Lay off the poor

[Elinor Everywhere]

I know, right? I keep reading these comments about what people are seeing when they are "standing in line at the grocery store. " All I can think is "I never notice what is in anyone's cart because I am usually reading a book or playing some silly game on my cell phone when I stand in line."

 

So maybe the key to improving everyone's mood is to stop looking in each other's shopping cart?

 

It was worth a shot.

 

I was thinking that earlier, too. I'm usually staring at the tabloids to see what amazing thing they are trumpeting as fact, or, if I'm grocery shopping at Trader Joe's I'm chatting with the cashier and bagging my own groceries, or talking with my kids, or hiding the fact that there is a dog in my bag.....:D

[Slartibartfast]

I posted to the wrong thread :D

[Catwoman]

Just a question about the ire and judgmentalism that many feel get directed toward wealthy people...do wealthy people really get criticized just for being wealthy? I honestly don't see alot of "That person's such a jerk, look at all the money they have.." It seems to me only to happen when someone who is well off draws attention to themselves by making judgments about other people's situation, not having a sense of reality, or judging everyone else by their own experience.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about that. Obviously many of you feel very strongly that wealthy people get judged as well. But people on food stamps usually don't have too much time to go around lobbying to stop rich people from getting subsidies. I agree that it's wrong to judge anyone simply by their financial status. I just don't think it happens equally on both sides.

 

Besides, the poor lack the power and control of people who are well off. They simply don't have the power to hurt the wealthy the way the wealthy can hurt the poor by their influence.

 

Yes, they are judged. Even right here on these forums. And I think it does happen equally on both sides.

 

The rich do not have a monopoly on judgmentalism or resentfulness toward those who are different from them. There's plenty of that to go around at all economic levels. There is tremendous prejudice against "rich" people, with all sorts of nasty stereotypes, just as there is prejudice against people who are perceived as being "poor," with its whole set of unpleasant stereotypes.

 

There are people who perceive all financially successful people as being greedy, materialistic, self-centered, arrogant, swindling, entitled, out of touch with "real life" snobs who made their money off the sweat and tears of the downtrodden... and that's just for starters.

 

I truly think that some people simply don't like anyone who is different from them, and they make themselves feel better and more important by knocking down anyone who isn't just like they are.

 

And it's not a matter of "power and control." That's not what this discussion is about. It's about how it makes people feel when others unjustly judge them on the basis of their perceived wealth or lack of wealth.

[tabrizia]

Just a question about the ire and judgmentalism that many feel get directed toward wealthy people...do wealthy people really get criticized just for being wealthy? I honestly don't see alot of "That person's such a jerk, look at all the money they have.." It seems to me only to happen when someone who is well off draws attention to themselves by making judgments about other people's situation, not having a sense of reality, or judging everyone else by their own experience.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about that. Obviously many of you feel very strongly that wealthy people get judged as well. But people on food stamps usually don't have too much time to go around lobbying to stop rich people from getting subsidies. I agree that it's wrong to judge anyone simply by their financial status. I just don't think it happens equally on both sides.

 

Bottom line, the poor lack the power and control of people who are well off. They simply don't have the power to hurt the wealthy the way the wealthy can hurt the poor by their influence.

 

 

Yes they do, and often. I figure no one knows what anyone else's finances are no matter what they are wearing, doing, or using, so I don't worry about it, but yes those percieved to have wealth often get judgement and criticizim leveled at them just because they have money or are perceived to have money.

[Mergath]

I am with Heather. I have no idea what most people are buying or with what-except I know it is usually cards or cash, not checks. It probably wouldn't be fruitful for me to look for food stamp cards, anyway, since I doubt they get used much at my local stores and not at the commissary either.

 

:iagree: Who the heck are these people that sit around making a mental note of what's in someone's cart, and then waiting to see how they pay for it all? Obviously people do that, because several on this board have said they see people buying junk food with FS all the time. Are you people really that bored? What's next, are you going to demand to follow them home and see their medical bills so you can make sure the government didn't pay for any unnecessary procedures for them? Better yank the tags out of their shirt to make sure they aren't wearing anything better than Faded Glory brand clothing, too.

