In the Rain Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I could use some perspective here. If your sensitive dd was the target of "mean girls" in an extracurricular class she loved, would you let her continue to participate? It is not a class she could take anywhere else. She wants to keep attending because she loves the subject and teacher, but she is upset after every class about the other issues. I wonder if enduring poor treatment could lead to long term self esteem issues. Which is worse, giving up something you love because of others, or enduring bullying to do what you love? She is only 10, so it isn't a major life decision. I just can't decide what is best for her long term mental health. :confused: Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Peach Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What exactly is happening? Could you sit in on a class, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Can you talk with the teacher about what is going on? I wish I knew the answer. My dd was also being bullied in a very weird and quiet way in our church nursery. I started staying down there with her and I confronted the bullying head on. But, my dd was only 4 when it started. I don't know what I'd do with a 10 year old. But, she definitely should NOT have to deal with this on an ongoing basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 My first reaction would be to pull her out, and then bend over backwards to try and help her interest along in different ways...an online course, a private tutor, etc. Maybe if I knew more of the story I'd do something different, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 DS12 was being bullied at school last year. Academically it's an excellent school, and he loves that part of it and all the extracurricular activities, but there were some characters in his form who made his life a misery. He knew that if he really couldn't stand it any more he could come and be homeschooled, but he chose to stay. I must say, I'm very proud of him. He endured the bullying, even though he was close to despair at times, and he made the most of all the opportunities the school had to offer. He is very well thought of by the teachers, and slowly he's gaining the respect of many more of his classmates. The experience does not seem to have done him any long term harm, if anything he's tougher than ever. I may be wrong, but I think self-esteem comes from experiences within the family, and self-confidence is strongly influenced by one's sense of mastery and achievement in the world. Within his family he is well loved and has lots of fun and happy times. At school he has learned how rewarding it can be to work hard at something you enjoy. I have myself given up on things I've enjoyed because of difficult characters, and it's left me with a sense of helplessness and frustration; not good for one's self-esteem. I'm so sorry you're having to go through this, and I hope it can be resolved successfully for your daughter. Best wishes Cassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thanks. I pm'ed you guys. I don't want to put too much info on a public forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I have myself given up on things I've enjoyed because of difficult characters, and it's left me with a sense of helplessness and frustration; not good for one's self-esteem. I'm so sorry you're having to go through this, and I hope it can be resolved successfully for your daughter. Best wishes Cassy The part I bolded is what I am afraid of. I don't want dd to feel helpless, and like these girls ran her off from an activity she enjoys. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I was bullied in school and it toyed with my self-esteem for years, like until my 40s. However, my parents didn't know about it (they would have done nothing), and it was school, not an extra activity. I know there are several books referred here, I think one is about Queen Bees? IDK, it might make a difference if this is an activity she loves, she know you are going to deal/are dealing with it, and she feels supported either way. In my case I was bullied about things that I couldn't change, they were part of my DNA. All the standing my ground and trying to earn respect would have done nothing except continue to frustrate me. My gut reaction is to yank her out, as some of those horrid things go to your subconscious. Years later you hear those words in your voice, not remembering they were the jeers of others. But...I would use my gut, and do a lot of talking. Self-esteem is hard to rebuild, but retreating isn't always the best solution either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fairy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think it definitely could lead to her questioning herself ala, "What's wrong with me?" I think it depends on personality type, some people can shrug stuff off, others internalize. I'd get the teacher involved, and give my dd some coping strategies. Can you role play with her, so she has a chance to act out her responses for different situations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think it definitely could lead to her questioning herself ala, "What's wrong with me?" I think it depends on personality type, some people can shrug stuff off, others internalize. I'd get the teacher involved, and give my dd some coping strategies. Can you role play with her, so she has a chance to act out her responses for different situations? :iagree: I think it's a bit dangerous to give kids the idea because someone you don't get along with is in an activity (or job, or gathering, etc), you should be scared off by them. I'd work on coping strategies and definitely talk to the teacher. If these were preschool age kids, I might feel differently about it. FTR, I was super quiet in school and viciously bullied. I think it would have made a world of difference to me just to have a supportive parent teaching me coping skills and reminding me when someone finds the need to bully others, there is something wrong with THEM. Not the target child. With my kids, we play "what if" games wondering why someone might act out in that way and it always leads to the kids feeling pity which completely derails whatever the bully said. My son had a child that was just horrible at a class every week (liked to call my son geek and nerd). It was a class he LOVED and would never have wanted to quit. One week my son told the bully he felt sorry for him because he must not feel very good about himself to talk that way. Honestly, he also threw in he thought bully needed a hug. :tongue_smilie: That child who we still run into has not said anything mean since and actively avoids my son. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I know you don't want to share too many specific details, but I'm wondering if you have discussed the problem with the teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thanks for all of the replies. :001_smile: A few of you mentioned talking to the teacher. I have talked to one teacher who acknowledged it was happening as dd reported, and advised her to stay away from the girls. He said it was them, not her. He said the other girls have always been this way. :confused: We pulled her from that particular class. The big problem is that the main girl who is being mean is the daughter of the woman who oversees the whole program and is the direct supervisor of some of the places it is occurring. The other places it occurs are transition times, when nobody is really in charge. I've read several times on this forum, and in books, that the problem worsens when the parents are involved. In this case, the teacher is also the parent. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) The big problem is that the main girl who is being mean is the daughter of the woman who oversees the whole program and is the direct supervisor of some of the places it is occurring. The other places it occurs are transition times, when nobody is really in charge. I've read several times on this forum, and in books, that the problem worsens when the parents are involved. In this case, the teacher is also the parent. :001_huh: I would speak with Mean Girl's mom. If she is in charge of the whole program and refuses to take action and stop her dd from being a bully, I think your only option would be to pull your dd out of the program. There is a possibility that the mom doesn't know what her little darling is doing, and she may very well be mortified to discover what is happening. Your dd is only 10. I think you need to step in and help her deal with this problem. Edited January 25, 2012 by Catwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would speak with Mean Girl's mom. If she is in charge of the whole program and refuses to take action and stop her dd from being a bully, I think your only option would be to pull your dd out of the program. There is a possibility that the mom doesn't know what her little darling is doing, and she may very well be mortified to discover what is happening. Your dd is only 10. I think you need to step in and help her deal with this problem. I agree. I know you'd run the risk of the girl becoming even meaner, but you could help that out by ensuring your own dd that you will step in to help each and every time, and you could circumvent the probable retorts about her being a "baby who needs Mommy to defend you!" Give a few retorts of her own--"Yeah, my mom cares enough about me to help me with mean girls like you!" kinda thing. Aaand I'd definitely tell the mom of the girl if it continued, and the exact nature of it. If nothing happened, I'd pull my dd. With a few choice words... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't think enduring emotional or physical abuse from ANYONE "builds character". I do not put up with any kind bullying at my school whatsoever. Not even a hint. My rule is this "if you are intentionally unkind to another person in word or deed you are being a bully" and I come down on it hard. Even my kindergarteners recite my playground rule: You can't say "You can't play". Kids can be selfish and cruel and it is our job as adults to teach them not to be... Not to make them endure abuse from others. That bully needs to be dealt with and fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The big problem is that the main girl who is being mean is the daughter of the woman who oversees the whole program and is the direct supervisor of some of the places it is occurring. The other places it occurs are transition times, when nobody is really in charge. I've read several times on this forum, and in books, that the problem worsens when the parents are involved. In this case, the teacher is also the parent. :001_huh: I think that you have to communicate with the main girl's mother. I think you should write her a letter detailing what is happening, when and where it is happening, how it is affecting your daughter, that it has been an ongoing situation which has been witnessed by the teacher, how you hate to pull your daughter out of the program because your daughter loves the program, but this ongoing bullying is impacting her self-esteem and can no longer be tolerated, and that you want to know what steps she is going to take as supervisor to ensure that a stop will be put to this behavior immediately. Be polite but direct, detailed, and firm...put the ball in her court by letting her know that you do expect change/steps to be taken and that you expect a response by asking her specifically what steps she will take to ensure that the bullying will stop etc. Ask her for a meeting to discuss this further. Hopefully she will resolve it to your satisfaction. If she doesn't, find out if there is somebody over her head that you can go to, and if that doesn't work, then I think you might have to consider pulling your daughter out because I WOULD worry about the long term effects of always being bullied like that. I admire that your daughter wants to stick this out though because she enjoys the class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 There are two people over the mom's head. Should I start with the mom or start with one of them? I considered talking to the mom last November or December, but I read some advice that deterred me. I read that most parents would stick up for their kids, and those bullies that were talked to just became sneakier. I'll observe tonight. There was a blow up last week and dd told the girl she wasn't being nice and it wasn't funny. Things should either be better tonight, or much worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendag Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I can't imagine that bullying would be a character building thing for a kid. Period. Sure some kids are able to overcome it, but really, the potential psychological toll taken by those that are bullied is not worth it in my opinion. It sounds like you have a plan. I hope things go well for your daughter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 There are two people over the mom's head. Should I start with the mom or start with one of them? I considered talking to the mom last November or December, but I read some advice that deterred me. I read that most parents would stick up for their kids, and those bullies that were talked to just became sneakier. I'll observe tonight. There was a blow up last week and dd told the girl she wasn't being nice and it wasn't funny. Things should either be better tonight, or much worse. Absolutely start with the mom, and then work your way up the chain of command if necessary. I would speak with the mom at first, but if she cops an attitude, I would restate the conversation in a letter or email to her, being very clear that the situation must be taken seriously, and copying the two higher-ups at the same time. I hope you're able to resolve the situation with the other mom, or that your dd has a much better time with those girls tonight so you don't need to address it. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellers Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I would speak with Mean Girl's mom. If she is in charge of the whole program and refuses to take action and stop her dd from being a bully, I think your only option would be to pull your dd out of the program. There is a possibility that the mom doesn't know what her little darling is doing, and she may very well be mortified to discover what is happening. Your dd is only 10. I think you need to step in and help her deal with this problem. :iagree: I would talk to the person in charge and if they did nothing about the bullying, I would talk to the bully's mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I would start with the mom, and give her a chance to make it right. I would never tolerate my child bullying another child. A lot of moms wouldn't. Maybe she won't either. But don't wait. Send her a letter (I would want it in writing, in detail) right away, and see what happens. But since it could go the other way, too ("Not my princess!"), if she had an attitude or blew you off or didn't resolve the situation, then I'd start going over her head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I wish I could say talking to the teacher and parent helped. I feel like I left dd in way too long. One day she stood up to her bully and then quit the group. She gave up something she loved and was very good at. If she had left sooner her self esteem would have been stronger and we could've found something else for her to do. Waiting until she was a teenager was a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I don't think enduring emotional or physical abuse from ANYONE "builds character". I do not put up with any kind bullying at my school whatsoever. Not even a hint. My rule is this "if you are intentionally unkind to another person in word or deed you are being a bully" and I come down on it hard. Even my kindergarteners recite my playground rule: You can't say "You can't play". Kids can be selfish and cruel and it is our job as adults to teach them not to be... Not to make them endure abuse from others. That bully needs to be dealt with and fast. You have said it. I think you are a great leader to those students!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Kids can be selfish and cruel and it is our job as adults to teach them not to be... Not to make them endure abuse from others. That bully needs to be dealt with and fast. Agree X 100. Bullies need to be called out and trained to be decent, normal little people. Or else they should be the ones to sit out or withdraw from activities. Too bad all of the parents of nices kids don' t band together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I don't think enduring emotional or physical abuse from ANYONE "builds character". I do not put up with any kind bullying at my school whatsoever. Not even a hint. My rule is this "if you are intentionally unkind to another person in word or deed you are being a bully" and I come down on it hard. Even my kindergarteners recite my playground rule: You can't say "You can't play". Kids can be selfish and cruel and it is our job as adults to teach them not to be... Not to make them endure abuse from others. That bully needs to be dealt with and fast. You really need to come and take over the school in my little town. The bullying is terrible. The officials do nothing and the parents of the bullies can't/won't/don't see that anything is wrong with their precious angels. I'm very seriously concerned about a friend of ds's. :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 See Rosalind Wiseman. IMO she has the best approach to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Facing the same thing here. My dd is 10 and she seems to have only mean girls in her class. We have spent many a night in tears. We are also struggling with the correct response. In this case they are her "friends" who also happen to be very rude and call her (and possibly each other) names. This is not how my child was raised and she finds it very upsetting. Don't have any good answers for you, just :grouphug: for your dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Any updates? How did it go tonight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Wow, thanks for all of the responses. You've given me lots to ponder. I'm sad to see so many others have experienced bullying. Why are kids so mean to each other. :confused: Facing the same thing here. My dd is 10 and she seems to have only mean girls in her class. We have spent many a night in tears. We are also struggling with the correct response. In this case they are her "friends" who also happen to be very rude and call her (and possibly each other) names. This is not how my child was raised and she finds it very upsetting. Don't have any good answers for you, just :grouphug: for your dd. Thanks. My dd is also one who fails to see how rudeness can exist in friendship. She comments that the group of girls teases each other all of the time, followed by "just kidding". Any updates? How did it go tonight? Thanks for asking. It was the first night there were no tears. :001_smile: But that is only because the girl and her mom were not there. :lol: I was actually disappointed because I wanted to see for myself what was going on and have a better sense of what to do. I guess it will be at least a week before I have any more information. I'll have to reread this thread next week. I was actually feeling brave tonight. ;) I hate confrontation. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 It is very interesting that things were OK for your dd because the other girl wasn't there. Perhaps the other girls are taking all of their cues from Ringleader Girl, and that is good information for you to have. if the bullying starts again as soon as the Ringleader comes back next week, you will have even more to tell the mom, because she won't be able to pin the blame on any of the other girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 I don't think enduring emotional or physical abuse from ANYONE "builds character". I do not put up with any kind bullying at my school whatsoever. Not even a hint. My rule is this "if you are intentionally unkind to another person in word or deed you are being a bully" and I come down on it hard. Even my kindergarteners recite my playground rule: You can't say "You can't play". Kids can be selfish and cruel and it is our job as adults to teach them not to be... Not to make them endure abuse from others. That bully needs to be dealt with and fast. :iagree: with so much of this. I was shocked when one of dd's teachers acknowledged everything that was happening and then said he couldn't do anything about it. :glare: I wouldn't have allowed behaviors like that when I was a teacher. Just to be clear, I didn't say that staying in class would build her character. Dd's preference is to stay in class because she loves the subject, and doesn't feel she should have to be the one to leave when she is doing nothing wrong. I am questioning whether allowing her to make the decision to stay and be exposed to these girls could cause her long term damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 It is very interesting that things were OK for your dd because the other girl wasn't there. Perhaps the other girls are taking all of their cues from Ringleader Girl, and that is good information for you to have. if the bullying starts again as soon as the Ringleader comes back next week, you will have even more to tell the mom, because she won't be able to pin the blame on any of the other girls. I think all three girls were gone. I'll have to ask dd tomorrow. I know in the past the other girls have been friendly to dd when the main girl wasn't around. That is part of why it is confusing for dd. Even the main girl has been nice to dd on occasion. According to the one teacher, "the girls get along except on days they decide to ignore her". :001_huh: It was the "decide to ignore her part" that bugged me. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I think all three girls were gone. I'll have to ask dd tomorrow. I know in the past the other girls have been friendly to dd when the main girl wasn't around. That is part of why it is confusing for dd. Even the main girl has been nice to dd on occasion. According to the one teacher, "the girls get along except on days they decide to ignore her". :001_huh: It was the "decide to ignore her part" that bugged me. :glare: OK, so basically, if Ringleader Girl is having a bad day, she gets her little friends together and they actively decide to torment or ignore your dd. :glare: I hate to say this, and I hope I'm wrong, but I have known a few kids like that, and they were unhappy kids who wanted to make themselves feel better by belittling another kid. I think it is still worth talking with the mom, but I wouldn't be surprised if the end result is your dd leaving the program. :( In my limited experience with this sort of thing, even if the mom steps up to the plate, the kid is only nice when the mom is around, and goes right back to her old ways the minute no one is looking. That said, I would be sure not to leave without going all the way up the chain of command, if for no other reason than to document what has happened to your dd, so the next kid to be bullied (and there will be one,) might have an easier time getting some justice. Also, the Ringleader's mom needs to be held accountable for her dd's behavior, and to learn that just because she is in change of the program, doesn't give her kid the right to make it open season on any kid she wants to bully. Edited January 26, 2012 by Catwoman Typing on my iPad -- should have said "in charge of the program," above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassy Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I don't think enduring emotional or physical abuse from ANYONE "builds character". I do not put up with any kind bullying at my school whatsoever. Not even a hint. My rule is this "if you are intentionally unkind to another person in word or deed you are being a bully" and I come down on it hard. Even my kindergarteners recite my playground rule: You can't say "You can't play". Kids can be selfish and cruel and it is our job as adults to teach them not to be... Not to make them endure abuse from others. That bully needs to be dealt with and fast. I couldn't agree more. Sadly, adults can't always do much. The 'ringleader' who was making DS12 so miserable was also giving the school quite a hard time, and was/is in trouble on a daily basis. The school were aware what was going on, and did their best, but this boy had no respect for the school, teachers or, it seems, his parents. This is a British 'state school' (ie US version of public school) and it's very difficult to have problem children thrown out. When DS12 eventually thumped his tormentor, we got the strong message from the school that he'd done the right thing, and even the distinct impression that they were rather pleased with him, which quite shocked me at the time. My own instincts at the time were to remove DS12 from the situation; as his mother I wanted more than anything to protect him, for him to be happy, but he chose to stay and endure it. Maybe that element of choice made a big difference, knowing that he didn't have to put up with it if he didn't want to. Whatever the reasons, I believe he made the right decision, I wouldn't say it was "character building", nobody needs to be made so miserable and wretched on a daily basis for week after week, month after month, but he has come out of it stronger, and has learned important coping skills (other than how to split someone's lip :D). Best wishes Cassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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