astrid Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 In the wake of the Ohio tragedy, this is an interesting read: http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/28/why-does-america-lead-the-world-in-school-shootings/?hpt=wo_r1 Another student died this morning. So utterly tragic. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yes, children should not have access to guns. Extremely sad. Also sad to stroll through Big Box store and see video game after video game glorifying killing (usually with guns). My heart aches for the parents who didn't have the chance to say, "goodbye". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Apparently the author is making the incorrect assumption that kids in other countries do not have access to guns. A little more research needs to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yes, it is as easy elsewhere. How about the Army issued rifle leaning up against the bed? Pretty easy for a kid to pick up. The idea that one must lock up everything hazardous to prevent a child from picking it up is rather new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithseed Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I Googled, and just couldn't find anything, but I'd be very interested in knowing the statics of under-age shootings in years gone by. I ask because it seems that here in the US, minor access to guns would be *less* than what it has been in generations before. For example, it would have been normal in the more rural places in the 50s to see guns in the back of pickups at the highschool because the boys were going hunting. Just about every house had at least a shotgun within easy reach. But now, we have gun safes, trigger locks, and the like. :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusksAngel Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I Googled, and just couldn't find anything, but I'd be very interested in knowing the statics of under-age shootings in years gone by. I ask because it seems that here in the US, minor access to guns would be *less* than what it has been in generations before. For example, it would have been normal in the more rural places in the 50s to see guns in the back of pickups at the highschool because the boys were going hunting. Just about every house had at least a shotgun within easy reach. But now, we have gun safes, trigger locks, and the like. :bigear: The other side of that is that most kids grew up with a gun and knew how to use it and what it was to be used for. So I could see a reason for it going up as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostinabook Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I ask because it seems that here in the US, minor access to guns would be *less* than what it has been in generations before. For example, it would have been normal in the more rural places in the 50s to see guns in the back of pickups at the highschool because the boys were going hunting. Just about every house had at least a shotgun within easy reach. But now, we have gun safes, trigger locks, and the like. :iagree: My dad & his brother, my other uncles, my FIL, & all their friends carried guns with them everywhere so they could stop & hunt. They didn't live near one another either. There are several hundred miles between each of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yes, children should not have access to guns. Extremely sad. Also sad to stroll through Big Box store and see video game after video game glorifying killing (usually with guns). My heart aches for the parents who didn't have the chance to say, "goodbye". :iagree: Killing should not be glorified. I even feel bad when I have to stomp Koopas on Mario! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Yes, it is as easy elsewhere. How about the Army issued rifle leaning up against the bed? Pretty easy for a kid to pick up. The idea that one must lock up everything hazardous to prevent a child from picking it up is rather new. :confused: DH has never been issued a gun that was authorized to be brought home. He shoots in the field/at the range, he carries a loaded gun when deployed, etc., but in our home? Never. As a matter of fact, there are a million hoops through which a soldier must jump, not to mention about a million regs, even to have a personal weapon in the home. ETA: And as far as the OP, I personally think the reason we lead the world in school shootings is that we probably have the highest number of disengaged, bullied (and ignored), shoved-to-the-side, assembly-line living and educated, and generally pissed off kids. Edited February 28, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Great article, thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 :confused: DH has never been issued a gun that was authorized to be brought home. He shoots in the field/at the range, he carries a loaded gun when deployed, etc., but in our home? Never. The article in the OP compared the US to Europe, claiming that school shootings happen more in the US because American kids have access to guns and European kids do not. That was an example of a European country where kids DO have easy access to guns, and yet no school shootings. The country in question issues the soldier a rifle at the beginning of basic training and collects it back when he out-processes at the end of his military career. In the meanwhile, it sits at home, ready to bring if the soldier is called up (ie. he's a reservist.) They've reorganized their military a bit, but 10 - 20 years ago EVERY able-bodied man in the country had his rifle at home (now it's just most of them.) Ds managed to pick it up at age 4. I've no doubt a middle schooler could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbecueMom Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 ETA: And as far as the OP, I personally think the reason we lead the world in school shootings is that we probably have the highest number of disengaged, bullied (and ignored), shoved-to-the-side, assembly-line living and educated, and generally pissed off kids. This. Also, I'm sure the American mindset of "everyone is unique" morphs into "me against the world" in the mind of a depressed, angry teenager. It's got