Anybody emancipated their 18 yr old so he can afford the bill?

[Serenade]

If you did this, VERY, VERY few students from my area would be able to go anywhere and you'd be setting up major socioeconomic barriers based upon winning, or losing, the birth lottery. I'm sorry, but I really don't see where that is fair nor ideal for our society. We have talented academic kids in our school and they deserve the chance to go to colleges where they can get in IMO. There's no way most could afford it without financial aid either merit or need-based.

 

My point is that the fee for college should be the same, regardless of who is paying for it. If the government is paying for some kids, fine. If private scholarships are paying for some kids, fine. If some kids are working their way through school, fine. If parents are paying for their kids, fine. But the fee should be the same regardless of who pays the bill. Colleges shouldn't charge more just because they perceive that some parents may be able to pay more.

 

What is seems to me is that middle class kids are now being priced out of college. The lower income kids get government money, and the higher income kids don't have to worry about it. But the middle class, they're the ones who are screwed. They're the ones who have to scrounge and scrimp and take on heavy debt, and their parents, too. I think all kids should be emancipated at 18, or even make it 21. After that, they're on their own and their parents' income shouldn't come into play at all. Either they are adults or they're not. They shouldn't be considered adults for military enlistment and dependents for college. It is not logical.

[Serenade]

Some public universities had mandates to keep the tuition affordable to students which meant that the general taxpayer was subsidizing tuition. In recent years, costs are shifting to users, a trend that is not going away as states struggle with their budgets.

 

Now this makes sense. But it seems to me that university enrollments keep growing, regardless, or is that a fallacy?

 

One of the ways this has played out in my state is in the reduction of what I consider "real" faculty at community colleges. Most CC instructors are adjuncts with no benefits and minimal pay. Retirees may enjoy keeping a foot in the classroom, but it is hard for a young academic to raise a family on adjunct's per class pay. This is in part what keeps CC tuition low in many areas.

 

 

Jane, are you really in NC? (I know people's location changes but the user name stays the same!) If you don't want to say, I understand.

 

I'm in NC, and I was hoping for my sons to be able to take some classes via dual enrollment, but NC has also really cut back on what courses high school kids can take.

 

I'm a graduate of UNC-CH, and I think I can't even dream of my kids getting in there. I had good grades in high school, although I wasn't at the tippy top for sure. UNC was the only school I applied to, and I was pretty much assured I'd get a place there. I don't think that's the case for anyone today. FWIW, I attended 1981-1985, so a long, long time ago. I think this is one of the drawbacks to being older parents -- times have changed so much in how this whole college thing plays out, and it is so dang overwhelming for me to think about it, because it was so simple back when I attended college, even when I attended grad school in 1989. I handled it all on my own, with a few thousand from my parents, and I was even an out of state student for grad school in SC.

[creekland]

My point is that the fee for college should be the same, regardless of who is paying for it. If the government is paying for some kids, fine. If private scholarships are paying for some kids, fine. If some kids are working their way through school, fine. If parents are paying for their kids, fine. But the fee should be the same regardless of who pays the bill. Colleges shouldn't charge more just because they perceive that some parents may be able to pay more.

 

 

Maybe I can understand that argument for state schools, but private schools should be able to do what they want and when they want to be able to subsidize either higher natural talent (via scores or portfolios or experiences, etc) or lower financial ability to pay, they should be able to do so IMO. Everyone always has the choice to attend or go elsewhere.

 

Honestly, I think even state schools should be able to do that.

 

For some, merit aid opens opportunities that would otherwise not be there. For others, need-based aid opens opportunities. Some schools offer more of the former and some offer more of the latter. There are even a few schools that cost less (to all) and provide less aid. There's quite a variety out there to choose from, and if one is in the position where they care about the finances, one should look around carefully to find the best school for the student at the best price. It may not be the "best" school. It may not be the "best" price. It should be the combo of the two.

 

Some schools offer sports scholarships for talented athletes. Others do not. I have no problem with the same happening with academics (esp since I think college should be MORE about the academics than the sports - though the talented athlete may disagree ;) ).

[creekland]

You know, I just re-read my post, and I wanted to apologize to Creekland. My tone could really be interpreted as super stinky; I'm sorry - I didn't mean it. I hope I haven't offended you, Creekland. If so, please accept my apology. I'm sorry.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

I meant to add this a bit ago, but it slipped my aging brain...

 

No harm done and no apology needed. You've brought up good points for others to consider and I definitely understand your frustration. One of middle son's potential top choice schools was instantly dumped the minute their financial aid package arrived (Furman). He got a merit aid award from them, but then they wanted us to take on 30K+ in parent loans AND he would have student loans. Sorry. No school is worth that IMO, and as I mentioned before, we wouldn't qualify for the loans even if we had wanted to take them on.

 

It worked out ok. I think this son is better off at a Research U than at an LAC anyway. He'd have done well at either place, but he has more opportunities where he is at now. And if his Research U hadn't wanted him, he'd have been at one of his state school safeties. I know he'd have done well there too.

 

I'm still concerned with paying for youngest's college in another year and a half. Time will tell how that turns out. In the meantime, I'm sharing it all with him and he knows if we don't get enough $$, his choices will be limited. I'm hoping that inspires him to study more for the ACT or SAT, but it hasn't so far. If he's not willing to put forth the effort (and choose wisely) he just may not be destined for college right away. I'm not naive.

[Serenade]

Maybe I can understand that argument for state schools, but private schools should be able to do what they want and when they want to be able to subsidize either higher natural talent (via scores or portfolios or experiences, etc) or lower financial ability to pay, they should be able to do so IMO. Everyone always has the choice to attend or go elsewhere.

 

Honestly, I think even state schools should be able to do that.

 

For some, merit aid opens opportunities that would otherwise not be there. For others, need-based aid opens opportunities. Some schools offer more of the former and some offer more of the latter. There are even a few schools that cost less (to all) and provide less aid. There's quite a variety out there to choose from, and if one is in the position where they care about the finances, one should look around carefully to find the best school for the student at the best price. It may not be the "best" school. It may not be the "best" price. It should be the combo of the two.

 

Some schools offer sports scholarships for talented athletes. Others do not. I have no problem with the same happening with academics (esp since I think college should be MORE about the academics than the sports - though the talented athlete may disagree ;) ).

 

See, I think the pricing should be the same, just like at the grocery store, at Target, or even in the housing market. Stores don't charge rich people twice as much for their milk, KWIM? When a house is listed, realtors aren't supposed to raise the price to discourage demographics they don't want. The price is the price, regardless of how it is paid for. I think discriminatory pricing for higher education should be no different than discriminatory pricing for housing or at the grocery store.

[Storm Bay]

This would never happen in a million years. If we can't pay for it, the kid will have to find a way to make it happen. How stupid to burden parents with debt who are at least close to middle age, or , in our case...much further along.

Merit aid! This is where a focused pursuit of merit aid is well worthwhile. Colleges are giving out much more merit aid than they used to -- and kids who are aware and focused can dramatically lower the cost college college.

 

We're going through this now with our eldest, however, she as already been offered varying amounts of financial aid. So far, it's not enough, but there are a couple of schools to go an FAFSa to complete soon.

 

However, I think that teens need to be realistic with their goals and expectations if they don't want large debt. There's no way we'll be able to afford what they tell us to pay if what people tell is is correct, and so we won't pay it, because we're too old to be taking on that kind of debt on top of our mortgage, too. Teens can go part time and work their way through, taking more years to complete their degree. One of the state univs in driving distance says that many of their students take 6 or more years to complete their degrees. I was speaking to the father of a high ranking senior from another town (they don't homeschool at all) whose friend's son graduated from Harvard last year and is still unemployed. There is no guarantee of a job regardless of what school you attend, or getting a lot of money. I know of other Ivy, etc, grads who eke out livings.

 

While dd has been accepted to a private college, their merit scholarship offer (the largest regular appliation based one) covers slightly less than half the cost, bringing it down to the same as the most expensive sticker price of the state schools she applied to.

