ACLU and children's "right to literacy" in Michigan-- your thoughts?

[justamouse]

Nope. Even a poorly educated, financially poor, ignorant parent usually loves his individual child, and that's more important than the opportunity to spend one's childhood having a lifestyle prescribed by some expert somewhere.

Besides, these kids do go to school. What's going to be so different about living in an orphanage that they will magically absorb everything they hear in school?

 

Now, I could understand those who are removed from homes due to abuse/neglect being placed in foster homes in better communities, instead of foster homes within the same failing school district (unless studies show kids in foster care there do OK in school).

 

Of course, foster care reform is a whole other difficult subject.

 

Because *Culture* matters. What is around them every day really matters. The day to day knowing that they are *safe*, they will be fed, releases them to learn. Their emotional needs aren't even close to being met where they are, and unless they know those needs are met, they're too stressed to even learn.

 

Where is that taxonomy Hunter always pulls out? About the emotional needs? Darn it, I always forget the name of that one. Didn't the Drs name start with an M?

[FaithManor]

Nope. Even a poorly educated, financially poor, ignorant parent usually loves his individual child, and that's more important than the opportunity to spend one's childhood having a lifestyle prescribed by some expert somewhere.

Besides, these kids do go to school. What's going to be so different about living in an orphanage that they will magically absorb everything they hear in school?

 

Now, I could understand those who are removed from homes due to abuse/neglect being placed in foster homes in better communities, instead of foster homes within the same failing school district (unless studies show kids in foster care there do OK in school).

 

Of course, foster care reform is a whole other difficult subject.

 

 

The point of the orphanages is that there are literally hundreds of kids needing to be taken into care for abuse and neglect and there aren't foster homes for them. So, they remain. That's the point. It's not a matter of attracting a few more families into the foster care system. The sheer amount of recruitment that would need to be done is staggering and NOT going to happen. Wayne County already "borrows" beds from out-of state. There are Wayne County kids in foster care in Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois.

 

Faith

[angela in ohio]

Because *Culture* matters. What is around them every day really matters. The day to day knowing that they are *safe*, they will be fed, releases them to learn. Their emotional needs aren't even close to being met where they are, and unless they know those needs are met, they're too stressed to even learn.

 

Where is that taxonomy Hunter always pulls out? About the emotional needs? Darn it, I always forget the name of that one. Didn't the Drs name start with an M?

 

Maslow's

 

Yep, if you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you are much less concerned about learning history. Dh raised test scored drastically when he started teaching, and I think it was because we bought massive quantities of food for his kiddos. When a kid cries because you gave him some animal crackers, that's heartbreaking. Or when he can't pay attention for first period, because he is freezing because it was his brother's tunr to wear the coat they share. Much of this is parent-inflicted, though the parents are doing it from generations of learned behavior. It's hard to say where abuse begins and children should be removed...

Edited July 16, 2012 by angela in ohio

[justamouse]

Maslow's

 

Yep, if you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you are much less concerned about learning history.

 

Thank you! So bookmarking that one this time.

[SKL]

Think creatively. If we automatically punted everything to the government, nothing would get done. No one said, raise the taxes, we need orphanages! Anyway, the foster system is *already* paying for those kids.

 

No, you brought it to the discussion, it's your responsibility to link.

 

I just googled a world statistics page that listed literacy for every country. Not one country listed a literacy rate as low as 10%. Not Bangladesh, not Guatemala. Not even for women in poor Arab countries where girls are not allowed to attend school. Now keep in mind we're talking about US kids who go to compulsory school 180 days per year, for 13 years (longer if they attend Head Start or ever flunk), surrounded by books, college-educated teachers, and educational tools and technology. They also see writing all around their environment daily and on TV (which, let's face it, most of them watch). They don't have to shine shoes or hawk kleenex in the street during school hours in order to eat. All they gotta do is show up at school and they get two square meals - better nutrition than most of the world gets. Now honestly, do you believe that 90% aren't going to pick up some basic reading skills? Because I don't.

[justamouse]

Maslow's

 

Yep, if you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you are much less concerned about learning history. Dh raised test scored drastically when he started teaching, and I think it was because we bought massive quantities of food for his kiddos. When a kid cries because you gave him some animal crackers, that's heartbreaking. Or when he can't pay attention for first period, because he is freezing because it was his brother's tunr to wear the coat they share. Much of this is parent-inflicted, though the parents are doing it from generations of learned behavior.

 

:crying:

[justamouse]

I just googled a world statistics page that listed literacy for every country. Not one country listed a literacy rate as low as 10%. Not Bangladesh, not Guatemala. Not even for women in poor Arab countries where girls are not allowed to attend school. Now keep in mind we're talking about US kids who go to compulsory school 180 days per year, for 13 years (longer if they attend Head Start or ever flunk), surrounded by books, college-educated teachers, and educational tools and technology. They also see writing all around their environment daily and on TV (which, let's face it, most of them watch). They don't have to shine shoes or hawk kleenex in the street during school hours in order to eat. All they gotta do is show up at school and they get two square meals - better nutrition than most of the world gets. Now honestly, do you believe that 90% aren't going to pick up some basic reading skills? Because I don't.

 

You know, you really need to get out there and see it for yourself.