to be easier to envision killing your classmates when the focus is on how they are all different (warped translation: wrong) instead of cultivating a collective identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 But aren't the schools gun-free zones? How was there a shooting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Contrast the outcome of this shooting with VA Tech. Someone quickly took the initiative to chase him out of the building so that he could not continue shooting. It could have been far worse... Those students owe much to the bravery of their assistant football coach, who did not hide, take care of himself, and say, "not me! I'm safe!" (similar kudos to the teacher who unlocked his classroom door to drag a wounded student to safety and offer comfort. Whether or not this was a student who later died, how comforting for the student and his parents that he was not left alone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 :confused: I personally think the reason we lead the world in school shootings is that we probably have the highest number of disengaged, bullied (and ignored), shoved-to-the-side, assembly-line living and educated, and generally pissed off kids. This is probably the crux of the matter. Our culture has really abandoned children. I truly believe this. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It wasn't just the 50s. I finished high school in the early 80s. Boys would leave their guns in the rack of their pickup at school during hunting season. We were all taught what the proper object of the hunt was, and it wasn't humans. Touching your daddy or g'mas shotgun would have you eatin' standing up. These kids taking guns to school are of a totally different culture. :iagree: In our culture there is no such thing as humility and meekness. We worship strength and power. We love it when the "good" guy annihilates the "bad" guy. Our entertainment is extremely violent. Torture porn makes for blockbuster movies. We applaud and justify revenge. We glorify self over the good of others. Parents defend their children even when the children are wrong. Children learn they are not held accountable for their actions. We are surrounded by graphic violence on a daily basis (entertainment as well as news media) and yet we are completely detached from the horrors of it. Access to guns is only a small part of the problem I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Personally, I think the US has so many shootings due to its culture of extremes. We glorify unthinking emotionalism, and denigrate intellectualism. Emotion trumps reason. Also, in keeping with the "extremist" values, it's become quite normal for Americans to demonize other Americans over differing values and opinions. When children grow up seeing adults belittle, and dehumanize each other in media, in churches, in schools, in family discussions, you raise children who lack empathy. Mix a lack of empathy with unfettered, irrational emotion and you get a deadly combination. It wouldn't matter if they took all the guns away tomorrow. The heart of the problem is a dysfunctional American psyche, and that's not going away anytime soon. Face it, we're a nation of passionate idiots. Is it any wonder when kids follow the natural progression of their training from birth, and turn violent toward others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It is so very much not about the guns themselves. If it was, there would be more shootings in rural areas where there is easier access to guns by young people. It's about disregard for others, broken homes, a culture that encourages bullying, media that glorify violence, and so on. When adults stop worrying about who has more, who is better, who can put down whom, maybe kids will stop creating the environment that breeds this kind of outcast anger. One boy in my junior high school stabbed another (who died.) He came from a bad family situation. He didn't need a gun to make him violent. Luckily, he was only angry at one boy, because he could have caused a lot of injuries and death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 The article in the OP compared the US to Europe, claiming that school shootings happen more in the US because American kids have access to guns and European kids do not. That was an example of a European country where kids DO have easy access to guns, and yet no school shootings. No, actually, it doesn't say that kids in Europe do not have access to guns. Here's the text: Access to guns Access to guns is a significant factor in American school shootings. If kids could not and did not bring guns to school, we wouldn't have Columbine, Virginia Tech or Chardon, Ohio. There have been crimes with knives and bats and fists. But school shootings are gun crimes. Kids with guns kill kids at school. I do not think America is an extremist nation, compared to other nations with bloody histories and despotic leaders. True, we have polarized political speech, and some of that speech is about access to guns. But the reason we have an American school shooting problem that exceeds other nations has to do with access to loaded weapons by kids who should not have that access. I'm not offering a gun control solution. But any serious attempt to prevent school shooting will have to attack the problem by determining who should not be armed, and preventing dangerous boys from bringing guns to school. The views expressed in this article are solely those of Frank Ochberg. For more on the subject of school shootings, Dr. Ochberg recommends reading reports by the U.S. Secret Service and the FBI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Personally, I think the US has so many shootings due to its culture of extremes. We glorify unthinking emotionalism, and denigrate intellectualism. Emotion trumps reason. Also, in keeping with the "extremist" values, it's become quite normal for Americans to demonize other Americans over differing values and opinions. When children grow up seeing adults belittle, and dehumanize each other in media, in churches, in schools, in family discussions, you raise children who lack empathy. Mix a lack of empathy with unfettered, irrational emotion and you get a deadly combination. It wouldn't matter if they took all the guns away tomorrow. The heart of the problem is a dysfunctional American psyche, and that's not going away anytime soon. Face it, we're a nation of passionate idiots. Is it any wonder when kids follow the natural progression of their training from birth, and turn violent toward others? I agree completely. Well said. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Quote: Originally Posted by In The Great White North The article in the OP compared the US to Europe, claiming that school shootings happen more in the US because American kids have access to guns and European kids do not. That was an example of a European country where kids DO have easy access to guns, and yet no school shootings. No, actually, it doesn't say that kids in Europe do not have access to guns. Here's the text: Access to guns Access to guns is a significant factor in American school shootings. If kids could not and did not bring guns to school, we wouldn't have Columbine, Virginia Tech or Chardon, Ohio. There have been crimes with knives and bats and fists. But school shootings are gun crimes. Kids with guns kill kids at school. I do not think America is an extremist nation, compared to other nations with bloody histories and despotic leaders. True, we have polarized political speech, and some of that speech is about access to guns. But the reason we have an American school shooting problem that exceeds other nations has to do with access to loaded weapons by kids who should not have that access. I'm not offering a gun control solution. But any serious attempt to prevent school shooting will have to attack the problem by determining who should not be armed, and preventing dangerous boys from bringing guns to school. The views expressed in this article are solely those of Frank Ochberg. For more on the subject of school shootings, Dr. Ochberg recommends reading reports by the U.S. Secret Service and the FBI. __________________ Then what does the bolded part say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 ETA: And as far as the OP, I personally think the reason we lead the world in school shootings is that we probably have the highest number of disengaged, bullied (and ignored), shoved-to-the-side, assembly-line living and educated, and generally pissed off kids. :iagree: differences are not celebrated, they are barely tolerated in some places. I have never felt the pressure to be like others moreso than in public school. Even when I worked in insurance where our job was to shove people into statistical boxes, people's diversity was acknowledged and welcomed. Textbooks have to be approved by a committee put together by a committee. Peer groups judge in committee and without your vote if you are the outcast. How many of us as adults have broken friendships because we were judged by what we do? The whole system wants to create Student 1.0, who looks and acts just like the student across the country. My kid is quirky and confident. I have little doubt he would have been teased in school because he doesn't conform to other's standards. I believe a major falldown on education is not teaching others to embrace the individuality of another. You know how when you mix too many colors together everything looks like a washed out beige? That's what has happened to some of these kids. They are left to be beige. No one wants to feel muddy beige for 4 or 7 years. If they don't have someone telling them that school ISN'T the real world, that they really are hot pink or fire red, I can see how they'd get lost. I know this all just sounds weird, it might be the Benadryl, but it ticks me off and saddens me to see kids thinking school is REAL life and that there is no escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2scouts Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 My heart aches for the parents who didn't have the chance to say, "goodbye". I just received an email from the director of my son's basketball league. One of the students killed was a relative of a league official and they said the mother is "catatonic" from grief.:crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I agree that it is our culture that is profoundly mentally ill and becoming more dangerous every day. Welcome to America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Personally, I think the US has so many shootings due to its culture of extremes. We glorify unthinking emotionalism, and denigrate intellectualism. Emotion trumps reason. Also, in keeping with the "extremist" values, it's become quite normal for Americans to demonize other Americans over differing values and opinions. When children grow up seeing adults belittle, and dehumanize each other in media, in churches, in schools, in family discussions, you raise children who lack empathy. Mix a lack of empathy with unfettered, irrational emotion and you get a deadly combination. It wouldn't matter if they took all the guns away tomorrow. The heart of the problem is a dysfunctional American psyche, and that's not going away anytime soon. Face it, we're a nation of passionate idiots. Is it any wonder when kids follow the natural progression of their training from birth, and turn violent toward others? This! Absolutely this! Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Thank you for saying this. I've thought it for years. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I'm sure they do. But is access so easy elsewhere? I won't say nowhere is it as easy, but it's easy here. A 12 year old nearby shot his friend because they played with the dad's gun found loaded in his sock drawer. The gun owner isn't even responsible for that. I don't get it. Someone can scale your fence and fall in your swimming pool and you could be held responsible. Someone could fall on your steps and you could be held responsible. Your child shoots his friend because you don't take care of your gun, you aren't held responsible. In fact the dad would be allowed to leave it loaded on his kitchen table unattended and not be held responsible. :001_huh: wow, here in Florida an adult IS liable if a child uses their gun. Period. And I'm glad. It isn't hard to lock up a gun. It just isn't. We have numerous guns in my house. All are secured properly. None could be used by anyone other than us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momofkhm Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Just a small point in relation to the Va Tech shootings - both of those people were adults who could legally buy guns for themselves. Not children who got ahold of their parents' gun somehow. The one in 2007 was 23 yo. The one in 2011 was 22. I do agree that guns should be kept in a way that children cannot get to them. I also think that children need to be taught to respect guns, that they are not for aiming at, let alone shooting people. I think it's a tragedy that any child is killed at school. School should be a safe place to be. I think college campuses should likewise be safe. It's just that the author lumped the Va Tech shooting with high school shootings. Different ballgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Then what does the bolded part say? It says that American kids' access to guns EXCEEDS that of kids in other nations. It does not say that kids in other nations have no access. You said this: "The article in the OP compared the US to Europe, claiming that school shootings happen more in the US because American kids have access to guns and European kids do not." I pointed out that the article does not, in fact, say that European kids do not have access to guns. And really, not sure what your intent is. Your tone makes it seem as though you're attempting to make me look stupid or ridicule my understanding of the article. In light of the discussion about how we treat each other in this nation and what sort of model we provide for our children, that kind of makes me sad. Just my opinion/interpretation though. astrid Edited February 28, 2012 by astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Oh how awful. It's just such a tragedy all the way around. I cannot even wrap my head around those poor parents' grief. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4everHis Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It wasn't just the 50s. I finished high school in the early 80s. Boys would leave their guns in the rack of their pickup at school during hunting season. We were all taught what the proper object of the hunt was, and it wasn't humans. Touching your daddy or g'mas shotgun would have you eatin' standing up. These kids taking guns to school are of a totally different culture. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenL Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Personally, I think the US has so many shootings due to its culture of extremes. We glorify unthinking emotionalism, and denigrate intellectualism. Emotion trumps reason. Also, in keeping with the "extremist" values, it's become quite normal for Americans to demonize other Americans over differing values and opinions. When children grow up seeing adults belittle, and dehumanize each other in media, in churches, in schools, in family discussions, you raise children who lack empathy. Mix a lack of empathy with unfettered, irrational emotion and you get a deadly combination. It wouldn't matter if they took all the guns away tomorrow. The heart of the problem is a dysfunctional American psyche, and that's not going away anytime soon. Face it, we're a nation of passionate idiots. Is it any wonder when kids follow the natural progression of their training from birth, and turn violent toward others? :iagree: Well stated. I recently read Columbine by Dave Cullen. It was a very interesting read and it looked deeply into the pysches of the two killers and their plan for that day. There are many factors in place when it comes to how/why these tragedies occurred. The reasons above are some of the main ones. As a country, we are drastically failing our children, and I believe it begins in the home for many of these kids. However, the innate psyche of the child must be considered as well, and we can't just blame it solely on gun access. The leader of the Columbine killing (Eric Klebold) was well liked by peers, came across as the perfect student in many ways, and he was extremely intelligent. But, something in him just wasn't right. Couple that with the facets mentioned above, and it gave him freedom to explore his "passions" and disdain for others, and he felt fully entitled in his actions at Columbine. His ability to easily access guns in conjunction to his warped psyche made for a deadly tragedy. The interesting fact that led me to reading the book in the first place is I saw it at Barnes and Noble on a table that featured a local high school's 9th grade Honors English class book list. Take a student like Klebold, put the Columbine book in his hands, and it could prove deadly. After reading it I became concerned as to how it's being implemented in the classroom, especially with 9th graders who run the gamit in their levels of maturity. :001_unsure: Hearing the profile of TJ Lane in Ohio made me think of this since his "goth phase" begain in 9th grade. I'm not saying he read the book and that caused it. I'm saying exposure when a student is still immature can be dangerous. We live in a sad and scary world. Reason #689 why I'm okay with sheltering my children until they are older. Edited February 28, 2012 by jenL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirth Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Contrast the outcome of this shooting with VA Tech. Someone quickly took the initiative to chase him out of the building so that he could not continue shooting. It could have been far worse... Those students owe much to the bravery of their assistant football coach, who did not hide, take care of himself, and say, "not me! I'm safe!" Yes, which is to say, this shooting is a greater comment on cowardice than culture. A shooter starts shooting other people when the shooter is pretty sure the others will not or cannot shoot back. He was chased away by a mean man! Seriously. I remember days of hunting your way to and back from school. If you dared to raise a firearm to anyone, you stood a good chance of getting shot. Everyone knew this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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