How does one provide a classical education? Circe Institute lovers?

[ElizaG]

To Andrew Kern -- I'm so glad you're here! :) I have a question...

 

In the "Good to Great" talk, Dr. Taylor spoke of the child "creeping like snail unwillingly to school." He suggested that this was an important rite of passage, and that homeschooling -- while necessary in the present circumstances -- wasn't ideal in this respect. This reminded me of something. Perhaps you have some ideas to share about it.

 

As mothers, we're inclined to want to make everything enjoyable for the children. I think this is partly because it's a familiar way to show our love for them, and partly because it's often easier and more appealing for us, too. So we have an interesting situation going on, in that some very traditionally minded homeschoolers are going about things in a way that would only be seen at the most extreme progressivist brick & mortar schools. Loungewear and lessons on the couch; changing curriculum when it starts to seem tedious; adding or dropping subjects to suit the child's desires; spontaneously taking days or weeks off to pursue projects; etc.

 

My eldest are 6 and 8 -- right around the snail-like schoolboy's age :) -- so this is a timely issue for our family right now. Some people take the position that the specific content and skills are what we need to get across, but I'm starting to think that the context is at least as important. Not just the relationship between the teacher and the student (which we all acknowledge as something irreplaceable), but also the outer structure such as location, schedule, sitting and listening, standing and doing oral recitations, and so on. I get the sense that these aren't just trappings, but are somehow important to the whole business, both for sensory development and for the formation of habits.

 

This isn't to say that we should set up our house as a copy of P.S. 23, or build a replica of Plato's Academy in the back yard. ;) But (at the risk of being pilloried by those who believe that homeschooling is ideal in every way), are there possibly some disadvantages to too much flexibility, too much individualization, too much comfy-casualness... too much mom? And if so, how do we get around this?

[justamouse]

I see what you mean about young children's experience. But if numbers are in some way a reflection of of the Divine, then they are relevant in that they help to prepare us for worship -- which is ultimately where all this culture of ours is leading. (It just doesn't seem like a proper mega-thread until someone mentions Josef Pieper ;), so here goes: Leisure, The Basis of Culture.)

 

I'm not sure if that's what you meant by parlor tricks. Certainly, it's often presented in that way, and some people never see much beyond that. But I don't think it's necessary. We've been doing some learning about the Renaissance over here, and have already had some interesting discussions about the Golden Ratio. Above all, I think this is a lesson in humility. "The world is charged with the grandeur of God."

 

I have that book, made it 1/4 though and have been side tracked ever since. I even vowed to make it my lenten reading. :glare: I've got how many days left? Sigh.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I'm getting out the duct tape to wrap around my head before it explodes.:lol: Some of these ideas I've stumbled on and use in my presentation with my kids but I have also felt I would do my children a disservice if I didn't cover the same things the PS does. I'm feeling a need to delve deeper and trust my instincts more. Thank you Mr. Kern for giving me a starting point to work with as I try to figure it all out.

[8filltheheart]

That's a good start. Now direct your attention from the math (the tool) to the child and ask what goes on in his mind when he does math.

 

If you are uncomfortable with math, notice some things you said:

 

1. there are facts. What should your child do with those facts?

2. They need to be understood. This is a harder question, so we can come back to it, but: how does one come to understand facts?

3. Here is how 3+2=5 and never 6. Notice that you are talking about how to do something here, which requires an ability, while facts just have to be remembered. You've identified three different kinds of thing to teach.

 

Let's think about one of them at a time and start with facts. What does your child need to do to or with the math facts? Or put another way, what do the math facts demand of your child's mind?

 

Ok.....I have finished most of my teaching for the day and the little one is still asleep, so I have precious few minutes undisturbed.

 

For those that struggle w/appreciating math, I think you can flip the bolded around and ask the questions in terms of literary quality to help understand (why read the great books vs. Twilight?) What distinguishes the 2? How does great work of literature form thoughts toward the good and the truth vs. popular lit? Why struggle through elevated language? How does literature reveal/train/teach the mind?

 

W/math, memorization, regurgitation, chug and plug approaches reduce math to popular lit. Yes, math does reveal the truth that the universe is mathematically consistent and obeys the same laws of physics (provable by math), but students that do not understand what they are doing will not be able to see the truth b/c it has not been revealed to them. They are simply accepting someone else's definition of reality and truth. Give a child the challenge of understanding the process and confirming the formulas via their own proofs......those children own the truth via their own validation of what math is.

 

For me, it all comes back to what is the purpose of education in the first place? Why choose classical vs. traditional stack of textbooks? Textbooks pre-digest all the information, sort through what the authors have decided is the reality they want students to accept and all the students have to do is simply be a sponge (or a worker ant) and replicate verbatim what they have been told. Classical education wants to form the mind to think. To analyze. To be free to form their own thoughts. (the freedom to seek the end for which we are created)

 

Problem-solving via math trains the mind to think. It forces order to thoughts b/c math is not chaos. Math is order. It brings order to understanding cosmos and culture (as in the understanding of creation and that cultures throughout history have some form of cult (worship) of creation being divine (whatever the culture's definition of divine is)) b/c creation is order and the math behind creation is consistent.

 

And dd just reminded me that I haven't done history w/her yet, so I am not done and I don't have the opportunity to even proof-read this. ;)

Edited March 20, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[CourtneySue]

Andrew Kern-- thank you so much for what you had to say here. I plan on pondering these things, getting out a notebook, and seeing what comes from it.

 

I'm curious what you mean when you say the classical curriculum has become over grown?

 

Thank you so much for not providing a book list. I think book lists can be a great source of anxiety for us homeschoolers. I remember reading Charlotte Mason say that she was asked to put together a list of the 100 most important books for children to read and she refused. I think it shows humility and wisdom.

 

 

To Andrew Kern -- I'm so glad you're here! :) I have a question...

 

In the "Good to Great" talk, Dr. Taylor spoke of the child "creeping like snail unwillingly to school." He suggested that this was an important rite of passage, and that homeschooling -- while necessary in the present circumstances -- wasn't ideal in this respect. This reminded me of something. Perhaps you have some ideas to share about it.

 

As mothers, we're inclined to want to make everything enjoyable for the children. I think this is partly because it's a familiar way to show our love for them, and partly because it's often easier and more appealing for us, too. So we have an interesting situation going on, in that some very traditionally minded homeschoolers are going about things in a way that would only be seen at the most extreme progressivist brick & mortar schools. Loungewear and lessons on the couch; changing curriculum when it starts to seem tedious; adding or dropping subjects to suit the child's desires; spontaneously taking days or weeks off to pursue projects; etc.

 

My eldest are 6 and 8 -- right around the snail-like schoolboy's age :) -- so this is a timely issue for our family right now. Some people take the position that the specific content and skills are what we need to get across, but I'm starting to think that the context is at least as important. Not just the relationship between the teacher and the student (which we all acknowledge as something irreplaceable), but also the outer structure such as location, schedule, sitting and listening, standing and doing oral recitations, and so on. I get the sense that these aren't just trappings, but are somehow important to the whole business, both for sensory development and for the formation of habits.

