Random thoughts: Abstaining from alcohol in situations

[elegantlion]

where it is culturally normal or expected in certain settings.

 

This is one of those random thoughts whizzing around in my head. I may be off in my thinking, I'm trying to think ahead (or as dh would say, thinking too much).

 

Is it culturally normal for a business person to be expected to consume alcohol in either Japan or Russia in after work social get togethers?

 

I have a picture in my head and I don't know if it's outdated or just wrong. Ds currently is intrigued by both countries and would love to have a job in Japan and travel to Russia. We are studying the language and culture of both countries. These are not cultures where my family has any experience.

 

I picture the Japanese businessman out for some sake after work and I wonder how it would be received if someone chose to abstain.

 

Our current counsel to ds is to not drink, period. Dh and I both have alcoholism in our family history. I drink in moderation, and try to model restaint, like a glass of wine after dinner. I'm not naive enough to believe ds will never touch alcohol, but I wonder what the business expectations might be if/when he is in those situations.

[DianeW88]

Well, we are LDS and do not drink alcohol at all. My husband has never had a problem on international business trips. When he explains his reasons, people are always happy to accomodate him. In the event that anyone ever pressed him to drink, he always politely and firmly declined. It's never hurt him, in a business sense, to do so, and it's often helped.

[LostSurprise]

I'm sorry, I can't comment on the long term consequences of that. Like the US, it probably varies a lot with different work environments.

 

DH worked for Panasonic in the US and he traveled to Japan a few times. His coworkers 'hosted' his time and were never insulted that he didn't drink. Nor was he insulted if they did (although they held off if it was a regular thing for them). Often they just worked late, and when they did go out it was for video games and Ramen.

[elegantlion]

Well, we are LDS and do not drink alcohol at all. My husband has never had a problem on international business trips. When he explains his reasons, people are always happy to accomodate him. In the event that anyone ever pressed him to drink, he always politely and firmly declined. It's never hurt him, in a business sense, to do so, and it's often helped.

 

that is good to hear, thank you.

 

I'm sorry, I can't comment on the long term consequences of that. Like the US, it probably varies a lot with different work environments.

 

DH worked for Panasonic in the US and he traveled to Japan a few times. His coworkers 'hosted' his time and were never insulted that he didn't drink. Nor was he insulted if they did (although they held off if it was a regular thing for them). Often they just worked late, and when they did go out it was for video games and Ramen.

 

Also, thank you. Ds would fit right into that crowd, work late then play video games and eat ramen, although I'm sure it's a better Ramen than he is used to.

[Crimson Wife]

I do have the occasional drink socially but often I will just have a San Pellegrino or other sparkling water with a lime because I'd rather eat my calories than drink them. It looks like a gin & tonic or vodka tonic so nobody blinks an eye or feels self-conscious that they are drinking alcohol when I'm not. It also serves the purpose of helping to politely decline an offer to share a bottle of wine or whatever because I can just pick up my glass and say, "no, thanks, I'm good with this."

[Carol in Cal.]

In Japan, there is a big distinction between settings.

 

It is very unusual and quite a high honor for someone to invite you to their home, and extremely insulting not to accept. At the home, though, the manners are more relaxed than outside, and alcohol is not always part of the entertainment. It would be hard to refuse, though, if offered.

 

Formal business entertaining tends to involve a lot of sake, etc. There is a rule that if you are offered some (IOW, someone holds the bottle out to you) you are expected to lift up your cup and say yes please and thank you after they pour, and drink it down pretty much then. Also, what people say when they have had some drinks is supposed to be the candid truth that they can't say at work, but never quoted there, so it's important to do this with them.

 

Having said that, the drunk driving laws in Japan are extremely strict, and also in general people drink far less than they do here. So even as a fairly thin American woman, I could keep up with no difficulty there. I have heard that there is a metabolic difficulty with alcohol genetically inherent in a lot of Japanese people, that most people of European descent do not have, and that evened things out for me.

 

I should mention, when I was travelling to Japan regularly on business it was during the 90's, so it's been a while. But in retrospect, at least then, it would have been quite rude and counterproductive to avoid alcohol there.

[Karen in CO]

Just make sure he gets comfortable with the idea of a public bath. The bath is probably more important that a drink after work. My ds has found that he loves the baths although no tattoos or noticeable body piercings are acceptable. He says that he often sees businessmen talking and working in the baths. The good part is that even his tiny apartment has a bathtub large enough for him to soak in.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Karen in CO

[stripe]

My ds has found that he loves the baths although no tattoos or noticeable body piercings are acceptable.

 

When naked, aren't all piercings visible? :001_huh:

[Karen in CO]

:lol:

When naked, aren't all piercings visible? :001_huh:

:lol: I dunno - maybe something small that you can take out before you get naked.