 

Have you ever, every helped in a situation like that? I have. I was a Big Sister to a below poverty family in NW NJ. My Little Sister was perpetually pregnant and her family life...I can't even begin to describe. (foul. In physical living, in emotional stability, in emotional intelligence) Her parents were illiterate, and though she could *read*, meaning decode words, her actual comprehension skills were lower that abysmal. I would say she was reading at a 4th grade level with even less comprehension. And that was 'going to school 180 days' in a bad school system, but better by far than the worst in our state.

 

Do yourself a favor and go volunteer in a situation like that before you assume our public school system is all that's needed.

[angela in ohio]

I just googled a world statistics page that listed literacy for every country. Not one country listed a literacy rate as low as 10%. Not Bangladesh, not Guatemala. Not even for women in poor Arab countries where girls are not allowed to attend school. Now keep in mind we're talking about US kids who go to compulsory school 180 days per year, for 13 years (longer if they attend Head Start or ever flunk), surrounded by books, college-educated teachers, and educational tools and technology. They also see writing all around their environment daily and on TV (which, let's face it, most of them watch). They don't have to shine shoes or hawk kleenex in the street during school hours in order to eat. All they gotta do is show up at school and they get two square meals - better nutrition than most of the world gets. Now honestly, do you believe that 90% aren't going to pick up some basic reading skills? Because I don't.

 

The press (or ACLU?) is calling it a "literacy rate," but it isn't really. The fact in question is that less than 10% are performing at the proficient level in math and reading. Here is a direct link to their scores. This is for 3rd to 8th graders. It looks like 7% are proficient in reading and 21% are partially proficient.

[SKL]

Because *Culture* matters. What is around them every day really matters. The day to day knowing that they are *safe*, they will be fed, releases them to learn. Their emotional needs aren't even close to being met where they are, and unless they know those needs are met, they're too stressed to even learn.

 

Where is that taxonomy Hunter always pulls out? About the emotional needs? Darn it, I always forget the name of that one. Didn't the Drs name start with an M?

 

Do you really think that kids growing up in an orphanage feel safe, stable, etc? Their caregivers could change three times a week and they would have nothing to say about it. They could be (and, in foster care, are) shifted from one place to another, in and out of care, etc. And, do you have any idea how common it is for kids in orphanages (and other youth institutions) to have been raped or sexually exploited, abused, involved with drugs, and deprived of basic needs? Kids know there is nobody they can tell without getting into worse trouble. I'm not feeling the sense of tranquility.

 

I'm an adoptive mom and I'm saying that there's nothing that takes the place of a child's biological parent. A lack of educational enthusiasm or middle-class lifestyle is no excuse to strip a child of his roots. I find this line of discussion extremely disturbing.

[SKL]

You know, you really need to get out there and see it for yourself.

 

Have you ever, every helped in a situation like that? I have. I was a Big Sister to a below poverty family in NW NJ. My Little Sister was perpetually pregnant and her family life...I can't even begin to describe. (foul. In physical living, in emotional stability, in emotional intelligence) Her parents were illiterate, and though she could *read*, meaning decode words, her actual comprehension skills were lower that abysmal. I would say she was reading at a 4th grade level with even less comprehension. And that was 'going to school 180 days' in a bad school system, but better by far than the worst in our state.

 

Do yourself a favor and go volunteer in a situation like that before you assume our public school system is all that's needed.

 

Excuse me, but I've volunteered for thousands of hours and was on the board of our local umbrella literacy charity (as well as a literacy volunteer) for years. I've tutored at least a hundred kids and worked with a couple hundred in the foster care system. This is in a big city very similar to Detroit.

 

I never said our public school system is all that's needed. I said literacy in any US city ain't 10% and I said you don't put kids in orphanages to address systemic educational problems.

[justamouse]

Do you really think that kids growing up in an orphanage feel safe, stable, etc? Their caregivers could change three times a week and they would have nothing to say about it. They could be (and, in foster care, are) shifted from one place to another, in and out of care, etc. And, do you have any idea how common it is for kids in orphanages (and other youth institutions) to have been raped or sexually exploited, abused, involved with drugs, and deprived of basic needs? Kids know there is nobody they can tell without getting into worse trouble. I'm not feeling the sense of tranquility.

 

I'm an adoptive mom and I'm saying that there's nothing that takes the place of a child's biological parent. A lack of educational enthusiasm or middle-class lifestyle is no excuse to strip a child of his roots. I find this line of discussion extremely disturbing.

 

I said before-I guess you didn't read that part- where it would need to be an excellent situation, and there have been excellent orphanages.

 

And you know what, how are parents who can't afford to feed their kids, to, and Angela said, taking turns sleeping on a coat, whose very *lives* are in jeopardy, 'middle class'? Earned Income Credit isn't middle class. I've gotten it, believe me, I know.

[justamouse]

Excuse me, but I've volunteered for thousands of hours and was on the board of our local umbrella literacy charity (as well as a literacy volunteer) for years. I've tutored at least a hundred kids and worked with a couple hundred in the foster care system. This is in a big city very similar to Detroit.

 

I never said our public school system is all that's needed. I said literacy in any US city ain't 10% and I said you don't put kids in orphanages to address systemic educational problems.

 

I didn't say you did. You may want to go back and actually reread what I said.