 

There is also the option of community college, even though in our house that is our last choice.

[Barbara H]

My post disappeared... . We don't actually all pay the same price for all consumer goods. Think about the passengers on a plane. They've paid wildly different fares based on when and how they booked, how much leg room they want, if they are getting points back on their credit cards, etc. The airline needs to fill the seats of the plane and they take a variety of approaches to do that.

 

Also, what surprises many people is that one of the biggest beneficiaries of sticker price discounts in the form of merit scholarships are middle and upper class students who receive merit scholarships particularly from small liberal arts colleges. At many of these schools the merit offers aren't just going to those tippy top students but in actuality to most students.

[Storm Bay]

Also, what surprises many people is that one of the biggest beneficiaries of sticker price discounts in the form of merit scholarships are middle and upper class students who receive merit scholarships particularly from small liberal arts colleges. At many of these schools the merit offers aren't just going to those tippy top students but in actuality to most students.

 

Why is that? One reason is likely because many times that merit aid merely brings the price down to that of a state school before a state school's merit aid. Dd received the largest application based scholarship at Elizabethtown College, but it merely brings the price down from $46K to $24K. She won't be giong unless she gets the STAMPS scholarship, which isn't likely as it only goes to 5 students. They have no idea what our income is or what class we're in as they've never met us in person.

 

There are some schools who give a lot of aid to most of their accepted students, but dd didn't apply to enough of those, partly because some of them were for women only, and some just didn't have much of a math department.

[Nan in Mass]

 

 

See, I think the pricing should be the same, just like at the grocery store, at Target, or even in the housing market. Stores don't charge rich people twice as much for their milk, KWIM? When a house is listed, realtors aren't supposed to raise the price to discourage demographics they don't want. The price is the price, regardless of how it is paid for. I think discriminatory pricing for higher education should be no different than discriminatory pricing for housing or at the grocery store.

 

I see what you are saying, but a college education and a house and a gallon of milk are different sorts of things. Some college educations appear to be more of a bargaining thing than we would like. I can choose to buy my milk at the nice little store that caters to rich people at twice the price, or I can buy it at the big, cheap supermarket. It isn't exactly the same thing, obviously. The rich store doesn't see me coming and price the milk to match me, exactly, but the rich store and the private college both see themselves as catering to wealthier clients and set their price accordingly. I can choose to send my son to a state school where the pricing is more transparent than at a private school, just as I can choose to buy my milk somewhere other than the rich store. Not that I don't totally, totally sympathize with your frustration... We land in the middle, too. Not rich enough to just pay, not poor enough for much need-based aid.

 

Nan

 

ETA - We've seen this coming a long time. We've been saving for college since we got married. It is expensive now, but private colleges were expensive when we went to college, too, shockingly expensive. There were many people in my fairly-wealthy suburb growing up who couldn't afford to go to college, or could only afford the state school. I think the big difference is the gap between the tuition and fees of a private college and those of a state college. That seems to have changed significantly. Good thing there are community colleges.

[Barbara H]

Why is that? One reason is likely because many times that merit aid merely brings the price down to that of a state school before a state school's merit aid. Dd received the largest application based scholarship at Elizabethtown College, but it merely brings the price down from $46K to $24K. She won't be giong unless she gets the STAMPS scholarship, which isn't likely as it only goes to 5 students. They have no idea what our income is or what class we're in as they've never met us in person.

 

There are some schools who give a lot of aid to most of their accepted students, but dd didn't apply to enough of those, partly because some of them were for women only, and some just didn't have much of a math department.

 

 

They do it because it helps them fill their goal which is to create the strongest (highest test scores, best grades) and most balanced class of students (with a variety of talents academic and extracurricular). They want to spend the dollars they have in the best way possible to get the students they want to get. Most people like to get a deal and very few people want to pay full price for a more expensive private school. So, often even for weak students there are some very small token scholarships because it gives parents something to talk about. They gave your daughter a lot of money because they can see she's a strong enough student to get solid offers elsewhere as well. The whole field of enrollment management, as it is called, is fascinating. Not to creep you out, but they actually probably know a fair amount about the demographics of your family based on your address.

[Barbara H]

And, the price of milk isn't really the price of milk because there is government involvement in the form of dairy subsidies. It is far from clear cut.

 

I agree though - it is crazy as a middle class person when you first see the sticker price of college. You have to stop and say something here just doesn't seem right.

[AngelBee]

I just have never understood why students don't sue over this. It sounds completely illegal to demand a grown adult must get the financial records of another grown adult to receive government assistance. Can you imagine the outcry if you couldn't get foodstamps until age 25 unless your parents disclosed their finances and were told they had to contribute a box of ramen every week first?

 

End mild futile rant at buacracy. :)

I have always wondered the same thing.

[creekland]

See, I think the pricing should be the same, just like at the grocery store, at Target, or even in the housing market. Stores don't charge rich people twice as much for their milk, KWIM? When a house is listed, realtors aren't supposed to raise the price to discourage demographics they don't want. The price is the price, regardless of how it is paid for. I think discriminatory pricing for higher education should be no different than discriminatory pricing for housing or at the grocery store.

 

 

Target accepts coupons from those who choose to use them. They also donate stuff to our local food banks, so some get some things from them for free. Many times one can pay more for the same item if they go to a different, more upscale, store. Sometimes they can buy the same item for less at a different store. There is no "one price" for all as suggested. Most people negotiate over the prices of houses and many realtors will try to get the most they can from a buyer - assessing the buyer to know what that top price might be. We've been on the buying and selling end of that.

 

All colleges list their prices (sticker price) - same as Target or house listings. They don't "up" those prices when someone applies, but they can come down. I don't see much of a difference.

[cathmom]

I think one way to help solve this issue would be to not have the colleges receive all of the loan money when the loan is taken. Perhaps there is a way to tie it to graduation rate or something. Currently colleges have no incentive to help, because they are paid when the loan is disbursed.

[Amy in KS]

I paid for my education. It took two years of tax returns where my parents didn't claim me as a dependent before they would consider me to be independent. It's hard to skirt that issue.

 

[Storm Bay]

They do it because it helps them fill their goal which is to create the strongest (highest test scores, best grades) and most balanced class of students (with a variety of talents academic and extracurricular). They want to spend the dollars they have in the best way possible to get the students they want to get. Most people like to get a deal and very few people want to pay full price for a more expensive private school. So, often even for weak students there are some very small token scholarships because it gives parents something to talk about. They gave your daughter a lot of money because they can see she's a strong enough student to get solid offers elsewhere as well. The whole field of enrollment management, as it is called, is fascinating. Not to creep you out, but they actually probably know a fair amount about the demographics of your family based on your address.

 

That doesn't surprise me. However, I live in a mixed neighbourhood in an affordable home--the developers would have had to pay an enormous fine if they didn't make 1/4 of the homes smaller & cheaper, so they probably don't really know we're single income, etc. I do know that they want students like dd because she's in the top 3 percent of her class & tested fairly well on her SATs plus had great letters of recommendation. It helps them look good to have a larger percentage of kids in the top 10 percent (or even higher) of their graduating classes. She also did well on her phone interview (which is good, because IRL she's quite awkward when nervous or uncomfortable).The phone interview was for the honours college, which she was later accepted to (after the intial acceptance.)

 

Harvard, OTOH, claims to give generous financial aid to accepted students from families below a certain income level, but I'm not sure how need-blind their admissions truly are.

 

Univ/College in the is very much a big business, and it is important to be well-informed, read all the fine print, etc. Also, don't pull out mid-year if you have been given large amounts of aid as you may well end up owing it back to them; I know someone that that happened to.

[TranquilMind]

'Serenade':

I guess so. I think colleges should charge the exact same fees to everyone, regardless of who is actually paying for it.

 

 

Totally agree. But they don't.

 

 

I'm still having a hard time understanding why tuition is so much more today than it was 30 years ago. Is it because colleges and universities have to allow so many to attend today that they wouldn't have in the past, people that are maybe not the brightest and the best, but who meet other sought after demographics? My mom has recently taught at a state university, and she said it was appalling how many students can barely communicate via speech and/or writing. Why? Is it because "everybody has to go to college," regardless of whether or not they are true college material?

