Can We Talk about the Pearls Here?

[ticklbee]

Here is a link to the article about the boycott - http://www.thehomeschoolmagazine.com/How_To_Homeschool/articles/the_tour_God_planned.php

[kim in ks]

Blaming the Pearls for what happened to that little boy is really no different than blaming it on the homeschooling. The cause of the child's abuse was an abusive mother, who herself had an abusive childhood. I have read a great deal of the Pearl's books and I find them to be committed to the Lord and to the strengthening of families. It is those that apply their child-training principles with distortions and anger that hurt children.

 

They do not advocate EVER disciplining a child in anger, leaving marks on a child, or assaulting the dignity of a child. They DO emphasize the necessity of joy in a family and in training the children.

 

I think that what so often happens is over-reaction on the part of parents so wanting their dc to not become casualties of this culture. They are zealous, and in reading some of the Pearl's literature, focus mainly on "training children to first-time obedience" and then become frustrated when their dc don't perform properly. They aren't as zeroed in on the Pearls' admonitions to parents. I found that their harshest criticisms were for the parents who weren't willing to give all they have for their dc. To first "clean out their own cup" before they attempt to train their dc.

 

I hope this thread stays civil, though I don't expect it to. I do feel sorry for the Pearls and how often their teaching is misrepresented, taken out of context, or blamed, for the misapplication of discipline by over-zealous parents. Just my opinion, and I don't even really spank anymore. I was one of those over-zealous parents, but I don't blame the Pearls for my misapplication at times of their teaching. I blame myself, and for not trusting my mommy instincts more. Their principles are more a part of their background and the southern culture they were raised in. It is no different than any other child-rearing book. Some may fit your family and some may not. But that doesn't make them villains.

 

Kim

 

:iagree: by another Kim in KS

[Ellie]

Comments about spanking come after comments like this:

 

"Parents must first enjoy their children. Only in an atmosphere of mutual respect and trust can parents impart anything positive to their children. In an environment of tension and criticism, training and spanking are ineffective, even counterproductive. Make your children part of your life—the biggest part. Look them in the eyes and smile right through them. Love your way into their souls. Delight in the things they delight in, and they will delight in you. If they know that their existence pleases you, they will want their actions to please you also. Only in this context are either of you ready for training. "

 

And this:

 

"Training is done before the need to discipline arises. Training is what you do in the moments when all is well and you take time out to condition them to obedience. Your well-spoken words of praise and instruction will prevent many possible acts of disobedience or foolishness. Impart an understanding of why obedience is important. When you cause children to understand that you will hold to your authority firmly, you are pre-conditioning their hearts and minds to obedience."

 

Followed by this:

 

"When parents have failed to train, their “discipline†tends to come in explosive spurts. Instead of training the child to obey, they wait until his disobedience drives them into violent discipline. That is like driving a car by bouncing off the guardrails on either side. It might knock your kids back toward center, but in the end it will wreck them. If you don’t take time to train, you haven’t taken time to be a parent, and your discipline will be more like war. If it makes you feel abusive, it proves you still have a conscience. Spanking is a great corrective tool when used on trained children, but it will make an untrained child stubborn and mad."

 

Only when the Pearls' comments are taken out of context might they appear to be abusive, IMHO. The term "corporal punishment" is only used to describe a mother who is incorrectly correcting/training her ds. There is much description of how to do it correctly, and when read *in context* it doesn't look the least bit abusive to me. YMMV.

[Kelli in TN]

Comments about spanking come after comments like this:

 

.

 

I really did all that. I was really trying to do this thing right. I took to heart his writings about tying those heart strings. You cannot assume that everyone who found his methods damaging were misusing them. Not at all.

 

But I think we are at impasse on this topic. I have walked away from this sort of parenting and I won't look back. I am not going to change the mind of anyone who really believes in their stuff, and my mind is not ever going to be changed about what sort of people I think they are. And this has been a tough topic for me, it has dredged up a lot of really painful memories.

 

I wonder if that man has any clue how much hurt he leaves behind when he makes a mockery of the heart desires of countless wives? I doubt he cares.

 

It is not just the pro-spanking, it is the whole package, their whole presentation of family life that is warped. They have this whole anti-woman vibe going on and I just think it is incredibly unhealthy.

[Pamela H in Texas]

this has been a tough topic for me, it has dredged up a lot of really painful memories.

 

I'm so sorry.

 

Several years ago, my hubby had a similar moment. We were reading a debate board and I was venting how absolutely abhorrent this one person's views were. My hubby started to tear up (something WAY out of character for him). He expresses that he couldn't believe we actually hit our son, citing one particular circumstance that changed everything.

 

I, of course, consoled him and told him that we weren't the only parents who had a challenging, difficult child who had been misled especially by so-called "christian" teachings. I told him that what is great for our family is that we did it such a short time before we beefed up the good discipline helping our child instead. And I told him that was why after so many years I still discussed the topic with other people, hoping to sway them, not to stop hitting their kids, but just simply to learn to discipline better so any punishment was rare, their homes could have the peace we've been blessed with, and they could feel GOOD about what they were doing. This was all before I started counseling parents but of course I felt it even more when I started doing that.

 

I am so glad about what all I've learned as I'm sure you are. We don't have to parent in fear and with fear anymore. Our kids can learn to do better for better reasons and in better ways. And the next parent might learn from our mistakes and what we've learned also making their time of poor choices, some possibly even abusive, short-lived.