 

Honestly, those of you who do this really just need to get a life. Or maybe spend a little less time obsessing about money.

[Catwoman]

Well, I can't tell you what's in anyone's cart, because I'm just not that observant, but I will tell you that whomever is in line in front of me is going to have at least one item that won't scan, and the cashier will have to do a price check, and I'm going to be standing in that stupid line for another 20 minutes.

 

At that point, I will no longer care whether or not the person in front of me is paying for the soda and the cookies with food stamps, as I will be too busy hoping she will open them and offer to share them with me. :tongue_smilie:

[Murphy101]

Being a saint has nothing to do with income. Many saints were kings and queens of good virtue, stewardship and generosity. I would also be okay if my child decided to be in missions or a monk or whatever. We need those people too. *shrugs*

[Catwoman]

 

Umm, you're reading things into what I wrote.

...

 

The prosperity gospel that I was denying is the idea that if you're good and believe in God and do x, y, and z God will bless you with material prosperity. This is simply not true. As been noted here and other places, one can be very hard working, believe in God and be very virtuous but still not be materially successful and it is no reflection on how "blessed" they are by God.

 

Oh --sorry!!! Thanks for the clarification! (I didn't quote your whole post because it was long, so I just quoted the beginning and the end so people would know what I was responding to.)

 

Sorry I misinterpreted what you meant! :blush:

[Catwoman]

 

No problem.

 

I am too incredibly wordy, aren't I? :leaving:

 

 

I am definitely not the person who can complain about that... :rolleyes:

[SKL]

Just a question about the ire and judgmentalism that many feel get directed toward wealthy people...do wealthy people really get criticized just for being wealthy? I honestly don't see alot of "That person's such a jerk, look at all the money they have.." It seems to me only to happen when someone who is well off draws attention to themselves by making judgments about other people's situation, not having a sense of reality, or judging everyone else by their own experience.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about that. Obviously many of you feel very strongly that wealthy people get judged as well. But people on food stamps usually don't have too much time to go around lobbying to stop rich people from getting subsidies. I agree that it's wrong to judge anyone simply by their financial status. I just don't think it happens equally on both sides.

 

Bottom line, the poor lack the power and control of people who are well off. They simply don't have the power to hurt the wealthy the way the wealthy can hurt the poor by their influence.

 

A. Yes, people get judged just for having money. You should see what happens when I say that my kids had a full-time nanny for a while. Sheesh. My nanny was making more than I was, but the nasty assumptions are really enlightening. And also, if I mention I have a few bucks, the assumption is that I spend it all on myself and never give a thought to charity. And if I did give any money to charity, it must have been motivated by the tax deduction, not any actual compassion or desire to make the world a better place. Oh, and since I'm financially comfortable now, that means I've never struggled and have no ability to imagine how hard life can be for "the other half."

 

B. So you think that if a person is wealthy his new goal is to "hurt" poor people? Who the hell has a goal to hurt poor people? So what if I have the "power" to do something that I would never desire to do? I thought life was about making the most of one's own gifts, not trying to interfere with someone else's. Oh, and most people I know who have built up a few bucks are actively working to find opportunities for charity. It is far more likely to see wealthy people using their "power" to *help* the poor, not hurt them.

[Denisemomof4]

There seems to be a lot of judgement on the board about what the poor should and shouldn't do.

 

According to recent post:

Poor shouldn't

- have children

- drink soda

- eat junk food

- buy cake mix to bake their kid a birthday cake... Etc.

 

Sure some people abuse the system. Always have, always will. But, withhold judgement until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

 

What this world needs is a little more compassion and understanding and a lot less judgement.

 

YES!!!!!! EXCELLENT!!!!! :hurray:

[goldberry]

 

B. So you think that if a person is wealthy his new goal is to "hurt" poor people? Who the hell has a goal to hurt poor people? So what if I have the "power" to do something that I would never desire to do? I thought life was about making the most of one's own gifts, not trying to interfere with someone else's. Oh, and most people I know who have built up a few bucks are actively working to find opportunities for charity. It is far more likely to see wealthy people using their "power" to *help* the poor, not hurt them.