 

This isn't to say that we should set up our house as a copy of P.S. 23, or build a replica of Plato's Academy in the back yard. ;) But (at the risk of being pilloried by those who believe that homeschooling is ideal in every way), are there possibly some disadvantages to too much flexibility, too much individualization, too much comfy-casualness... too much mom? And if so, how do we get around this?

 

I am curious to see what Kern's response to your questions are. I heard Taylor say the same thing, and then when I was listening to the current interview they have with him on the Circe blog he said something similar or at least int the same vein (http://circeinstitute.com/2012/03/podcast-3112-dr-james-taylor/). But this time he was just saying that it shows wisdom if someone realizes that they can't homeschool, in the same way that not everyone can be a plumber. At the same time, he did seem to imply that homeschooling definitely comes with advantages and often times it's enlightening for parents when they realize that they can do it.

 

To your questions in the last paragraph, it seems that's why creating independence in children is key, but I've barely begun this homeschooling journey so I really don't speak from experience, only what I've read and what I've heard the veterans say.

[CourtneySue]

I just want to add that I wish there was a whole forum for this discussion not a single thread. I can't express how much I'm getting out of everything that everyone has had to say on here.

[birchbark]

I just had a thought here along the lines of the post which pointed out the books that the authors of the Good Books had read. I realized most of those authors probably had not worked though a Great Books curriculum of 100's of titles. What they had available to them was far less than what we have today. I guess it just drove home that it is all about quality, not quantity. And that lifts a burden as well.

[stripe]

I read something that said that too many people focus on having read the great books, not on the reading experience of them. It's something to have "finished."

 

That being said, the book I read this in is on the tip of my tongue so I can't properly attribute it.

[*Jessica*]

I read something that said that too many people focus on having read the great books, not on the reading experience of them. It's something to have "finished."

 

That being said, the book I read this in is on the tip of my tongue so I can't properly attribute it.

Could it be from this talk? Dr. James Taylor – Good to Great: Teaching Literature From Grammar to Rhetoric. I'm listening to it right now and what you said is something he mentioned. Perhaps it was from a book he wrote?

[stripe]

Could it be from this talk? Dr. James Taylor – Good to Great: Teaching Literature From Grammar to Rhetoric. I'm listening to it right now and what you said is something he mentioned. Perhaps it was from a book he wrote?

 

No, I got it from interlibrary loan so I can't find a record of it easily. The author actually is not a fan of booklists and said he doesn't like recommending books to people.

 

I am trying to narrow down who said it!

 

Eta - at any rate, Umberto Eco's definitions of the classics are considerably more optimistic, especially the idea that ine rereads them.

Edited March 20, 2012 by stripe

[Kfamily]

Thank you all. Thank you Andrew Kern. You've given me the tools I needed to finally approach organizing and planning the many books/ideas my children ask me to teach them. I didn't have the words yet to know how to ask for them. Now I will be taking that notebook with tools in hand. Thank you 8FilltheHeart for your most recent post. This too gave me much to think upon and the words that helped me to think about math that I've been missing. My older dd is a little anti-math (:001_smile:) and I would love to read to her your words.

I wish we had a way of keeping this conversation alive as well. I have a question to ask that is related to this thread, but is not on the topic of math.

 

 

Here is one question (as I'm sure I will have so many more):

I've been thinking about this ever since this thread first appeared. I'd love to find a list of questions that will be get me started (and I hope that once I get the ideas going I won't need but a few examples) which I can use for every book, or piece of art, or idea that I want to read, appreciate or examine more deeply. I want to know what general questions I can ask myself, and in turn ask my children, to help us find the beauty, truth and good in everything we see. For example, my younger dd and I are beginning to read A Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge. What types of questions should I keep in mind as we read and discuss it? I know that as we read I will be able to ask, "What is beautiful about this idea?" (What makes an idea beautiful?) or "What is good about this action?" etc. Is this the right idea? I always feel like my questions are too simple and that I miss some really important questions. Would anyone be willing to point out a few I've missed?

 

Thanks again to everyone. You ladies and gentlemen are wonderful.

[Joyofsixreboot]

.

 

 

Here is one question (as I'm sure I will have so many more):

I've been thinking about this ever since this thread first appeared. I'd love to find a list of questions that will be get me started (and I hope that once I get the ideas going I won't need but a few examples) which I can use for every book, or piece of art, or idea that I want to read, appreciate or examine more deeply. I want to know what general questions I can ask myself, and in turn ask my children, to help us find the beauty, truth and good in everything we see. For example, my younger dd and I are beginning to read A Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge. What types of questions should I keep in mind as we read and discuss it? I know that as we read I will be able to ask, "What is beautiful about this idea?" (What makes an idea beautiful?) or "What is good about this action?" etc. Is this the right idea? I always feel like my questions are too simple and that I miss some really important questions. Would anyone be willing to point out a few I've missed?

 

Thanks again to everyone. You ladies and gentlemen are wonderful.

 

I was thinking about this also. I feel poorly equipped for this even after taking honors lit classes in college. It was so long ago and my brain has become quite mushy since then.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I read something that said that too many people focus on having read the great books, not on the reading experience of them. It's something to have "finished."

 

That being said, the book I read this in is on the tip of my tongue so I can't properly attribute it.

 

When I first started studying the realm of books, contents, and how they fit into an education...I was completely devoid of any knowledge of the difference and/or qualities and reasoning between the two classes of books..

 

The 2 classes being the "Good" and the "Great"

 

I wish they were addressed with different starting letters...like "Black" and "White".

 

The difference between them are as wide as it gets.

 

I just wanted to pause and point that out, I totally blew by it on my first dive in....I had no awareness that they are handled and spoken about differently.

 

So hopefully by my mistake, I offer something to learn by. :)

 

SWB, in her book, The Well Educated Mind, deals with a smattering survey of the GREAT books, not the GOOD.

 

Try dissecting that book- it's a humdinger and can keep you up at night. I'm only 2 categories deep of the 13 laid out within it, and I'm a full-grown critically thinking adult. That is an entirely significant work, and anyone studying this classification of "GREAT" owes it to themselves to own and attempt it.

 

It is one of the most difficult texts I've ever handled, and I love every minute of it. :)

 

If you don't own it, go get it. Today.

 

If you want to know what it means to "experience" a GREAT book, that's your roadmap, and SWB is a fine companion on the journey.

[CourtneySue]

Thank you all. Thank you Andrew Kern. You've given me the tools I needed to finally approach organizing and planning the many books/ideas my children ask me to teach them. I didn't have the words yet to know how to ask for them. Now I will be taking that notebook with tools in hand. Thank you 8FilltheHeart for your most recent post. This too gave me much to think upon and the words that helped me to think about math that I've been missing. My older dd is a little anti-math (:001_smile:) and I would love to read to her your words.

I wish we had a way of keeping this conversation alive as well. I have a question to ask that is related to this thread, but is not on the topic of math.