 

Thanks for sharing your story. It DOES help people. I promise. You won't sway staunch advocates, but you may help a young mom that just would like to do a little better.

[dirty ethel rackham]

It is possible to raise a well behaved, responsible, obedient child (teen) without spanking. It can be done by teaching right from wrong, with lots of guidance, love and mutual respect.

 

My boys behave well at home and in public, but not because they fear a 'whuppin'. They do so because they know it is the correct and responsible thing to do.

 

:iagree: Amen, sister! I can't say that I have always had the self-control to not spank, but, in the end, it was never effective. It hurt the relationship, which is a much more effective parenting tool.

[nmoira]

 

Only when the Pearls' comments are taken out of context might they appear to be abusive, IMHO. The term "corporal punishment" is only used to describe a mother who is incorrectly correcting/training her ds. There is much description of how to do it correctly, and when read *in context* it doesn't look the least bit abusive to me. YMMV.

No, they call it "corporal chastisement." And the difference to the child being beaten with the plumbing supply line is.... what? There is no excuse ever to do that to another living creature, period, no matter how calm one is able to appear while doing so.

[Colleen]

I am genuinely wondering, Ellie, why no one can comment if they haven't read the Pearls' books. We discuss and formulate opinions about all manner of things in life without necessarily having delved into the primary sources at length. I watch a movie preview and determine whether or not it's fare that appeals to me. I read excerpts from and reviews of a given book and decide whether I want to commit to a full reading. I even, admittedly, make assumptions at times with very little info to go on. A place of business called "The Lusty Lady", for example (and it does exist...a stone's throw away from the Seattle Art Museum:001_huh:), doesn't necessitate a firsthand visit on my part to determine it isn't my cuppa.;)

 

Have I read the Pearls' books? Nope. But I've read a good deal of their philosophy in order to give them (and some friends) a fair hearing. I don't merely make offhand assumptions based on a few lines shared on a message board. I do investigate. I do inform myself. So I can't understand your assertion that only those who have read books by the Pearls have a valid opinion on the subject. Can you help me understand?

[Chris in CA]

LOL! ITA

[gardenschooler]

OMG. I think I'm going to be sick. I really shouldn't have read that. I'm seriously in tears now thinking that if I'd read this as a new parent I may have actually implemented this. Thank God I didn't. I'm off to hug my children. . .

 

The part about 'What if they fight back' really disturbed me. I have no words.

[gardenschooler]

That's fair.

 

I've read a couple of their books, met both of them personally and suffered through all four sessions of a seminar starring them.

 

So I can comment, right?

 

When I read the first book I was at a place in my life where I was very open to their message. I was excited to have this wonderful fool proof formula that seemed like the ticket to the magic train that led to the land of perfect family life. We were going to tie heart strings and we were going to apply the switch and get those attitudes straight.

 

Fast forward a couple of years and life is awful. Truly awful. I have lost the heart of one of my children, thanks to a toxic combination of damaging punishment based parenting on my part and a real mental glitch on the part of said child. The craziness of the Pearls "wisdom" and a touch of Ezzo here and there masked the fragility of this child's psyche. It was a heartbreaking scenario, as I look back over my shoulder at those years.

 

The church we were attending at the time hosted the Pearls and we committed to attend the whole dang thing. I was nearly tingling with excitement. They would have the answers we needed, I just knew it. We would come out of that seminar better parents and we would fix the broken places and God would heal our family and someday it would be our letter of gratitude in their newsletter! And the birds would sing in perfect harmony and the skies would be blue all the time.

 

The first session of the seminar Mr. Pearl explained how to set your child up by leaving something tempting on the counter, cookies perhaps, and then when the child succombed to the temptation, sneaking up with your handy switch and administering blows to the back of the the child's legs. He demonstrated the proper hitting technique with a switch (it was not a plumbing line, just a thin wooden switch). He also demonstrated how to sit a child on your lap to read a story to him or her. During this sweet bonding time it is very important to make sure you have your handy dandy switch nearby because as soon as you the child gets the wiggles you need to be ready to immediately swat a couple of good ones across his legs. Because you are the parent and by golly he is going to enjoy story time with you whether he likes it or not. This was demonstrated to us with a chair, the doll, the switch, and of course, Mr. Pearl.

 

The second session dealt with teens. He explained to us how to deal with teens who express disappointment. Using his youngest daughter as an example (and she was there and had spent the afternoon playing ultimate frisbee with the youth of our church, so I am sure she was delighted to be the example in front of these new friends), he shared that sometimes she liked to go skating. Sometimes they said yes. Sometimes they said no. Pretty normal. However, if they said no and her face registered any disappointment then she was grounded from skating for 6 months. He also shared a story about using a tree branch to administer a spanking? beating? to his teenage son as his teenaged friends looked on. I don't know precisely what he meant by tree branch, he did not have a visual during this session, but my imagination leads me to believe it was probably a pretty big thing.

 

The third session dealt with being better wives. Good wives never expect anything from their husbands and want to have s#x all the time. Good wives never question their husbands. He used a story about a young girl who found herself married to a man who it turns out liked thinks a little kinky (in a way that was uncomfortable to her) and suffered from some hygiene issues. He also chewed tobacco and expected big kisses even with his mouth full of chaw. Mr. Pearl was proud to point out that thanks to the mentoring of Mrs. Pearl this young girl came to accept her lot in life and realize that she needed to change her attitude about this man, but she had no right to expect any changes on his part. And they lived happily ever after. Forever. Or maybe it just felt like forever to the poor girl.

