More church pressure, WWYD? Long, again...

[Elizabeth in MN]

I would talk directly to the pastor and explain the situation to him. If s/he doesn't relent them move on.

[Anne in CA]

We have been in your shoes, which is why I can emphatically say "Shake the dust off your shoes, walk away and never look back".

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, you will lose contact with people that you love, but the leadership of this church appears to be so legalistic that only good works organized by them are holy. They are not mature enough to lead your family, and your family will not grow, because the people leading you spiritually are not more mature than you are.

 

I had a pastor like this and it caused my children a lot of grief to lose the church they had spent three and a half years in, but it was sooo worth it in the end. Yes, for a year I felt bad, like I had divorced my church, but the feeling went away, especially since the new church was so much healthier than the last one. The church we left for is far from perfect, but there are many things about it that I adore, one of them being respect for the members from the leadership, not just the leadership demanding respect from attenders. The fact that they do not recognize your chronic pain is immature to say the least, they are not respecting what you do do.

[Photo Ninja]

We experienced a similar situation. In our case, the pastor had a five year plan and he expected everyone to buy into it and make it happen. When someone did not do what he wanted or needed done in some ministry position, he pressured privately and publicly. The pastor would teach specifically at certain people, and everyone knew who they were. It was his passive-aggressive way of manipulating, to get people to make the decisions he wanted them to make without actually telling them to their face - unless they went to him to talk about it,when he would tell them to their face that he was giving them an opportunity to make the 'right' decision on their own. (The "right" decision was what the pastor wanted people to do.)

 

In our case, we were very involved in ministry in our community, not just in the church, where we were also leading ministries in the church. The pastor always wanted more. When I was pregnant with my third child in three years, I was on bed rest for several months. I had to stop leading a couple of the small groups and Bible studies I had been leading because I physically couldn't do it anymore. I was told by the pastor that I was out of God's will because now someone else would have to take up the slack, and I shouldn't stop what I was doing. My health was not as important as church ministry. I was told that ministry in the community didn't count (count for what?) and I should be involved only in ministry through the church. We were told that hsing was a bad idea because it took time away from serving in the church, so we were pressured to put our dc into the ps system. The pastor told several of us that we need to stop having babies because our children were taking our time away from serving in the church. I could go on, but basically we were pressured every time we were at church, through phone calls and at meetings. We held our ground and told him that while he said God wanted us to lead some ministry, we would pray about it and wait for God to tell us Himself. The pastor was pretty mad at us for taking this stance. We served extensively and were involved in ministries, just not all the specific ministries that the pastor wanted done that were part of his five year plan.

 

We waited a couple more years trying to work it out, continued to serve in the areas where God had called us, and continued to stand against the increasing pressure from the pastor, staff and deacons. It was very difficult and made me not want to go to church at all, to be honest, because I was tired of the pressure and from trying to have godly responses to the pressure and comments. We did have several meetings with the pastor to discuss the situation, and a couple times we had a mediator to help, but the pastor would not accept that God had a different plan for our lives than he had.

 

We ended up leaving that church, but not without doing all we could to make it work out. We only spoke to the pastor and leadership about what was happening because we didn't want to include other church members in what was happening to us. We didn't want to cause any rifts or discord and worked hard on that. In hindsight, I think we should have left far sooner. It would have been healthier for dh and me.

 

All that to say, be honest with yourselves about the situation you are in and how healthy it is for your family. I do think you need to approach the pastor directly to be sure your interpretation of what is happening is what the pastor intends to communicate, just in case there has been a misunderstanding. Let him know what you are feeling about the continued comments and pressure. Your pastor may not accept your reasons for not being more involved in the church, but that is not your responsibility. You can make your decision about staying or finding another church based on the pastor's response during your conversation. If the pressure continues even when the people making the comments know your health situation and your current ministry commitments, then you can consider whether you should find a new church. Even if you leave that church, you can continue friendships with those people you care about.

[TranquilMind]

I want to add, too that our pastor made the statement today, that being sick or tired is not a reason to fore-go serving in the church.

 

 

He's right. But how you serve is between you and God. Some things are not possible to some families at the present time. That's just the way it is.

