How would you all handle this situation?

[Nakia]

Anna, my 11 year old, has been a handful for months. I've posted about our trouble before. In a nutshell, she has been hormonal and hateful, and she became violent a few times. The violence was short-lived and has stopped, thank God. We have implemented a lot of changes, including increasing her time at the barn where she rides horses, and things are improving. Her attitude has been a bit better, but she is really grumpy really often. Ugh. From what my friends tell me, it's pretty normal for the age.

 

Anyway, something happened over the course of the last two days that I would like to get your opinions on. Anna hates math, detests it. She is really good at it, working a year ahead, but she thinks it's straight from the devil. :tongue_smilie: Yesterday I gave her an assignment with 15 problems (out of 40ish that the book had), and she got them done pretty quickly. She will not check her work. Ever. Of course, she makes careless mistakes and misses several problems on most days. So, par for the course, she missed 5 problems yesterday. I told her she needed to correct them to which she rolled her eyes. She put it aside and did more school work. About an hour before we needed to leave for horseback riding, I made lunch, and we started getting ready to go. She hadn't done her math corrections, so I told her if it wasn't done by the time we needed to leave, she had to do it on the way or when she got home. Her response was, "ok."

 

I got home late last night (see my tater tot thread), and I honestly didn't even think about Anna's math. This morning, I asked for her math corrections so I could check them, and you guessed it, she didn't do them. I made her correct them this morning, and it literally took her no more than 10 minutes. When I asked why she lied when she said she would do them when she got home, she told me she never agreed to do them last night. :glare: She has never been a child who lies/misleads so I didn't have any reason to doubt she would to them. I know she really wanted to go to horseback riding, but I feel like I was more than fair in giving her options. She made a bad decision.

 

So we have several issues going on: her refusing to check her work (a.k.a. laziness), the lie (and I do consider it a lie), the attitude... I don't know what to do, but I don't think I can let it slide. Is there something I could have handled better? How I should I discipline this?

 

Thanks for any advice.

[Starr]

We check math together and they fix their errors immediately (when things are going well). Don't give up on this or you'll miss a semester of math along the way. :) I don't put up with attitude. If they aren't going to be nice they go to their room until they can be polite. As much as she needs the horse time I wouldn't take her if she's not being nice at home. I've only had to do this once for kids to know I mean it and then I threaten them. The lying is obvious but it means she means she doesn't want to and doesn't want it to be her problem. I've never found asking why they lie to be helpful. I would just tell her she didn't do it and since you can't trust her she'll have to do it with you in the room. The time you put into this now will make things so much easier in a few years. We know you love on her plenty. :grouphug:

[Tammyla]

I would help her never forget for a good long while by checking everything...Nothing motivates a pre-teen like a mom over their shoulder; they'll do just about anything to get you off their back. (I would offer the grace of her forgetting vs. lying in this case. Hormones are hard to deal with at any age, kwim?)

 

Tomato staking works wonders, even with the older crowd who want to be grown up.;)

[Joker]

Was she out late with you? If so, I could see how she could forget since you did.

 

I actually wouldn't have considered it lying because I also have a just turned 12 yr old who is moody and hormonal. A mumbled, "ok" wouldn't have meant a yes. That's just my experience with my pre-teen. I also would have made her do the work before riding.

[Nakia]

We check math together and they fix their errors immediately (when things are going well). Don't give up on this or you'll miss a semester of math along the way. :) I don't put up with attitude. If they aren't going to be nice they go to their room until they can be polite. As much as she needs the horse time I wouldn't take her if she's not being nice at home. I've only had to do this once for kids to know I mean it and then I threaten them. The lying is obvious but it means she means she doesn't want to and doesn't want it to be her problem. I've never found asking why they lie to be helpful. I would just tell her she didn't do it and since you can't trust her she'll have to do it with you in the room. The time you put into this now will make things so much easier in a few years. We know you love on her plenty. :grouphug:

 

Yeah, the "it's not my problem" attitude shows itself daily. I am hesitant to take horseback riding away because it is truly all she wants to do, and her instructor is such a good influence. This parenting business is hard! Thanks for the advice!

 

I would help her never forget for a good long while by checking everything...Nothing motivates a pre-teen like a mom over their shoulder; they'll do just about anything to get you off their back. (I would offer the grace of her forgetting vs. lying in this case. Hormones are hard to deal with at any age, kwim?)