 

The fourth session was the most fun. It was about being a good husband. Mr. Pearl went around the church to each wife and gave them a piece of paper and a pencil and asked them to write down three things that they would like to see their husband do differently. He took up the paper and then spent the next hour or so talking about how to be a better husband by sanctifying your wife by having a lot of s#x. Or something like that. There were a lot of smiling men. Then he read the slips of paper one by one and made fun of the heartfelt requests of the wives as the husbands did their best to guess which one was written by their wives. My husband guessed and he teased me and it was a very dark place in our marriage for a little bit. It was humiliating and I was not the only one who left feeling shamed.

 

I think they are dreadful people. I think their books, their website, their newsletter, and their seminars are dreadful. I base this on what I have personally heard and read from them. None of it is based on second hand information.

 

I hope everyone who has ever considered using their methods reads this. Thank you for posting it, Kelli.

[gardenschooler]

People who spank their child for running into the street and those who blanket train babies using spanking are all "spankers".

 

What on earth is 'blanket training'? I probably don't even want to know, but I'm sure not going to google it, and I can't read any more of that website. I just can't.

[Bess]

I wonder if that man has any clue how much hurt he leaves behind when he makes a mockery of the heart desires of countless wives? I doubt he cares.

 

 

 

Just curious what you mean by "heart desires"? :confused: I am very familiar with the Pearls, but don't know what you mean about wive's heart desires. I'm trying to understand....

[Pamela H in Texas]

What on earth is 'blanket training'?

 

Well, now *I* personally DO believe in blanket training. I just do it without hitting the infant to do it.

 

Basically, a baby is placed on the blanket and is to remain there. With most people, if he crawls off, he is switched. A common other component is to place one or two kid toys and a no-no near baby and if he goes for the no-no, even though it's in reach of his blanket, he's switched.

 

We were watching a baby (it's been over a year ago now) and I did feel that we needed to train him to stay out of the kitchen when we were cleaning or cooking. We also felt he could be close-by but couldn't be underfoot when we were exercising, esp with weights. In both circumstances, we did training. He wasn't particularly happy about it a few times, but he did learn that when placed in a certain room or spot, he had to stay there.

 

Now some people disagree with that AT ALL, but had they seen it here, I don't think they'd have had too much of an issue with it. I would HOPE that most people would take severe issue with swatting or switching an infant for it though.

 

ETA: we did not do the tempting thing. D had all HIS toys around him and anything we didn't want him to touch was either put out of reach or he was removed from. I don't believe tempting an infant is appropriate.

[Kelli in TN]

What on earth is 'blanket training'? I probably don't even want to know, but I'm sure not going to google it, and I can't read any more of that website. I just can't.

 

I am pretty sure it is where you teach the baby to be content to play with his or her toys without leaving the blanket. Like an invisible fence.

 

The Ezzos advocated using a playpen the same way.

 

I just toted mine around in sling! And then when they were crawling age we just used a lot of baby gates! And energetic siblings to chase the baby down! It was mad, fun chaos for a few years there.

 

No blanket training for us! But for some families it can work really well and I applaud them if they can keep that mobile baby contained and content without spanking. I am not so impressed if they are using a switch to get it done.

[Holly IN]

Read the books not the articles. I have read the articles against the Pearls. They have taken alot of stuff out of context. I also never heard of them stating to use a plumbing line. I do remember that we need to tie heart strings with our children. That was the gist of it. The rest comes later through discipline. When you take snips out of the book it changes alot of things about what Pearls are saying. When I heard about them I thought what a horrible couple to be teaching these things. Somebody challenged me to get their books and read them all the way through. I changed my mind about them. They weren't the abusive couple that some articles led me to think that of them. Now I see them as a couple trying to help parents to keep their children's heart to them through discipline and relationships.

 

This is my opinion based on their books that I have read. I do agree with whoever said that they shouldn't comment if they haven't read the books. I am living proof of that. Articles in magazines or online do not do them justice at all. They have twisted their words instead.

 

Please read their books then you can comment. :D

 

Holly

[Kelli in TN]

Just curious what you mean by "heart desires"? :confused: I am very familiar with the Pearls, but don't know what you mean about wive's heart desires. I'm trying to understand....

 

Well, just the desires of her heart. This man went around the sanctuary with little pieces of paper and pencils. He instructed each wife to write down 3 things that she wished her husband would do differently. Some of them were serious (I wish he would guard his mind against lust, I wish he would pray with me, I wish he would lead family devotions) some were funny (I wish he would hang the screen door that has been sitting in our garage for 2 years). He read each one aloud and made a mockery of them, individually. I remember the one about family devotions, he said that this was obviously written by a woman who was controlling and wanted to keep her husband on a leash.

 

These women wrote these things down in faith that he was somehow going to use them to help their husbands understand their wives. Far from it.

[Jenny in Atl]

This thread makes me so sad.... I can't fathom ever hitting a baby. Blanket training? :crying:

[Kelli in TN]

The part about 'What if they fight back' really disturbed me. I have no words.

 

Go to his hiding place and laugh at his frail attempts.

 

Wow.

[Jennifer in MI]

Go to his hiding place and laugh at his frail attempts.

 

Wow.