 

 

Here is one question (as I'm sure I will have so many more):

I've been thinking about this ever since this thread first appeared. I'd love to find a list of questions that will be get me started (and I hope that once I get the ideas going I won't need but a few examples) which I can use for every book, or piece of art, or idea that I want to read, appreciate or examine more deeply. I want to know what general questions I can ask myself, and in turn ask my children, to help us find the beauty, truth and good in everything we see. For example, my younger dd and I are beginning to read A Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge. What types of questions should I keep in mind as we read and discuss it? I know that as we read I will be able to ask, "What is beautiful about this idea?" (What makes an idea beautiful?) or "What is good about this action?" etc. Is this the right idea? I always feel like my questions are too simple and that I miss some really important questions. Would anyone be willing to point out a few I've missed?

 

Thanks again to everyone. You ladies and gentlemen are wonderful.

 

I know there's at least one question I've heard Kern mention that's worth asking: Should x have done y? Yes/no? Why?

 

Should Edmund have followed the white witch?

Should Goldilocks have gone in the bears' house?

Should the bears have gone for a walk?

Should Elephant be afraid of the grasshopper?

 

The possibilities are endless. It allows the child to think about the decisions that are made and whether they are good or bad. I think that when a child starts thinking through these things that it's one way to begin to cultivate wisdom.

[CourtneySue]

Ok.....I have finished most of my teaching for the day and the little one is still asleep, so I have precious few minutes undisturbed.

 

For those that struggle w/appreciating math, I think you can flip the bolded around and ask the questions in terms of literary quality to help understand (why read the great books vs. Twilight?) What distinguishes the 2? How does great work of literature form thoughts toward the good and the truth vs. popular lit? Why struggle through elevated language? How does literature reveal/train/teach the mind?

 

W/math, memorization, regurgitation, chug and plug approaches reduce math to popular lit. Yes, math does reveal the truth that the universe is mathematically consistent and obeys the same laws of physics (provable by math), but students that do not understand what they are doing will not be able to see the truth b/c it has not been revealed to them. They are simply accepting someone else's definition of reality and truth. Give a child the challenge of understanding the process and confirming the formulas via their own proofs......those children own the truth via their own validation of what math is.

 

For me, it all comes back to what is the purpose of education in the first place? Why choose classical vs. traditional stack of textbooks? Textbooks pre-digest all the information, sort through what the authors have decided is the reality they want students to accept and all the students have to do is simply be a sponge (or a worker ant) and replicate verbatim what they have been told. Classical education wants to form the mind to think. To analyze. To be free to form their own thoughts. (the freedom to seek the end for which we are created)

 

Problem-solving via math trains the mind to think. It forces order to thoughts b/c math is not chaos. Math is order. It brings order to understanding cosmos and culture (as in the understanding of creation and that cultures throughout history have some form of cult (worship) of creation being divine (whatever the culture's definition of divine is)) b/c creation is order and the math behind creation is consistent.

 

And dd just reminded me that I haven't done history w/her yet, so I am not done and I don't have the opportunity to even proof-read this. ;)

 

I have really enjoyed reading everything you've had to say in this thread. I wish you kept a blog that I could follow.:)

[Kfamily]

That's right, I remember that now! Thanks! I liked how your examples keep me thinking of more.

[4Kiddos]

When I first started studying the realm of books, contents, and how they fit into an education...I was completely devoid of any knowledge of the difference and/or qualities and reasoning between the two classes of books..

 

The 2 classes being the "Good" and the "Great"

 

I wish they were addressed with different starting letters...like "Black" and "White".

 

The difference between them are as wide as it gets.

 

I just wanted to pause and point that out, I totally blew by it on my first dive in....I had no awareness that they are handled and spoken about differently.

 

Well, I must have blown it already because I am not sure that I understand the difference between a good book and a great book. Is a great book the same thing as a living book? Perhaps could you help me with these examples.

 

I think that I understand what a good book is. For example, in children's picture books, NOT Disney books but McCloskey or Burton. So would a great book be Lang's Fairy Books and not McCloskey or Burton? And, should you only provide great books for your children and not good books?:confused:

[Bang!Zoom!]

Well, I must have blown it already because I am not sure that I understand the difference between a good book and a great book. Is a great book the same thing as a living book? Perhaps could you help me with these examples.

 

I think that I understand what a good book is. For example, in children's picture books, NOT Disney books but McCloskey or Burton. So would a great book be Lang's Fairy Books and not McCloskey or Burton? And, should you only provide great books for your children and not good books?:confused:

 

Try this M of 3 -

 

http://circeinstitute.com/2012/03/podcast-3112-dr-james-taylor/

 

This is Dr. Taylor who teaches at Circe. Do keep a notebook while you are listening. This talk will totally get your heart rate up.

 

Try to listen to this when you can afford the quiet space in life. It's an important talk, you'll want to focus hard and listen carefully.

 

ps: That last question of yours, it's the other way around. Do not provide GREAT books to a child..

 

Provide the GOOD first...

 

It's foundation work for later contemplation.

Edited March 21, 2012 by one*mom

[ElizaG]

The "great books" are the ones that are considered to be foundational works of Western culture. They're typically studied in high school, college, and beyond. There's no one list, but here are some examples:

 

Great Books of the Western World

 

St. John's College Reading List

 

Syllabus of Thomas Aquinas College

 

List from How to Read a Book

 

Good books are books that are good, but are not great books. (sorry... not so helpful there... :lol:)

Edited March 21, 2012 by Eleanor

[ladydusk]

No, I got it from interlibrary loan so I can't find a record of it easily. The author actually is not a fan of booklists and said he doesn't like recommending books to people.

 

I am trying to narrow down who said it!

 

Eta - at any rate, Umberto Eco's definitions of the classics are considerably more optimistic, especially the idea that ine rereads them.

 

The Pleasures of Reading in an Age of Distraction by Alan Jacobs? Fantastic read.

[Bang!Zoom!]

These are my choppy notepad notes from Dr. Taylors talk...they really need refined on a third listening of that lecture. I don't know if this is helpful or not..

 

college town - atmosphere, relected in the high school, interest was in literature

 

Mortimer Adler, real mover, Robert Hutchins - influence along with Paradise Lost being a GB, slowly with a guide/teacher..assimilate contrary ideas, energizing from the jarring effect of opposite ideas..recongizintion of errors, can't first recognize them if you don't know the standard...

 

students today, John Senior, always taught at the high school level..they teach selections of GB - students become engaged in ancient texts, making comparisions from ancient to contemporary...what would Plato say about government then compared to now..

 

The Good Books...Charles Dickens, Mark Twain, Hawthorne..these are all books everybody read- and most folks had 8th grade education...1925, Charge of the LIght Brigrade..Wordsworth, Uncle Tom's Cabin- that led to literary culuture.

 

Returning to the Good Books, was the best preparation to read the Great Books.

 

Difference between "Good Books" to "Great Books".

 

Favorite works to teach? Teaching/Reading with Students. No television until 12/13 years old.

 

Reading to/Instruction difference - engagement. It's action/adventure opposed to a documentary. It happens in the moment. It's conversation with a purpose. The excellence of text that is dealt with, it becomes guided and loyal...

 

There is artistic truth & theme within these texts. It has significance. He prefers no notes, interferes w/listening & interaction. "The Poetic Way of Preparation"

 

Lose yourself in the material. Even informational material. Marginational. Mark up the book. If you can think in metaphor, you can mediate, be absorbed, where are the analogies for students? We learn through comparisons.