 

You'd think this would bring the price down. But instead, since many if not most are subsidized, the rest pay through the nose.

 

 

All I can hope for is that we somehow have enough funds that we don't have to fill out the danged FAFSA. It is discrimination if I ever saw it. I'm not sure I could even get my DH to contribute the requested info, LOL, he is so adamantly opposed.

 

 

Me too. This is such a blatant infringement upon my privacy. I'm not going to their darn school and my kid only needs merit scholarships. Give them to her on her MERIT, not MY financial statement. We may not participate at all. Haven't decided yet.

 

 

I do like the suggestion someone posted above about having a grandparent make the student loan instead of the government. My FIL did this for my nephew, and it seemed like a good option all around. Hah! I wonder if colleges give a discount if one pays it all up front? Sigh. I'm sure not. As you said, it's all about the money and getting every last penny they can.

 

 

 

 

That's great, if you have trustworthy family, who will treat this like a sacred responsibility.

 

Unfortunately, family is the first to financially stick it to family, in many instances. This is why people are advised not to mix business and family, ever. So long as it is a gift, fine. Or a loan to a highly responsible party.

[idnib]

 

I'm still having a hard time understanding why tuition is so much more today than it was 30 years ago.

 

The market is being subsidized by private and government loans. Interest rates are very low, encouraging borrowing and allowing people to borrow higher amounts than they could qualify for at higher rates. Anytime you take a system and inject money into it the price of the good or service goes up. It makes it hard for people who are paying cash to keep up; the expectation is wealth or debt.

 

Same is true for the housing market: the low interest rates are propping up home values because people can qualify for more money. People who want to pay cash for property are being bested by borrowers.

 

:thumbdown:

[Barbara H]

The other issue in rising costs is that two of the biggest ticket costs for colleges have risen much faster than the rate of inflation. Those are the costs of health care (for employees) and the cost of energy (for heating all those big old buildings).

[Barbara H]

 

 

Harvard, OTOH, claims to give generous financial aid to accepted students from families below a certain income level, but I'm not sure how need-blind their admissions truly are.

 

 

 

Harvard really is need blind, but the number of truly need blind schools is very low. Also there is a reality that it is very difficult for very low income students to actually be academically competitive for admissions at the sorts of schools that profess to be need blind. In very rural areas of my state even the very best, most talented public school students are largely not going to have available the academic opportunities to develop into viable candidates for these schools. They may not have access to APs, academic extracurriculars, or even a calculus course in high school.

[Jane in NC]

Now this makes sense. But it seems to me that university enrollments keep growing, regardless, or is that a fallacy?

 

 

 

Jane, are you really in NC? (I know people's location changes but the user name stays the same!) If you don't want to say, I understand.

 

I'm in NC, and I was hoping for my sons to be able to take some classes via dual enrollment, but NC has also really cut back on what courses high school kids can take.

 

Yes I am really in NC. I also have experience as an instructor in both the UNC system and at one of the CCs.

[FaithManor]

 

Harvard really is need blind, but the number of truly need blind schools is very low. Also there is a reality that it is very difficult for very low income students to actually be academically competitive for admissions at the sorts of schools that profess to be need blind. In very rural areas of my state even the very best, most talented public school students are largely not going to have available the academic opportunities to develop into viable candidates for these schools. They may not have access to APs, academic extracurriculars, or even a calculus course in high school.

 

 

 

Absolutely true around here! As a matter of fact, most of the kids can't access enough to qualify for U of M, MSU, or MTU...very rare for kids in our neck of the woods to attend a tier 1 university at all. Most do not have the stats, coursework, or extracurriculars necessary to get into a good school and so if they choose to go at all it's either the readily recognized as atrocious local CC whose credits aren't any good anywhere else or "Crappy State U" down the road an hour and when I say "crappy", I'm being kind. Though technically a State U, good luck transferrring anywhere else if you need to because no one else wants to accept their credits.

 

It's really pretty sad. The kids who do end up at a good institution are generally the 4-H kids. Our program provides a huge array of opportunities - agriculture being only a small part - that lead to great experiences and recommendations plus scholarship awards. While the ones that are interested in agriculture, horticulture, or veterinary medicine often do go directly to MSU, many go to both U of M and MTU but also other great tier 1 uni's and many highly ranked LAC's. Unfortunately, only a small percentage of high schoolers in the county take advantage of these opportunities because their parents think 4-H is only about raising livestock despite how hard we work to get the word out. Another example of a stereotype that dies hard! The schools provide nothing but the standard sports - all class C and D schools so NO scouts, no scholarships tied to this and it is not a noteworthy accomplishment on college apps to say you played football all four years of high school at podunk school in the woods with the graduating class of 83 or what have you. It really doesn't help. The music has been cut to the bone so there isn't enough instruction for the kids to become accomplished on their instruments or in voice. Chess club funding cut. Debate team cut. Math and science teams cut including the robotics team which has done very well in years past. The only PS that had a TARC rocket team and has done so for eight years - with several excellent finishes in which kids won college scholarships - cut funding for that too and won't allow the students to fundraise on their own and keep going....NO sponsorship allowed. The official announcement was that the football team needed to fundraise for new uniforms and hitting up local businesses for donations to the rocket team might hurt the football team. Sigh....it's pandemic. AP's at all but one school have been cut for 2013. Only one district will offer a calculus class or a third year of a foreign language. Many will not even offer a fourth science option.

 

There is very little available for PS students in my county which would make them at all competitive to get into a tier one uni, much less an Ivy.

 

It's very, very frustrating to watch.

 

Faith

[Kareni]

Sorry this happened. I wanted to pass along a tip I got from my roofing company owner just a few months ago. He had THREE kids in college last year. He called up his daughter's top choice and said, "We can't do it, but she really wants to come to your school. You will need to increase her financial aid (not loans), or we will have to go with our other offer." They negotiated a bit. He told them sorry, they were going to have to go elsewhere." In a few hours, he got a return call, meeting his requests. He said it was like buying a car at a dealer and don't forget to negotiate hard.

 

 

When my (now a college senior) daughter was applying to colleges, she requested additional funding from her first choice college and provided them with a copy of another college's more generous financial aid offer. The other offer had about $3,000 more in grants. She did receive the requested amount in the form of a grant. It was a one year grant which was not renewed for her sophomore year. Food for thought.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Janice in NJ]

As far as the price of things.

 

If I clip a coupon, I get the reduced price. The coupon isn't worth more to me than the next guy.

 

Yes, we all go into the car dealership knowing that the price is not the price. We know it's the same with college. But the car dealer doesn't ask you for your tax returns. And the value of your house. And the rules are a lot simpler.

 

1. If you pay down your mortgage ahead of time so you owe less money on your house, you can afford to pay more for college.

 

2. If you put your money into a 401K or an IRA, you can't afford to pay more for college.

 

TRANSLATION: A simplified scenario: A IRA at the bank has a CD rate of 1/4%. Most great mortgages are now at 4%. If you owe $100,000 on your mortgage, you pay about $4,000 a year in interest. If at the same bank, you have an IRA balance of $100,000, you earn about $250 per year. In the simplest sense without a world where everything is sliced and sold: the bank is loaning you your own money and pocketing the $3,750 per year. IF you take YOUR money and pay off YOUR loan (Forget the tax issues here. Keeping this simple.), the college financial aid office now looks at your free-n-clear house as an asset - one that can be tapped at 5.6% per year. According to the rules, before the transaction, your IRA was off-limits. Now you can afford to pay $5,600 MORE PER YEAR FOR COLLEGE! If you have kids whose ages span eight years of college, that means that (ball-parking here for argument) you will pay $ 5,600 x 8 = $44,000+ more for college. If you leave the money where it is, you pay $ 3,750 x 8 = $30,000 more on your mortgage.

 

Just one scenario.