 

Exactly. So much of his writing here (and I didn't read all of it as it make me feel sick) sounds like he's training an animal. These poor, poor children.

[Kelli in TN]

This thread makes me so sad.... I can't fathom ever hitting a baby. Blanket training? :crying:

 

Blanket training is not so bad. I have known people who blanket trained without hitting. I never succeeded at it so I gave up.

 

Obviously if it takes hitting to keep the baby on the blanket, I am not impressed with the parenting skills!

 

But people who can teach a baby to stay on their blanket (and they usually use a big blanket) and play happily with their toys for an hour or so have a much easier time fixing dinner! I applaud those parents.

[Sweetpeach]

Instead of ignoring specific posters, I would I could wire my WTM account to ignore any and all posts dealing with spanking and abuse. I might be able to stomach these opinions if they weren't always and continually tied to "joy of the Lord" and biblical teaching. I'm pretty sure being switched with plumbing line rarely produces anything but rebellion and I have a funny feeling Jesus would be much more interested in relationship with our kids instead of beating them????? A parent can have firm boundaries, demand and expect obedience and do that gracefully and lovingly . . . without a rod and without using violence as their first line of discipline.

 

Note to self:

Don't read the Pearl articles, ever.

Stick to the curriculum board.

[Joanne]

Blanket training is not so bad. I have known people who blanket trained without hitting.

 

It's not unlike "Tomato Staking" as a parenting topic. There are those who use blanket training proactively and non punitively. There are those who do the same with tomato staking. But the terms emerge from heavily punitive parenting paradigms and it's just easier to post "blanket training" than to say "placing a baby on a blanket with enticing toys just out of reach and whipping them when they reach for them after you say "no"."

[Kelli in TN]

Instead of ignoring specific posters, I would I could wire my WTM account to ignore any and all posts dealing with spanking and abuse. I might be able to stomach these opinions if they weren't always and continually tied to "joy of the Lord" and biblical teaching. I'm pretty sure being switched with plumbing line rarely produces anything but rebellion and I have a funny feeling Jesus would be much more interested in relationship with our kids instead of beating them????? A parent can have firm boundaries, demand and expect obedience and do that gracefully and lovingly . . . without a rod and without using violence as their first line of discipline.

 

Note to self:

Don't read the Pearl articles, ever.

Stick to the curriculum board.

 

But you will notice that most of the posters in this thread are speaking out against this, right?

[Jackie in AR]

(Btw, I've gotten a creepy sexual vibe from him in his writing, as well. One example, I recall him describing his daughter dancing around her groom after the wedding until he was "well-salivated." I never want my husband looking at my future son in law as he gazes at our daughter and observing that he seems "well-salivated." Ick. Anyway, what you've said here bears that out as well.

 

I remember reading that, too, Erica; it made me feel sick to my stomach.

[Joanne]

I have read the articles against the Pearls. They have taken alot of stuff out of context. I also never heard of them stating to use a plumbing line. I do remember that we need to tie heart strings with our children. That was the gist of it. The rest comes later through discipline. When you take snips out of the book it changes alot of things about what Pearls are saying.

 

I should make it clear that I've read TTUAC and the newsletter. I've read part of and a lot about Created To Be His Helpmeet.

 

I still find the approach to child rearing *extra*Biblical, heavily punitive, adversarial, harsh and I do think his advice is abusive.

 

It doesn't matter how many heart strings you tie when you advocate hitting babies in a setting where you set them up to fail your unreasonable, developmentally difficult standards. (Just one example)

 

Not to mention the deeply flawed theology and the delivery, assumptions and tone of his writings.

[Kelli in TN]

But the terms emerge from heavily punitive parenting paradigms and it's just easier to post "blanket training" than to say "placing a baby on a blanket with enticing toys just out of reach and whipping them when they reach for them after you say "no"."

 

I have never known anyone who actually put toys just out of the reach of the child and hit them for reaching for them.

 

I have known a handful of parents that somehow, someway, convinced that baby to stay put and play happily. They did it without trauma of any sort. I was duly impressed.

[stephanie]

My parents believed in spanking with a "rod" and it absolutely led to abuse. The problem is that a parent who is spanking with a stick cannot tell how hard they're hitting the child (if you used the palm of your hand, for example, your hand would sting if you hit hard). My parents sometimes were able to simply spank me with a rod, but often they'd lose control and keep hitting me until I had welts, etc. Once my mom was using a yard stick because it was the only stick she could find; it broke and she just kept hitting me with the broken stick. I would absolutely never listen to parenting advice from anyone who advocates spanking with a piece of plumbing. Oh, and I was never, ever, ever, ever contrite after a spanking. I was always more rebellious afterward. Because in my heart I knew that nothing I had ever done justified the kind of spanking I'd received. So I never regretted my own behavior; in my mind, my parents were the ones who were wrong. If the goal was to spank me until I showed a contrite spirit, they would have killed me first (and a few times I thought they might).

 

:grouphug: I just wanted to give you a big hug!

[Jackie in AR]

That's fair.

 

I've read a couple of their books, met both of them personally and suffered through all four sessions of a seminar starring them.

 

So I can comment, right?

 

When I read the first book I was at a place in my life where I was very open to their message. I was excited to have this wonderful fool proof formula that seemed like the ticket to the magic train that led to the land of perfect family life. We were going to tie heart strings and we were going to apply the switch and get those attitudes straight.