 

Tomato staking works wonders, even with the older crowd who want to be grown up.;)

 

She admitted she didn't forget; she just didn't "agree to do it" so she had an out. ARGH! Thanks for the advice!

[Cassy]

She agreed she would do them when she got back, but then didn't. I wouldn't consider that lying necessarily. Maybe she forgot. Sometimes I tell myself I'll do something later in the day, and only remember after I've gone to bed :tongue_smilie:.

 

I've recently mentioned on another thread that I only have boys, the eldest homeschooling is not quite 11, I imagine 11 yo girls are quite, quite different. I wouldn't make a big deal out of this. The big deal I might have made would have been to threaten that the math needed to done before we went out, or we wouldn't be going out. It would be an easy threat as I'd know he would get it done in order to do something he enjoyed.

 

I remember being a hormonal pre-teen, it's hard, and you need your mom on your side. Maybe I'm soft, but I'd cut her some slack.

 

Best wishes

 

Cassy

[NotAVampireLvr]

(not having btdt) we wouldn't have left the stables until she corrected her work. Clearly it was something that could've been down quickly had she been willing to do it on her own given that it only took her 10 minutes this morning to fix it. I would not have gone with her word on it that she would complete it when she got home... there was a thread yesterday where a month of Latin had slid by because Mom had trusted that her daughter was doing the work.

[bluemongoose]

I do not have an 11 yo, but I do have a DD with attitude. With a bad attitude and work not finished, she would not be going anywhere.

 

I agree that if you truly forgot, she could have as well.

[Mary in VA]

I don't know, and of course you know your daughter, but is it possible she could have fully intended to correct the math problems when she told you and then forgotten? That happens to all of us here, kids and parents alike, and I certainly wouldn't consider that a lie. We all just get caught up in other activities and whatever it was slips our minds. If she doesn't normally do schoolwork in the evening and no one reminded her it could easily be forgotten. You said you asked her why she lied, not why she didn't do them. I find the first question very confrontational and I know I would be very offended if it was assumed I lied instead of inadvertently forgetting something. Just a thought.

 

Mary

 

Oops, saw your follow-up. Well if she says she didn't forget then that's a whole 'nother ball game!

Edited January 20, 2012 by Mary in VA

[Nakia]

Was she out late with you? If so, I could see how she could forget since you did.

 

I actually wouldn't have considered it lying because I also have a just turned 12 yr old who is moody and hormonal. A mumbled, "ok" wouldn't have meant a yes. That's just my experience with my pre-teen. I also would have made her do the work before riding.

 

No, she wasn't out late with me. My dh picked her up from the barn when he got off of work, and they got home around 6:30. I do consider it lying, and she knows it. We honestly had no more time for her to correct her mistakes before we needed to leave. I don't know what else I could have done besides tell her to take it with her (it's a 20 minute drive) or do it when she got home. The instructor was counting on us to be there at the time we had agreed on. I just can't figure out how I could have dealt with it better, but I would like to know.

[Joker]

No, she wasn't out late with me. My dh picked her up from the barn when he got off of work, and they got home around 6:30. I do consider it lying, and she knows it. We honestly had no more time for her to correct her mistakes before we needed to leave. I don't know what else I could have done besides tell her to take it with her (it's a 20 minute drive) or do it when she got home. The instructor was counting on us to be there at the time we had agreed on. I just can't figure out how I could have dealt with it better, but I would like to know.

 

:grouphug: I'd like to know how to deal with them better at this age too. Sometimes I think my dd says and does things just because she knows it will irk me. She's a complete angel to her dad but she saves the real attitude just for me.:glare: A few weeks ago her attitude had me calling my mom and telling her I was sorry and I loved her. She just laughed and said it was payback. I'm ready for this stage to be over (but then I have her younger sister who will probably start the same thing in a year or two).

[QuirkyKapers]

Can you arrive late for horseback riding? If so, I would be tempted to tell her she is going until the items are corrected. Of course, if she fools around, she might miss altogether. I would ask if she wants me to help or not. I don't have kids that age yet, however, for my son if I am not standing over him or near him, he really has trouble focusing. He can take all day to get the assignments done. For my daughter, I can give her pages of work and she gets them done in a timely manner. I recently commented on that to my son and he told me he would like me to help keep him on task. I was really surprised since he seems so independent in many other areas. :grouphug:

[regentrude]

I would

- check math immediately together and fix it right there and then

- NEVER give a 11 y/o the option to postpone work until the evening after activities. My experience is: it either does not get done (forgotten or too tired), or it gets done without the necessary concentration and more mistakes happen.