 

Please re-read what I said....They (the poor) simply don't have the power to hurt the wealthy the way the wealthy can hurt the poor by their influence.

 

I did not say anything like what you implied. Those who have power in the world (money or position or influence to make certain things happen) have the ability to impact those who do not have those same benefits. That is a fact, not an accusation. And yes, there are plenty who use that power-money-influence for good. I was making a point about the inherent inequality and how it affects the weight whatever judgments and criticism may carry. You took away something entirely different from what I said.

 

I appreciate the other responses, I truly am not around anyone who criticises rich people just for the heck of it. I think it's horrible to accuse anyone of doing something kind such as a charity just for selfish reasons, or assume they are clueless just because they have money. I try not to judge wealthy people's motives for the same reasons I try not to judge a poor person's motives...because I don't know them (unless such person chooses to state them directly). It's much better to just assume people are trying to do their best, whatever their situation.

[Murphy101]

I wish there was no such thing as an income tax. It pits those making money against those not making money. Then pits income brackets against income brackets.

 

Why can't it just be property and sales taxes?

 

Not that it matter what I think. I'm just rambling out loud...

[goldberry]

I truly think that some people simply don't like anyone who is different from them, and they make themselves feel better and more important by knocking down anyone who isn't just like they are.

 

 

 

This is absolutely true....and yes you are right that definitely goes all directions.

 

Sorry - will quit posting now so this thread will die its natural and timely death!

[SKL]

Please re-read what I said....They (the poor) simply don't have the power to hurt the wealthy the way the wealthy can hurt the poor by their influence.

 

I did not say anything like what you implied. Those who have power in the world (money or position or influence to make certain things happen) have the ability to impact those who do not have those same benefits. That is a fact, not an accusation. And yes, there are plenty who use that power-money-influence for good. I was making a point about the inherent inequality and how it affects the weight whatever judgments and criticism may carry. You took away something entirely different from what I said.

 

 

 

I still have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make. So some rich people have "power" that the average poor person does not. So what? So are you saying that I'm not entitled to an opinion about someone feeding their kid Coke as if it were food, because I have some sort of "power"? Or if I were poor and powerless, I'd think Coke is just a fine meal replacement?

 

First of all, I have zero power over anyone, rich or poor, unless I have a direct connection with them such as employer-employee relationship. And so far, I've never fired anyone over their personal food choices. As far as everyone else in the world, the poor person down the street has just as much ability to make my life hell as I have to make hers hell. I could call CPS on her for not feeding her kids well, and she could call CPS on me for spanking. Thankfully I don't have the kind of heart that looks for opportunities to hurt people, nor do I live in fear of others doing so.

 

And unfortunately, I have zero direct power over what my tax rate will be, so there goes that. I have exactly one vote regarding how my tax money is spent, same as anyone else who bothers to fill out a ballot. Maybe if I were Sam Walton's heir, I'd have money to spend on political campaigns, but that is not something I would ever do, even if I could. That said, I use my spending power to choose to give money to charities that I believe will most help those in need of hope. I still don't see how that means I shouldn't have an opinion about how tax-funded subsidies are spent.

 

And if knowledge is power, access to information to the poor is tremendous today. Far more than it was to the rich just 10 years ago.

 

Besides, as has been pointed out, a lot of the people complaining about the abuse of benefits are relatively modest- or low-income themselves. Maybe, just maybe, some of that frustration is justified. Why can't that be said without it being some reflection of the soul of the person saying it?

[Scarlett]

 

I still have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make. So some rich people have "power" that the average poor person does not. So what? So are you saying that I'm not entitled to an opinion about someone feeding their kid Coke as if it were food, because I have some sort of "power"? Or if I were poor and powerless, I'd think Coke is just a fine meal replacement?

 

First of all, I have zero power over anyone, rich or poor, unless I have a direct connection with them such as employer-employee relationship. And so far, I've never fired anyone over their personal food choices. As far as everyone else in the world, the poor person down the street has just as much ability to make my life hell as I have to make hers hell. I could call CPS on her for not feeding her kids well, and she could call CPS on me for spanking. Thankfully I don't have the kind of heart that looks for opportunities to hurt people, nor do I live in fear of others doing so.