 

Fast forward a couple of years and life is awful. Truly awful. I have lost the heart of one of my children, thanks to a toxic combination of damaging punishment based parenting on my part and a real mental glitch on the part of said child. The craziness of the Pearls "wisdom" and a touch of Ezzo here and there masked the fragility of this child's psyche. It was a heartbreaking scenario, as I look back over my shoulder at those years.

 

The church we were attending at the time hosted the Pearls and we committed to attend the whole dang thing. I was nearly tingling with excitement. They would have the answers we needed, I just knew it. We would come out of that seminar better parents and we would fix the broken places and God would heal our family and someday it would be our letter of gratitude in their newsletter! And the birds would sing in perfect harmony and the skies would be blue all the time.

 

The first session of the seminar Mr. Pearl explained how to set your child up by leaving something tempting on the counter, cookies perhaps, and then when the child succombed to the temptation, sneaking up with your handy switch and administering blows to the back of the the child's legs. He demonstrated the proper hitting technique with a switch (it was not a plumbing line, just a thin wooden switch). He also demonstrated how to sit a child on your lap to read a story to him or her. During this sweet bonding time it is very important to make sure you have your handy dandy switch nearby because as soon as you the child gets the wiggles you need to be ready to immediately swat a couple of good ones across his legs. Because you are the parent and by golly he is going to enjoy story time with you whether he likes it or not. This was demonstrated to us with a chair, the doll, the switch, and of course, Mr. Pearl.

 

The second session dealt with teens. He explained to us how to deal with teens who express disappointment. Using his youngest daughter as an example (and she was there and had spent the afternoon playing ultimate frisbee with the youth of our church, so I am sure she was delighted to be the example in front of these new friends), he shared that sometimes she liked to go skating. Sometimes they said yes. Sometimes they said no. Pretty normal. However, if they said no and her face registered any disappointment then she was grounded from skating for 6 months. He also shared a story about using a tree branch to administer a spanking? beating? to his teenage son as his teenaged friends looked on. I don't know precisely what he meant by tree branch, he did not have a visual during this session, but my imagination leads me to believe it was probably a pretty big thing.

 

The third session dealt with being better wives. Good wives never expect anything from their husbands and want to have s#x all the time. Good wives never question their husbands. He used a story about a young girl who found herself married to a man who it turns out liked thinks a little kinky (in a way that was uncomfortable to her) and suffered from some hygiene issues. He also chewed tobacco and expected big kisses even with his mouth full of chaw. Mr. Pearl was proud to point out that thanks to the mentoring of Mrs. Pearl this young girl came to accept her lot in life and realize that she needed to change her attitude about this man, but she had no right to expect any changes on his part. And they lived happily ever after. Forever. Or maybe it just felt like forever to the poor girl.

 

The fourth session was the most fun. It was about being a good husband. Mr. Pearl went around the church to each wife and gave them a piece of paper and a pencil and asked them to write down three things that they would like to see their husband do differently. He took up the paper and then spent the next hour or so talking about how to be a better husband by sanctifying your wife by having a lot of s#x. Or something like that. There were a lot of smiling men. Then he read the slips of paper one by one and made fun of the heartfelt requests of the wives as the husbands did their best to guess which one was written by their wives. My husband guessed and he teased me and it was a very dark place in our marriage for a little bit. It was humiliating and I was not the only one who left feeling shamed.

 

I think they are dreadful people. I think their books, their website, their newsletter, and their seminars are dreadful. I base this on what I have personally heard and read from them. None of it is based on second hand information.

 

Thank you, Kelli, for having the courage to share your experience with this man and his teachings. What sick, sick ideas he has.

 

((Hugs)) to you for suffering through your experiences.

[Jackie in AR]

"(I)f all parents practiced child training as I have suggested, there wouldn’t be any need for abnormal psychologists or child protection agencies. A lot of people would move on to more practical kinds of work, and there wouldn’t be any more crime or war." ~ M. Pearl

 

Sure, I can ride my high-and-mighty horse with the best of 'em, but c'mon...Claiming that my parenting style, adopted by all parents, will rid the world of crime and war? Good grief. I have friends who say they sift through the Pearls insights, keeping what they perceive to be the nuggets of wisdom and and tossing the rest. But panning for gold shouldn't have to involve wading through sh*t.;)

 

Wow, his quote kind of says it all, doesn't it?

 

Bombastic *ss is right.

[LisaNY]

 

I wonder if that man has any clue how much hurt he leaves behind when he makes a mockery of the heart desires of countless wives? I doubt he cares.

 

 

 

Kelli, what are "the heart desires of countless wives"? I'm trying to phrase this question so that it does not appear argumentative. It isn't at all. I'm just wondering what you are saying/referring to. Does it have to do with one of their books on submission?

 

I've read the Pearl's books, and read their newsletters. I have found some things that I felt were good, basic principles, but I could never seem to shake the feeling that something just wasn't right. Mr. Pearl, IMO, is EXTREMELY spiritually arrogant. I strongly disagree with him on his theology. IMO, he is one of those self-proclaimed prophets, of sorts. Does he submit to any earthly authority but his own?

[stephanie]

Nope. They are not to blame. I am to blame. All the damage, all the brokeness, all the ruined childhood years. The joyful childhood that was stolen from my kids was stolen by me. I am not blaming the Pearls.