If you had reminded her to do the corrections I would either have insisted that they happen before she gets to leave for riding, or I would have scheduled them for the first thing on the following morning to avoid rushing. (Neither after riding nor in the care would have been acceptable options for me; math needs to happen in a focused way.)

 

I would not make a big deal out of it. In the future, I would schedule math first thing in the morning, correct right away, fix everything, and move on.

[Cassy]

I just can't figure out how I could have dealt with it better, but I would like to know.

 

I don't think you could have dealt with it any better in the circumstances. Life's messy, sometimes doing our best just doesn't seem adequate, but it's all we can do.

 

She'll know you're upset, and even if that doesn't seem enough just now, I'm sure it will have had an impact.

 

I know you feel you already made it so easy for her, and she just went and pushed her luck, but I'd just let it drop. It's just one bad math day (DS7 has had three of those this week :tongue_smilie:)

 

:grouphug:

 

Cassy

[Cera]

My oldest is younger but we had a similar problem (saying things would get done and blowing them off). I sat her down and explained that since she had shown me that I couldn't trust her to follow through on the things she said she would do she no longer had leeway to choose when to do them (which is a natural consequence). For a while I made her do the things I asked immediately and she has now earned the right to have a little more leeway again. In your case I would tell her that now math will be finished and corrected before going to the barn since you can't trust her to do it after. She'll catch on.

[2squared]

My oldest is younger too, but I have already discovered that school work doesn't happen later unless I'm on top of it. Once we are out of school mode, school is long forgotten as the rest of life rushes at us. If I truly expect it to get done later, then I need to be able to inspect it later.

 

If the corrections didn't happen before you left for activities, then I would have scheduled them first thing the next day in addition to the rest of her usual work.

[catz]

My oldest is younger too, but I have already discovered that school work doesn't happen later unless I'm on top of it. Once we are out of school mode, school is long forgotten as the rest of life rushes at us. If I truly expect it to get done later, then I need to be able to inspect it later.

 

If the corrections didn't happen before you left for activities, then I would have scheduled them first thing the next day in addition to the rest of her usual work.

 

:iagree: I've come to the conclusion that unless I follow up and stay on top of it, it isn't going to happen. I have an 11 year old boy and if I said finish this up tonight and didn't remind him, it would not happen. None of us are at our best that time of day. Most of the time they just need to do it immediately. I've worked it out so that that 95% of the time we leave the house activities for the day, we've finished everything I'd hope to. And the other days, I just drop it until tomorrow. Things like horse back riding can be important too, depending on your child. I consider our activities art, performing arts, phy-ed, social, etc and I don't take being late or missing them lightly.

[justamouse]

I would look at riding as therapy, and never take it away. The option of not riding is off the table, just like stopping Dr visits is off the table.

 

So, after that, you're left with what happened.

 

If I were you, what I most likely would have done was say, Ok, just grab the page and do them in the car on the way. No anger, none needed. I'd correct them while I sat in the car while waiting for her.

 

With what happened? It wouldn't bother me. It'd be the first thing she had to do that morning, and then her regular daily math lesson.

 

I've learned with all of my kids is that there's a window for math, earlier the better (regentrude is right, first thing!). Even with my kids not having a 40 yo brain, they still short out later in the day and at night. My 17yo Dd whizzes through maths before 12, and will admit that it's hard work for her later in the day. So I can totally see your daughter just forgetting and not doing it.

 

Her consequence is built in-she has to finish them up first, and therefore more work is added to her day-just like we all have to do when we put something off.

 

:grouphug: You didn't blow up, loose it, or punish the snot out of her.

Edited January 20, 2012 by justamouse

[Remudamom]

I can give you math advice. They do the problems, you check them and then they correct RIGHT AWAY.

I had a whole passel of math haters.

[Nakia]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate you all weighing in!

 

I would look at riding as therapy, and never take it away. The option of not riding is off the table, just like stopping Dr visits is off the table.

 

So, after that, you're left with what happened.

 

If I were you, what I most likely would have done was say, Ok, just grab the page and do them in the car on the way. No anger, none needed. I'd correct them while I sat in the car while waiting for her.

 

With what happened? It wouldn't bother me. It'd be the first thing she had to do that morning, and then her regular daily math lesson.