 

Making connections. It's trusting the truth and the beauty of the text to hold you up. Take the back roads. That's the model to have in mind.

 

Become ancedotal, reminesce...tell stories.

 

This cannot be done with a lesson plan and paraphanalia.

 

How do you determine whether or not you are successful?

 

Collegial, engaging ways, dealing with material....some subjects require repetition and transfer to grading, records...make it easy, just evaluate and go on.

 

There is a temptation in institutional teaching to grade, benchmark.

[ladydusk]

Here is one question (as I'm sure I will have so many more):

I've been thinking about this ever since this thread first appeared. I'd love to find a list of questions that will be get me started (and I hope that once I get the ideas going I won't need but a few examples) which I can use for every book, or piece of art, or idea that I want to read, appreciate or examine more deeply. I want to know what general questions I can ask myself, and in turn ask my children, to help us find the beauty, truth and good in everything we see. For example, my younger dd and I are beginning to read A Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge. What types of questions should I keep in mind as we read and discuss it? I know that as we read I will be able to ask, "What is beautiful about this idea?" (What makes an idea beautiful?) or "What is good about this action?" etc. Is this the right idea? I always feel like my questions are too simple and that I miss some really important questions. Would anyone be willing to point out a few I've missed?

 

Thanks again to everyone. You ladies and gentlemen are wonderful.

 

I think one of Kern's favorite questions is "Should?" I don't know the book you're reading, but "Should so and so do this?" (Should Edmund go to the White Witch?"

 

We're reading Little Britches and tonight I asked, "Should Father have accepted the offered feed from Fred Autland?" At first, several of us seemed to think "yes" but as we talked about it more (my husband and I being "we") we thought about all the circumstances and decided that, no, Father was being wise.

[Bang!Zoom!]

The Pleasures of Reading in an Age of Distraction by Alan Jacobs? Fantastic read.

 

Browsed through the online preview.

 

I didn't have an Amazon wishlist until today. :) Thanks Dawn, that's a lovely one. :drool5:

[Andrew Kern]

Because I want to offer some practical thoughts as well, let me offer you some actionable ideas that I think you'll all find helpful as you think through these many issues (I get giddy thinking about how much thought you are putting into raising your children - they will be blessed for it!).

 

Maintain your balance by including skills, ideas, AND facts in your instruction. For example, in math, students need to flat out master the math facts. That comes through drill and repetition - no other way.

 

In addition, they need to understand mathematical ideas, and all of them depend on math facts. A mathematical idea can be as abstract as the definition of a point (my favorite is Euclid's: a point is that which has no part), a half concrete/half abstract principle like the distributive property, or something very concrete like the way you add two digit numbers together (on paper: first you add the one's column, then you add the ten's column).

 

And finally, they need to get good at executing mathematical skills, like adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, estimating, measuring, etc. etc.

 

In learning, the reason we learn facts and skills is so that we can perceive the truths they enable us to see.

 

So a practical tip I would offer is that when you prepare each lesson, you focus your attention on the idea you want your child to understand. Then identify the skills they'll need to practice in order to see the idea. Then identify the facts or data they'll need to know in order to see the idea.

 

However, at first this will be time consuming, so only do it for one class the first week. The first time you do anything it takes a lot longer, so don't worry about how long it takes. You'll get quicker and quicker as you better understand how to do it.

 

But when you do it, you'll find that your teaching orders itself to what matters most: truth.

 

Two exceptions: sometimes a lesson is specifically for practicing a skill, such as spelling, reading, writing, adding, etc (if it's a verb, it's a skill). In that case, focus on the facts they'll need to know to practice the skill (e.g. 3+2=5 is a fact they'll need to know to add quickly) and the ideas they'll need to understand (e.g. to divide one number by another, you determine how many of the latter will fit into the former).

 

Sometimes a lesson is for learning facts, such as history names, dates, and places. In that case, all you need to do is give them the facts and make sure they keep them.

 

This leads me to a further thought on a crucial difference between learning natures and learning conventions, both of which are necessary, but neither of which I can write about right now. Maybe I can get to it tomorrow.

 

I really appreciate this discussion and hope to see some of you at least at the upcoming Great Home School Conventions. If you're in Greenville this week, please stop by and say hi!

 

God bless your teaching/parenting!!!!

[justamouse]

Maintain your balance by including skills, ideas, AND facts in your instruction. For example, in math, students need to flat out master the math facts. That comes through drill and repetition - no other way.

 

In addition, they need to understand mathematical ideas, and all of them depend on math facts. A mathematical idea can be as abstract as the definition of a point (my favorite is Euclid's: a point is that which has no part), a half concrete/half abstract principle like the distributive property, or something very concrete like the way you add two digit numbers together (on paper: first you add the one's column, then you add the ten's column).

 

And finally, they need to get good at executing mathematical skills, like adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, estimating, measuring, etc. etc.

 

In learning, the reason we learn facts and skills is so that we can perceive the truths they enable us to see.

 

So a practical tip I would offer is that when you prepare each lesson, you focus your attention on the idea you want your child to understand. Then identify the skills they'll need to practice in order to see the idea. Then identify the facts or data they'll need to know in order to see the idea.

 

However, at first this will be time consuming, so only do it for one class the first week. The first time you do anything it takes a lot longer, so don't worry about how long it takes. You'll get quicker and quicker as you better understand how to do it.

 

But when you do it, you'll find that your teaching orders itself to what matters most: truth.

 

Two exceptions: sometimes a lesson is specifically for practicing a skill, such as spelling, reading, writing, adding, etc (if it's a verb, it's a skill). In that case, focus on the facts they'll need to know to practice the skill (e.g. 3+2=5 is a fact they'll need to know to add quickly) and the ideas they'll need to understand (e.g. to divide one number by another, you determine how many of the latter will fit into the former).

 

Sometimes a lesson is for learning facts, such as history names, dates, and places. In that case, all you need to do is give them the facts and make sure they keep them.

 

Thank you for coming back! The bolded-that comes SO easily for me with literature, poetry and grammar-for math? Not at all. I had *never* thought of attacking a math lesson that way, I just taught them what the book told me to teach them.

 

That one exercise alone is going to be very hard for me, but I'm thankful you pointed it out.

 

I can say I'm all for memorizing those basic math facts. :D

[justamouse]

Ok.....I have finished most of my teaching for the day and the little one is still asleep, so I have precious few minutes undisturbed.

 

For those that struggle w/appreciating math, I think you can flip the bolded around and ask the questions in terms of literary quality to help understand (why read the great books vs. Twilight?) What distinguishes the 2? How does great work of literature form thoughts toward the good and the truth vs. popular lit? Why struggle through elevated language? How does literature reveal/train/teach the mind?

 

W/math, memorization, regurgitation, chug and plug approaches reduce math to popular lit. Yes, math does reveal the truth that the universe is mathematically consistent and obeys the same laws of physics (provable by math), but students that do not understand what they are doing will not be able to see the truth b/c it has not been revealed to them. They are simply accepting someone else's definition of reality and truth. Give a child the challenge of understanding the process and confirming the formulas via their own proofs......those children own the truth via their own validation of what math is.