[MommyK]

It's not reasonable, and it's also not accurate - that's my point. On average, a school spends about a quarter of its salary and benefit allotment on benefits. So he's saying they spend 120% of their budget on employee expenses? ;) How do they pay for the buidlings and supplies? I think he or you may be mixing his statements up. School districts are required to pay 20-something percent of the *salaries paid* amount to the state for retirement; that's not 20-something percent of their total budget.

 

Sigh..

 

I must be an idiot when it comes to these things. You obviously are much better informed. I apologize for interjecting what wasn't totally accurate. This was only my understanding from a meeting held this year. Obviously I misunderstood.

[VeritasMama]

I could offer a few graphic metaphors for it, but basically, offering "phonics" as a solution to this problem doesn't even come to the level of bandaid.

 

Of course the solution will include education, which must include proper reading instruction. But, honestly? These children have had access to adequate reading instruction and education. It isn't a solution for the persons/beings/situation becausing applying education on top of the generations of problems doesn't work.

 

More of what isn't working isn't effective.

 

They don't have access to adequate reading instruction and education if the literacy rate is only 15%. Reading remediation that includes direct phonics instruction has been effective in populations that are dealing with many of the problems we are talking about, such as in prisons.

 

The type of "education" I am speaking of would include things like hygiene, nutrition, communication, general life skills. But how can you even tackle that if they can't read?

 

ETA: I'm not saying the teachers are to blame for the "inadequate" instruction, I'm saying that most modern curriculum simply won't cut it for kids who are struggling, they need intesive phonics instruction. As a former teacher, I know that this simply is not how teachers are taught to teach themselves.

Edited July 16, 2012 by VeritasMama

[readinmom]

It's not that simple. In Michigan, teachers pay into both Social Security and the state teacher's retirement. So they are paying Social Security. Like many other industries, part of the salary compensation is also retirement benefits. It is not uncommon in many fields for companies to pay those benefits. Yes, school districts do pay part of a teacher's retirement, as well as a portion of Social Security, as with any other employer. Recently, Michigan passed a law aimed at reducing the number of long-term (expensive) teachers in the system; as part of this law, the state now takes 6% of current teacher's salaries to pay for the retirement of those teachers. In addition, each teacher pays a portion of the state retirement as well.

 

Schools are a service industry; of course a large part of their budget goes toward salary and benefits.

 

(Not a teacher's union fan by any stretch, but this isn't really the problem.)

 

Unfortunately in California teachers do not qualify for Social Security benefits. If you want to assure yourself of a good retirement, you have to go elsewhere. You do get a pension, if it's still there in twenty years:confused:.

 

It's true that districts pay an astronomical amount for employees. I sat through a presentation six years ago at a board meeting, and at the time, 40% of the budget went for healthcare plans.

 

It doesn't matter how much money is thrown at the problem of illiteracy. Saying we are going spend x amount of dollars on a program does not solve it. Sitting down with a kid, book in hand, will.

[Joanne]

They don't have access to adequate reading instruction and education if the literacy rate is only 15%. Reading remediation that includes direct phonics instruction has been effective in populations that are dealing with many of the problems we are talking about, such as in prisons.

 

The type of "education" I am speaking of would include things like hygiene, nutrition, communication, general life skills. But how can you even tackle that if they can't read?

 

ETA: I'm not saying the teachers are to blame for the "inadequate" instruction, I'm saying that most modern curriculum simply won't cut it for kids who are struggling, they need intesive phonics instruction. As a former teacher, I know that this simply is not how teachers are taught to teach themselves.

 

The problem isn't instruction, or curriculum. The remedy, therefore, isn't instruction or curriculum.

[angela in ohio]

Unfortunately in California teachers do not qualify for Social Security benefits. If you want to assure yourself of a good retirement, you have to go elsewhere. You do get a pension, if it's still there in twenty years:confused:.

 

It's true that districts pay an astronomical amount for employees. I sat through a presentation six years ago at a board meeting, and at the time, 40% of the budget went for healthcare plans.

 

It doesn't matter how much money is thrown at the problem of illiteracy. Saying we are going spend x amount of dollars on a program does not solve it. Sitting down with a kid, book in hand, will.

 

I don't know what the law is regarding health care costs for school employees in California (I only commented earlier because we were discussing Michigan, and I know Michigan budgets intimately,) but I googled out of curiosity and found this chart with the average expenditures for a California school district. The average California school district spends 19% of its budget on all employee benefits combined.

 

Anyway, Michigan has passed a rash of school budget laws in the past few years, so it's a whole interesting set of circumstances. I don't really know much about other states.

Edited July 16, 2012 by angela in ohio

[stripe]

Assuming the pensions don't tank, it's a pretty nice deal. I know someone who left her job as chair of a college education dept to teach in public schools just for the pension (did not exist at the college). I also have relatives who retired fairly young (~55) with their public school pensions. Did it lose value in the early 2000s? Yes, but they didn't go back to work.

 

I don't know why Social Security alone would be considered a luxurious retirement alternative.

 

All I have to say is, the next 20-30 years should be pretty interesting.