 

I've learned with all of my kids is that there's a window for math, earlier the better (regentrude is right, first thing!). Even with my kids not having a 40 yo brain, they still short out later in the day and at night. My 17yo Dd whizzes through maths before 12, and will admit that it's hard work for her later in the day. So I can totally see your daughter just forgetting and not doing it.

 

Her consequence is built in-she has to finish them up first, and therefore more work is added to her day-just like we all have to do when we put something off.

 

:grouphug: You didn't blow up, loose it, or punish the snot out of her.

 

 

LOL, how'd you know what I had in mind? Just kidding. ;)

 

I totally agree about horseback riding. I'd like to say we will never take it away, but I can't say that. Taking it away would be the absolute last resort.

 

I see now that I made a mistake when I let her have the option to do it much later. I should have just told her to bring it with her.

[myfunnybunch]

No, she wasn't out late with me. My dh picked her up from the barn when he got off of work, and they got home around 6:30. I do consider it lying, and she knows it. We honestly had no more time for her to correct her mistakes before we needed to leave. I don't know what else I could have done besides tell her to take it with her (it's a 20 minute drive) or do it when she got home. The instructor was counting on us to be there at the time we had agreed on. I just can't figure out how I could have dealt with it better, but I would like to know.

 

We would have either done it in the car or been late to the lesson.

 

I'd have called the instructor and given her a heads up, or taken the math along and let Anna sit in the car in the parking lot until she was finished.

 

If there was no way either of those would have worked, I'd have made sure dh knew to set her up to do her work as soon as they got home.

 

Expecting an 11 y.o. who's already experiencing some challenges to take responsibility and remember is too much, imo.

 

I understand the idea that you must do as you say, and if you say you'll do something and don't, it can be considered a lie. It can also be considered just plain forgetfulness. It's a little different than being deliberately deceitful. If this is not usual, I'd offer some grace. I forget things like that as an adult, and hormones can make our memories fuzzy.

 

Cat

[Nakia]

I can give you math advice. They do the problems, you check them and then they correct RIGHT AWAY.

I had a whole passel of math haters.

 

Yeah, I shouldn't have let her put it aside. Oh well, you win some, you lose some.

 

Sometimes I wonder how she can hate something that she is so good at. Is that normal?

 

And I wonder how anyone can hate math, lol. I love it!

[Starr]

She could've sat at the barn, looking lovingly at the horse and finished it. :D

[Nakia]

We would have either done it in the car or been late to the lesson.

 

I'd have called the instructor and given her a heads up, or taken the math along and let Anna sit in the car in the parking lot until she was finished.

 

If there was no way either of those would have worked, I'd have made sure dh knew to set her up to do her work as soon as they got home.

 

Expecting an 11 y.o. who's already experiencing some challenges to take responsibility and remember is too much, imo.

 

I understand the idea that you must do as you say, and if you say you'll do something and don't, it can be considered a lie. It can also be considered just plain forgetfulness. It's a little different than being deliberately deceitful. If this is not usual, I'd offer some grace. I forget things like that as an adult, and hormones can make our memories fuzzy.

 

Cat

 

 

I see now that I could have handled it better. I'm glad I posted!

 

Can I ask why you think it's too much for an 11 year old to be responsible and remember what they said they would do? She's been doing it for years. Maybe that's odd. I don't know; this is the first 11 year I've had, lol. My 9 year old is the same way. She is really good about remembering to do what she's supposed to do.

 

In this particular case, Anna admitted she didn't forget. She just didn't want to do it and decided that since she didn't actually say "yes" that she didn't have to do it. I understand forgetting. But that wasn't what happened.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I think you have been given good advice. I'll just add this:

 

I hate it when parents go out looking for curriculum to teach character. IMO, character is taught in so many little moments that we have with them when we are just living life.

 

In that vein I would keep my eyes open for a moment when you or your dh or a friend could have blatantly been obtuse and weren't. A time when their claiming to 'misunderstand' would have been uncomfortable for you or someone close to you. I feel like I'm not explaining this right.

 

you know how sometimes when a kid hits a certain age they become OVERLY LITERAL about every little thing? "Oh, you meant X? Well, you said x!" all cheeky about it. Basically, I would point out how it could have gone down if someone had been obtuse, led someone to believe that they would do something that they had no intention of doing, etc.