 

For me, it all comes back to what is the purpose of education in the first place? Why choose classical vs. traditional stack of textbooks? Textbooks pre-digest all the information, sort through what the authors have decided is the reality they want students to accept and all the students have to do is simply be a sponge (or a worker ant) and replicate verbatim what they have been told. Classical education wants to form the mind to think. To analyze. To be free to form their own thoughts. (the freedom to seek the end for which we are created)

 

Problem-solving via math trains the mind to think. It forces order to thoughts b/c math is not chaos. Math is order. It brings order to understanding cosmos and culture (as in the understanding of creation and that cultures throughout history have some form of cult (worship) of creation being divine (whatever the culture's definition of divine is)) b/c creation is order and the math behind creation is consistent.

 

And dd just reminded me that I haven't done history w/her yet, so I am not done and I don't have the opportunity to even proof-read this. ;)

 

Such a great post-esp the bolded for me. Thank you.

[shanezomom]

 

But when you do it, you'll find that your teaching orders itself to what matters most: truth.

 

/QUOTE]

 

If this thread ever dies out, I think I shall cry.

 

I had an "uh oh" moment reading the above line of Andrew's. I am such a product of relativism and postmodernism that I pretty much limit what I see as truth to very few things, mostly related to God. I just learned tonight that I really need to think on this, not just for my sake, but for my ds.

 

Andrew also said something several pages back in this thread: "The trouble with conventional education is that it is oriented toward the wrong goals. It is about power in one form or another. Classical education subordinates power to the quest for virtue, especially wisdom."

That's exactly why I majored in political science in college because I was fascinated by who had power in our culture and who didn't. And do we realize what power we have by stepping out of that paradigm? Wow, this seems like such new territory.

 

I want to be able to help our son see more about the truth of things than I think I do...so this thread is like a balm right now. Obviously there are many of us hungering for this deeper dialogue about where this journey is taking all of us. I am so honored to have this time with my son as my most important work for these few precious years. We are equipping our kids with the tools to surpass us in understanding these things, and that's a truth I can understand.

 

Thanks for all these great posts to read.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Shanez - me..poly sci background also :handshake: We should talk about Harold Lasswell sometime (grin)

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I offer you a couple of small detours (evil laugh) - try these names/theorist stuff on Google:

 

1. Albert Nock

2. Prussian Education

 

If you get really spun out on them and how it fits into all this, I'm willing to talk about it...there's probably a couple more of us in this tank also.

 

The reason reading the direct opposite of this which we are discussing & why it's important is that it helps you to even further clarify and affirm your course and plans.

 

Might leave you sleepless now and then, but there's supreme value in the addage that logic and analytically thinking fears nothing and lets all points of view in.

 

Somedays, I feel like I could get up and recite every word spoken in Mr. Kern's talk (Analytical Learning) - but at the moment I'm on overload (which is common these days) and can't pull the direct quote from my head.

 

Go ahead, score me at C- today on this....I just wanted to throw this down because in my experience, this is a valuable skill..that is to say, study both sides of the coin and the thoughts you find.

 

I want to say it's like buffing a diamond or something.

 

If anyone wants to talk about the decent drapery issue, I love that part also! :lol:

 

Moral imagination as a concept and tool - oh boy, now is that a feast of thoughts.

Edited March 21, 2012 by one*mom
kitten killing :)

[SunnyDays]

I agree, thanks for all these great posts. You have so many great ideas and insights. Andrew, thank you for coming here to share your thoughts... I am sure we can all learn so much from them.

 

For the moment, my head is spinning. I think I need to absorb and re-read this for a while. It's definitely sparked some deep thought for me.

[4Kiddos]

Try this M of 3 -

 

http://circeinstitute.com/2012/03/podcast-3112-dr-james-taylor/

 

This is Dr. Taylor who teaches at Circe. Do keep a notebook while you are listening. This talk will totally get your heart rate up.

 

Try to listen to this when you can afford the quiet space in life. It's an important talk, you'll want to focus hard and listen carefully.

 

ps: That last question of yours, it's the other way around. Do not provide GREAT books to a child..

 

Provide the GOOD first...

 

It's foundation work for later contemplation.

 

Sheesh...I feel dumb:blushing: I have been listening to the other talks by CiRCE and hadn't seen this one. But, then I realized it has been linked to already.

 

Thanks so much! My little guys are in bed so I am going to listen to this now. You are so kind! Thanks!

[simka2]

 

But when you do it, you'll find that your teaching orders itself to what matters most: truth.

 

/QUOTE]

 

If this thread ever dies out, I think I shall cry.

 

I had an "uh oh" moment reading the above line of Andrew's. I am such a product of relativism and postmodernism that I pretty much limit what I see as truth to very few things, mostly related to God. I just learned tonight that I really need to think on this, not just for my sake, but for my ds.

 

Andrew also said something several pages back in this thread: "The trouble with conventional education is that it is oriented toward the wrong goals. It is about power in one form or another. Classical education subordinates power to the quest for virtue, especially wisdom."

That's exactly why I majored in political science in college because I was fascinated by who had power in our culture and who didn't. And do we realize what power we have by stepping out of that paradigm? Wow, this seems like such new territory.

 

I want to be able to help our son see more about the truth of things than I think I do...so this thread is like a balm right now. Obviously there are many of us hungering for this deeper dialogue about where this journey is taking all of us. I am so honored to have this time with my son as my most important work for these few precious years. We are equipping our kids with the tools to surpass us in understanding these things, and that's a truth I can understand.

 

Thanks for all these great posts to read.

 

Ugh, this is how I am feeling as well. I am struggling a bit with post-modern blinders and feel stunted.

 

I remember talking with a psychologist, friend of the family, in my teen-angst years. I mentioned that I wanted to learn as much as I could, gain as much knowledge as possible, so I could never be taken advantage of and would have the upper-hand. He looked at me and said, "Think of knowledge as a huge Redwood and wisdom as a pyramid. Ask yourself which one you would rather be during the storms of life."

 

It was pivotal moment for me as a teen. It gave me direction...purpose. It allowed me to pursue something huge, beautiful, mysterious. At the same time it released me from a very myopic view towards self-preservation.

 

I have never been able to find another key quite lack that, to inspire my mothering and homeschooling journey. This discussion on "virtue" and "wisdom" reminds a bit of that conversation with the psychologist. If only my brain was as quick as it was back then! :tongue_smilie: I still feel a little lost, but it is a hopeful lost. :D

[Bang!Zoom!]

Sheesh...I feel dumb:blushing: I have been listening to the other talks by CiRCE and hadn't seen this one. But, then I realized it has been linked to already.

 

Thanks so much! My little guys are in bed so I am going to listen to this now. You are so kind! Thanks!

 

Oh man, I am **SO** excited for you! Nothing like the first time...lol, come back, tell us what sets you afire! There is treasure in that talk. Treasure.

 

Edit: (speechless)

 

Look who's in this picture here. :svengo: and the caption message as well...lol

 

http://angelicum.net/great-books-program/

Edited March 21, 2012 by one*mom
stunnifacation

[LivingHope]

Proverbs 4:5-13 (KJV)

5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. 6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. 7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. 8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. 9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee. 10 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. 11 I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths. 12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble. 13 Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life.

[delaney]

Ok I am confused. I looked at this site and this is the GOOD books list for K. Really? The Fairies books are over 300 pages! Find me a Kindergarten boy who will sit for that because mine sure won't. He might sit for Wind in the Willows. This whole book thing appeals to me because I love to read but the time involved in reading aloud to the younger kids makes me shudder! How in the world do you do it???

[Mommyfaithe]

Andrew, thanks so much for joining the discussion!

It is a blessing to have this community, I wonder where we would be without a way to talk through this together. I know where *I* would be (collecting more curriculum, and worrying)

I came into this so lost, but through reading and praying and thinking, I have come to realize this is all just what I somehow knew once upon a time, and buried underneath my quest for the perfect curriculum tools to meet the goals established by the world. Though outwardly I would say I was rejecting their standards, in the back of my mind was always fear and anxiety that I would let my kids down if I didn't provide them with a 'standard' education like their counterparts in the schools. I wanted to improve on it, but I wasn't thinking drastically enough! But lately, more and more over the past year, I could not get away from this feeling that I needed to throw off all this 'education' stuff, and just live beautifully with my children....to coexist without nagging, pestering, hounding, snapping. My witness before them was not pretty....my energy was all on 'getting through our schoolwork'. And I was growing more and more uncomfortable with this. I was toying with the idea of throwing out all the schoolwork, and spending Lent praying together, reading the lives of the saints and those who have trod the path, enjoying nature, cooking, loving. I felt like I could EITHER do school well OR live life well.

The lightbulb for me here is that living life well IS school. That doesn't mean we won't do any work or lessons or that we become unschoolers, but that our focus is on wisdom, virtue, truth, beauty. In each other, in what we say and do, in what we read and write, in everything. If we approach lessons with that in mind, we become more human....it is holistic. We are not warring with ourselves, divided and broken. There is a greater purpose and unity in our efforts.

I feel this tremendous burden has lifted, this impossible task seems possible again. In fact, it seems like it is EXACTLY WHAT I (and we as a family) NEED to draw near to our Lord, and to approach what He means for us to be. I am beyond excited...I am ecstatic.

 

Wonderful post!

 

I have long been an advocate of "holistic homeschooling.". Making life and living, learning and exploring, finding beauty and the extraordinary in our daily life has been my goal in my homeschool since day one. However, I had to also find a way to get those lessons into my kids. It is like sneaking in veggies:D

 

I stopped sneaking:D. I have come to a place where I am just honest....you have to learn xyz because all educated people know xyz, and God wants you to use the excellent brain he gave you. It is stewardship of your body and brain. It doesn't matter so much WHAT curricula I use, it is what I, as their tutor and mentor bring to it. If I am short tempered and hurried, they are short-tempered and careless. If I am in check boxing mode, they do not see the worth of their studies. If I am crabby...they are, well....let's not discuss it:glare:

 

Anyway, I am off to read the entirety of this post as I am up WAY before my kiddoes today.

 

Thanks for posting.

[Mommyfaithe]

Ok I am confused. I looked at this site and this is the GOOD books list for K. Really? The Fairies books are over 300 pages! Find me a Kindergarten boy who will sit for that because mine sure won't. He might sit for Wind in the Willows. This whole book thing appeals to me because I love to read but the time involved in reading aloud to the younger kids makes me shudder! How in the world do you do it???

 

Mine would sit for that....and have....at bedtime:D

 

Choice...do you want to listen or go to sleep??

 

We have read all sorts of books....and ALL of AO 1&2 at bedtime over the course of 1st and 2nd grade.

 

~~

[delaney]

Mine would sit for that....and have....at bedtime:D

 

Choice...do you want to listen or go to sleep??

 

We have read all sorts of books....and ALL of AO 1&2 at bedtime over the course of 1st and 2nd grade.

 

~~

Okaaaayyy! I will defer to my more wise friends and give it a try!:001_smile: Perhaps the little monster will surprise me!:tongue_smilie:

[lorisuewho]

So a practical tip I would offer is that when you prepare each lesson, you focus your attention on the idea you want your child to understand. Then identify the skills they'll need to practice in order to see the idea. Then identify the facts or data they'll need to know in order to see the idea.

 

However, at first this will be time consuming, so only do it for one class the first week. The first time you do anything it takes a lot longer, so don't worry about how long it takes. You'll get quicker and quicker as you better understand how to do it.

 

But when you do it, you'll find that your teaching orders itself to what matters most: truth.

 

 

I deeply appreciate your sharing this idea above and the notebook idea.

 

As a teacher, as a mother, as a servant to Christ, it all comes down to one word for me: intentional.

 

The curriculum choice, although important, is the tool. Some tools are better than others. However, I we use those tools are come down to how intentional we are. Do we know what skills and virtues we want our children to aquire? (I think this is where the notebook idea really comes into play). If we answer yes, than every moment of life itself is a moment to focus our vision, turn our attention, and direct our children.

 

I just need to be more intentional. The days can be chaotic, and often I am just going from one task to the next. But in the quietude of my soul, is where I find not just peace, but direction from the Lord on where I need to be focussed. Then my instruction can be focussed, and the thousand moments of chaos can even find some focus.

 

This thread has inspired me to keep it simple with intention.

[sewingmama]

Ok I am confused. I looked at this site and this is the GOOD books list for K. Really? The Fairies books are over 300 pages! Find me a Kindergarten boy who will sit for that because mine sure won't. He might sit for Wind in the Willows. This whole book thing appeals to me because I love to read but the time involved in reading aloud to the younger kids makes me shudder! How in the world do you do it???

 

 

Don't feel bad - I have three kids who will sit still for endless read alouds and none of them would be able to sit through or enjoy those either in K -I can't imagine trying with a wiggle worm K'r :001_huh:

 

Mine wouldn't even sit for some of the 3yo list - I'm reading the Peter Rabbit series now and none of them are liking it or will sit for it yet I can pull out any non-fiction book of any length and they won't move a muscle till I've read every word. I'm having a hard time getting my kids interested in the classics. It seems they will listen forever to anything I read aloud so long as it isn't a classic :glare:

[Mrs. A]

Ok I am confused. I looked at this site and this is the GOOD books list for K. Really? The Fairies books are over 300 pages! Find me a Kindergarten boy who will sit for that because mine sure won't. He might sit for Wind in the Willows. This whole book thing appeals to me because I love to read but the time involved in reading aloud to the younger kids makes me shudder! How in the world do you do it???

 

It is possible, but if your Ker is not there yet don't stress about it. Just start with shorter books that will hold his attention and work up to the longer stuff from there. The book that got my DS hooked when he was almost 4 was Roald Dahl's "The Giraffe and the Pelly and Me". After that we really took off and haven't stopped since. He is now almost 6 and will sit for a good hour (sometimes longer) and just listen. But it was a gradual process. Take it slow and enjoy the ride. :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

AGG is Anne of Green Gables. Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a partial list of what we have studied to accompany the bk. (it is partial b/c I have thought of titles since I posted that I didn't include.) That approach has been perfect. I cannot think of anything I would do differently this yr w/the exception if I had started thinking this through earlier in the yr I would have had her read Oliver Twist vs. simply watching it.

 

The how.....for me it is going to depend on the age and the child. For example, for my youngest 2, I bought the My Book House series and I am just going to read to them. I'm still thinking through how to approach my rising 5th grader. My rising 8th grader is going to go through LLfLOTR (and we'll read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Song of Roland, Norse mythology, and all the other wonderful references in the units.) but right now my mind is like a tornado and I am going to have to wait for my thoughts to start to settle before I can really have any clear vision of where I am going. Right now parts are clear and parts are utter chaos.)

 

Like the AGG study, I have done others during the last couple of yrs that have been equal in value. We spent last yr on the Chronicles of Narnia w/ my then 3rd and 6th graders. Another study I did that had the same sort of impact is one that I did w/my high schoolers. I created a study around the movie Inception. We got the script and watched the movie along with it multiple times. They also read The Allegory of the Cave from Plato's Republic, a book on philosophy called Labyrinth of Reason, a book on mythology about Ariadne, the minotaur, and the labryinth (in case you haven't seen the movie, it is basically a dream labyrinth and the architect's name is Ariadne.), Through the Looking Glass, Flatland, and Farhenheit 451. We spent a lot of time discussing perception, how works of literature impact other works (and even other media), allusions (that are missed if you aren't well-educated/well-read), etc. What I love about the AGG study and the Inception study is that they have been thought-provoking for my kids. They dwell in the literature making connections, etc.

 

I'm sure none of that makes any sense and I really don't have the mental alertness right now to figure out how to articulate it more clearly. Sorry.

 

I remember reading about your plans for the Inception study this time last year. Sounds like it was stunning.

 

I'm glad you qualified the statement about not reading historical lit. Some of our favorite reads have been because they were a historical fiction book, linked to something we were studying.

 

I'm thinking of Johnny Tremain and Carry On, Mister Bowditch and Guns for General Washington. Though Guns for General Washington is an example of enormous character and grit in a figure who woundn't have necessarily impressed you (he was pretty overweight and had a lot of book learning but wasn't an experienced fighter). Carry On, Mister Bowditch is a similar character sketch, and one that is dear to me as a former naval officer. I spent many a boring watch thumbing his Practical Navigator.

 

But when we get to Johnny Tremain, the sense of what you're saying springs forth. My older kids heard it a few years back. But I let time get away from me this year and so we never got past the first half dozen chapters. By that time, we'd marched along to post Revolution in our studies and I let it fall by the wayside. This is a good reminder that it is a lovely book that I want my youngest to know. It bears reading, even if it doesn't directly tie to the War of 1812 or to the causes of the Civil War.

 

And you're totally right that there have been some books my kids have breezed through that only made it onto the schedule because a certain era or place needed a tie in. I love integrating history and literature. But I need to be wary that the lit selections are worthy of our time. And I need to recall that a good book in the right season can be right because of the book and the child, not what is on the history schedule.

[Knittinfarmgirl]

I am indebted to each of you who has taken the time to post. It's like a veil has been lifted, and I have begun to see things so differently now. I have a vision! I am excited that it is early spring, and I have months to learn, read, and experience...but I think I will start tomorrow, a whole new approach that embodies all I have been hoping for, wanting, and didn't even know what I was looking for. :-)

I kept saying to myself, and to my husband, I think I need to throw out 'school' and just learn to live peacefully and beautifully with my children, live a life of prayer in action.

LIGHTBULB MOMENT!

I do want our lives to be service to the Lord, turning to Him, lingering on the lovely. It's all coming together, and it has nothing to do with curriculum...

What a relief!

 

:iagree: I have been struggling with dissatisfaction for some time. I had such a feeling that I needed to do something different. I'd been pondering changes, knowing something needed improvement. Actually making some moves considering our literature. I am so thankful to have clicked on this thread. So much wisdom and guidance to think about.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Lol, I am so ridiculously inept at this whole thing. In all honesty, I truly feel that NOW, after 9 years of doing this thing called homeschooling, I could possibly manage to do a decent job of it. Now that I've been a parent for 21 years, I'm finally to the point where I could be a good mom. :001_smile:

 

In truth, this is so that MY kids can grow up and start where I've left off and not have to reinvent the wheel like I've had to.

 

 

 

Absolutely. I've been hoping you'd post over here. :001_smile:

 

My mother kept all of my own children's books, and though they were a hodge podge of not very good books, I realized that I REMEMBERED Them. Those pictures were like walking into the most familiar room you'd ever been in-your grandmother's kitchen, what have you. I *knew* those pictures, I knew those books-AND she didn't read them to me that often.

 

That's when I realized how powerful children's books were. And I started culling my shelves. I started buying beautiful books, and borrowing beautiful books (in story and art), I scour used books stores and library sales. I wish I had learned this when my kids were small, I really wish I had given my 21 year old that inheritance. What I'm doing now is reading them to all of my schoolers. Even the 12 year old. And I've often caught him sitting behind the couch reading them on his own.

 

That realization was the beginning of my shift.

 

This was just the boost I needed to clear out the books on my youngest's shelves. He has a shelf full of The Littles, Jigsaw Jones, etc. They were great tools when we lived overseas and I was trying to grow readers without an English library.

 

my youngest has moved past that level and doesn't have an affinity for them anyway. I may have to bribe him with the promise of a couple new good/great books, but I think my PBS box is about to get much fuller.

[angela in ohio]

Mine would sit for that....and have....at bedtime:D

 

That's similar to the way I get my dc to practice their instruments longer. I usually ask them to do some sort of chore for me when they are done. My little guy will practice for over an hour if the chore is onerous enough. :lol:

[justamouse]

 

But when you do it, you'll find that your teaching orders itself to what matters most: truth.

 

/QUOTE]

 

If this thread ever dies out, I think I shall cry.

 

I had an "uh oh" moment reading the above line of Andrew's. I am such a product of relativism and postmodernism that I pretty much limit what I see as truth to very few things, mostly related to God. I just learned tonight that I really need to think on this, not just for my sake, but for my ds.

 

Andrew also said something several pages back in this thread: "The trouble with conventional education is that it is oriented toward the wrong goals. It is about power in one form or another. Classical education subordinates power to the quest for virtue, especially wisdom."

That's exactly why I majored in political science in college because I was fascinated by who had power in our culture and who didn't. And do we realize what power we have by stepping out of that paradigm? Wow, this seems like such new territory.

 

I want to be able to help our son see more about the truth of things than I think I do...so this thread is like a balm right now. Obviously there are many of us hungering for this deeper dialogue about where this journey is taking all of us. I am so honored to have this time with my son as my most important work for these few precious years. We are equipping our kids with the tools to surpass us in understanding these things, and that's a truth I can understand.

 

Thanks for all these great posts to read.

 

Me too, me too, me too. And I've been a Christian all my life, but it still snuck in there because everything is drenched in post modern thought. We say we want to keep our kids from being influenced by the wrong things before they're ready to deal with them- pull them out to homeschool them-then we proceed to bring it all into the house under the boughs of home education.