[elegantlion]

The only thing I've heard about the Japanese is they expect you to play golf. :lol:

 

I had a friend in high school who was an exchange student from Japan. She commented on how her dad hated to golf, but he had to with coworkers after work.

 

He doesn't play much, but he's actually quite good. I'll remind him.

 

Speaking of ramen. My Japanese friend gave me a bunch of ramen packs as a gift. They all tasted like fish. Even the chicken flavor. Not a good fish either. :tongue_smilie::D

 

So in Japan everything tastes like fish, even the chicken. :lol:

 

I do have the occasional drink socially but often I will just have a San Pellegrino or other sparkling water with a lime because I'd rather eat my calories than drink them. It looks like a gin & tonic or vodka tonic so nobody blinks an eye or feels self-conscious that they are drinking alcohol when I'm not. It also serves the purpose of helping to politely decline an offer to share a bottle of wine or whatever because I can just pick up my glass and say, "no, thanks, I'm good with this."

 

I think it's fairly easy to decline alcohol here. I don't drink at restaurants, although those giant margaritas look good sometimes.

 

In Japan, there is a big distinction between settings.

 

It is very unusual and quite a high honor for someone to invite you to their home, and extremely insulting not to accept. At the home, though, the manners are more relaxed than outside, and alcohol is not always part of the entertainment. It would be hard to refuse, though, if offered.

 

Formal business entertaining tends to involve a lot of sake, etc. There is a rule that if you are offered some (IOW, someone holds the bottle out to you) you are expected to lift up your cup and say yes please and thank you after they pour, and drink it down pretty much then. Also, what people say when they have had some drinks is supposed to be the candid truth that they can't say at work, but never quoted there, so it's important to do this with them.

 

Having said that, the drunk driving laws in Japan are extremely strict, and also in general people drink far less than they do here. So even as a fairly thin American woman, I could keep up with no difficulty there. I have heard that there is a metabolic difficulty with alcohol genetically inherent in a lot of Japanese people, that most people of European descent do not have, and that evened things out for me.

 

I should mention, when I was travelling to Japan regularly on business it was during the 90's, so it's been a while. But in retrospect, at least then, it would have been quite rude and counterproductive to avoid alcohol there.

 

I guess this would be my concern. We don't know if ds has those genetics and sometimes those alcoholic tendencies begin with one drink. It can be an inability to stop when needed. That's one of the reasons I choose to drink wine (okay one of the many reasons...) I want him to see moderation modeled.

 

Just make sure he gets comfortable with the idea of a public bath. The bath is probably more important that a drink after work. My ds has found that he loves the baths although no tattoos or noticeable body piercings are acceptable. He says that he often sees businessmen talking and working in the baths. The good part is that even his tiny apartment has a bathtub large enough for him to soak in.

 

Well ds is not a huge fan of constricting clothing, he wears shorts to school until it's too cold, but I'm not sure about the working while bathing. I'll have to warn him.

 

When naked, aren't all piercings visible? :001_huh:

One would think. :001_huh:

[Anne in CA]

In Japan, there is a big distinction between settings. I have heard that there is a metabolic difficulty with alcohol genetically inherent in a lot of Japanese people, that most people of European descent do not have, and that evened things out for me.

 

That is very intriguing to me because my dh has a good friend who is only 1/8th Japanese, but cannot drink more than one beer at at time or he will get alcohol poisoning. All his siblings are this way too. Until just now I thought it was a strange genetic thing with just his family, so this is very interesting.

 

However, this friend worked for a Japanese company for many years and the employees went out every night and it was very hard on his marriage. He left the company over it.

[Carrie75]

It's not just a Japanese thing, it's an Asian thing. It's known as the Asian Flush.

[Amira]

I don't know about Japan, but in Russia and other post-Soviet countries, it can be very difficult to turn down alcohol. Often it's all or nothing- if you start drinking, you'll be expected to continue (maybe for a long time), and you might be very pressured to start drinking. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it would be a problem business-wise, although it could be. It's certainly becoming more common for people to express food and drink preferences in most parts of the world. Having a plan before the event would be wise in case you don't want to drink.

 

In the Middle East we had an easy excuse for not drinking when we were offered tea and coffee because we could explain those are forbidden in our religion. No one batted an eye after that because Muslims in the Middle East are used to dealing with those sorts of prohibitions. But we've gotten the most pressure to drink in post-Soviet Muslim countries where that explanation didn't work because all the people drinking alcohol around us were Muslim.