 

I think you owe it to the Pastor to tell him so. Obviously, he's not getting it otherwise. You are doing a favor to the next person who would be pressured.

 

Maybe he won't listen. But at least you would have done all you could if you bring it up.

[TranquilMind]

We experienced a similar situation. In our case, the pastor had a five year plan and he expected everyone to buy into it and make it happen. When someone did not do what he wanted or needed done in some ministry position, he pressured privately and publicly. The pastor would teach specifically at certain people, and everyone knew who they were. It was his passive-aggressive way of manipulating, to get people to make the decisions he wanted them to make without actually telling them to their face - unless they went to him to talk about it,when he would tell them to their face that he was giving them an opportunity to make the 'right' decision on their own. (The "right" decision was what the pastor wanted people to do.)

 

In our case, we were very involved in ministry in our community, not just in the church, where we were also leading ministries in the church. The pastor always wanted more. When I was pregnant with my third child in three years, I was on bed rest for several months. I had to stop leading a couple of the small groups and Bible studies I had been leading because I physically couldn't do it anymore. I was told by the pastor that I was out of God's will because now someone else would have to take up the slack, and I shouldn't stop what I was doing. My health was not as important as church ministry. I was told that ministry in the community didn't count (count for what?) and I should be involved only in ministry through the church. We were told that hsing was a bad idea because it took time away from serving in the church, so we were pressured to put our dc into the ps system. The pastor told several of us that we need to stop having babies because our children were taking our time away from serving in the church. I could go on, but basically we were pressured every time we were at church, through phone calls and at meetings. We held our ground and told him that while he said God wanted us to lead some ministry, we would pray about it and wait for God to tell us Himself. The pastor was pretty mad at us for taking this stance. We served extensively and were involved in ministries, just not all the specific ministries that the pastor wanted done that were part of his five year plan.

 

We waited a couple more years trying to work it out, continued to serve in the areas where God had called us, and continued to stand against the increasing pressure from the pastor, staff and deacons. It was very difficult and made me not want to go to church at all, to be honest, because I was tired of the pressure and from trying to have godly responses to the pressure and comments. We did have several meetings with the pastor to discuss the situation, and a couple times we had a mediator to help, but the pastor would not accept that God had a different plan for our lives than he had.

 

We ended up leaving that church, but not without doing all we could to make it work out. We only spoke to the pastor and leadership about what was happening because we didn't want to include other church members in what was happening to us. We didn't want to cause any rifts or discord and worked hard on that. In hindsight, I think we should have left far sooner. It would have been healthier for dh and me.

 

All that to say, be honest with yourselves about the situation you are in and how healthy it is for your family. I do think you need to approach the pastor directly to be sure your interpretation of what is happening is what the pastor intends to communicate, just in case there has been a misunderstanding. Let him know what you are feeling about the continued comments and pressure. Your pastor may not accept your reasons for not being more involved in the church, but that is not your responsibility. You can make your decision about staying or finding another church based on the pastor's response during your conversation. If the pressure continues even when the people making the comments know your health situation and your current ministry commitments, then you can consider whether you should find a new church. Even if you leave that church, you can continue friendships with those people you care about.

 

Churches like you describe fail sooner or later.

[Chelli]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

My dh is also a preacher and I 1,000% agree with all of the above. You are making a big assumption that the sermon was entirely about you. I would assume that you are sensitive about this issue because of past encounters. The pastor might very well have been talking to the elderly folks in the congregation or just giving a generic "everybody needs to pitch in" kind of thing. Talk to these people. It is not spiritually healthy for you to keep all of this inside. :grouphug:

[AdamsFamily]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

:iagree:

 

My dh is a pastor, too, and has been accused of preaching "at" someone in a past service. My dh does not preach with anyone in particular in mind, ever.

 

I would talk to the pastor before leaving. If things aren't resolved after that conversation, then you can leave knowing that you tried to make amends.

 

I will say, though, in a small church, it is hard not to pressure people to do more since there are so few people to do what the church wants done. That does not mean that the smaller church should try to do everything that a larger church does. If a church does not have enough workers for something, that could be for two reasons: people aren't willing to do more or, simply, the church should not be doing it. Each member should honestly determine their ability level to help and stick to that. Doing more causes burnout, doing less causes harm to the church.