 

I think if anything, the past few months have been my own awakening to HOW post modern my thinking was-and still is- I'm sure you don't root it out in a few months. :001_smile:

 

Ok I am confused. I looked at this site and this is the GOOD books list for K. Really? The Fairies books are over 300 pages! Find me a Kindergarten boy who will sit for that because mine sure won't. He might sit for Wind in the Willows. This whole book thing appeals to me because I love to read but the time involved in reading aloud to the younger kids makes me shudder! How in the world do you do it???

 

A little at a time. It doesn't happen over night, it happens page by page. One page, then the next week two. My 12 yo didn't become the reader he was overnight! He HATED reading at nine. But I became Mean Mommy and said you will DO this and tough luck, that's the way it is, you need to READ. Now my youngers, who I read to all the time, will sit for VERY long periods and play quietly while I read (I didn't read to the 12 yo as much). Just because they're playing with something quietly doesn't mean they're not listening. Have a quiet basket of toys that ONLY gets played with when you read.

 

Don't doubt the quiet play while reading. I had to bump my 9 yo up a grade in math when he was in first grade because he had listened to his sister's lessons and KNEW everything. And he did nothing but play beside them.

 

It is possible, but if your Ker is not there yet don't stress about it. Just start with shorter books that will hold his attention and work up to the longer stuff from there. The book that got my DS hooked when he was almost 4 was Roald Dahl's "The Giraffe and the Pelly and Me". After that we really took off and haven't stopped since. He is now almost 6 and will sit for a good hour (sometimes longer) and just listen. But it was a gradual process. Take it slow and enjoy the ride. :)

:iagree: McClusky's Make Way for Ducklings, Stand Back said the Elephant, I'm Going to Sneeze, Mother Goose, Nursery Rhymes, Henny Penny, the Bremen Town Musicians, all those good children's books-that's how they start sitting still. After all that is when you start the Fairy Books (which are all free on kindle).

 

 

This was just the boost I needed to clear out the books on my youngest's shelves. He has a shelf full of The Littles, Jigsaw Jones, etc. They were great tools when we lived overseas and I was trying to grow readers without an English library.

 

my youngest has moved past that level and doesn't have an affinity for them anyway. I may have to bribe him with the promise of a couple new good/great books, but I think my PBS box is about to get much fuller.

 

:grouphug:

[Andrew Kern]

I have to thank you, but with a bit of a bemused smile, for liking that talk on analytical teaching. I remember being extremely disappointed with it after I gave it, so I tried to listen to it yesterday. I must say, the high point is when I read the quotation from Burke. So far as I could tell, it went rapidly downhill from there.

 

So I thank you for the comforting realization that our Lord still uses things we do even when we do them rather poorly. Somehow the truth itself can overcome our delivery of it.

 

I think we can all find comfort in that as teachers, right?:001_smile:

 

Shanez - me..poly sci background also :handshake: We should talk about Harold Lasswell sometime (grin)

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I offer you a couple of small detours (evil laugh) - try these names/theorist stuff on Google:

 

1. Albert Nock

2. Prussian Education

 

If you get really spun out on them and how it fits into all this, I'm willing to talk about it...there's probably a couple more of us in this tank also.

 

The reason reading the direct opposite of this which we are discussing & why it's important is that it helps you to even further clarify and affirm your course and plans.

 

Might leave you sleepless now and then, but there's supreme value in the addage that logic and analytically thinking fears nothing and lets all points of view in.

 

Somedays, I feel like I could get up and recite every word spoken in Mr. Kern's talk (Analytical Learning) - but at the moment I'm on overload (which is common these days) and can't pull the direct quote from my head.

 

Go ahead, score me at C- today on this....I just wanted to throw this down because in my experience, this is a valuable skill..that is to say, study both sides of the coin and the thoughts you find.

 

I want to say it's like buffing a diamond or something.

 

If anyone wants to talk about the decent drapery issue, I love that part also! :lol:

 

Moral imagination as a concept and tool - oh boy, now is that a feast of thoughts.

[Andrew Kern]

Hi Delaney,

 

Just read one fairy tale at a time and only read the ones you want to read. No need to read every one of them!

 

I might add that if they ask you to read the same one over and over, do it! It's healing.

 

Enjoy the reads and drop the weights!

 

ajk

 

Ok I am confused. I looked at this site and this is the GOOD books list for K. Really? The Fairies books are over 300 pages! Find me a Kindergarten boy who will sit for that because mine sure won't. He might sit for Wind in the Willows. This whole book thing appeals to me because I love to read but the time involved in reading aloud to the younger kids makes me shudder! How in the world do you do it???

[Jayne J]

[quote name=

....

:iagree: McClusky's Make Way for Ducklings' date=' Stand Back said the Elephant, I'm Going to Sneeze, Mother Goose, Nursery Rhymes, Henny Penny, the Bremen Town Musicians, all those good children's books-that's how they start sitting still. After all that is when you start the Fairy Books (which are all free on kindle).

 

 

:grouphug:[/quote]

 

Elaborately illustrated fairy tale picture books help. Many of them use the same stories as are in the Lang fairy books and the pictures hold attention while you read. Eventually you can transition to text only, but mine love to look at the pictures and will sit still to do so. Also, although not quite the same as having mama read, Story Nory has really well done versions of many fairy tales available to download free. The language is not dumbed down at all, and we spend many hours listening to them as we drive.

[Connections]

Christian thoughts to follow- feel free to skip if you are so inclined.

 

I think part of why I have floundered so often these past few years of homeschooling is because I have not understood the big picture. As others have said, although I hold core beliefs that are very sacred to me and are centered in the true, the good, the beautiful and the wise, I have struggled with living these beliefs in a world that is chasing other prizes.

 

I also have been taken in by the modern educational philosophies of unschooling and child-directed learning. It has left me completely confused many times.

 

It is finally coming together for me that we all have a duty- every minute of every day we are bound by that duty. We are all called to know, love and serve God. As far as education goes, it is our duty to FIND the good, the beautiful, the wise and the true. And once we find it, to apply it. To grow in virtue.

 

As parent-teachers, it is our duty to help reveal those things, and our students are under a duty to seek and discover them. I believe in my heart that this will result in great joy and lead to (in fact, be based upon) peace and harmony. I have lived it in the past (on and off) and I have experienced that joy, that peace. It is NOT doing nothing. It is NOT strewing great resources and hoping our children will grab them and learn. It is NOT letting each child follow his own will. It is seeking His will. It is traveling (and learning) as a family. It is cheerfully accepting this duty we all share- and finding great joy in the process. In fact, it is the PROCESS that matters. The journey only ends at our last breath here on earth. And I know where I want all of us to be when that journey ends!

 

Now to remind myself of that often enough to live it consistently.

 

Only with the grace of God...

[justamouse]

Elaborately illustrated fairy tale picture books help. Many of them use the same stories as are in the Lang fairy books and the pictures hold attention while you read. Eventually you can transition to text only, but mine love to look at the pictures and will sit still to do so. Also, although not quite the same as having mama read, Story Nory has really well done versions of many fairy tales available to download free. The language is not dumbed down at all, and we spend many hours listening to them as we drive.

 

Absolutely.

Edited March 21, 2012 by justamouse