 

I just think their teachings are dreadful and hatefilled. But God entrusted these children to me and I ruined their childhoods. I know full well where the blame lies.

 

:grouphug: Don't live in condemnation, Kelli. Talk to your babies if they can understand. Your love of them will overcome any decisions you think may not have been right. Kids are great about forgiveness.

[LisaNY]

Well, just the desires of her heart. This man went around the sanctuary with little pieces of paper and pencils. He instructed each wife to write down 3 things that she wished her husband would do differently. Some of them were serious (I wish he would guard his mind against lust, I wish he would pray with me, I wish he would lead family devotions) some were funny (I wish he would hang the screen door that has been sitting in our garage for 2 years). He read each one aloud and made a mockery of them, individually. I remember the one about family devotions, he said that this was obviously written by a woman who was controlling and wanted to keep her husband on a leash.

 

These women wrote these things down in faith that he was somehow going to use them to help their husbands understand their wives. Far from it.

 

Oh. My. Goodness!!

 

Sorry, Kelli, I did not read further to find out that someone else had asked the same question. Did Michael Pearl do this? What a jerk.

[Kelli in TN]

Kelli, what are "the heart desires of countless wives"?

 

I snipped the following from my earliest post in this thread.....

 

The fourth session was the most fun. It was about being a good husband. Mr. Pearl went around the church to each wife and gave them a piece of paper and a pencil and asked them to write down three things that they would like to see their husband do differently. He took up the paper and then spent the next hour or so talking about how to be a better husband by sanctifying your wife by having a lot of s#x. Or something like that. There were a lot of smiling men. Then he read the slips of paper one by one and made fun of the heartfelt requests of the wives as the husbands did their best to guess which one was written by their wives. My husband guessed and he teased me and it was a very dark place in our marriage for a little bit. It was humiliating and I was not the only one who left feeling shamed.

 

 

The very idea that someone would say to a room full of women, "write down the three things you most like your husband to do differently" and then, when the women have entrusted you with that information to use it to mock them later is just cruel. The women, including myself, wrote down our most heartfelt desires on those slips of paper. He used them to bully us as a group.

[LisaNY]

That's fair.

 

I've read a couple of their books, met both of them personally and suffered through all four sessions of a seminar starring them.

 

So I can comment, right?

 

When I read the first book I was at a place in my life where I was very open to their message. I was excited to have this wonderful fool proof formula that seemed like the ticket to the magic train that led to the land of perfect family life. We were going to tie heart strings and we were going to apply the switch and get those attitudes straight.

 

Fast forward a couple of years and life is awful. Truly awful. I have lost the heart of one of my children, thanks to a toxic combination of damaging punishment based parenting on my part and a real mental glitch on the part of said child. The craziness of the Pearls "wisdom" and a touch of Ezzo here and there masked the fragility of this child's psyche. It was a heartbreaking scenario, as I look back over my shoulder at those years.

 

The church we were attending at the time hosted the Pearls and we committed to attend the whole dang thing. I was nearly tingling with excitement. They would have the answers we needed, I just knew it. We would come out of that seminar better parents and we would fix the broken places and God would heal our family and someday it would be our letter of gratitude in their newsletter! And the birds would sing in perfect harmony and the skies would be blue all the time.

 

The first session of the seminar Mr. Pearl explained how to set your child up by leaving something tempting on the counter, cookies perhaps, and then when the child succombed to the temptation, sneaking up with your handy switch and administering blows to the back of the the child's legs. He demonstrated the proper hitting technique with a switch (it was not a plumbing line, just a thin wooden switch). He also demonstrated how to sit a child on your lap to read a story to him or her. During this sweet bonding time it is very important to make sure you have your handy dandy switch nearby because as soon as you the child gets the wiggles you need to be ready to immediately swat a couple of good ones across his legs. Because you are the parent and by golly he is going to enjoy story time with you whether he likes it or not. This was demonstrated to us with a chair, the doll, the switch, and of course, Mr. Pearl.

 

The second session dealt with teens. He explained to us how to deal with teens who express disappointment. Using his youngest daughter as an example (and she was there and had spent the afternoon playing ultimate frisbee with the youth of our church, so I am sure she was delighted to be the example in front of these new friends), he shared that sometimes she liked to go skating. Sometimes they said yes. Sometimes they said no. Pretty normal. However, if they said no and her face registered any disappointment then she was grounded from skating for 6 months. He also shared a story about using a tree branch to administer a spanking? beating? to his teenage son as his teenaged friends looked on. I don't know precisely what he meant by tree branch, he did not have a visual during this session, but my imagination leads me to believe it was probably a pretty big thing.

 

The third session dealt with being better wives. Good wives never expect anything from their husbands and want to have s#x all the time. Good wives never question their husbands. He used a story about a young girl who found herself married to a man who it turns out liked thinks a little kinky (in a way that was uncomfortable to her) and suffered from some hygiene issues. He also chewed tobacco and expected big kisses even with his mouth full of chaw. Mr. Pearl was proud to point out that thanks to the mentoring of Mrs. Pearl this young girl came to accept her lot in life and realize that she needed to change her attitude about this man, but she had no right to expect any changes on his part. And they lived happily ever after. Forever. Or maybe it just felt like forever to the poor girl.