[Riverland]

I don't know about Japan, but in Russia and other post-Soviet countries, it can be very difficult to turn down alcohol. Often it's all or nothing- if you start drinking, you'll be expected to continue (maybe for a long time), and you might be very pressured to start drinking. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it would be a problem business-wise, although it could be. It's certainly becoming more common for people to express food and drink preferences in most parts of the world. Having a plan before the event would be wise in case you don't want to drink.

.

 

:iagree:

DH has traveled for business many times to Russia. Alcohol is a way of life for them. Morning, noon, and night. During work, after work.

[elegantlion]

It's not just a Japanese thing, it's an Asian thing. It's known as the Asian Flush.

 

Something else to google. :glare:

 

I don't know about Japan, but in Russia and other post-Soviet countries, it can be very difficult to turn down alcohol. Often it's all or nothing- if you start drinking, you'll be expected to continue (maybe for a long time), and you might be very pressured to start drinking. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it would be a problem business-wise, although it could be. It's certainly becoming more common for people to express food and drink preferences in most parts of the world. Having a plan before the event would be wise in case you don't want to drink.

 

In the Middle East we had an easy excuse for not drinking when we were offered tea and coffee because we could explain those are forbidden in our religion. No one batted an eye after that because Muslims in the Middle East are used to dealing with those sorts of prohibitions. But we've gotten the most pressure to drink in post-Soviet Muslim countries where that explanation didn't work because all the people drinking alcohol around us were Muslim.

 

 

 

:iagree:

DH has traveled for business many times to Russia. Alcohol is a way of life for them. Morning, noon, and night. During work, after work.

 

This is my concern too. I'm not against social drinking and if ds chooses to drink occasionally I'm okay with that (like I'll have a choice when he's an adult), but my concern is his tolerance level. Just another tough conversation to start now, I guess, and hope he makes wise decisions and gets the good genetics.

[Catwoman]

When naked, aren't all piercings visible? :001_huh:

 

Let's just say that if they're not visible, I'm not going to go looking for them! ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

In Japan, I had to explain more than I would have to in this country, why I cannot drink (ie. it is not an optional or cultural choice for me). You can go to bars and order fruit juice, though it is outrageously expensive. It was actually just as hard to explain why I do not smoke (which is optional for me but still a choice I want to make for my body). If you explain things and don't just refuse without explanation, people will respect your decisions. If you don't explain, people might make up reasons for you and might be offended where no offense is intended. The usual reaction I had was surprise that I had thought through and was making choices about these things instead of just following the herd.

[elegantlion]

In Japan, I had to explain more than I would have to in this country, why I cannot drink (ie. it is not an optional or cultural choice for me). You can go to bars and order fruit juice, though it is outrageously expensive. It was actually just as hard to explain why I do not smoke (which is optional for me but still a choice I want to make for my body). If you explain things and don't just refuse without explanation, people will respect your decisions. If you don't explain, people might make up reasons for you and might be offended where no offense is intended. The usual reaction I had was surprise that I had thought through and was making choices about these things instead of just following the herd.

 

Well ds does like to walk to his own beat, so I can see him offering a viable reason to not drink. We had a short conversation about it today, I imagine this will be continued portion of our cultural studies, along with many other issues.

[Sparkle]

Let's just say that if they're not visible, I'm not going to go looking for them! ;)

 

Shrinkage, dude, shrinkage. :lol:

[elegantlion]

Shrinkage, dude, shrinkage. :lol:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Rebel Yell]

I'm sorry, I can't comment on the long term consequences of that. Like the US, it probably varies a lot with different work environments.

 

DH worked for Panasonic in the US and he traveled to Japan a few times. His coworkers 'hosted' his time and were never insulted that he didn't drink. Nor was he insulted if they did (although they held off if it was a regular thing for them). Often they just worked late, and when they did go out it was for video games and Ramen.

 

BabyBaby plans on learning Japanese, and this would be HEAVEN for her! :D

[Anne in CA]

This is sort of OT, but the mention of Russia reminded me of a woman who recently visited our church. She has been starting AA groups in Russia. She said the average age for a male to live in Russia is 51 because of alcoholism.

[cindergretta]

Dh is Japanese. He was born there and moved with his mother to the US when he was 2.

 

He and his brother haven't had any issues with alcohol.

 

The ramen his family sends us is so awesome that I can't eat American ramen anymore. Ick! (Fwiw, the ones they send do NOT taste like fish. :D But then my dc eat sticky rice with "sprinkles," which are dried seafood and seaweed bits and pieces. :lol: )

[KidsHappen]

The only thing I've heard about the Japanese is they expect you to play golf. :lol:

 

I had a friend in high school who was an exchange student from Japan. She commented on how her dad hated to golf, but he had to with coworkers after work.

 

Yes, from the rooftop of one building to the rooftop of another. :001_huh: