Tranquility7 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I’m in a discussion with a family member. While he isn't anti-hsing, he is definitely of a different educational philosophy than we are. He subscribes to the progressive idea of "it is the idea behind the writing that matters, not weather the writing is done correctly". We are more believers in teaching phonics, spelling, grammar, etc. and using copywork and dictation to teach a child how to write properly. Using these tools, DS (5) is becoming a wonderful little reader and writer. However, when DS sent a perfectly written letter to this family member, the family member responded to me by forwarding a note he had received from another child (7 yrs old) that had several surprising spelling errors as well as capitalization and punctuation errors. He praised her mom for allowing her DD to “freely express herself without correctionâ€. He told me later that I should be more free with DS and just let him express himself and not worry whether it is right or not, that it is the idea behind the writing that matters. I told him they *are* DS's ideas (he wpoke, I wrote it out, he copied it), but he still thinks I am being too controlling and should let DS just express himself. I enjoy having discussions with this family member, but I don't have the time to write up a good response explaining why we do things the way we do. However, I would really like to send him a link to a good article about our methodology. Any suggestions for such an article? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/why-do-copywork-and-dictation/ http://www.welltrainedmind.com/a-suggestion-for-teaching-elementary-writing/ http://www.welltrainedmind.com/what-about-journaling-or-my-child-hates-his-journal/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemongoose Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I do not have an article, but I can tell you that I went through PS when these "progressive" ideas were used. Now I am embarrassed daily by my grammar and spelling errors. I can write whole novels, but who would want to read them? I have learned more grammar and spelling in the last year while teaching my DD than I ever learned while in school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I find it hilarious that his input contained a misspelled word. Maybe he is defensive because, well, he has to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Every person has an opinion. I'd leave it and move on. We can't be wasting our time arguing with folks about our choices. We aren't going to get everyone to agree. "Great little story. Thanks for sharing." The end. Full stop. Edited February 23, 2012 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It is impossible to clearly express an idea (especially in writing) without proper punctuation and grammar. This becomes even more true when a student is attempting to communicate even more complex ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Every person has an opinion. I'd leave it and move on. We can't be wasting our time arguing with folks about our choices. We aren't going to get everyone to agree. I'd leave it and move. "Great little story. Thanks for sharing." The end. Full stop. :iagree: This is a good idea. Your relative is welcome to his ideas. But he has no say in how you educate your child. My own personal flavor of response would be that a person who is well educated regarding spelling, grammar and composition has all the tools necessary to create any style of writing, and make it great. A person who has not learned these things does not even have the option to do it correctly, and all the creativity in the world won't fix that. But I would not argue the point. I would make this my closing statement and then refuse further discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquility7 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 I find it hilarious that his input contained a misspelled word. Maybe he is defensive because, well, he has to be! Sorry if I was unclear - it was not his input that contained spelling, etc. errors. It was a note he *forwarded* to me that had been written by a 7 yr old. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sorry if I was unclear - it was not his input that contained spelling, etc. errors. It was a note he *forwarded* to me that had been written by a 7 yr old. :001_smile: I think Carol was responding to this quote, "it is the idea behind the writing that matters, not weather the writing is done correctly." Weather versus whether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Every person has an opinion. I'd leave it and move on. We can't be wasting our time arguing with folks about our choices. We aren't going to get everyone to agree. I'd leave it and move. "Great little story. Thanks for sharing." The end. Full stop. :iagree: Sometimes it just isn't worth the energy. I think it is strange that a parent would allow a child to continue making errors and not correct them. A child can still express himself and use proper grammar and punctuation. They aren't mutually exclusive. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquility7 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Every person has an opinion. I'd leave it and move on. We can't be wasting our time arguing with folks about our choices. We aren't going to get everyone to agree. I'd leave it and move. "Great little story. Thanks for sharing." The end. Full stop. Sorry if I was unclear. I enjoy having discussions with this family member. We differ on a majority of topics, but he is very well-read and a great debater (far, far better than I, even though I always think I'm right! :lol:), and our discussions always leave me with things to think about. I don't mind talking with him about this. I simply don't have the time to write it all out myself, so I'm looking for a good article I can send him instead, as fodder for further discussion. I don't view discussing my position with him as an automatic waste of time, or trying to get him to agree with me. It would be nice if he did, but it is also more fun (and sharpening) to banter with someone who disagrees :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Every person has an opinion. I'd leave it and move on. We can't be wasting our time arguing with folks about our choices. We aren't going to get everyone to agree. I'd leave it and move. "Great little story. Thanks for sharing." The end. Full stop. I agree. You may feel strongly that given proper instruction in grammar and spelling, your child will be able to clearly express original ideas clearly. This other person clearly feels strongly the other way. *shrug* You're unlikely to change his mind. And...HOW RUDE. "Thanks for the nice letter" is an appropriate response to receiving a letter from a child. "Look at this really great letter written by another child that's really great because it's completely different from your child's letter" isn't. :001_huh: I think you're very gracious to be willing to address this from a standpoint of educational philosophy. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquility7 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think Carol was responding to this quote, "it is the idea behind the writing that matters, not weather the writing is done correctly." Weather versus whether. :lol:That is hysterical. That error is due to MY mistype as I intermittently wrote the original post while simultaneously making lunch and managing the kiddos. So that misspelling is mine, not his!:blushing: The quote was from our phone discussion last night, not an email I copied and pasted from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquility7 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/why-do-copywork-and-dictation/ http://www.welltrainedmind.com/a-suggestion-for-teaching-elementary-writing/ http://www.welltrainedmind.com/what-about-journaling-or-my-child-hates-his-journal/ Thanks for these great recommendations! I should have thought to look here first. :blushing: I will probably send them along, though I'd also love to find one with commentary contrasting it with the progressive "free expression" approach (not sure what that is even called?). Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sorry if I was unclear. I enjoy having discussions with this family member. We differ on a majority of topics, but he is very well-read and a great debater (far, far better than I, even though I always think I'm right! :lol:), and our discussions always leave me with things to think about. I don't mind talking with him about this. I simply don't have the time to write it all out myself, so I'm looking for a good article I can send him instead, as fodder for further discussion. I don't view discussing my position with him as an automatic waste of time, or trying to get him to agree with me. It would be nice if he did, but it is also more fun (and sharpening) to banter with someone who disagrees :001_smile: Ah, I see. :) A friendly discussion. Enjoy the links Mrs Mungo posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is nonresponsive to the original question, but I am rather aghast that he forwarded you a note he received from another child for the purposes of comparison. It seems rather a rotten thing to do to the other 7yo, even if he meant to show that her work was superior. I mean, presumably the little girl thought she was writing a note, not entering a contest. I suppose it's a good heads-up to you and your DS, though, about the nature of communication with this person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoGal Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I used to think the same way he does. I was a first grade teacher and encouraged my students to just write and not worry about spelling or anything. I thought this would make them more free to worry about the content of their writing rather than the isolated skills of spelling/punctuation/grammar. BUT what I came to realize is that not being able to spell really slowed the kids down. They weren't comfortable and free to write their thoughts because they couldn't get the words down. I'm noticing now with my son that as his spelling, punctuation, capitalization is easier, he is free to write more and to write what he really thinks (not just what he can spell). I think the way you did it is great! The way kids express themselves in spoken language is much more natural and "free" than if they had to write it themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sorry if I was unclear. I enjoy having discussions with this family member. We differ on a majority of topics, but he is very well-read and a great debater (far, far better than I, even though I always think I'm right! :lol:), and our discussions always leave me with things to think about. I don't mind talking with him about this. I simply don't have the time to write it all out myself, so I'm looking for a good article I can send him instead, as fodder for further discussion. I don't view discussing my position with him as an automatic waste of time, or trying to get him to agree with me. It would be nice if he did, but it is also more fun (and sharpening) to banter with someone who disagrees :001_smile: That makes sense. I agree that the articles posted by Mrs. Mungo are excellent. I'd also suggest SWB's podcasts on writing. They repeat some of the ideas in the articles, but I think she also briefly addresses the issue of practicing writing incorrectly. I think of it as similar to learning to play piano without addressing technique from the beginning. The child can learn sloppy habits that are difficult to correct later, whereas a child instructed in proper technique as a beginner develops good habits from the start and is able to focus time and energy on expression and further learning instead of on correcting bad habits. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessieC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think I agree with him, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My simple response to teachers who bring this philosophy to me is: Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Why have them spend time practicing something incorrectly? :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 send him a link to the book "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves." That should explain why it matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I found this article: Pros and Cons of Invented Spelling in the Elementary Classroom. It provides both sides of the argument and concludes with a suggestion to combine the methods since no one method will reach all students. However, after reading through the article, I would say the evidence is overwhelming to use the traditional method and skip invented spelling. I've never liked invented spelling. I think it sets bad habits. The article voices a concern I have. How can a child learn to recognize his own mistakes when he has no reference to what is correct? It also seems like it would be a blow to a child's self-esteem to find out one day in a later grade that he has been spelling certain words incorrectly for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I used to more-or-less agree with that idea but I've since read too much that comes from that mindset. Having great ideas is fine but if the person reading your work doesn't understand the idea or is being frustrated by poor grammar, spelling, etc. then the idea can't be communicated. This is true of anything. A great idea for a house design comes to naught if you don't have the proper skills and materials to build it. That holds true for art especially. You have a picture in your head you want to draw but haven't got an understanding of perspective or the practiced hands to put that picture properly on paper. You have an idea of a sculpture but don't know how to properly shape the material to make that idea a reality. It's not that the skills are more important then expressing the idea, it's that the idea can't be successfully and satisfyingly expressed without the skill. Sure, little kids who don't know better will be pleased with their output and it's a good thing to give them some free reign there but there will come a point when the ideas will get more complicated and they'll start to realize that they don't have the resources to communicate. They will get frustrated. Giving them writing skills and making sure they understand the importance of those skills will only empower them. Never mind that ideas almost never spring forth from nothing. Most early creative writing that kids do is highly derivative. Copywork is an excellent way to fuel that creative writing if you choose good pieces for the child to copy. ETA: The short version of all this is that writing is only half about getting your ideas out. The other half is about having others understand your ideas. If you don't learn how to write, spell, etcd. then you'll miss the second bit. Edited February 24, 2012 by WishboneDawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The intro to "Writing with Ease" contains a clear explanation: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/media/downloads/pdfsamples/wwesample.pdf (first 3 pages especially) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I think a bit of both styles work. My son was chock full of stories , so I told him to write them all. I didn't worry about the spelling or grammar then, because I wanted him to develop a love of writing. We gradually got to that without any problems. I am definitely NOT a fan of copy-work. We tried it and it was a big drag on both of us. :iagree: The philosophy behind the OP's friend has been around since the 70's & 80's. When I first began to teach in the classroom, it was mandated we taught via this methodology. It works. I've used it in classrooms from 1st grade to 3rd grade. Also incorporated into this system is a program like Writer's Workshop where the student works on a theme/letter/project from brainstorming to final draft. The teacher is the editor and meets with the student to help produce a finished piece of writing that is in final (perfect) draft form. Many of the earlier drafts (1st draft) have the invented spelling issues. It was a busy morning in the lower grades doing this for a block of 2-3 hours -- just one teacher trying to get 25 students to write. But it is not for every child, however. Those students who struggle with dyslexia or ESL tend to progress better in kinesthetic/more structured/phonemic style programs like The Writing Road to Reading as opposed to McCracken Spelling thru Phonics (which is more whole language than phonics). After seeing the academic pendulum swing back and forth, I'm not leaning to one "team" as every child learns differently. The OP is using what works for her and her friend believes his way is the right method. The only issue I have in this whole matter is the tit-for-tat rude comments from the friend. That is simply petty. I suggest for the OP to smile and ignore him if he continues to do such nonsense. Whatever. :confused: Edited February 24, 2012 by tex-mex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeganW Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Why does this person's input matter? There is NO SENSE in wasting your time on this. He has his opinion, and you have yours. You have researched and made the decision about what is right for you. You don't need to defend yourself! In fact, by discussing it with him, you give him the impression that his opinion matters and that he has a voice in the decision. After you have made the decision, you can state it if you want, but don't discuss it further! Make your statement, thank him for caring, and firmly change the subject. Refuse to go back. "Thanks for your opinion. So, how's your kitchen remodel coming?" "Yes, I did receive your letter and your comments. Thanks. So, I heard your sweet daughter scored a goal at her last game - you must have been so proud!" "Yes, I do understand your point of view, and have taken it into consideration. We have decided how we will be educating our child. Thanks for caring, though! So, y'all doing anything exciting this weekend?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Both are important, of course, but if an idea can't be expressed in a way that is clear, concise, and organized, you're going to lose your audience. As the writer gets older, if it isn't grammatically correct and spelled correctly, the idea won't hold as much weight. If the writer is a professional, a poorly written essay (even if the idea is great) will not get the attention the idea might deserve. Of course the other is true, too. :) But, I also believe that if you are disciplined in the actual writing process, then you will become more disciplined in the thinking process as well. On a slightly different note, my husband is in the process of re-wiring his brain in order to talk again, following a stroke. He'll often have the idea but can't put it into words. Reading well-structured sentences out loud has helped in the re-wiring process almost more than anything else. It not only re-builds the framework required for communication, but it seems to be refining his thinking as well. Just reading words out loud doesn't do it. Something about the structured sentence is necessary. I'm not sure if this supports the idea of writing correctly or not, but maybe...