[readinmom]

I don't know what the law is regarding health care costs for school employees in California (I only commented earlier because we were discussing Michigan, and I know Michigan budgets intimately,) but I googled out of curiosity and found this chart with the average expenditures for a California school district. The average California school district spends 19% of its budget on all employee benefits combined.

 

Anyway, Michigan has passed a rash of school budget laws in the past few years, so it's a whole interesting set of circumstances. I don't really know much about other states.

 

No concerns! I didn't take it personally. I just wish that people would sit down and read with their kids. How to make this happen is another story. I can't imagine growing up without books and the love of reading.

[stripe]

Not even for women in poor Arab countries where girls are not allowed to attend school.

 

I am just curious what countries these are. Yemen, which is about as poor as it gets, has universal and free compulsory education for children, although they don't actually enforce attendance. The World Bank, however, says school attendance for girls has gone from less than 30% to more than 60% in about 13 years.

 

Some poor or formerly poor countries (such as Saudi Arabia) only recently (1970-1980s) developed an educational system so the literacy rate among people under, say, 40-50 years old is vastly higher than for the elderly.

 

The only country I know of that has specifically forbidden girls from attending schools was Afghanistan under the Taliban, and that is not an Arab country. It is an Asian country that has been at war for decades. And they do now attend schools.

 

It's also worth noting than some girls around the world access education via tutoring or small class situations or private schools, rather than government run school. Programs (illegal, mind you) like this did exist nonetheless under the Taliban as well.

[SKL]

I said before-I guess you didn't read that part- where it would need to be an excellent situation, and there have been excellent orphanages.

 

And you know what, how are parents who can't afford to feed their kids, to, and Angela said, taking turns sleeping on a coat, whose very *lives* are in jeopardy, 'middle class'? Earned Income Credit isn't middle class. I've gotten it, believe me, I know.

 

I said "lack of . . . a middle class lifestyle."

 

Please tell me more about the excellent orphanages you've seen and about the kids' profiles and outcomes.

 

Don't get me wrong - I support third world orphanages and on my visits, I've found them much better than the garbage dump that the girls' parents left them on. Clean, efficient, mission-driven, sensible. But would I remove a child from a loving family to live there? No.

[justamouse]

I said "lack of . . . a middle class lifestyle."

 

Please tell me more about the excellent orphanages you've seen and about the kids' profiles and outcomes.

 

Don't get me wrong - I support third world orphanages and on my visits, I've found them much better than the garbage dump that the girls' parents left them on. Clean, efficient, mission-driven, sensible. But would I remove a child from a loving family to live there? No.

 

What makes you think a US orphanage would look anything like an overseas orphanage?

 

If the kid is in foster care, what loving family do you speak of? The foster family?

 

And, so what is your answer to the generational poverty and ignorance? School? That experiment hasn't worked. Added classes? Throw more $ at it? BEfore care? After care? What?

[Bang!Zoom!]

VM, Highland Park does have active charters which are not at issue with the ACLU suit.

 

They are focusing on 3 particular schools in that district, all in traditional PS framework. So in the regard that charters ARE public schools, you can see a wee bit of spin goin' on here....

 

Here's a link to a story from the Detroit News on it today.

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120716/OPINION01/207160307/1008/opinion01/Editorial-ACLU-s-Highland-Park-lawsuit-blames-wrong-defendants

 

It says in there that Parker is looking to charter the entire district...

 

They are obviously headed that way, but the award of the contract and to whom is going to be the deal maker, or the deal breaker for these kids.

 

I just have to paste a passage/stat from that article, because it's such a killer statement..here it is:

 

 

Following years of mismanagement, Gov. Rick Snyder intervened earlier this year and instated an emergency manager. The school board fought the intercession, but the governor prevailed. The district had run out of money, even though it was bringing in more state and federal aid than most other districts in the state. Highland Park also managed to accrue the largest weight of debt in the state — 60 percent of its general fund revenue. In addition, the district spent $19,600 per student in 2011. That's more than what's spent in Bloomfield Hills.

Edited July 16, 2012 by one*mom

[SKL]

What makes you think a US orphanage would look anything like an overseas orphanage?

 

If the kid is in foster care, what loving family do you speak of? The foster family?

 

And, so what is your answer to the generational poverty and ignorance? School? That experiment hasn't worked. Added classes? Throw more $ at it? BEfore care? After care? What?

 

Because we used to have orphanages here and that was the reason they shut them all down. How would you propose to guarantee that the US orphanages would not have those problems? Cameras in the toilets?

 

Someone appeared to be suggesting that we remove kids into orphanages from families who fail a test of "is your home pro-education enough." I don't think kids are currently in foster care for that reason. I would hope kids are removed from their homes only in cases of severe or repeated abuse/neglect, and that if their issue is having access to food etc., the agencies would support them rather than break up the family.

 

What would I have the schools do? Have you ever read the book "Marva Collins' Way"? That mindset might be helpful here. She was a successful teacher / school founder in inner city Chicago. Interestingly, she also (like a previous poster) believed in focusing on phonics. She also had great ideas for building the kids' knowledge, thinking skills, and self-esteem in a short period of time. She did her work on a very small budget.

 

When you attack this kind of problem, I think the main thrust has to be at the lower grade levels. The older kids can be offered remediation to the extent they are willing to accept it, but attitudinally, many may not be moldable any more. They may benefit from adult education services once they are more mature. But there's no point beating a dead horse.