 

Um..... I've bought oodles of cars in my lifetime and enough gallons of milk to drown the cars, this is not the same thing. What I pay for a car is between me and the dealer at the time. The decisions I have made in prior years may affect my ability to come up with the money to buy the car I want, but they will not affect the price.

 

If you save money for college, on average the bill will be higher.

In that sense, they are all playing the same game: discourage frugal behavior and encourage behavior that increase the possibility that someone is going to be able to make some easy money. You can NOT get out from under college loan debt - even in bankruptcy.

 

Cath mom said this:

I think one way to help solve this issue would be to not have the colleges receive all of the loan money when the loan is taken. Perhaps there is a way to tie it to graduation rate or something. Currently colleges have no incentive to help, because they are paid when the loan is disbursed.

 

Check out the stats of different schools. If the school meets far less than 75% of need, you are going to see an almost parallel decrease in 4-year graduations rates. As the percentage of need met increases, you are going to see a rise in graduation rates.

 

One could argue that the schools that meet a higher percentage of need are attracting a smarter, harder-working class of people. That's why their graduation rates are so high.

 

But then we've all heard the stories about how the super-jock gets the free-ride to the ivy. Why is it that kid graduates in 4 years from a HARDER school, and the other kids from the same neighborhood who went to the same high school and got the same grades and test scores and went to the low-need-met school can't seem to graduate in under six years.

 

My guess: The 100% need-met school can't afford to have these kids bumping around the campus for more than the minimum. It's expensive. The money the college has (their own personal endowment) is going down for every year this kid is around. Switch to the 50% need-met school; most of that need-meeting money is coming from outside the school: public sources of grants and loans. How does that school meet budget? If the school (like our Jersey flag-ship) is graduating 53% of students in four years, what would happen if, all of a sudden, the kids found a way out in four? Ummmm... the school would no longer meet budget. You have to keep all of those kids wandering around and borrowing money in order to keep the place in the black. The profs at these schools have no strong incentive to make sure all the kids are passing and taking the right courses. Their job is retention, retention, retention. No doubt about it. (Read the literature.) You have to keep that carrot of a degree dangling in front of the students and the parents. (Don't get me wrong, these profs are GOOD people! It's the system that encourages this behavior. It must in order to survive.) If the system encouraged all profs to focus on the students to the point that the entire effort of the school was to support the undergrads, that would be a VERY expensive dose of help. Seriously. The system would no longer be able to afford the prof's salary.

 

It's a hypothesis - one that seems to be supported by the data. Seriously, spend some time tracking % need-met with graduation rates. It's a very uncomfortable exercise.

 

Barbara said this:

Not to creep you out, but they actually probably know a fair amount about the demographics of your family based on your address.

 

Oh my goodness, yes! They keep nailing it. We have yet to find a private that doesn't nail it. Yes, a creepy reality.

 

Tranquilmind, if your child receives a merit award, most colleges still require you to complete the FAFSA in order to get that award. Even if you are not applying for financial aid. You seem upset and very determined to stick to your principles. I applaud you, I do. Don't get too upset, and don't dig your heels in too forcefully. Speaking from experience, that can be painful. There is a lot of money changing hands with the current system. (Start listening and you'll hear about this a LOT!) The rules, even though a long list of them are not very egalitarian, are pretty water-tight.

 

Barbara: The other issue in rising costs is that two of the biggest ticket costs for colleges have risen much faster than the rate of inflation. Those are the costs of health care (for employees) and the cost of energy (for heating all those big old buildings).

Sorry, I'm not buying it. This is an issue for most businesses. You don't see costs of all goods and services rising at these rates. If you trace the legislation, you can see that the cost of college starts to outpace inflation around the same time that credit loosens. As soon as lenders are assured that people can't get out from under the loans in bankruptcy, people's ability to borrow goes up. That's when prices start to climb, quickly. (Think about the housing bubble. No ridiculously easy credit, no absurd increase in home prices.)

 

One more thing: Just so folks understand part of my frustration. I hear the argument here that says, "OK. So you can't afford the private school. There's always your in-state public even though it's not ideal. At least it's affordable."

 

Our in-state publics run $25-$31K per year. Yes, they can live at home. (I currently pay over $4,500 per year for car insurance with no accidents. Yes, they can commute, but it will cost a lot for a teen to be commuting to college at these rates. Tuition and fees are still sitting at $ 15,000/year.) Most of these schools have a 4-year graduate rate between 16 and 53%. Yes, that's a ONE and a SIX.

 

So, yes. It's a fall-back option. But one with its own set of problems. Oh - you ready for this? One of the big uses of state grant money? If you graduate in the top 15% of your high school class (regardless of the quality of your high school), you can go to community college for free and then transfer to the in-state public with a $7,000/year scholarship to finish up.

 

If you are homeschooled? If you TAKE courses at the CC - honors courses - as a high school student and score in the top 1% of students? (Note - the kids at the high school can take 'em for free. We pay the full rate.) If your test scores place you at the TOP of high school graduates in this state? If the state has never had to spend ONE RED CENT to get you there, guess what? NOPE! That scholarship option is not available to you. You don't qualify.

 

Have a good morning, folks. :-)

 

Peace,

Janice

[Jane in NC]

Janice, you know I love you. But I have a few nits to pick...

 

1. If you pay down your mortgage ahead of time so you owe less money on your house, you can afford to pay more for college.

 

Most schools will never ask parents about their home equity. I want to point this out to parents who have yet had a student apply to college. The FAFSA does not ask about home equity or the amount remaining on a mortgage. The CSS Profile (used by many of the competitive private colleges) does. Some schools that use the FAFSA only will ask parents to fill out a separate document with more information. This may or may not include information on home equity or retirement funds. That is school dependent.

 

 

But then we've all heard the stories about how the super-jock gets the free-ride to the ivy.

 

Not your point here but I do want to mention that Ivies do not give out athletic scholarships. Sorry to derail this thread, but athletic scholarships in general are another kettle of fish.

 

Back to the matter at hand...

 

Barbara: The other issue in rising costs is that two of the biggest ticket costs for colleges have risen much faster than the rate of inflation. Those are the costs of health care (for employees) and the cost of energy (for heating all those big old buildings).

Sorry, I'm not buying it. This is an issue for most businesses. You don't see costs of all goods and services rising at these rates. If you trace the legislation, you can see that the cost of college starts to outpace inflation around the same time that credit loosens. As soon as lenders are assured that people can't get out from under the loans in bankruptcy, people's ability to borrow goes up. That's when prices start to climb, quickly. (Think about the housing bubble. No ridiculously easy credit, no absurd increase in home prices.)

 

I think it was the NY Times that offered an interesting insight on college costs. Medical care and energy costs (this was before fracking) were rising, like college costs, at rates much higher than other goods or services. Certain technological costs were also included. Essentially the data showed that business costs were not rising as quickly because they were able to reduce costs via off shoring. Colleges, doctors and your water/electric utility do not, for the most part, do this. Essentially their comparison showed (not that this makes us feel any better) that the cost of college--while rising at a ridiculously high rate--was not rising more than other services utilizing skilled labor and/or the highly educated and that maintain employees, buildings, and production within the US.

 

One more thing: Just so folks understand part of my frustration. I hear the argument here that says, "OK. So you can't afford the private school. There's always your in-state public even though it's not ideal. At least it's affordable."

 

Our in-state publics run $25-$31K per year. Yes, they can live at home. (I currently pay over $4,500 per year for car insurance with no accidents. Yes, they can commute, but it will cost a lot for a teen to be commuting to college at these rates. Tuition and fees are still sitting at $ 15,000/year.) Most of these schools have a 4-year graduate rate between 16 and 53%. Yes, that's a ONE and a SIX.

 

So, yes. It's a fall-back option. But one with its own set of problems. Oh - you ready for this? One of the big uses of state grant money? If you graduate in the top 15% of your high school class (regardless of the quality of your high school), you can go to community college for free and then transfer to the in-state public with a $7,000/year scholarship to finish up.

 

If you are homeschooled? If you TAKE courses at the CC - honors courses - as a high school student and score in the top 1% of students? (Note - the kids at the high school can take 'em for free. We pay the full rate.) If your test scores place you at the TOP of high school graduates in this state? If the state has never had to spend ONE RED CENT to get you there, guess what? NOPE! That scholarship option is not available to you. You don't qualify.

 

That last frustration is heard loud and clear on this end, Janice. I have mentioned this often through the years since my own son would suffer academically were he forced to live at home and commute to the regional state uni which does not have his major. Further, our CC has a few good courses/instructors which my son exhausted in high school!

 

All should be in agreement that FAFSA discriminates against people who reside in high cost of living areas. Mine is higher than average, but we bought our house when real estate was highly undervalued. That said, our EFC is high in part because of other real estate we own. Inherit the old family vacation shack in the mountains or on a lake and your EFC reflects it.

 

I will stick to my mantra of save, save, save if college is part of your family culture. My son is a junior at a private LAC who has not taken on any debt at this point due to merit aid and our frugality.

 

ETA: I have been thinking about five year graduation rates. Looking at my nieces and nephews who are in college or who have finished college within the last decade, I see a mixed bag. I have a niece who graduated from a state uni with a double major in four years. She told us she was able to have a double major because of the gazillion AP credits she had. My nephew who played college hockey had to be in college for five years. There was no way he could do his student teaching while playing hockey. I have a nephew who finished a BFA in four at a state uni. And a niece who left college #1 after a year--bad fit. She essentially had to start all over again.

 

My son has said that people who know what they want to study can usually do a degree in four years at his college. In fact, his school, like some other LACs, sells the four year concept to parents, this at a time when some public universities are acknowledging that it is taking many students more than four to finish because of cut backs. But the four year plan does not always work since Life Happens. Some kids take a year to work. Some kids take a year off because of illness or parental illness. Some schools are just not the right fit. I wish we could see inside some of those retention statistics...

[Carol in Cal.]

Argh! What a racket!

 

(That is all.)

[Caroline]

My son has been accepted to a great state university with a large merit scholarship. It has a 4 year graduation rate of 32.5%. Why? Because a huge number of those kids co-op. And those co-op semesters don't count against the merit scholarship. The 5 year grad rate is near 75%. It's a tough school with few majors, so kids end up transferring. Engineering isn't for everyone, even if your dad and granddaddy went to school there. Anecdotal? Sure.

 

I think there are a lot of reasons schools have low four year grad rates, and most of them don't involve conspiracy theories. Co-oping is one. Students taking semesters off to earn money is another. Division 1 revenue athletes rarely graduate in four years, if they graduate at all. Students transferring.

 

My kid probably won't get out in four years because we will encourage him to co-op. We will encourage him to do research. We will support him all of the way, even if he loses his merit aid. (because I have listened to Jane's mantra of save, save, save)

[Janice in NJ]

Janice, you know I love you.

 

Right back at you, Jane. I couldn't have done any of this high school/college stuff without a handful of folks. And you are on the short-list! :-)

 

Most schools will never ask parents about their home equity. I want to point this out to parents who have yet had a student apply to college. The FAFSA does not ask about home equity or the amount remaining on a mortgage. The CSS Profile (used by many of the competitive private colleges) does.

 

 

Yes, I am talking about the College Board form, not the FAFSA. (I remember the first time you told me about the form. Of course you had been trying to explain it for years. But I wasn't listening. Then I listened. And yes, I was quite surprised that I was expected to give a private company with computer servers stored heavens-knows-where THAT level of private, personal information. I was shocked actually. But when I discussed it with other parents, what shocked me even MORE was that my concerns were met with blank stares. No one else saw it as a problem. They just filled out the form. How does that happen? That's when I started to try to understand this whole thing more, and I discovered that very few steps in this process are questioned. The system just kind of channels everyone forward. AND it actively encourages people to do it with the least amount of information possible. The whole thing is just not that complicated. But there does seem to be quite a bit of effort being put forth to make it seem confusing. Just one more case of the Emperor's New Clothes I guess. For instance, nearly every parent I speak to knows some glowing admission stats about the colleges that have accepted their kids. But no one knows about graduation rates or crime rates or whether or not their kid is going to be taught by a prof or an adjunct or a graduate student. Thanks again to you, Jane, I have bookmarks to the gov sites on the reported stats *grin*. For some reason, they know all about what it takes to get into that school but very little about what is going to happen when their kid GOES there. I digress.) So, yes, I'm talking about the Profile Form. But that doesn't necessarily make it an easier pill to swallow. You educate the kid. They earn the scores. You pay heavily for the outside validation through expensive classes at accredited institutions. The kid gets great teacher reqs from tenured profs with 35+ years of experience. They gain admission to these schools. They earn big merit scholarships when the school has nothing to go by except the demographics from your town and the overhead google-map pic of your house....

 

But you can't afford to send them because THAT form says you have wealth that you can't use to pay for college. Nope. You can only borrow against it.

 

Not your point here but I do want to mention that Ivies do not give out athletic scholarships. Sorry to derail this thread, but athletic scholarships in general are another kettle of fish.

 

Of course. Not talking about an athletic scholarship. Think high-need student from an underprivileged area at a 100% need-met school. Especially a school that meets that students need with endowment $ rather than require the student to take loans. Those kids seem to graduate on time while their peers from a similar academic background flounder elsewhere.

 

I will stick to my mantra of save, save, save if college is part of your family culture.

 

I hear you, Jane. I do. But I have three, not one. You try to find a way to balance resources with three kids. The needs of the older kid shouldn't trump the needs of the younger and vice versa. A simple idea in contemplation. A VERY conflicting proposition in practice. I get it: save. A simple idea. Until you sit down and start aggressively mapping it out on paper. Oh my. It reminds me of listening to my college-students try to map out their calendar each semester. Three hours of work/credit hour. + commute. + job. + volunteer activities. They keep moving the blocks around on the screen but there aren't enough hours. They keep trying to guard ONE day a week; for some reason they think they should get one day off if they work hard the other six. *giggle* Anyway. The cries for "Help!" The moaning and the throwing up of the hands, "This is never going to work! This is impossible! Why is it that being a volunteer fireman is starting to look like a bad thing? That doesn't make sense? How can THAT be a problem?"

 

So, I hear you. Save. Until you start to map it out on paper. It's very easy to get very discouraged very fast!!!

 

I wish you lived next door. I could use a cup of coffee with a kind friend at this point in the process.

 

Peace to you,

Janice

 

ETA: In order for my kid to get an UNSUBSIDIZED fed loan - meaning she/he has to pay the interest starting on the day he gets the money, a loan that everyone is eligible for regardless of whether or not they have/earn any money. In order for my kid to get that loan, I have to fill out the FAFSA and send a copy of my tax return to the school. For their files. In a place where all of the work-study students who wander through that department have access to the files.

 

Can you tell I've peeled off enough layers of this onion to have a nice weep? ;-)

[creekland]

 

ETA: I have been thinking about five year graduation rates. ... I wish we could see inside some of those retention statistics...

 

My oldest is on track to graduate from his LAC in 4 years and this with only bringing 3 credits (one English class) in from cc. He only has to take an average of 13 hours per semester these last three semesters. This is freeing up time for him to work (in his field) to better set him up for a job. To be fair, he also took 18 hours some semesters earlier on, so the average would normally appear to be 15 hours where he goes. He also never failed anything and had an idea of what major he wanted coming in.

 

Middle will likely take 5 years, not because he can't fit it all in, but because he wants to double major and study abroad as well as getting a lot of extra stuff in for med school. Fortunately, his school offers a Take 5 option. These have to be approved, but many are, and if approved, one can study there (getting the double major) for that extra year tuition free. There will still be room & board and fees, but those aren't nearly as costly. If, for some reason, his plan wasn't approved, he could still graduate in 4 years without issue. Again, I don't anticipate him failing any courses. It helps with his college that they have only 1 core requirement class, so if he changes his mind on major, his classes will generally still count.