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Every person has an opinion. I'd leave it and move on. We can't be wasting our time arguing with folks about our choices. We aren't going to get everyone to agree. "Great little story. Thanks for sharing." The end. Full stop. :iagree: I'm thinking this family member needs some bean dip, not articles. What's it to him how you teach your child? Tell him to butt out. lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Granted, nobody may die instantly because of bad writing Except the poor little kitten's. :D Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessieC Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Can you imagine this line of thinking with other things (it's the idea behind it rather than it being correct)? The surgeon screwed up a surgery, but that's ok because he had the right idea behind it (just not the right technique). :lol: . You could take a lot of analogies and apply them to why letting children make mistakes in their writing is a sound idea. A child learning to ride a bike should ride perfectly right away, and never wobble or fall down? Or learning to draw should make perfect lines right away? Or learning an instrument should sound like an expert from the beginning? I just do not agree that a child learning to write should have perfect spelling and grammar at all times. Learning to write well is a gradual process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 A child learning to ride a bike should ride perfectly right away, and never wobble or fall down? This is why many parents hold onto the back of the bike, to catch the child before they come crashing to the ground. :tongue_smilie: It's not as though those of us who correct grammar and spelling expect perfectly turned out college-level essays from a first grader, any more than we expect them to hop on the bike and do a wheelie, or sketch a still life that looks real, or sit down at the piano and play Rachmaninov. I do expect, from schoolwork, correct grammar and punctuation. That means I help with spelling, expect a capital at the beginning and an end mark at the end, just as ds7's piano teacher expects him to tuck his thumb and sweep his fingers across the keys when he plays Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. :) Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 You could take a lot of analogies and apply them to why letting children make mistakes in their writing is a sound idea. A child learning to ride a bike should ride perfectly right away, and never wobble or fall down? Or learning to draw should make perfect lines right away? Or learning an instrument should sound like an expert from the beginning? I just do not agree that a child learning to write should have perfect spelling and grammar at all times. Learning to write well is a gradual process. Nobody is contesting that idea. People are contesting the idea that it should not be corrected. It would be absurd for a music teacher to proclaim that they will not be correcting a child's mistakes because it would cramp the child's creativity and/or love for the violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 This is nonresponsive to the original question, but I am rather aghast that he forwarded you a note he received from another child for the purposes of comparison. It seems rather a rotten thing to do to the other 7yo, even if he meant to show that her work was superior. I mean, presumably the little girl thought she was writing a note, not entering a contest. I suppose it's a good heads-up to you and your DS, though, about the nature of communication with this person. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I’m in a discussion with a family member. While he isn't anti-hsing, he is definitely of a different educational philosophy than we are. He subscribes to the progressive idea of "it is the idea behind the writing that matters, not weather the writing is done correctly". We are more believers in teaching phonics, spelling, grammar, etc. and using copywork and dictation to teach a child how to write properly. Using these tools, DS (5) is becoming a wonderful little reader and writer. However, when DS sent a perfectly written letter to this family member, the family member responded to me by forwarding a note he had received from another child (7 yrs old) that had several surprising spelling errors as well as capitalization and punctuation errors. He praised her mom for allowing her DD to “freely express herself without correctionâ€. He told me later that I should be more free with DS and just let him express himself and not worry whether it is right or not, that it is the idea behind the writing that matters. I told him they *are* DS's ideas (he wpoke, I wrote it out, he copied it), but he still thinks I am being too controlling and should let DS just express himself. I enjoy having discussions with this family member, but I don't have the time to write up a good response explaining why we do things the way we do. However, I would really like to send him a link to a good article about our methodology. Any suggestions for such an article? For the same reason that when you are learning to play an instrument you want to have instruction on what notes are, how they are formed on that instrument, how to read the notation for music for that instrument and then to have practice with leveled music with feedback from an instructor. What sort of cacophonies would we get if we just handed a kid an instrument and said, "Go play whatever sounds good." Most of what came out wouldn't sound good at all. The young musicians would frustrated and many would give up, all for want of clear instruction and intentional practice. I think the SWB audio about teaching writing is also very good on this topic. One thing she discusses is that copywork decouples the physical act of writing from the creative act of composing the sentence or paragraph. It trains the student to be able to eventually write what they are saying or thinking but putting it into separate steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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