 

Also, I would rebell at a two-week VBS, and I am a Pastor's wife!

[Chris in VA]

OP said

I mention not wanting to stir things up because if we leave after a discussion with the pastor, people will want to know why, even if no one tells them, they will speculate.

 

Just want to ask how the heck people would know that your dh went to speak to the pastor? I don't even know who comes to see my dh during the day (or whenever), and I'm his wife! If there's that degree of busybody/gossips in your congregation, they've got a way bigger problem than a lack of volunteers.

 

Honestly, honey, from what you've described, it sounds like your pastor has major boundary issues--being sick or tired is a sign from God that you need to take care and love yourself, in my book. If he's serving when he's sick and exhausted (as opposed to a little cold and being tired), then he needs to have a mentor look after his boundaries and help him clarify them so he can model good stewardship of his time, talent, treasure....

 

And I'm sorry, but 2 weeks for VBS sounds like...well, not a great idea, not realistic, and not a good use of time. One week, fine. Every Wednesday for the summer, fine. 2 weeks of special stuff on a Sunday, fine. But every night during the week (or day, as the case may be) for two weeks? Nah.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Chris in VA

[MomatHWTK]

I don't think you can do much of anything if you aren't willing to speak to the pastors and elders about the subject and don't know for certainty that they are directing comments at you.

 

You've said this is as difficult decision for you, IMO it should be made based on fact not assumptions. If you do have a conversation and it leads to a disagreement or further criticism of your choices, then you will have your answer.

 

If people choose to talk and speculate, then so be it. Is it better for the church and it's growth that it have a serious leadership issue that is swept under the rug as people just silently leave?

Edited July 9, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[ma23peas]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

Yes! Even though you believe the sermon was directed at you, what he was relaying is a universal problem all churches have, especially during summer months, lack of volunteers...pray for your ministry team earnestly...seek the Word and do not let assumptions weaken relationships that are meant to build the body...prayer is the best approach then honest discussion to share your ideas.

[Laurie4b]

I remember from the last thread the pressuring you were getting from the elder and agree it was well beyond appropriate.

 

I think you do have a Matt 18 obligation, but as Faith said, if a church doesn't practice that well, it can be a fool's errand. I think we're still called to do it.

 

I do think that people are called to serve their local church in some way, and that there are few reasons not to serve and then only temporarily. I think that's biblical. You must care for the widows in your family--to not do that is to be "worse than an unbeliever," so that has to be a priority. However, we are called to share one another's burdens, yet each is to carry his own load, and the giving of gifts are for building up the body of Christ (Eph 4); I don't think "family only" service is what is envisioned here. However, service doesn't mean: you must attend this event, or you must volunteer in this ministry. It could mean you and your family helping out some of the elderly people in your congregation on occasion, which it sounds like you do, being on the prayer chain, calling an elderly person in your congregation who might be lonely, etc. So I believe the Bible teaches taking care of the needs of your physical family, but also contributing to the spiritual, physical, and emotional care of others in the body of Christ, which is your spiritual family. Likewise, your contributions to the needs of your spiritual family should not be so excessive that you are unable to meet the legitimate needs of your family. You can err on either side of that equation.

 

In most congregations, there is quite a contingent of bench warmers. That is not the normal Christian life. Some of the elderly folks in your congregation may have "retired" from Kingdom work, and your pastor may have been preaching at them. It's a likely group to be "sick and tired. "My guess is that he had a lot of people in mind.

 

It sounds like the church leadership has made some mistakes in discerning what would build up the church--both in spiritual depth and in numbers.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I remember from the last thread the pressuring you were getting from the elder and agree it was well beyond appropriate.

 

I think you do have a Matt 18 obligation, but as Faith said, if a church doesn't practice that well, it can be a fool's errand. I think we're still called to do it.