 

The younger grades won't have as much need for remediation. Also, the nice thing about the phonics approach is that it isn't class-based. You don't have to postpone reading while you familiarize the kids with the middle-class vocabulary you're going to use or whatever. (And I do not agree with taking up precious class time with hygiene skills etc. You don't have to have a clean face in order to read.) I think that instead of pussy-footing around with social studies concepts etc., the first 2-3 grades should be focused intensely on the 3 R's. They can learn about ni hao and Hannah's Two Mommies later.

 

Someone mentioned volunteering before. I have observed that the leadership in struggling schools tends to not welcome volunteers. I'm not sure why they don't, but they should. They should get the literacy volunteers' commitment that they will consistently come to help one or more particular kids for a long stretch of time. The benefit (other than the one-on-one) is that the child begins to feel that someone sees him as having value and future potential. I've seen attitudes change so much as a result. Kids who were failing had the opportunity to feel smart for a moment. Priceless.

[mlbuchina]

 

In the first place, once upon a time our schools managed to teach the 3R's to children of illiterate immigrants who worked around the clock. What was the secret? What can't we do now, that we used to do, to teach the children of uneducated people? Isn't that what school is for, to teach a child the necessary info and skills that he can't learn at home?

 

 

 

School systems used to be under the authority of the community in which it was located. The community had the power chose curricula and materials that worked for their children through their vote for the people on the school board. Then came the nationalization of the system with the Department of Education, and the power of the local community was taken away. Local school boards used to be the top authority, but now they have to report to the DOE, which doesn't know about the local community and it's needs at all.

[ElizabethB]

When taught the right way, they can learn, and it changes their whole opinion of themselves. When I first start with my students, many of them are hostile and surly and have poor self esteem. When they learn to read well, especially those who gain 2+ grade levels and those who start being able to read grade level passages above their current grade level, they come to life. Their whole demeanor changes. They start to think of themselves as smart and have hope for their future.

 

One of my LA students was not happy and was "volunteered" by her mom for the program. I though I might need more adult volunteers just to keep her in hand! However, after a few lessons, she started to realize how much she was learning and her attitude did a 180. She became a big proponent and actually started keeping her friends in line as well as paying ardent attention herself. She would tell them, "Hey, be quiet, I want to be able to read those 12th grade level passages like those other kids she taught." Our move was a bit earlier than I planned, so she was only at 8th grade level passages when I had to move, but that was still several grades above her grade level and was a great improvement from her previous abilities. She promised to study my DVDs and her well-earned copy of Webster's Speller and gave me a big hug when I left. (I only gave a printed copy of the Speller when they worked hard and promised to study it and treat it well. That increased its value and desirability greatly!)

 

As I said before, these children do have other issues going on, and I don't argue about that or that those needs should be addressed as well. There is a reason my first choice for tutoring children in these situations is working with groups that are caring for some of their other needs. But, for the literacy portion of their needs, intensive, systematic, analytic phonics with nonsense words and syllables works and makes a big difference in their lives.

 

They are not getting this type of reading instruction in their schools. They are getting lists of sight words with some intrinsic phonics. Some of them know a few of the letter sounds, but none of them know all the phonograms. Most of them only know most of the consonants and a few vowel sounds. Some of the LA children knew even less than that.

 

Here is a before and after average class score from one of my inner city classes on average sight words missed and average phonics words missed on an equal numbered word list. (The MWIA from my reading test page.) They improved, on average, 2.2 reading grade levels after 18 hours of teaching. (Group instruction.)

 

Sight words missed before: 3.6 Phonics words missed before: 17

Sight words missed after: 1.7 Phonics words missed after: 8

Edited July 16, 2012 by ElizabethB

[lionfamily1999]

When taught the right way, they can learn, and it changes their whole opinion of themselves. When I first start with my students, many of them are hostile and surly and have poor self esteem. When they learn to read well, especially those who gain 2+ grade levels and those who start being able to read grade level passages above their current grade level, they come to life. Their whole demeanor changes. They start to think of themselves as smart and have hope for their future.

 

One of my LA students was not happy and was "volunteered" by her mom for the program. I though I might need more adult volunteers just to keep her in hand! However, after a few lessons, she started to realize how much she was learning and her attitude did a 180. She became a big proponent and actually started keeping her friends in line as well as paying ardent attention herself. She would tell them, "Hey, be quiet, I want to be able to read those 12th grade level passages like those other kids she taught." Our move was a bit earlier than I planned, so she was only at 8th grade level passages when I had to move, but that was still several grades above her grade level and was a great improvement from her previous abilities. She promised to study my DVDs and her well-earned copy of Webster's Speller and gave me a big hug when I left. (I only gave a printed copy of the Speller when they worked hard and promised to study it and treat it well. That increased its value and desirability greatly!)

 

As I said before, these children do have other issues going on, and I don't argue about that or that those needs should be addressed as well. There is a reason my first choice for tutoring children in these situations is working with groups that are caring for some of their other needs. But, for the literacy portion of their needs, intensive, systematic, analytic phonics with nonsense words and syllables works and makes a big difference in their lives.

 

They are not getting this type of reading instruction in their schools. They are getting lists of sight words with some intrinsic phonics. Some of them know a few of the letter sounds, but none of them know all the phonograms. Most of them only know most of the consonants and a few vowel sounds. Some of the LA children knew even less than that.

 

Here is a before and after average class score from one of my inner city classes on average sight words missed and average phonics words missed on an equal numbered word list. (The MWIA from my reading test page.) They improved, on average, 2.2 reading grade levels after 18 hours of teaching. (Group instruction.)

 

Sight words missed before: 3.6 Phonics words missed before: 17

Sight words missed after: 1.7 Phonics words missed after: 8

 

Way to go :D We need more people like you.

[ElizabethB]

Way to go :D We need more people like you.

 

:blush: Thanks.

[LibraryLover]

Even considering the environment?

 

That is the whole point of the thread and the article. These kids are being passed from grade to grade with no real learning go on.

 

 

Ayup. Why are they being passed on? Because ALL of their teachers are uncaring, ignorant wall-street traders looking for their next bonus? Hardly. (And I am trying not to scream hardly in all CAPS!)

 

 

The problems are tremendous. Good that the ACLU, in whatever way, is trying to protect the (civil? educationial ?) rights of these children. Someone up-thread pointed out that education is not a 'constitutional right', that education is the responsibility of the parent, which *technically*, Bill of Rights -wise, is true. I sited the Brown v. Board of Education Amendment earlier in the discussion, although their have been other attempts. Pretty much, the state/federal will do nothing unless forced.

 

 

I don't see where we disagree, honestly: this is a big fat mess caused by generational poverty, racism, greed, and more. As a nation, we are all to blame for this mess, as well as other educational fiascos; fiascos which don't seem to happen to children in other wealthy western nations across the pond.

Edited July 17, 2012 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

School systems used to be under the authority of the community in which it was located. The community had the power chose curricula and materials that worked for their children through their vote for the people on the school board. Then came the nationalization of the system with the Department of Education, and the power of the local community was taken away. Local school boards used to be the top authority, but now they have to report to the DOE, which doesn't know about the local community and it's needs at all.

 

The strongest school systems in other countries have a top- down approach, which makes so much more sense than a district-by-district approach. All of the highest scoring (if you are keeping score) nations have a more standardized curriculum with specific goals-- with curricula and training to match. In the US, we have some secondary schools with high-- end labs and research facilities-- at the same time we have schools with no labs at all.

 

One state's 4th grade can look like another's states's 9th grade. That's crazy.

 

It really is about money and consistency. And giving a danm.

 

You can't expect a school in an area with mostly public housing to perform anywhere near as well as one in a tree-lined school district surrounded by Victorians and Colonials (owned by generationally well-nourished and educated physicians, attorneys, firefighters, career military, accountants etc). It's impossible for the majority of students in poverty districts to keep up, no matter how strong the bootstraps. There are always going to be great teachers everywhere; there are always going to be students from the depths of despair who do well, but do we really expect such miracles can be performed consistently, no matter how great a few 3rd grade teachers might be?

 

Miracles are not the norm.

Edited July 17, 2012 by LibraryLover

[umsami]

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see somebody (Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation maybe? State of Michigan?) post some sort of challenge regarding Highland Park. Call on experts all around the world to get behind this one failing district.

 

Let's bring in a team from Finland to teach at one school. (Would they? Who knows, but why not ask.)

 

Let's ask the Catholic Schools to take over one, or various charters like KIPP.

 

Maybe the Detroit Waldorf school could be involved.

 

Look at sex segregated schools perhaps at the Middle/High School level.

 

Look at eliminating "grades"--and having people work at their level.

 

Let's ask Whole Foods or Trader Joe's (both have stores in suburban Detroit) to provide healthful food for the kids--3 meals/day...even in the summer. Perhaps each school could have culinary students who do the actual cooking--and even for high school kids, that could be a vocational program. I'm sure there are a few abandoned buildings which could be razed to make way for gardens to help support the school.

 

A good friend is Mormon, and I have to say, her church really seems to have teaching morals, homemaking skills, finances, etc. down pat. Maybe they'd come in and help the city.

 

Perhaps the Michigan National Guard could be called in to provide security if the police aren't doing the job.

 

Have the kids doing community projects--even if part of their daily PE is picking up trash. Show pride in your community. Try and make it better.

 

Move to a year-long school year, with planned breaks/activities (so not stuck at home).

 

Get the local YMCA involved for daily activities.

 

Get a good vocational training program, perhaps modeled after Germany.

 

Perhaps even give the older kids the options of living in sex segregated dorms or some such thing--for those who want to escape their home life.

 

Do all of this for 3-5 years and see what happens. Can you change things? Yes, it would cost a bunch--but the lessons learned could be monumental to education throughout the school. Of course, they might be right back where they started, but I have to believe some difference would be made.

 

So much for my pipe dream. :)

[VeritasMama]

The strongest school systems in other countries have a top- down approach, which makes so much more sense than a district-by-district approach. All of the highest scoring (if you are keeping score) nations have a more standardized curriculum with specific goals-- with curricula and training to match. In the US, we have some secondary schools with high-- end labs and research facilities-- at the same time we have schools with no labs at all.

 

One state's 4th grade can look like another's states's 9th grade. That's crazy.