 

Hopefully you understand what I'm saying. The mass x acceleration is not with me today. :glare:

[ma23peas]

So we have several issues going on: her refusing to check her work (a.k.a. laziness), the lie (and I do consider it a lie), the attitude... I don't know what to do, but I don't think I can let it slide. Is there something I could have handled better? How I should I discipline this?

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Sounds like she's got a case of the twats..just one stage short of the twits.

 

Attitude adjustment: She hates math...give her a reason to view it differently...volunteer at a homeless shelter...let her add up how many groceries are needed a week to help those in need. Take her to an ICU clinic with kids...let her know how important each of those dosages are for those less fortunate. The key is she is content in her little world, content so much that she feels she has the right not the privilege of complaining. I constantly remind my children how fortunate we are...sometimes it just takes doing for others before we realize complaining about math is not a good use of words or time.

 

Often times we fall back on discipline..I am all for it!! My kids have had their video game boxes taken away for 6 months and even sold a whole console and 30 games on Ebay...I don't make empty threats..I don't get overblown with emotion, I just make it clear...if something is causing you to stumble...we remove it.

 

What is causing her to stumble right now is that she is taking a great deal for granted...I am not sure how punishing with discipline will solve the problem...it may only breed more resentment. But, it is so important to find ways to show her aspects of the world that are foreign to her right now. Taking a school day off and going to read to children with major issues or serving those in dire need...brings the attitude back into check.

 

My other go to is 6 sections of fencing...you give attitude..you work it off..I took all three of my children out there one Saturday (our pastures) and we have an acre or more of white vinyl fencing that turns moldy over time..I showed them how to clean it, we cleaned 12 sections in 3 hours..it's that tough..so I kept that bucket/soap/sponge on my counter..sadly, they pulled together their attitude and I have not had to ask them to go wash it...but it's always there and they know I mean it....I don't get mad..I explain why....kids do want to do well, they want to be praised (we often forget that!) and they want to be useful....help them along those roads....

[justamouse]

Yeah, I shouldn't have let her put it aside. Oh well, you win some, you lose some.

 

Sometimes I wonder how she can hate something that she is so good at. Is that normal?

 

And I wonder how anyone can hate math, lol. I love it!

 

Well, she's a year ahead, so that counts for something? Otherwise, she'd be bored and hate it because it was boring, right?

 

She may hate it because she can't play with it yet, and is still at the learning it all phase.

[AK_Mom4]

I can give you math advice. They do the problems, you check them and then they correct RIGHT AWAY.

I had a whole passel of math haters.

:iagree:

 

This sounds painful at first, but actually it has saved huge unhappiness here. For DD10, math is easy. It was the same for her older brother. And they both hate it like crazy. I check each problem immediately after they work it. If it is wrong, they fix it right then. Takes more of your time, but is well worth it.

[myfunnybunch]

I see now that I could have handled it better. I'm glad I posted!

 

Can I ask why you think it's too much for an 11 year old to be responsible and remember what they said they would do? She's been doing it for years. Maybe that's odd. I don't know; this is the first 11 year I've had, lol. My 9 year old is the same way. She is really good about remembering to do what she's supposed to do.

 

In this particular case, Anna admitted she didn't forget. She just didn't want to do it and decided that since she didn't actually say "yes" that she didn't have to do it. I understand forgetting. But that wasn't what happened.

 

Well, that's a whole different ball of wax, then.

 

I do think that when a kid is experiencing other behavioral challenges, regardless of age, simply forgetting or even kind of forgetting something isn't a priority. To me it's not about what a child is capable of at a certain age, it's what that child is capable of at the time. Had she simply forgotten, I would not have considered her response a lie.

 

If she just chose not to do it, I'd consider that disobedience (rather than lying) and deal with it accordingly. I'd also do what you're doing right now and re-evaluate to see how to set her up for success in the future.

 

:grouphug: You're doing a good job, Nakia.

 

And (sigh) I DO think an 11 y.o. SHOULD be able to remember what he says he's going to do. Er, I mean, she....:tongue_smilie: I think my 11 y.o.'s brain has been taken over by aliens or something. He's really pushing the boundaries in some areas too. I thought it was supposed to be smooth sailing until the teen years.

 

Cat

[Denisemomof4]

Hi Nakia, because being at the barn is therapeutic for your dd, I would not take it away from her. What I would do is on days you are going out, have her do math first, check it, then make sure it is corrected before you leave.

 

:grouphug: oh yippee. Hormones.:grouphug: