S/O about Mayim Bialik; Not 'forcing manners' on children?

[AvasMom]

Your post wasn't very clear. I couldn't even figure out how to address it.

 

I disagree that modelling is manipulation. Every action that you take is modelling behavior to your kids, whether you intend it or not.

 

Ok I feel better now. Glad it wasn't just me. lol! Manipulation is a negative term so her using it threw me as to what exactly her premise is.

[AdventureMoms]

That instead of asking/telling your kids to say please, thank you, you are trying to manipulate them into doing it.

 

What don't you understand? :confused:

 

So is everything we model actually manipulation? That makes no sense to me. Most people don't directly teach their children to speak, yet the kids learn because the parents speak, and model how to speak. Does that mean they are manipulating their child into learning language? I also don't directly teach my kids to use a spoon, yet all three seem to be able to. They see me using a spoon and figure it out. To my mind, modeling is the natural form of learning for young children. They learn most everything from watching others do it. Manners are included in this, for most kids.

 

Of course, I would teach a child any of these things more directly if necessary, but I hardly think it is manipulative to model correct behavior to an infant or child...

[Haiku]

But, this is the difference between AP and TCS. The first act of an AP parent would be to remove their child from the situation. Not saying you are conflating the two, but some people clearly are.

 

That's true, but I must admit that I have encountered many "gentle disciplining" parents who seem to have the idea that everything their child does is a learning experience that must be capitalized upon through connecting with their children and guiding them to the appropriate course of action, which ime experience can easily translate into the kid continuing to behave inappropriately and negatively impacting those around them while the parent tries to process the situation. Imo, that's a very "me-centered" way of dealing with things: "What matters here is what my kid learns from this experience and how he feels about it."

 

I, on the other hand, have no problem telling my kids to "Knock it off!" and having them learn the lesson that inappropriate behavior won't be tolerated because it won't be. I don't think that my kids have to be intrinsically motivated to be good all the time. I know I'm not. Sometimes I do the right thing because I know the external consequences will be negative if I don't, not because I particularly care atm about being kind/responsible/mature/what-have-you. I think there is room for kids to learn that lesson, too.

 

I find gentle discipline and TCS to be too "me-centric."

 

Tara

[Mrs Mungo]

Tara, I know people like that too. But, in my experience, it is not the *typical* form of AP or gentle discipline. TCS, maybe.

[Joanne]

I, on the other hand, have no problem telling my kids to "Knock it off!" and having them learn the lesson that inappropriate behavior won't be tolerated because it won't be. I don't think that my kids have to be intrinsically motivated to be good all the time. I know I'm not. Sometimes I do the right thing because I know the external consequences will be negative if I don't, not because I particularly care atm about being kind/responsible/mature/what-have-you. I think there is room for kids to learn that lesson, too.

 

I find gentle discipline and TCS to be too "me-centric."

 

Tara

 

I am perfectly comfortable telling kids to "knock it off". Indeed, I am perfectly comfortable telling them "this situation is a 3 on the scale of important, and your 8 reaction is over the top and rude." I *teach* gentle discipline. ;) I do have some encounters with the tender, sweet, passive types who would never dream of saying "knock it off." I also have interactions with the "theory types" who, if not TCS, lean towards limited coercion as a theory of parenting.

 

"Gentle" discipline is a bit of a misnomer. Alternative to traditional punitive parenting styles attracts a significant percentage of moms who, for many varied reasons, can't get comfortable with limits.

 

Nonetheless, I'd like to encourage you to not lump TCS and Gentle Discipline together, and know that there are many "gentle discipline" moms who are not all smoozy, permissive with permeable boundaries.

[LibraryLover]

Tara, I know people like that too. But, in my experience, it is not the *typical* form of AP or gentle discipline. TCS, maybe.

 

 

I can't stand the soometimes inane yammering that goes on and on in TCS discussions. I don't know anyone in real life who would, for instance, wait 2 hours in the freezing cold for a toddler to 'decide' he's ready to climb into their carseat, finally. It's meta discusssion and irks me no end. "Yes, I would let my 5 year old watch porn if he asked, although I can't see why he would ask. But if he did, I would." Blah blah blah.

 

I don't see GD or AP as being the same at all. It's sort of like John Holt's 'unschooling' , and the sometimes insanity of Radical Unschooling, where you let a kid play video games for 20 hours, while bringing him finger foods so he can continue playing without needing to use utensils.

 

It's perfectly fine, imo, depending on your family's culture/sense of humor/communication style etc., to say 'My toes are going numb. It's getting dark. You all better get in this car *right* now before I scream my head off and make a scene." Or something like that. ;):D If it's an overtired toddler crying outside the car, having no idea what he wants, it's too much for a child to be in charge of himself. A child needs the adult to take care and take charge. The parent makes the decision: scoop up gently, buckle him in, hand the child a soft blanket, put on some soothing music and *go*. It's cruel to do otherwise, imo.

Edited March 9, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Joanne]

And yes, I know TCSers don't use the words "negotiate" or "compromise," but ime, it's semantics and in practice leads to giving in to children because they are children, the poor dears.

 

Tara

 

"Mutual" or "common preference" were the words used when I was on the (evil) list. That was a creepy experience, I tell ya.

[mommymilkies]

Tara, I know people like that too. But, in my experience, it is not the *typical* form of AP or gentle discipline. TCS, maybe.

:iagree: I get annoyed by people claiming everything is manipulation. So what? If me teaching my kids to walk, talk, and be civilized is manipulative, then I am all for it. AND I am AP. :)

[LibraryLover]

"Mutual" or "common preference" were the words used when I was on the (evil) list. That was a creepy experience, I tell ya.

 

 

And guess what I saw over and over? The most demanding child in a family determined the 'Common preference." The more easy-going child in the family got the shaft every time, mostly because they don't want to deal with the incessant 'negotiating', or are just not *that* intensely invested, even if they do have a 'preference'. Mostly the mother got the shaft, because it's pretty impossible to find a 'common preference' with a crying, exhausted child. That was a giant creep factor for me.

Edited March 9, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Lady Florida.]

it's too much for a child to be in charge of himself. A child needs the adult to take care and take charge. The parent makes the decision It's cruel to do otherwise, imo.

 

I know I made a lot of snips to the above, but it reminds me of something I read years ago. It said, "I'm a mammal, not a reptile. I don't just lay my eggs and leave." The point was that we teach and care for our young. We stop them from doing things that are harmful and/or dangerous. We teach them how to do things, and how to do what is accepted in our society. There is nothing wrong with, or inherently manipulative about actively *being* a parent. While we have different ideas about just how to teach, simply expecting a child to raise himself is naive at best. It also irks me that in some circles unschooling, AP, and GD have become synonymous with unparenting.

 

Don't even get me started on TCS.

[Rivka]

Mostly the mother got the shaft, because it's pretty impossible to find a 'common preference' with a crying, exhausted child. That was a giant creep factor for me.

 

:iagree:

 

It's one thing to let a child have considerable freedom in the things that only affect that child, but quite another thing to set up a dynamic in which Mom is constantly bending over backwards and following orders.

[NicAnn]

Your post wasn't very clear. I couldn't even figure out how to address it.

 

I disagree that modelling is manipulation. Every action that you take is modelling behavior to your kids, whether you intend it or not.

 

Yes, sorry I'm not sure how to address it either...

 

In a way yes, I'm trying to "force my will". Though I see nothing forceful in my approach. I have a few choices- I can raise respectful kids or disrespectful kids. I can do it forcefully or not. I'm choosing modeling and a constant pattern of respect to get the results I want. Maybe I can't get past the negative connotation of the word "manipulate" and that's why I can't form a clear answer.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Wabi sabi,

 

May I try to explain? We don't worry about things like your example; but in direct conversation (meeting someone on the street, discipline circumstaces, the kingdom hall, etc) the kids know to say yes and no to adults, not yeah or nope. They are also to speak up as it is disrespectful to mumble.

[kathymuggle]

Some kids do fine with modelling and some need to be explicitly taught. Whatever works!

 

I do think modelling is more important. You cannot explicitly teach without modelling or you look like a hypocrit (which kids can smell a mile away).

 

I think there is way more to manners than please and thank you.

[AvasMom]

:iagree: I get annoyed by people claiming everything is manipulation. So what? If me teaching my kids to walk, talk, and be civilized is manipulative, then I am all for it. AND I am AP. :)

 

:iagree:

[Haiku]

You understand that people who say those things are as insincere as you are, so therefore you never trust the words anyway.

 

I think that's over-reaching. I teach my kids to say thank you, as my parents taught me. I don't think I have ever thought, "Wow, that sure wasn't a sincere thank you," unless it was really, really obvious the person was not being sincere.

 

When someone says thank you, I appreciate it.

 

Tara

[Pamela H in Texas]

It is important to note that gentle discipline does NOT mean that one doesn't have standards. In fact, having appropriate standards can aid one in being able to use gentler discipline. And gentle discipline most certainly can allow people to have higher standards that children are capable of living up to.

 

I think too many people call their parenting something that sounds "better" like saying permissive parenting is gentle or saying harsh parenting is strict when the euphemism is just not even true. I have seen plenty of harsh parents and none have been strict. And I haven't seen permissive parents being gentle either. Most people I see are permissive to a good degree and then become harsh.

 

*I* find it easier to be strict because I am fairly gentle. I find it A LOT easier to be gentle because I am strict.

[LibraryLover]

 

*I* find it easier to be strict because I am fairly gentle. I find it A LOT easier to be gentle because I am strict.

 

 

I think most children benefit from clarity, routine, clear expectations, and daily redundancy. ;) . If a child knows and understands there are certain appropriate expectations, they can relax. They don't have to be in a constant panic or what-if mode. Lots of kids act out because they are confused. They don't know what to expect- they *can't* figure out the rules. It's a lot of work for a kid to make it up as he goes along. It's confusing to wake up each day not knowing what is going to happen. Too much power can be overwhelming to small children. They need us to guide them, and to have appropriate expectations. Sometimes they even need us to save them from themselves.

Edited March 9, 2012 by LibraryLover

[swellmomma]

I'd consider myself one of those gentle discipline moms. I do tell my kids to knock it off from time to time though. I do discipline (that's not the same as letting my kid do whatever he wants).

 

I bristle at the whole constantly telling my kids to say thank you. I encourage them to say thank you. I try to encourage them before we are in the situation if possible. One reason it turns me off is that my mother once told me to say thank you when I was 17 years old (before she gave me a chance to do so). I was a very kind and considerate kid who always said thank you. I know it was because she just couldn't turn off the whole "mom" thing, but I'll never forget how humiliated she made me feel. She didn't give me a chance. I want to teach my kids, but I do want to give them, in part, a chance to learn it somewhat on their own (even if that means someone tells them they are being rude...sometimes it's effective to hear that from someone else other than mom). So that's my viewpoint on that particular issue.

 

Off my soap box...;)

 

Heck I am 34 and still have that arguement with my mom. She actually still tries to essentially give me a script to follow when others are coming over. irks me to no end. I give my kids guidelines especially my 2 boys with social skills deficiencies. FOr example my boys would rather ignore anyone coming to a gathering hide in a different room. So I will let them know ahead of time they must say hello to the person and then they can be excused to be alone elsewhere. However beyond that I do not script them, my mom will phone me up ahead of time with her script, she will not give me time to thank someone without interjecting and saying thank you with that pointed look at me etc. I am not a rude person, I think manners are incrediably important and I can say that my mom constantly doing that (and it is humiliating, and it causes others to still view me as a child- as evidenced by the aunts that will join my sister for coffee etc(mom never does that to her) but will look past me to talk with others as if I am one of the kids playing around) has damaged our relationship just as much as other things have.

 

I try to find a balance between teaching manners, cueing the boys and not controlling their interactions kwim

[sassenach]

:iagree: I get annoyed by people claiming everything is manipulation. So what? If me teaching my kids to walk, talk, and be civilized is manipulative, then I am all for it. AND I am AP. :)

 

No kidding. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[sassenach]

Well I'll call my parenting "groping in the dark" because that is what it often feels like. It's not like I have experience. I do the best I can.

 

GD parenting. You should start a list serve for that. It could be the next big thing.

[PiCO]

After reading the other thread about Mayim, I googled her. I discovered that she's a TodayMoms blogger (as in, of the Today Show). I read her blog entry, and have a question about the paragraph about gentle discipline:

 

... we do not force manners on our children (“Say thank you!†and “Say please!†have never escaped my lips).

 

When I first read that, I thought it was silly. But thinking back, I never did that either. I think children learn best by example. Dh & I both used please and thank you with the kids from birth, and I think they were about 4th & 5th on their list of first words.

[swellmomma]

No kidding. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

:lol:

[rieshy]

As an older mom I truly believe it's all about relationship.

 

I've watched very strict "punitive" parents raise great, healthy kids and I've watched "permissive" parents do the same. The quotation marks are because the definitions are in the eyes of the beholder.

 

Love goes a long way.

 

Truth is I stay far and wide from any parenting technique that comes with initials. Except maybe GD. I definitely grope in the dark.

[swellmomma]

Well I'll call my parenting "groping in the dark" because that is what it often feels like. It's not like I have experience. I do the best I can.

 

 

Love it! THis is my parenting.

[LibraryLover]

I've been reading a lot of her entires, and I really like Mayim. She sounds like a lot of women I've known. She has a plan, she is proactive. She respects her kids' development. She is not flighty RU.

[PeacefulChaos]

:iagree: All this says to me is Mayim has a certain kind of kid if that is working out for her.

Anyway - some kids just pick up social conventions through modeling. Some need explicit instruction, role play, or "forcing". And even though she has a PhD in neuroscience, I'd probably take quite a bit more stock in her thoughts if she had older kids. I know I've definitely "matured" in terms of how I think of parenting. I have friends with kids all over the place in terms of personalities and quirks and it's definitely not a one size fits all approach IMHO.

This.

science-based PhD. That in and of itself doesn't lend as much weight to this argument (for me), as does the input of someone who has been in the trenches for a fair amount of time to have seen a few things. I found the input from selected posters to be valuable, and I think that between one person's academic background and another's anecdotal experiences ... the rest of us can mesh together a web of advice and input directly relevant to our own kids/lives/parenting philosophies/et cetera.

 

I really think it's more about the kid than the parenting style. I happened to luck into malleable kids who didn't need any real force to toe the family/cultural line as far as manners and social acceptablility go.

and This.

 

There is no "must" when it comes to ways to raise one's children. The idea that there's a recipe for good manners is ridiculous. Different children learn in different ways, and social mores are no exception.

Oh, and this. :D

I don't do the sir or ma'am bit here at all, it would seem very strange for them to say it, unless you are in a customer service type job, or police/military it would seem out of place in our society here

Interesting. I guess it's pretty common here, we have our kids say yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir, etc. I think it's very polite, even if I'm on the phone with, say, the doctor's office, to be answering their questions with a 'yes ma'am' or 'no ma'am'. So I don't think it's relegated just for customer service jobs (though, granted, most people do hold one of those at some point in their lives anyway) or police/military. But, again, that could just be regional - though I'm not a southerner, DH is, and we have the same view on it.

I've told my kids to say Thank you and stuff. I guess. I still prompt the boys at birthday parties and stuff, when they are prone to get caught up in playing with their friends instead of thanking them for gifts. I think it's important. DD, a lot of times now she'll say it with gifts and stuff but she still doesn't remember to say it if someone compliments her dress (or her hair. she gets constant hair compliments.) so I'll often be like 'Say Thank you!' or just 'Thank you!' (though it feels weird, because I have absolutely nothing to do with her hair - it feels really weird to say thanks for a compliment that wasn't directed at me!) but it's really directed just as much at the other person as her, so she hears me saying it.

I also 'force' apologies. I've found, though, that a lot of times if they really aren't sorry, they won't say it, no matter what. So it kind of works itself out. :)

Oh, and I'm not AP. Not in any way, shape, or form. :lol: Just in case that wasn't obvious. I don't even know what TCS is... :lol:

[LucyStoner]

I have one kid who says please, thank you naturally and is very polite. I have another who (in part due to Autism, in part to being stubborn) just did not have what we showed both kids click. We had to do more than prompt him to reach a point where he will most often say those things without prompting but still sometimes needs a reminder. My brother was very smug about it, because his girls are like my younger son. I really agree that it is more about the kids personality than the parenting technique.