 

It really is about money and consistency. And giving a danm.

 

You can't expect a school in an area with mostly public housing to perform anywhere near as well as one in a tree-lined school district surrounded by Victorians and Colonials (owned by generationally well-nourished and educated physicians, attorneys, firefighters, career military, accountants etc). It's impossible for the majority of students in poverty districts to keep up, no matter how strong the bootstraps. There are always going to be great teachers everywhere; there are always going to be students from the depths of despair who do well, but do we really expect such miracles can be performed consistently, no matter how great a few 3rd grade teachers might be?

 

Miracles are not the norm.

 

The top down social programs and govt agencies work well in other socialist countries because they have a smaller population that is not as culturally diverse. The US has a large population that is too culturally diverse for a one size fits all solution. The individual school districts all have such vastly different needsm that is why local control by the parents is so important, and why we need to fix these systems so the parents have more control and are empowered and informed so they can fix the problems. Of course this is easier said than done, but a top down approach is exactly what has caused some of these issues.

[VeritasMama]

The problem isn't instruction, or curriculum. The remedy, therefore, isn't instruction or curriculum.

 

I agree that the problem is not caused by instruction or curriculum, but instruction and curriculum can be part of the remedy. As ElizabethB explained above, these schools are not using intensive phonics, and it can be very successful in motivating kids to learn. They are already spending 40 hours a week in school, why not make sure they are learning to read? It can't hurt, it can only help.

[LibraryLover]

The top down social programs and govt agencies work well in other socialist countries because they have a smaller population that is not as culturally diverse. The US has a large population that is too culturally diverse for a one size fits all solution. The individual school districts all have such vastly different needsm that is why local control by the parents is so important, and why we need to fix these systems so the parents have more control and are empowered and informed so they can fix the problems. Of course this is easier said than done, but a top down approach is exactly what has caused some of these issues.

 

Tell me more. I am always wanting more knowledge!

Edited July 17, 2012 by LibraryLover

[VeritasMama]

VM, Highland Park does have active charters which are not at issue with the ACLU suit.

 

They are focusing on 3 particular schools in that district, all in traditional PS framework. So in the regard that charters ARE public schools, you can see a wee bit of spin goin' on here....

 

Here's a link to a story from the Detroit News on it today.

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120716/OPINION01/207160307/1008/opinion01/Editorial-ACLU-s-Highland-Park-lawsuit-blames-wrong-defendants

 

It says in there that Parker is looking to charter the entire district...

 

They are obviously headed that way, but the award of the contract and to whom is going to be the deal maker, or the deal breaker for these kids.

 

I just have to paste a passage/stat from that article, because it's such a killer statement..here it is:

 

 

Following years of mismanagement, Gov. Rick Snyder intervened earlier this year and instated an emergency manager. The school board fought the intercession, but the governor prevailed. The district had run out of money, even though it was bringing in more state and federal aid than most other districts in the state. Highland Park also managed to accrue the largest weight of debt in the state — 60 percent of its general fund revenue. In addition, the district spent $19,600 per student in 2011. That's more than what's spent in Bloomfield Hills.

 

It sounds as though the monopoly will stay in tact, it will just be privately controlled, and so these families still have no real choices.

 

The US spends more on education per student than any other country. If money were a solution, our tests scores would be the highest in the world.

[Bang!Zoom!]

The monopoly is actually changing if you look at it from a birds-eye view. What used to be locally controlled malfeasance is now going to be corporate-speak malfeasance.

 

Last I read, three corporations were bidding and being discussed for the HP schools at risk.

 

The ones up in Muskegon and Grand Rapids were mentioned somewhere in my reading. I started looking at them, but now have lost track.

 

There's probably some interesting things going on there. $$$$$

 

If the oversight was done and issued by say... the U of M as the sponsoring institution, that would be amazing as heck.

[LibraryLover]

The top down social programs and govt agencies work well in other socialist countries because they have a smaller population that is not as culturally diverse. The US has a large population that is too culturally diverse for a one size fits all solution. The individual school districts all have such vastly different needsm that is why local control by the parents is so important, and why we need to fix these systems so the parents have more control and are empowered and informed so they can fix the problems. Of course this is easier said than done, but a top down approach is exactly what has caused some of these issues.

 

Culturally diverse, yes.

 

Economically diverse? There are rich and poor everywhere. But you won't loose every dime if your child ends up in sick in the hospital, and you won't be living in your car.

Edited July 17, 2012 by LibraryLover

[VeritasMama]

Way to go :D We need more people like you.

 

:iagree:

[Bang!Zoom!]

There's a new round of complaints coming in on the civil rights aspect and the schools there.

 

35 suits filed against Detroit for not meeting the needs of bilingual students in the area.

 

Really interesting.

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120716/SCHOOLS/207160331/Parents-file-civil-rights-complaints-against-DPS

 

Intro:

 

Detroit — More than 35 complaints have been filed with the U.S. Department of Education against Detroit Public Schools, accusing the district of a range of failures, from not meeting the educational needs of bilingual students to pulling effective principals out of buildings.

 

Parents and community members began filing the complaints in May and June and have continued in recent weeks, demanding that federal officials investigate their complaints and pressing DPS officials to address their concerns.