 

The fourth session was the most fun. It was about being a good husband. Mr. Pearl went around the church to each wife and gave them a piece of paper and a pencil and asked them to write down three things that they would like to see their husband do differently. He took up the paper and then spent the next hour or so talking about how to be a better husband by sanctifying your wife by having a lot of s#x. Or something like that. There were a lot of smiling men. Then he read the slips of paper one by one and made fun of the heartfelt requests of the wives as the husbands did their best to guess which one was written by their wives. My husband guessed and he teased me and it was a very dark place in our marriage for a little bit. It was humiliating and I was not the only one who left feeling shamed.

 

I think they are dreadful people. I think their books, their website, their newsletter, and their seminars are dreadful. I base this on what I have personally heard and read from them. None of it is based on second hand information.

 

Oh, (((Kelli))) I am SO sorry!! Your story has brought tears to my eyes. Words cannot express how awful I feel that you and your family had to experience this.

 

Despicable. Disgusting. Evil.

[Kelli in TN]

I am not usually paranoid about these things, but it really bothers me that someone lowered the rating on this thread. I gave it 5 stars because I so appreciated that people were coming forth and sharing experiences and testifying that there is a better way to teach children to behave.

 

And someone came along and made it a three.

 

It must have been someone who likes the Pearls. :confused:

 

 

I should probably just take a :chillpill: and not let it bother me. But it does.

[LisaNY]

Have you heard any of the lectures by the Ezzos? Their mainstream books have been whitewashed for public consumption. Their worldview is extremely similar to the Pearls.

 

And, it seems to be the case w/the books by the Pearls as well. Kelli's experience with them in person seems to prove it.

[LisaNY]

But couldn't this also be a really poor fit for you and your family? Michael Pearl has a very tongue-in-cheek sense of humor. I guess that maybe the reason I don't find it offensive is that I knew and loved several southern men in my family that reminded me of same. I don't feel belittled by his approach.

 

And the examples of his family. All of his children write articles and participate in their family ministry. They have high regard for their parents and in no way consider themselves to be abused. They do, in fact, seem to have great respect for their parents. His wife is in complete unity with him. She doesn't seem demeaned in any way.

 

It is awful that there was pain in your family from applying their teaching in your home. Honestly, my dh and I made some mistakes, too. However, our dc are younger and we have not suffered in the same way that you have.

 

I guess I'm just saying that maybe they aren't to blame for our mistakes. I also remember reading the Ezzos and hearing people at my church comment on their harsh teaching, and I would find myself thinking, "but that isn't what they are saying AT ALL!"

 

Anyway, I hope that my post isn't hurtful to you, Kelli. That is certainly not my intent.

 

Kim

 

But Kim, things aren't always as they "seem". I'm sure you have heard that victims of ritualistic abuse don't realize that they *are* being abused. They are brainwashed, and they go on to perpetuate it in their own families. The FLDS stories in the media are a perfect example of this.

 

Now, I am not saying that this is what is happening with the Pearls. I am just bringing it up to explain that people can "seem" and "act" fine, but that doesn't mean everything *is* fine.

[nmoira]

 

Read the books not the articles. I have read the articles against the Pearls. They have taken alot of stuff out of context. I also never heard of them stating to use a plumbing line.

Their words are not being taken out of context here. Every article I linked was written by Michael Pearl (they're all on the Pearl's website). The reason I linked rather than quoted was so that no one could say he was being taken out of context. I'm a big believer of letting people hang themselves with their own words.

[Kelli in TN]

Originally Posted by Mrs Mungo

Have you heard any of the lectures by the Ezzos? Their mainstream books have been whitewashed for public consumption. Their worldview is extremely similar to the Pearls.

 

And, it seems to be the case w/the books by the Pearls as well. Kelli's experience with them in person seems to prove it.

 

I was thinking about this last night. I did not actually read Babywise. I read Preparation for Parenting which was a book in a 3 ring binder. It was their actual curriculum for parenting classes.

 

I think Babywise was the cleaned up version of Preparation for Parenting. So I got to read the hard core version, but it could not have been sold to the general public. The scheduling of infants in that book was very tight.

 

I can't believe what a putz I was back then.

 

ETA: I did actually read the Ezzos book on teens, this was their published book for the general public, and it was really good. I wish I had read it earlier than I did. It was about respecting your teens feelings and creating a positive relationship with your teen. But it may have been a sanitized version as well.

[Ellie]

 

Why not?

 

Because the comments are usually based on other people's misquoting of what the Pearls wrote.

 

Someone could say she wasn't interested in reading what the Pearls have written, but they really couldn't have a valid POV about what the Pearls say or do, could they? They only have 2nd- or 3rd-hand knowledge, not much more, really, than gossip.

[WTMindy]

Awwww Kelli, don't say that! Remember, we do what we know and when we know better we do better.

 

Thank heavens for God's amazing grace, eh? I'm reading What's so Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey right now and I am just washed in the fact that God extends such grace to us. This is a piece that the Pearl's seem to leave out of their teaching.

[LisaNY]

nt

 

Yes! It was *that* good!! LOL

[WTMindy]

I have gotten some benefit from both the Pearls and the Babywise book. But - I read their materials with discretion and only chose to use those things that seemed to be of benefit to me.

 

From the Pearls:

 

1. I like the idea of "tying heart-strings" that was talked about in one of their books (I think it was the "Train up Your Child" book). What they talked about was taking the time to sit down with your child and mend the relationship when things had gotten "off" between you.

 

2. I learned that it was much more important to train your child in what he/she should do instead of just focusing on what he/she shouldn't do.