 

And unfortunately, I have zero direct power over what my tax rate will be, so there goes that. I have exactly one vote regarding how my tax money is spent, same as anyone else who bothers to fill out a ballot. Maybe if I were Sam Walton's heir, I'd have money to spend on political campaigns, but that is not something I would ever do, even if I could. That said, I use my spending power to choose to give money to charities that I believe will most help those in need of hope. I still don't see how that means I shouldn't have an opinion about how tax-funded subsidies are spent.

 

And if knowledge is power, access to information to the poor is tremendous today. Far more than it was to the rich just 10 years ago.

 

Besides, as has been pointed out, a lot of the people complaining about the abuse of benefits are relatively modest- or low-income themselves. Maybe, just maybe, some of that frustration is justified. Why can't that be said without it being some reflection of the soul of the person saying it?

 

 

I totally got what she was saying. Wealthy people DO have the ability to exert influence over poor people. For good or bad. Whether they do or not is another matter.

[Scarlett]

Yes, they are judged. Even right here on these forums. And I think it does happen equally on both sides.

 

The rich do not have a monopoly on judgmentalism or resentfulness toward those who are different from them. There's plenty of that to go around at all economic levels. There is tremendous prejudice against "rich" people, with all sorts of nasty stereotypes, just as there is prejudice against people who are perceived as being "poor," with its whole set of unpleasant stereotypes.

 

There are people who perceive all financially successful people as being greedy, materialistic, self-centered, arrogant, swindling, entitled, out of touch with "real life" snobs who made their money off the sweat and tears of the downtrodden... and that's just for starters.

 

I truly think that some people simply don't like anyone who is different from them, and they make themselves feel better and more important by knocking down anyone who isn't just like they are.

 

And it's not a matter of "power and control." That's not what this discussion is about. It's about how it makes people feel when others unjustly judge them on the basis of their perceived wealth or lack of wealth.

 

 

I don't judge people based on wealth or lack of. I'm trying to think if I know anyone who does that. Honestly I don't recall seeing it here on this board either.

 

I do believe that when some people get to a certain level of wealthiness that they do become out of touch with how non wealthy people get by. But that is true at all levels in a relative sense.....I feel like we are barely scaping by sometimes but then come in contact with someone who is REALLY barely scraping by.

[Impish]

Hmmm.

 

I think, like many siutations, rich/poor is one of those things that experience is really the only teacher.

 

You can totally empathize w/someone struggling financially, but unless you've been there, it's really hard to 'get' the sick/scared feeling in the pit of your stomach, how it colours everything, etc.

 

Kinda like trying to tell someone what it's like to hold your child for the first time. It's powerful, incredible, and all the imagination in the world doesn't hold a candle to the reality, kwim?

 

I wonder if that's where some of the reactions come from...same idea as someone who's never married, never parented, giving parenting advice. Loads of ppl would have a knee jerk, unhappy reaction to that. I think ppl genuinely feel that the situation cannot really be understood if a person hasn't been there.

 

Having to choose btwn milk and bread b/c it's a few days before payday. It's not a choice many have had to experience, and it's really hard to describe, that feeling of desperation, hopelessness, shame that goes w/it.

 

and, let's face it, some ppl are just jerks, regardless of their bank statements. :tongue_smilie:

[SKL]

I totally got what she was saying. Wealthy people DO have the ability to exert influence over poor people. For good or bad. Whether they do or not is another matter.

 

But assuming that is true, so what? What does it have to do with this discussion? I am truly not getting it.

[Scarlett]

 

But assuming that is true, so what? What does it have to do with this discussion? I am truly not getting it.

 

Oh well I for one have forgotten what the discussion is about. :rofl:

[SKL]

Oh well I for one have forgotten what the discussion is about. :rofl:

 

Good point.

[SKL]

Hmmm.

 

I think, like many siutations, rich/poor is one of those things that experience is really the only teacher.