 

 

 

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120716/SCHOOLS/207160331#ixzz20qq9WtSS

[lionfamily1999]

I agree that the problem is not caused by instruction or curriculum, but instruction and curriculum can be part of the remedy. As ElizabethB explained above, these schools are not using intensive phonics, and it can be very successful in motivating kids to learn. They are already spending 40 hours a week in school, why not make sure they are learning to read? It can't hurt, it can only help.

 

:iagree:

 

While I don't know that literacy is a right, it seems that literacy should fall under the right to an education. It seems like the "three Rs" are the most basic definition of 'education.'

 

The way phonics was taught to dh, our older two dc and myself (all in ps) was very different from how I am now teaching it to our youngest. We had one year of phonics in K. After that all 'reading' was comprehension based. Luke has been learning phonics for almost a year now and he has another year of phonics ahead of him. He reads well, but there is still a mountain of rules ahead of him. I have to wonder if ps took a long term approach to phonics (2 or 3 years) how many more children would become high schoolers who could read well.

[melmichigan]

School systems used to be under the authority of the community in which it was located. The community had the power chose curricula and materials that worked for their children through their vote for the people on the school board. Then came the nationalization of the system with the Department of Education, and the power of the local community was taken away. Local school boards used to be the top authority, but now they have to report to the DOE, which doesn't know about the local community and it's needs at all.

 

Actually that wasn't the case here.

in a state that upholds local control of schools, the blame for the district's downfall lies primarily with the school board — which isn't directly named in the lawsuit.

It is only recently that the emergency managers can override the local school board. Edited July 17, 2012 by melmichigan

[VeritasMama]

Actually that wasn't the case here.

 

It is only recently that the emergency managers can override the local school board.

 

Who is running the local school board? How much of a say do the parents actually have? I've lived in districts where the local school board was almost hostile to parents voicing their concerns. I am not sure what the situation is here, but just because a "local school board" is in control does not ensure the parents are. It would be interesting to hear from someone who actually lives there.

[Bang!Zoom!]

That documentary shows parents being taken out by security guards. They have 2 minutes at each announced meeting to voice their concerns.

 

After 2 minutes of talking, they are escorted out.

[kubiac]

All I know is that (a) Detroit makes me sad, and (b) next time I fill up a box with extra children's books I'm shipping it to Highland Park in honor of this thread. Thanks for the very interesting discussion, guys.

[melmichigan]

just because a "local school board" is in control does not ensure the parents are. It would be interesting to hear from someone who actually lives there.

 

:iagree:I was only commenting on the DOE reference. Michigan upholds local control of the school districts, i.e. the school board.

 

That documentary shows parents being taken out by security guards. They have 2 minutes at each announced meeting to voice their concerns.

 

After 2 minutes of talking, they are escorted out.

 

Which one? :)

[Bang!Zoom!]

This one.

 

We are about 27 miles away from the one in question. We still hold property there.

 

My dd is zoned for the DPS system if we were there. She'll never step foot in one. Not over my dead body.

[VeritasMama]

Tell me more. I am always wanting more knowledge!

 

This was mentioned by another person in an earlier post, but the Harlem Children's Zone is an example of what I am talking about. It is a charter school that caters to a specific neighborhood and the needs of those 100 blocks. It has been very successful.

 

http://www.hcz.org/about-us/history

[VeritasMama]

Culturally diverse, yes.

 

Economically diverse? There are rich and poor everywhere. But you won't loose every dime if your child ends up in sick in the hospital, and you won't be living in your car.

 

I agree there are rich and poor everywhere, but your comment about a sick child is a bit of a hyperbole. My children have racked up close to a million dollars in medical bills, one of my sons had four surgeries by the time he was 4 weeks old, and we don't live in our car. That is thanks to private insurance and the fact that excellent, non profit children's hospitals are willing to take payments based on your income. Our health care system has problems, but it is sad that all the great non-profit hospitals who provide such great care to our poor, often for free, get demonized along with the others.

 

It is much easier for a centralized govt to run a nationalized health care service when they are only serving 40 million people, or even 140 million people as compared to 300 million.

[thefragile7393]

I agree there are rich and poor everywhere, but your comment about a sick child is a bit of a hyperbole. My children have racked up close to a million dollars in medical bills, one of my sons had four surgeries by the time he was 4 weeks old, and we don't live in our car. That is thanks to private insurance and the fact that excellent, non profit children's hospitals are willing to take payments based on your income. Our health care system has problems, but it is sad that all the great non-profit hospitals who provide such great care to our poor, often for free, get demonized along with the others.

 

It is much easier for a centralized govt to run a nationalized health care service when they are only serving 40 million people, or even 140 million people as compared to 300 million.

Unfortunately this isn't possible for everyone. Not all can afford private insurance and while many hospitals do take payments, it can still be a big hardship on a family. I have seen the families of some of my friends go through this and at least one has filed bankruptcy due to the bills. You are fortunate, not everyone is.

[VeritasMama]

Unfortunately this isn't possible for everyone. Not all can afford private insurance and while many hospitals do take payments, it can still be a big hardship on a family. I have seen the families of some of my friends go through this and at least one has filed bankruptcy due to the bills. You are fortunate, not everyone is.

 

Yes, we are very fortunate. My dh grew up without insurance, so I know what that looks like as well.