 

Hubby took 5 years (large state U). He changed his direction from Mechanical Engineering to Civil Engineering late in his junior year, so had no choice in order to get the higher level classes. This was a few moons ago.

 

I took 5 years. I got diagnosed with asthma the beginning of my senior year and took a year leave of absence to get medical issues worked out, then returned. Technically, I only had 4 years of "school," but calendar-wise, it was 5 years. I came in with Bio, English, and History AP credits. I also finished with Physics and Psychology as majors and Math as a minor (the math minor more or less came with the physics major).

 

Otherwise, again with other kids (from school), those who take 5 years or more to graduate tend to be those who purposely take time off as I did, those who change schools due to a bad fit, those who have a bad transition to start with (perhaps majoring in party or similar), or those who go to schools where they can't get the classes they need on time (generally state schools).

 

Then too, some completely drop out figuring out college isn't for them. Those who do this (and return) end up in lower level (academically) jobs around here, but perhaps that was the path they should have taken to start with. Some of these return to college later, but with better focus.

 

Then there are the (college) success stories. Even from our slightly lower than average public school we get doctors, engineers, artists, teachers, business consultants, and a plethora of areas. I see these each week in our local paper and see the students becoming successful adults around here. Successful kids come from all sorts of schools. They just did well at them and have the personal skills they need to go with the degree.

 

There's a range. So far I've only included those who started off in college - some opt for the military or working directly from school and end up successful. And, being truthful, in that whole range of life, I see some in the police blotter... though I've yet to see a college grad I know make it to the police blotter for anything major. Many who end up there also didn't graduate from high school, but some did. I've only been working for 13 years at school, so in time, who knows?

 

There's no guarantee in life. Everyone has to look at themselves, their options (including finances), their drive, their passion, and pick a path.

 

I really do feel for those where finances restrict options, but that happens for most of us with many aspects of life. We've been there with two fairly high stat students and it's worked out well. Soon we'll be there with a more average student. I'm not sure what path he'll end up on. Only time will tell. We're doing our best to research places that will be a good fit for him. They won't be "big name" places, but they will provide a degree (if he graduates).

 

The best advice I can give folks in a situation like ours is to investigate as much as you can.

[Wheres Toto]

My personal experience and what I saw getting my oldest into college definitely influences my theory about why the schools that don't provide a lot of assistance have lower 4 year graduation rates - you'll have more kids going part-time and working, or those who need to take some time off to work, or not take as many classes each semester so they can work, or not take the classes with higher fees when they should fit them in but instead have to wait until they have the extra dough (usually science classes which also have the highest textbook costs).

 

With a lot of degrees, IF you know what you want to do going in and don't change majors, IF you are able to take the maximum credits every semester, IF you don't have a minor or concentration - you can graduate in 4 years. Any of those don't happen, it's not so easy. In my research, the number one factor affecting 4 year graduation (outside of the financial) is changing majors. A LOT of kids change their major at least once.

[Jane in NC]

ETA: In order for my kid to get an UNSUBSIDIZED fed loan - meaning she/he has to pay the interest starting on the day he gets the money, a loan that everyone is eligible for regardless of whether or not they have/earn any money. In order for my kid to get that loan, I have to fill out the FAFSA and send a copy of my tax return to the school. For their files. In a place where all of the work-study students who wander through that department have access to the files.

 

Can you tell I've pealed off enough layers of this onion to have a nice weep? ;-)

 

Again, I hear ya!

 

Blew my mind that some schools wanted tax returns before giving the financial aid package! I phoned each of these and asked what their Document Retention and Destruction policy is. (Can you tell that I have served on the Board of Directors of non-profits? My forte is that of Policy Wonk.) Most hold on to those tax returns for more than a year given the rate of transfer after year one of college. Often the industrial shredders then come in to clean out the file cabinets. But what about electronic copies? Every parent should ask these questions!

[Janice in NJ]

Again, I hear ya!

 

Blew my mind that some schools wanted tax returns before giving the financial aid package! I phoned each of these and asked what their Document Retention and Destruction policy is. (Can you tell that I have served on the Board of Directors of non-profits? My forte is that of Policy Wonk.) Most hold on to those tax returns for more than a year given the rate of transfer after year one of college. Often the industrial shredders then come in to clean out the file cabinets. But what about electronic copies? Every parent should ask these questions!

 

 

Yes, but even then be prepared to be less than psyched about the answers.

 

And then you have to ask yourself if you are better or worse off because now you know what's going on. And you feel REALLY stupid for sending your tax form now that you KNOW that it's a bad idea to send it.

 

In this case knowledge isn't always power; at least the ignorant don't feel like chumps.

 

I remember sitting down with a FA officer at a private once. There were stacks of papers on her desk. She left the room. I found it really hard to believe that she left me sitting in there alone with other peoples' papers on the desk. But of course, that's not really her problem in the end. In the end, no one is responsible for anything other than what someone tells them they are responsible for.

 

Wait until you send in a form and it turns up missing. The person on the other end of the phone thinks the solution is for you to just send another copy. You can't get them interested in the idea that sending another copy isn't a problem; it's the LOST copy that poses a problem.

 

(I can't tell you how many people think the College Board is a government agency. But then again people think the Federal Reserve is a government agency too.)

 

Thanks for the commiseration this morning. Gotta get off my hind end and get something done this morning before I run out o' morning.....

[RootAnn]

All I can hope for is that we somehow have enough funds that we don't have to fill out the danged FAFSA. It is discrimination if I ever saw it. I'm not sure I could even get my DH to contribute the requested info, LOL, he is so adamantly opposed.

 

Me too. This is such a blatant infringement upon my privacy. I'm not going to their darn school and my kid only needs merit scholarships. Give them to her on her MERIT, not MY financial statement. We may not participate at all. Haven't decided yet.

 

 

So, here is the question -- can a kid get scholarships & attend a college without the parents filling out the FAFSA now? My parents refused to fill it out. Period. There were five of us kids & I'm the fourth. They didn't fill out the FAFSA ever. (Two went to college on full-rides & paid the fees/extras by part time jobs, one went full time military then to an Academy, two (oldest/youngest) went on pay-as-you-go with parents paying 50% of the total price in the end with no scholarships at all.) Is that even possible anymore? (From someone who doesn't want to give them a tax return either.)

 

Not to creep you out, but they actually probably know a fair amount about the demographics of your family based on your address.

 

 

I'd be surprised if they didn't run this type of information. They'd probably only be able to find town information (plus realtor info - which rightly would be extremely mixed) for our little place, if even that. There are both good & bad parts of living in PoDunk USA. My little town (and bland State) aren't big enough to show up on any cost of living calculators or "median income" stats lists.

[Dana]

Again, I hear ya!

 

Blew my mind that some schools wanted tax returns before giving the financial aid package! I phoned each of these and asked what their Document Retention and Destruction policy is. (Can you tell that I have served on the Board of Directors of non-profits? My forte is that of Policy Wonk.) Most hold on to those tax returns for more than a year given the rate of transfer after year one of college. Often the industrial shredders then come in to clean out the file cabinets. But what about electronic copies? Every parent should ask these questions!

 

I'm in SC.

I think I won't have as much trouble sending out all the tax stuff, SSNs, etc. when we're there since our data has already been stolen from our state taxes. I suppose that's the good part of the theft. ;)

 

I appreciate the discussions.

 

I haven't hung out on College Confidential yet.

We're above the median state salary, but we're still not to a point where we need to worry about AMT.

We're not saving for college.

 

Extra cash we have goes to savings (up to about 3 months of living expenses finally), mortgage, and retirement. It seems to me that it makes more sense to put as much as possible into an IRA rather than setting that aside for college. If it's a Roth IRA, I think I'd be able to pull out what I'd put in to use for college if it's essential - or we could do an equity line on the house (yuck), or I can work more (teach 5 classes rather than 2 as an adjunct, year-round, and that looks like it'd cover what the EFC calculators say would be our contribution).

 

And then there's the question of how much things will change by the time my son gets ready to apply to college.

Wish it all were easier & clearer.

 

I do appreciate those of you who stay around and share your experience. It helps a lot. (even though it also leads to the occasional hyperventilation and panicked conversation with my husband)

[scholarly]

I just wanted to address the 4 year graduation rates for students getting less assistance. At the college at which I worked, students were encouraged to take 5 years to graduate because they were still able to get grants and loans for the fifth year. They ended up paying less out of pocket for tuition and fees because of this. I still had issues with the policy, because I felt this did not take into account the lost wages the student could have been earning in a full time job during that fifth year, but it did enable students to pay less per semester.

[Barbara H]

 

Yes, we all go into the car dealership knowing that the price is not the price. We know it's the same with college. But the car dealer doesn't ask you for your tax returns. And the value of your house. And the rules are a lot simpler.

 

The rumor has always been that the car dealer runs credit checks when you are out doing the test drive. My friend who worked at a car dealership said that was indeed practice where he worked, but I don't think it is legal so I'm not sure how widespread it is.

 

The two biggest things that are hurting families with the EFC is that 1. it assumes your wages have been similar over time so you should have saved at the level deemed appropriate for your current wages. That's big trouble if you now have two earners after years of having just one. 2. The EFC doesn't consider debt. So, if you are in debt (whether it was to pay for an excessive lifestyle, whether you live in an area with expensive housing or if it was to pay for your cancer treatment) you are equally hurt.

 

If you save money for college, on average the bill will be higher.

 

This is complicated and there is often a lot of misunderstanding around this issue. There is a personal allowance and there are other ways to save including the retirement scenario you mentioned. Just for other folks reading I don't want people to get the idea that all saving is bad. If you haven't saved you aren't going to be able to meet your EFC. Here's an good article on the topic: http://www.thecollegesolution.com/is-the-money-in-your-college-account-a-ticking-money-bomb/

 

Barbara: The other issue in rising costs is that two of the biggest ticket costs for colleges have risen much faster than the rate of inflation. Those are the costs of health care (for employees) and the cost of energy (for heating all those big old buildings).

Sorry, I'm not buying it. This is an issue for most businesses. You don't see costs of all goods and services rising at these rates.

 

There's quite a bit of research on this. Colleges are affected disproportionately because those costs are a larger portion of their costs and they have risen so dramatically. Too big to dig into here, but to really look at how the rates have risen we should be looking at netprice not sticker price. Particularly at private colleges, scholarships are the norm so the net price is nowhere near the listed sticker price and few people pay that sticker price.

 

If you are homeschooled? If you TAKE courses at the CC - honors courses - as a high school student and score in the top 1% of students? (Note - the kids at the high school can take 'em for free. We pay the full rate.) If your test scores place you at the TOP of high school graduates in this state? If the state has never had to spend ONE RED CENT to get you there, guess what? NOPE! That scholarship option is not available to you. You don't qualify.

 

 

Yes, that's a total rip off. We have a similar (though smaller scale) issue in our state where part of our state scholarship is based on GPA and homeschoolers are not eligible to get that, even if they had 60 hours perfect 4.0 GPA at at he state university as a dual enrolled student. But, a lesser GPA from a for poor quality high school in courses that are not really college prep courses, would earn the scholarship.

 

I'm wondering if homeschoolers have done any lobbying around this issue. In some states there are alternative means of qualifying for GPA based scholarships such as basing them retroactively on the first year college GPA.

[Caroline]

 

 

Yes, that's a total rip off. We have a similar (though smaller scale) issue in our state where part of our state scholarship is based on GPA and homeschoolers are not eligible to get that, even if they had 60 hours perfect 4.0 GPA at at he state university as a dual enrolled student. But, a lesser GPA from a for poor quality high school in courses that are not really college prep courses, would earn the scholarship.

 

I'm wondering if homeschoolers have done any lobbying around this issue. In some states there are alternative means of qualifying for GPA based scholarships such as basing them retroactively on the first year college GPA.

 

This is true in Georgia for the Hope Scholarship. Homeschoolers did lobby to enable their kids to get the Hope Scholarship. I don't know exactly how it works, but, yes, you can get the Hope Scholarship in GA if you are home educated. Bev in B'ville, who I haven't seen around here for a while, knows a lot about this in Georgia.

[Barbara H]

Regarding graduation rates, while it is really depressing on the one hand to see so many students not graduating or taking six years, I also think this is an area where knowledge is power. Some colleges do a much better job at advising than others and it is important not to just assume your kid is on track. In my opinion if you are paying the bills you have a right to compel your children to provide progress reports. I strongly advise that parents set their expectations and talk about college graduation rates before their kids enter college.

[Barbara H]

This is true in Georgia for the Hope Scholarship. Homeschoolers did lobby to enable their kids to get the Hope Scholarship. I don't know exactly how it works, but, yes, you can get the Hope Scholarship in GA if you are home educated. Bev in B'ville, who I haven't seen around here for a while, knows a lot about this in Georgia.

 

 

Yes, for sure systems can be developed and it can be done. Many states have figured out ways to allow homeschoolers to be in these programs.

http://www.ghea.org/...p.php

http://www.tn.gov/co...rs.htm

http://www.floridast.../bf/homepac.htm

 

Unfortunately all of these state scholarship programs are in decline with the economy and it is going to be a tough sell to get any expansion to cover homeschoolers. I understand not taking the parent's word for the GPA, but there are logical alternative ways to make this work such as taking the GPA from freshman year in college, taking the GPA from dual enrollment, etc.

[SunnyDays]

I don't usually hang out on this board... I followed a link from another thread to this discussion. I only have a 4th grader, so we're nowhere near this process. But I'm really glad all you ladies are here sharing your experience. My husband and I are discussing what I've read here, and I think it will be helpful to us to start thinking about it all early. I know a lot might change in the 6-7 years before we really start the process, but I'll be sure to keep on top of it, knowing what I do. So just wanted to say thanks for all the insight! :)

[zoo_keeper]

What's next? Demanding the records of middle aged adults before their elderly parents can get their Social Security? Probably, if there's a way to shift more financial burden to families, it will be done.

While this isn't legal at the federal level, 30 states have filial responsibility laws that allow civil suits for debts incurred by elderly indigent parents against the adult children if they have the means. It's terrifying, IMO.

[Kareni]

So, here is the question -- can a kid get scholarships & attend a college without the parents filling out the FAFSA now? My parents refused to fill it out. Period. There were five of us kids & I'm the fourth. They didn't fill out the FAFSA ever. (Two went to college on full-rides & paid the fees/extras by part time jobs, one went full time military then to an Academy, two (oldest/youngest) went on pay-as-you-go with parents paying 50% of the total price in the end with no scholarships at all.) Is that even possible anymore? (From someone who doesn't want to give them a tax return either.)

 

 

If the college applicant is over 24, married, provider for a dependent child, serving in the armed forces, or was orphaned after age 13, he or she is considered independent and does not need to have a parent fill out the FAFSA. There are several other scenarios that also apply. See here.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

PS ~ At one point, we considered starting a WTM matchmaking service which could neatly have provided not one but two independent students ....

[Storm Bay]

Totally agree. But they don't. You'd think this would bring the price down. But instead, since many if not most are subsidized, the rest pay through the nose. Me too. This is such a blatant infringement upon my privacy. I'm not going to their darn school and my kid only needs merit scholarships. Give them to her on her MERIT, not MY financial statement. We may not participate at all. Haven't decided yet. That's great, if you have trustworthy family, who will treat this like a sacred responsibility. Unfortunately, family is the first to financially stick it to family, in many instances. This is why people are advised not to mix business and family, ever. So long as it is a gift, fine. Or a loan to a highly responsible party.

 

You can't get merit scholarships at our state schools unless you fill out the FAFSA, even if they are merit only.

 

My son has been accepted to a great state university with a large merit scholarship. It has a 4 year graduation rate of 32.5%. Why? Because a huge number of those kids co-op. And those co-op semesters don't count against the merit scholarship. The 5 year grad rate is near 75%.

There are a number of factors as to why graduation rate isn't always high for 4 years, and one are co-op programs. Another is when students work & go part time. However, some are because requisite classes fill up and some students can't get in when they need to in order to graduate on time.

 

Again, I hear ya! Blew my mind that some schools wanted tax returns before giving the financial aid package! I phoned each of these and asked what their Document Retention and Destruction policy is. (Can you tell that I have served on the Board of Directors of non-profits? My forte is that of Policy Wonk.) Most hold on to those tax returns for more than a year given the rate of transfer after year one of college. Often the industrial shredders then come in to clean out the file cabinets. But what about electronic copies? Every parent should ask these questions!

 

You can't even get the merit aid at our state schools without doing a FAFSA, even with a full ride scholarship, at least not at the schools we looked at (5 state schools). We have to do one, privacy or no, or our dc don't go to college as we don't have tens of thousands of dollars for a private school, and won't hear if dd gets the full ride to a private school until it's too late to make the 2/14 deadline.

[FaithManor]

While this isn't legal at the federal level, 30 states have filial responsibility laws that allow civil suits for debts incurred by elderly indigent parents against the adult children if they have the means. It's terrifying, IMO.

 

 

Oh yes, Michigan actually considered passing legislation that would have allowed the state to sue you for nursing home bills if your parents assets ran out. Pay up or take them home, even if you can't possibly physically care for them! They wanted to go back 20 years through your parents' financial records and if at any time past your 18th birthday, they gifted you one.red.cent., you'd have to cough it up. It was seriously terrifying. I had visions of "A Brave New World" kind of state government. Thankfully, it was shall we say, WILDLY UNPOPULAR, and did not make it out of committee.

 

I expect though that this kind of thinking could be more applied to college funding if the powers that be were of a mind. It's going to be far easier to foist off on the general public, "We'll take your house because your kid didn't pay his school loan!" than it is to say, "Your parents owe the nursing home $28,000.00 because they are too infirm to live at home. Get another mortgage!"

 

Gack!

 

Must eat a piece of chocolate, must eat a piece of chocolate, must eat a piece of chocolate....LOL

 

On the topic of graduation rates, dh graduated in four, no angst. I, on the other hand, ever the "I must do everything that the music department offers" gal, graduated in five despite CLEP testing out of four GEN ED courses and transferring in four GEN ED requirements, plus taking 18 credit hours per semester. However, this is what happens when you declare, Piano Performance, Piano Pedagogy, Music Education - Instrumental Emphasis, and Philosophy as your majors with French and General Sciences in your minor! Clearly, I.did.it.to.myself. I also didn't get them all done. Piano Performance, Piano Ped, and Philosophy yes, shy one class of the French minor, one class (an upper level biology class if memory serves) of the sciences, and student teaching for the music ed. However, I taught at a private school that didn't care too hoots about the fact that I didn't have my teaching certificate and was there on an "out-of-profession" license. The principal and school superintendent are willing to file the necessary affidavit's to declare their supervision of my teaching for two years to be the equivalent of student teaching in college. That's a not well known option under Michigan state law to help people cross over from coveted professions such as math or science, into teaching...not that very many are looking to jump ship into PS classrooms these days! So, I suppose technically, I could have the degree hanging on my wall for Music Ed if I were inclined to do it.

 

DD is taking a year off to work, save money, and get married. It counts against U of M's four year graduation rate, however, it really has nothing to do with them at all.

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

If the college applicant is over 24, married, provider for a dependent child, serving in the armed forces, or was orphaned after age 13, he or she is considered independent and does not need to have a parent fill out the FAFSA. There are several other scenarios that also apply. See here.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

PS ~ At one point, we considered starting a WTM matchmaking service which could neatly have provided not one but two independent students ....

 

:smilielol5: :smilielol5: :smilielol5: AD: "Up for grabs, one 16 year old male child with a 3.89 GPA - blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..... Since this child causes the seller the most angst of all the offspring, sign-on bonus offered as soon as he reaches 18 years. "

 

Oh, my...my boy would not be amused if he knew where this discussion is going!

 

Dh says it's perfect. Marry them off on paper at the magistrate's office, let them go off to their respective colleges of choice after getting respectable need based aid, and after graduation, have it annulled. No brainer! :rofl:

 

Faith

[mommymilkies]

Honestly, having my daughter at the end of my hs senior year was a huge blessing because of this. My stepdad told me he would never pay a penny of college for me (and even though he is bound to in his divorce settlement, he doesn't for his own sons!). He would not sign the form so we could get reduced rate since he was a tenured professor at the University. He basically banned my mom from working. So because his income was high, I never would have gotten need based aid. I didn't even know I could afford to go to college until I worked as a CNA/phlebotomist for 1.5 years after graduating hs as a single mom. A coworker showed me I could. I had to take out student loans, but it was a real blessing. I was admitted to transfer to Duke in NC and my dh took a job nearby so we could afford to live there, but even though I was 24, married, and had 3 kids, they would not give me my aid or scholarship at Duke because I did not know my father. He's not even on the birth certificate. I spent hours arguing with them. First of all, it was irrelevant since i was a married 24 year old mother. secondly, there was no stinking father! So I never got to finish my B.S. maybe one day I'll get to go back.

 

I have a brother who was having a hard time paying for his degree. I told him to get married. ;)

[creekland]

 

:smilielol5: :smilielol5: :smilielol5: AD: "Up for grabs, one 16 year old male child with a 3.89 GPA - blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..... Since this child causes the seller the most angst of all the offspring, sign-on bonus offered as soon as he reaches 18 years. "

 

Oh, my...my boy would not be amused if he knew where this discussion is going!

 

Dh says it's perfect. Marry them off on paper at the magistrate's office, let them go off to their respective colleges of choice after getting respectable need based aid, and after graduation, have it annulled. No brainer! :rofl:

 

Faith

 

All I can say is middle son is quite the catch and I doubt anyone would want something annulled anytime afterward. IF they do, the problem is on their end. "I'M" envious of his multiple talents coupled with people skills (even at home) that far outshine my own on both accounts.

 

My other two would probably need a higher sign on bonus than yours... My oldest is engaged now (she's nice and I do wish them luck), but it's a little too late as he'll only have one year left...

[TranquilMind]

While this isn't legal at the federal level, 30 states have filial responsibility laws that allow civil suits for debts incurred by elderly indigent parents against the adult children if they have the means. It's terrifying, IMO.

 

Yeah, no kidding that isn't legal! Wow.

 

When older people get "forgetful", there is no telling what they might do, as we have all read, and they might seem perfectly normal for the longest time.

[zoo_keeper]

Yeah, no kidding that isn't legal! Wow.

 

When older people get "forgetful", there is no telling what they might do, as we have all read, and they might seem perfectly normal for the longest time.

 

 

No, I'm not saying it's illegal. In 30 states it IS legal. What I'm saying is that there's a federal law that says children's income will be ignored for federal aid like Medicaid (which I know is partially state funded). It does not prohibit states from considering children's assets. I'm terrified of these laws. My parents are a disaster, a time bomb waiting to explode. They live in a state with filial responsibility laws whereas I live in a state without the laws. I have not been able to determine if I could still be held responsible if I lived in a separate state.

 

But to address the OP's question, I was reading the FAFSA last night, and emancipating an 18 year old is probably going to be too late. The student must be emancipated as a minor (age of majority is set by state law). I am unaware of any ramifications of emancipating a minor, and it sounds scary enough to make me shy away from it.

[unsinkable]

 

 

All I can say is middle son is quite the catch and I doubt anyone would want something annulled anytime afterward. IF they do, the problem is on their end. "I'M" envious of his multiple talents coupled with people skills (even at home) that far outshine my own on both accounts.

 

My other two would probably need a higher sign on bonus than yours... My oldest is engaged now (she's nice and I do wish them luck), but it's a little too late as he'll only have one year left...

 

 

 

Hands off, ladies. I have my match making eye on creekland's DS for my DD...hopefully he can also someday cure her epilepsy! LOL

 

I will offer a bright funny handsome athletic type DS who wants to be a CPA...and also loves babies and dogs. ROFL