 

You can totally empathize w/someone struggling financially, but unless you've been there, it's really hard to 'get' the sick/scared feeling in the pit of your stomach, how it colours everything, etc.

 

Kinda like trying to tell someone what it's like to hold your child for the first time. It's powerful, incredible, and all the imagination in the world doesn't hold a candle to the reality, kwim?

 

I wonder if that's where some of the reactions come from...same idea as someone who's never married, never parented, giving parenting advice. Loads of ppl would have a knee jerk, unhappy reaction to that. I think ppl genuinely feel that the situation cannot really be understood if a person hasn't been there.

 

 

True, but the thing is, the fact that a person has money does not mean he has never experienced severe adversity. I could write a book about all the really tough times I've had to navigate through. No, they are not exactly the same as yours, nor can you exactly relate to mine. But they are there in the lines on my face. And, they mean that maybe when I say "you'd be wise to do x," I'm talking from hard-won personal experience, not a misguided sense of superiority. You know what they say, learn from others' mistakes because life's too short to make them all yourself. (That said, I'm not all that good at learning from others' mistakes.)

[Retired]

There seems to be a lot of judgement on the board about what the poor should and shouldn't do.

 

According to recent post:

Poor shouldn't

- have children

- drink soda

- eat junk food

- buy cake mix to bake their kid a birthday cake... Etc.

 

Sure some people abuse the system. Always have, always will. But, withhold judgement until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

 

What this world needs is a little more compassion and understanding and a lot less judgement.

 

 

I havent' read or posted on the other threads but as someone who was poor during the 70's and 80's

 

- my parents had a 3rd child they couldn't afford and as the oldest child I resented him a bit cause I was already the one in school without a thing. It made me as an adult know I wouldnt' have more kids than I ccould provide for

- we only got a soda after we found enough glass bottles that we could trade the money to buy one

- we got junk food when well never

- my mom did buy cake mix and fix us a cake

 

what my parents didn't do is take goverment help except for about 6 weeks in 1979. my dad refused the system as much as possible and worked many crap jobs.

 

SO to be honest if i wanted to post on the other thread - i've walked the shoes

 

I also cleaned houses, worked nights cleaning busienss and everthing else I ccould do to better myself and go to ccollege.

 

So yeah sometimes i do judge when i see people wanting more hand outs.

 

i don't have a probelm helping folks, i've given money and groceries to people all the time. but when i see after a certian amount of time they aren't changing their circumstances and keep coming back. I know its a charater problem and not a lack of

 

I know i was the poor kids in the hand my downs. I didn't have my own gym shoes in 7th grade and wore some of my dads with tissue in the toes. I wore pants inches to short. I know what the humilation of being poor is like.

 

I just know with my parents it started out with lack of education, then mental issues, my baby brother was my moms answerr to depression

 

I get the poor been their done that but i also get we've got people poor today due to a system that keeps them that way and encourages the lazy life style. I work in a inner city e/r. There are The Projects all around my hospital. i see what the give me system has done.

 

I could really go on and on. I get the judgement issue you posted about but i also being someone from both sides know there is a reason to judge. The thing is there are poor because of lazy, poor because of ignorance (low IQ), poor because of mental issues, poor because of alchol and drug issues. There are poor like myself that was raised in those circumstances that used education which is free here in the US. I didn't get a great education but it was enough to help me work towards getting out of proverty. There is not a reason in the US that someone can't work themselves out of poverty if they don't have low IQ, mental disability and physical disablities. THey just have to want to and work their a$$ off.

[Impish]

True, but the thing is, the fact that a person has money does not mean he has never experienced severe adversity. I could write a book about all the really tough times I've had to navigate through. No, they are not exactly the same as yours, nor can you exactly relate to mine. But they are there in the lines on my face. And, they mean that maybe when I say "you'd be wise to do x," I'm talking from hard-won personal experience, not a misguided sense of superiority. You know what they say, learn from others' mistakes because life's too short to make them all yourself. (That said, I'm not all that good at learning from others' mistakes.)

Oh, granted! I'm talking about some generalized perceptions.

 

give you another example.

 

Someone breaks their arm. Tells me that know they KNOW what my having RSD is like.

 

Nope, they don't. Yes, they're hurt, yes, they're now doing things one handed...for a time. But, thankfully, they don't know what RSD is like. They know what it's like to have a broken arm, w/the pain and challenges that go w/, but not to have RSD.

 

Doesn't make them a bad person, or me noble b/c I do, or any carp like that.

 

Just means that they cannot truly understand what it's like. They have a really good *idea*, for a short time (by short, I mean, they'll heal, but I'm stuck for life) but memory fades.

 

It's just the way it is, sometimes.

[Elinor Everywhere]

Oh well I for one have forgotten what the discussion is about. :rofl:

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[mommaduck]

Sorry, but I see resentment of a sibling, regardless of poverty, to be a personal/character issue, not something that is caused by poverty. I've known plenty of people that live in poverty that don't resent their siblings.

[Scarlett]

Sorry, but I see resentment of a sibling, regardless of poverty, to be a personal/character issue, not something that is caused by poverty. I've known plenty of people that live in poverty that don't resent their siblings.

 

I was thinking along these lines too...also that public assistance does NOT create lazy people. There are lazy people who make 100K a year and lazy people who don't work at all. Just like there are very hardworking people who need assistance and there are very hardworking people who don't.

[2squared]

I wish there was no such thing as an income tax. It pits those making money against those not making money. Then pits income brackets against income brackets.

 

Why can't it just be property and sales taxes?

 

Not that it matter what I think. I'm just rambling out loud...

 

 

I think a consumption tax would be the best. In my consumption tax world, I would be in favor of not taxing food and clothing. The rest would be taxed at a flat rate across the board. This method would reward saving too.

[Impish]

What I find interesting is that if you're financially well, it's all to your credit.

 

If you're poor, it's all your fault.

 

There's no room for any sort of understanding that good things/bad things happen w/out any actual action from the ppl involved.

[I.Dup.]

I think SO much of being wealthy is knowing the right people and having solid family support. There are people that build up their own wealth all on their own coming from the slums, but usually it's having the right connections. That is true for every wealthy person I've ever known anyway.

[Murphy101]

Sorry, but I see resentment of a sibling, regardless of poverty, to be a personal/character issue, not something that is caused by poverty. I've known plenty of people that live in poverty that don't resent their siblings.

 

Me too. Also, why resent the sibling and not a father who let pride keep him from accepting help that might have made his child's life at least slightly less awful? I don't understand that at all.

 

And grew suffering every single one of the things the poster listed.

 

I was thinking along these lines too...also that public assistance does NOT create lazy people. There are lazy people who make 100K a year and lazy people who don't work at all. Just like there are very hardworking people who need assistance and there are very hardworking people who don't.

 

Amen. I'm know easier doesn't mean better, but I don't think letting pride work someone into an early grave is particularly more virtuous either. Surely there is middle ground and I think MOST people would agree that MOST people, whether they need help or not, want to provide for themselves as much as they can.

[Mama Geek]

I think SO much of being wealthy is knowing the right people and having solid family support. There are people that build up their own wealth all on their own coming from the slums, but usually it's having the right connections. That is true for every wealthy person I've ever known anyway.

 

Neither dh or I grew up wealthy, we both went to college and both got our first jobs strictly by resume and interviews. My 2nd and 3rd jobs were the same way and dh's 2nd job ended up being where my third job was. Our other jobs have all happened because of people we met through working. We made some good investments in our home, in profit sharing, and in our 401k's. We both made a fairly risky job move that also helped us a lot. It has been to some extent based on who we knew, but it was people we met while we were already working.

 

It isn't always about having great connections, now I did have strong support from my mom and dh.

[SKL]

Even if it's true that "who you know" can help, you have to create good relationships for that to work. I can think of many, many people whom I know but whom I would never recommend for a responsible job, let alone hire. And of course there are some whom I've gone out of my way to recommend - because of how seriously awesome they were when I worked with them. It had absolutely no connection with what their finances (or mine) may have been.