 

I do think that people are called to serve their local church in some way, and that there are few reasons not to serve and then only temporarily. I think that's biblical. You must care for the widows in your family--to not do that is to be "worse than an unbeliever," so that has to be a priority. However, we are called to share one another's burdens, yet each is to carry his own load, and the giving of gifts are for building up the body of Christ (Eph 4); I don't think "family only" service is what is envisioned here. However, service doesn't mean: you must attend this event, or you must volunteer in this ministry. It could mean you and your family helping out some of the elderly people in your congregation on occasion, which it sounds like you do, being on the prayer chain, calling an elderly person in your congregation who might be lonely, etc. So I believe the Bible teaches taking care of the needs of your physical family, but also contributing to the spiritual, physical, and emotional care of others in the body of Christ, which is your spiritual family. Likewise, your contributions to the needs of your spiritual family should not be so excessive that you are unable to meet the legitimate needs of your family. You can err on either side of that equation.

 

In most congregations, there is quite a contingent of bench warmers. That is not the normal Christian life. Some of the elderly folks in your congregation may have "retired" from Kingdom work, and your pastor may have been preaching at them. It's a likely group to be "sick and tired. "My guess is that he had a lot of people in mind.

 

It sounds like the church leadership has made some mistakes in discerning what would build up the church--both in spiritual depth and in numbers.

 

:iagree:

[gardenmom5]

bMy feelings are hurt that our pastor would include these statements in a sermon in front of the entire congregation and yet not even speak to us privately about it. So, have any of you dealt with this level of pressure from a church before? Anyone want to tell me what to do? Be gentle, this is very hard on us.

 

Sorry I went on so long. I am very upset.

 

 

:grouphug: what you describe sounds like public "shaming", and it is intended to embarass the target into submission to THEIR will. I would be gone and looking for a new church.

[PrairieSong]

I read most of this thread and only skimmed the original one. I am so sorry for what you are going through. I could not handle that kind of pressure and probably would have already been gone if I were in your shoes.

 

I will pray for you and your family. God will lead you to a better place, whether that is within this church family or somewhere else.

[shanvan]

Thank you to all who responded. We are prayerfully considering the situation in light of God's word and deciding whether this church is a healthy place for us.

 

ETA: Thank you to those who have said they would pray for us. We definitely need prayer.

Edited July 9, 2012 by shanvan

[Rebel Yell]

We have been in your shoes, which is why I can emphatically say "Shake the dust off your shoes, walk away and never look back".

:iagree:

 

Gee. I wonder why they have trouble attracting young families.

 

Once you move on you'll wish you'd done it sooner.

:iagree:

 

.... The problem is the church was once a huge congregation and has dwindled to about 30-40 people who attend weekly, and many of them elderly. But, they are still trying to hold the same outreach programs that were done when the church had huge numbers.

....

Even if circumstances were ideal with your health/distance/etc., the church should recognize that it needs to change the way it does things and what ministries it provides. Think of the reverse: if it started out as a tiny church and only had 1 SUnday School class for all children ages 3-18, held around a 10-seat table, would they insist on continuing that model when the children numbered over 100?

 

I would leave this church without fuss, confrontation, or drama.

 

I also suggest you read a book about spiritual abuse before you decide on another church.

:iagree:

 

... I want to add, too that our pastor made the statement today, that being sick or tired is not a reason to fore-go serving in the church.

How very very sad.

 

************

I understand- caring for dear friends in a shrinking church. Maybe you don't want to be one more 'rat' that abandons ship. We stayed for a few YEARS in a church that was clearly wrong for us. I spent about three hours just sobbing after our first visit to what is now our new church. I no longer felt wicked or stupid or lazy- I understood the entire message/sermon for the first time in years. Our children were learning and growing... and I was so sad that we didn't leave sooner.

 

I pray you have the strength to do what is right... for YOU & your family. The Bible says to be in fellowship with other believers, but it doesn't say you are locked into a particular congregation.

[fairfarmhand]

:iagree:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How very very sad.

 

************

I understand- caring for dear friends in a shrinking church. Maybe you don't want to be one more 'rat' that abandons ship. We stayed for a few YEARS in a church that was clearly wrong for us. I spent about three hours just sobbing after our first visit to what is now our new church. I no longer felt wicked or stupid or lazy- I understood the entire message/sermon for the first time in years. Our children were learning and growing... and I was so sad that we didn't leave sooner.

 

I pray you have the strength to do what is right... for YOU & your family. The Bible says to be in fellowship with other believers, but it doesn't say you are locked into a particular congregation.

 

I have been in this same situation. Even if the pastor was not deliberately targeting you, I would be concerned about the leadership gauging anyone's spirituality by the number of hours served in church programs. Just because you are not serving in the capacity in which the pastor thinks you ought to does not mean that what you are doing has no value. Remember that you are accountable to GOD for your service and if you feel that you are doing what GOD wants you to be doing then noone else has a right to question that.

 

I'd be gone from this church. Yes, you will be sad, yes you will miss people. But one Sunday when you find a new place you will be stunned that you leave church happy, uplifted and encouraged, rather than beaten down and discouraged.

[MariannNOVA]

We have been in your shoes, which is why I can emphatically say "Shake the dust off your shoes, walk away and never look back".

 

Me too. Many years ago, but a situation quite similar to yours -- difference being it was a congregation of a few thousand, however, it may as well have been only a dozen because everyone knew it was me (a Deaconess) who was unable and did not wish to be one of a group of 4 who went on hospital visits (worked full time in NYC and at home, had two small daughters).

[bkpan]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Having clergy family members as well, it is remarkable how often this happens - that a member will take as a personal attack something that had nothing to do with them. And even if it did, you cannot move forward or clear the air without discussing this directly with those involved.

 

As far as your serving around your neighborhood and with family great! But it is also important for every member of a church community to also give what they can to build up the body. Both matter. It is COMPLETELY OK to say no to VBS if it will not work for your family. I am sure that there is some other area where your family could contribute that fits with your needs as well. A talk with your pastor could really go a long way! HTH

[JFJ in IL]

Matthew 18 says you should go to your brother first, and talk out the problem. I think you are spot on to address the Pastor directly and state your case and your decision, as you have done clearly above. If he will not receive it, you are free to go, but I think this is the right way to approach it.

 

:iagree:

[Heathermomster]

Have you read the book The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict by Ken Sande? This is the best book that I've read for biblical reconciliation.

[Rebel Yell]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Having clergy family members as well, it is remarkable how often this happens - that a member will take as a personal attack something that had nothing to do with them. And even if it did, you cannot move forward or clear the air without discussing this directly with those involved.

 

As far as your serving around your neighborhood and with family great! But it is also important for every member of a church community to also give what they can to build up the body. Both matter. It is COMPLETELY OK to say no to VBS if it will not work for your family. I am sure that there is some other area where your family could contribute that fits with your needs as well. A talk with your pastor could really go a long way! HTH

 

Very true... but it seems clear from the OP that it is *not* OK with her pastor. BTDT- my husband was once harangued about not being able to leave work early (goodness- leaving "on time" was a good day for him) to do work for the church. He did plenty of work for the church in his off hours... I think Pastors have a tough job, but many I have met do not understand that the congregation volunteers for extra work on top of their already full lives, and can't be expected to commit at the same level as a full-time paid minister.

[Chelli]

I want to add, too that our pastor made the statement today, that being sick or tired is not a reason to fore-go serving in the church.

 

I didn't see this before I posted earlier in this thread.

 

This statement is crazy. I can't imagine my dh, the preacher, ever saying this from the pulpit or out of it. Of course, he encourages people to serve, but would never tell someone to serve if they are ill or exhausted. Even he takes sick days.

 

While I still believe you need to talk to the pastor, now I think your conversation needs to be along the lines of "Here is why we are leaving...". A pastor who doesn't see illness as a reason to cut back on your service to the church is a pastor who will never be satisfied with any amount of service. That is no church to be a part of.

 

:grouphug: and prayers.

[fairfarmhand]

Very true... but it seems clear from the OP that it is *not* OK with her pastor. BTDT- my husband was once harangued about not being able to leave work early (goodness- leaving "on time" was a good day for him) to do work for the church. He did plenty of work for the church in his off hours... I think Pastors have a tough job, but many I have met do not understand that the congregation volunteers for extra work on top of their already full lives, and can't be expected to commit at the same level as a full-time paid minister.

I've experienced this as well.