 

3. I learned (in a series of articles on kids "jumping ship") that it is important to have fun with your children and to let them see that living a godly life is a blast instead of a dark dreary thing (that they would love to get away from as soon as they can).

 

From Babywise:

 

1. I learned that having a routine (not a schedule tied to the clock) is a beneficial thing for me and my baby and made things easier for us in the toddler years. I did not make my babies wait to eat if they were hungry.

 

Jean, I could have written this post also! There are some great principles in both the Pearls and the Ezzos. These are some of the same things I have liked in what they have written. But, I must also say that I never read the Pearls without having some cringe about something they said. There is such an apparent lack of grace in their writing that I can't read them anymore.

 

I will also say that I do support schedule feeding (using common sense as a guide rather than the clock, not expecting other moms to feel the same way or expect that our kids will grow up sanctified because we did it that "way" :001_smile:) and spanking (which I *do* differentiate from abuse, but please don't throw rotten fruit at me). But, I could not support the materials by the Ezzos or the Pearls because of the lack of grace and tolerance for other methods of parenting.

[Joanne]

spanking (which I *do* differentiate from abuse, but please don't throw rotten fruit at me).

 

No fruit throwing at all. I'm against spanking but I completely, totally agree with you. In fact, I hate it when discussions of the Pearls (or Ezzo, Gothard, Tripp, Dobson......) turn into spanking debates.

 

My concern(s) about the Pearls are not about *spanking*.

[clarkacademy]

O.K. I think I have learned enough to never want to read anything by these crazy people. Thanks to all who have shared and showed me the light. I will say I am very sorry about my punctuation. I really just never think of it. I guess I should realize that even as an adult some may find that it is hard to read without all the grammer tricks. I hate proper grammer and all that nicety nonsense I will admit. I hated doing it in highschool. I hated doing it in college. I really hated it when I was a tutor. I will try to make all correct posts from now on. In a conversation that is centering around child abuse, moral bancruptcy and harmed families punctuation is very important. I really appreciate the poster who stated that should not be done in public, thank you. I will ask that if anyone feels the need to be an english teacher to me please do it in private and I don't think it deserves negative rep. Thank you to everyone who has shared all your thoughts and expierences with the Pearls and the Ezzo people. I am always on the look out to learn better methods with my wild boy so these are some I can just by pass all together now. For the Keli who let these people into her life trustingly to only get bitten I am truly sorry. I hope you and your older children can travel pass this and have a healthy loving relationship. It is hard to go back, my mom made mistakes too. I forgave her because I know she was sorry. Please do not be too haunted if you truly were a bad mother God would not have allowed you to raise more of His gifts. Like I had said before the other groups I am on you can not talk about this stuff so I have never really learned about it. I think it is really nice that there is a board where people can talk about this stuff.

[nmoira]

No fruit throwing at all. I'm against spanking but I completely, totally agree with you. In fact, I hate it when discussions of the Pearls (or Ezzo, Gothard, Tripp, Dobson......) turn into spanking debates.

 

My concern(s) about the Pearls are not about *spanking*.

My thoughts almost exactly.

 

Edited to add for the sake of:

This is because I don't view what the Pearls advocate *as* spanking.

[HRAAB]

I've refrained from making any comments, because words cannot even describe how the Pearls make me feel. Yes, I've read the book, his articles, his website. I've read what he wrote in context. I wish I could produce some sympathy for his warped mind. But, I cannot.

 

Early, early on, with our first, not much with our second, we tried his methods. These older two are the ones who have suffered the most - especially our oldest. I have sobbed because I cannot rewind the clock and do it differently. But there you are.

 

I proud to say my youngest three have never been hit, they've never been set up for failure, they were nursed on demand until they were 3 or 4 yrs., co-slept with mom and dad, carried, held and loved, when they scraped their knee they got kisses and bandaids. You know what? The times when they need disciplining are so rare that I really can't remember the last one. They are not whiny, spoiled or selfish. Amazing.

 

When one writes a book like what Pearl has written, he is stepping into dangerous territory. Especially when he presents it as the right, true Christian way to raise children. (Like the title of the Ezzo book: Raising Kids God's Way.) Some people can read his writings and take bits and pieces. Others are most apt to try and follow explicitly his instructions. Whether he intended it or not, he gave parents the tools and instructions to be abusive. Of course, the final responsibility lies with us, the parents. But without his (Pearl) instruction, my oldest children's younger years would have been different. What if someone had handed me a book about attachment parenting?

 

Janet

[Kelli in TN]

 

I will also say that I do support schedule feeding (using common sense as a guide rather than the clock, not expecting other moms to feel the same way or expect that our kids will grow up sanctified because we did it that "way" :001_smile:) and spanking (which I *do* differentiate from abuse, but please don't throw rotten fruit at me). But, I could not support the materials by the Ezzos or the Pearls because of the lack of grace and tolerance for other methods of parenting.

 

I am not anti-spanking at all. Sometimes a quick pop with an open hand on the behind of a stubborn or out of control kid is the quickest way to get their attention.

 

But good golly, they make it into a ritual and it is disturbing. When you outline what implement to use, what position to put the child in, etc it is too much.

[clarkacademy]

Hey Janet I slept with my babies too. Got alot of grief for it but nursing is much easier that way. I also found that when they are hungry and you tend to feed them they cry alot less. Mine did anyway.:grouphug: