part of a person that innately knows right from wrong until they lose it for good.

 

That's one of the things that has always bugged me about organized religion, that it doesn't seem to be an inner drive to be good, but an outer one. People are good because they want to please God, or because they don't want to go to hell, or what have you. I don't think that God has a set of guidelines and rules, and I do what I think is right because I want to, because I love people and don't want to cause them pain and I want the world to be a good place.

 

I didn't say they were rare, just that I don't know many. There are millionaires, but I don't know a lot of them in my little corner of the country. ;)

 

With the "listening to your heart" - for me, the immediate thought is where does that come from? Why does your "heart" tell you what is right? To me, it's because we are also spiritual beings.

 

I don't look to the bible to determine right from wrong; I think a fair amount of what's in the bible is wrong. ;) Some pretty ugly scenes have been justified to people because it's in the bible.

 

I reject the outer drive to be good that you speak of. See my reply to Elegant Lion. To me, loving others is a spiritually motivated thing and if you have that, goodness follows.

[Joanne]

. But I also see that religion gives people an inner drive to be moral. Not every one, of course, but those for whom spirituality resonates deep within. They are also "good."

 

 

 

See, my observation is that religion gives people an OUTER/external need to be moral. Spirituality or a set of discovered life principles may give an inner drive to be moral.

 

What religion may do is to define morality for others.

[elegantlion]

I

I also still see "Exhibit A" - people like my nephew who are transformed totally by embracing a faith system. The choices he made before appear based pretty much on what seemed like fun at a given time, with little consideration for whether it would be good for others around him or not. But however it happened, now he has God in his life and now he cares about others very much and can put off what might seem fun for himself for a greater philanthropic purpose. Embracing religion made him morally good. I'm not saying it couldn't happen out of the blue without a faith system, but so far, I have not seen it. I have never personally known someone who had a messed-up, self-centered life who snapped into moral atheism and became a radiantly loving, objectively good person. Perhaps there are such people. I have not witnessed it myself.

 

 

I see the bolded as very different from someone who grows up with a moral framework (outside of religion) and is a good person their whole lives.

 

I've seen people transformed by faith, and I've also seen people transformed when they finally find a purpose.

 

Please don't think I'm picking on you, because I realize you're prefacing this as your experience and this is dialogue, however, there are people on this board raising their children without a faith system who have an extremely high moral fiber and are passing that onto their children. Just as there are books on christian parenting, there are books on parenting period. The power of good vs evil is older than christianity.

 

When you do something that feel in your heart, the pull can come from looking that other person in the eye and seeing the connectiveness between us all. We are not in a race with each other, we are the human race and we're all in this together. Some might see that and view it through the perspective of God, others don't need to see God simply to do good to one another.

 

Love does not require a belief in God to act in love toward another person. My dog doesn't know God, but she knows love, she epitomizes the unconditional love to me in some ways. Strange rambling example.... sorry, 5th day of being ill.

[Izzy]

-

[Guest]

 

 

See, my observation is that religion gives people an OUTER/external need to be moral. Spirituality or a set of discovered life principles may give an inner drive to be moral.

 

What religion may do is to define morality for others.

 

 

Interesting. When I'm using the term "religion," I mean spirituality that is authentic. For me it's like this: Connection to the Divine creates an inner drive to be moral. For many or most, the connection to the divine happens through the practices of their religion.

 

People who use religion as an exterior ornament of morality aren't even on my radar screen. Those are fakes. They're probably not even all that "good" and maybe be downright despicable.

 

I see the bolded as very different from someone who grows up with a moral framework (outside of religion) and is a good person their whole lives.

 

Right, but I have no experience with people for whom that is true, so I can't speak to that. The nephew I'm referring to was not brought up with a faith; last I spoke to her about such topics, my sister said she's pretty much an atheist. Surely, she brought him up to "be good." But he was not too good until recently. Then he found God and now he's quite good and totally different. (He was a reasonably good young child, but not so much as a teen and young adult.)

 

I've seen people transformed by faith, and I've also seen people transformed when they finally find a purpose.

 

Please don't think I'm picking on you, because I realize you're prefacing this as your experience and this is dialogue, however, there are people on this board raising their children without a faith system who have an extremely high moral fiber and are passing that onto their children. Just as there are books on christian parenting, there are books on parenting period. The power of good vs evil is older than christianity.

 

I'm not bothered by your posts at all. Certainly there are people on this board doing that; I'm sure. I don't know them, though, so I can't draw any conclusions from observation. This thread isn't "Discussing Atheism," so I wouldn't think it would be out of place in this thread to say I believe in God and the benefits of religion.

 

When you do something that feel in your heart, the pull can come from looking that other person in the eye and seeing the connectiveness between us all. We are not in a race with each other, we are the human race and we're all in this together. Some might see that and view it through the perspective of God, others don't need to see God simply to do good to one another.

 

Love does not require a belief in God to act in love toward another person. My dog doesn't know God, but she knows love, she epitomizes the unconditional love to me in some ways. Strange rambling example.... sorry, 5th day of being ill.

 

[Guest]

This confuses me on so many levels. My two nephews are being raised without God and they are awesome. My brother's family is probably one of the most loving, happy, and moral families I know. I could give many more examples but I don't feel it should be necessary for me to do so.

 

I know you don't mean to offend and there's no way to really understand how offensive these words are until you've walked away from organized religion for a while. It's also one of the reasons Christians walk away from their faith and why some athiests want no part of it.

 

Did you know there are Athiest pro-life groups? There are Athiests who travel to foreign countries to help just for the sake of helping and not to save the unsaved. Athiests who choose to adopt rather than have children just so they can save one more child. I think if you look around you'll see these people. You might end up seeing some of the awful things that Christians have done while using God and the bible to justify those things.

 

 

I don't think you're listening to me properly. :tongue_smilie:

[Rosie_0801]

 

How you are teaching christianity and/or world religions to your kids

 

 

I don't really belong in this group, but I can't help snooping on religious threads, so I saw this post. I'm currently writing a religious calendar curriculum and thought I should share the idea in case it was useful to anyone else.

 

Imagine a filing cabinet containing a folder for each day of the year. In each should be a brief blurb about who is celebrating what, how and why they are doing it, and possibly a picture book, small craft or letter from an observer.

 

I figure if we spend a few minutes on that each morning over the years, the kids should develop a connection and a sense of the humanness of it all, even though they can't be true participants in all of it. If they grow up like their mother, they won't be able to be a true participant in any of it, which makes it all the more important, I think. It won't cover everything I think ought to be taught about any religion, but I think it can make these things real without trespassing, if that makes sense.

 

 

Also wanted to recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Hunger-Integrating-Ritual-Daily/dp/1844095606 to anyone who hasn't seen it before.

[Rosie_0801]

Or is it just "my-own-version-of-whatever-I-think-spirituality-should-be-for-me-and-I-get-to-make-up-my-own-rules"? ;) Somehow, for me, that sort of feels like taking the easy way out. If I don't have a faith community to be accountable to, it feels like I'm just cruising the aisles of some sort of "spititual grocery store" and I'm picking and choosing all the things I like from different faiths and leaving behind the things I don't like. In belonging to any faith, is there an element of taking the bad with the good that makes it... I don't know... Authentic, some how?

 

 

I do that. I call it DIY religion and think it a worthy path to take (which is not to say other paths aren't.) We home educate so we can tailor educations to our children. A DIY religion is tailoring your religion to the person you are most honour bound to be authentic to. That is not taking the easy way out.

 

For the time being, why not call yourself a Solitary Quaker?

[Onceuponatime]

 

I don't really belong in this group, but I can't help snooping on religious threads, so I saw this post. I'm currently writing a religious calendar curriculum and thought I should share the idea in case it was useful to anyone else.

 

Imagine a filing cabinet containing a folder for each day of the year. In each should be a brief blurb about who is celebrating what, how and why they are doing it, and possibly a picture book, small craft or letter from an observer.

 

I figure if we spend a few minutes on that each morning over the years, the kids should develop a connection and a sense of the humanness of it all, even though they can't be true participants in all of it. If they grow up like their mother, they won't be able to be a true participant in any of it, which makes it all the more important, I think. It won't cover everything I think ought to be taught about any religion, but I think it can make these things real without trespassing, if that makes sense.

 

 

Also wanted to recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/1844095606 to anyone who hasn't seen it before.

 

 

 

I like this idea. I might adapt it for our study of world religions next year. Thanks for sharing.

[Rosie_0801]

What I don't know from experience is how one proposes to children that moral "goodness" is correct without having any spiritual moral law-giver.

 

It's a lack of other options. A person striving for goodness and morality can't make a good case for badness or neutrality. :p

 

A faith framework doesn't have to involve religion. Virtually all babies are born with faith in their mothers and it takes donkey's years to destroy that.

 

People who use religion as an exterior ornament of morality aren't even on my radar screen. Those are fakes. They're probably not even all that "good" and maybe be downright despicable.

 

If someone needs glasses, a hearing aid, a walking frame or a deity in order to make a good effort at life, and they acquire them, they are doing the right thing, no?