 

I don't read many parenting books and won't read Mayim's but like a pp said she is not advocating abuse or violence. I am sure some what she says will workfor some parents and more to the point, some kids.

[Audrey]

:iagree:Yes, you teach them by showing them. If one doesn't use "thank you" and "please" very often, then one shouldn't expect or "force" one's dc to say these things either.

 

Manners are best taught by modeling the behavior, IMO.

 

 

It's been a while, but I think this is how we taught ds manners. I don't ever recall prompting him to say please and thank you, though. We say it to each other often. He picked it up pretty early (I think) and there hasn't really been much need for correction/instruction/prompting. He is a very polite and well-mannered child, in my completely biased opinion. :D Seriously, though, other people comment on his good manners often enough that I think it's not just my opinion.

 

FWIW, I do cringe a bit when I hear a child say please or thank you after having been prompted (or especially if scolded) by a parent to do so. I dislike insincere pleases and thank yous, and that smacks of insincerity to me. It is very possible for children to speak in a sincerely polite tone when making a request without saying please or thank you. I would much rather hear that than hear a coerced thank you or please.

[Audrey]

I don't do the sir or ma'am bit here at all, it would seem very strange for them to say it, unless you are in a customer service type job, or police/military it would seem out of place in our society here

 

 

I think this may be a Canadian cultural thing. No one here says ma'am or sir either unless they are in the military addressing another military person, or if they are addressing police, or talking about a knight.

 

Where I grew up in the southern US, ma'am and sir were like please and thank you. They were said constantly. Now... my mother and father never made us say ma'am and sir to them, though. In fact, saying ma'am or sir to them would have been taken as being a snotty little brat and would have been soundly punished. I did, however, know a few kids who addressed their parents as ma'am and sir, so I can only assume that is a family preference/requirement, not specifically a regional one.

 

When I moved here, my dh and his family found it very odd whenever I said ma'am or sir to them. My mil once gently took me aside and asked me not to call her ma'am. It made her feel very uncomfortable, as if I were subjecting myself to her (and she had no desire for me to do that). It was a hard habit to break, but now it is no longer second nature for me to use ma'am or sir. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I said either one.

[Audrey]

I have one kid who says please, thank you naturally and is very polite. I have another who (in part due to Autism, in part to being stubborn) just did not have what we showed both kids click. We had to do more than prompt him to reach a point where he will most often say those things without prompting but still sometimes needs a reminder. My brother was very smug about it, because his girls are like my younger son. I really agree that it is more about the kids personality than the parenting technique.

 

I don't read many parenting books and won't read Mayim's but like a pp said she is not advocating abuse or violence. I am sure some what she says will workfor some parents and more to the point, some kids.

 

FWIW, I probably won't read her parenting book either (although I like her). Her children are very young, and mine is approaching teenhood, so it's too late for early childhood development/parenting books, and it wouldn't be a useful exercise for me to re-examine it.

 

OT: why is it so difficult to find good parenting/homeschooling books for the middle school and high school ages?

[LucyStoner]

 

OT: why is it so difficult to find good parenting/homeschooling books for the middle school and high school ages?

 

Mine are younger than yours and I still feel the same way. So much for the baby and tot years, so little for school age and up. I like Mayim but I just don't really spend a lot of time reading about how to parent. I would rather spend the time not spent reading that, on say being with my kids, or reading something that is delightfully and selfishly for my own mental stimulation and/or sheer enjoyment. For me AP has been about what works for my kids and keeps us all connected as a family, not about lists of ideals or anecdotes about other people's children in a book.

[Mrs Mungo]

OT: why is it so difficult to find good parenting/homeschooling books for the middle school and high school ages?

 

Because that is the age people realize that they have no answers. It is easy to have a delightful 5-7 year old and think you should write a book about how wonderful they are. Even great teenagers are like on permanent PMS with their parents.