s/o waiter/waitress tips...rant

[melissel]

:svengo:

 

:lol::lol::lol: OK, I'm from NJ, and even I consider the Sopranos a purely NJ/NY thing.

[LibraryLover]

Well, you are a curious people, you know. :tongue_smilie:

 

It sometimes irks me that you are all so "proper" in what I perceive as "all the wrong areas" (timeliness, etc. - as opposed to academic standards propriety, for example), but most of the time, I kind of pity you for what I perceive as being "tense" (I realize that you are not actually tense and that it is a normal way of being, but it is hard for me to grasp that). I am often willing to sacrifice some efficiency for good atmosphere, and I know many people who are willing to do so. Yes, it means there will be more "chaos" on a day to day basis, but if you can laugh through it, it is all good. :lol:

 

 

Wait. Are you saying McDonald's doesn't have good atmosphere? :001_huh:

[LibraryLover]

:lol::lol::lol: OK, I'm from NJ, and even I consider the Sopranos a purely NJ/NY thing.

 

 

lol I've actually never seen the Sopranos. All I know about the mob is what I've learned from reading about Frank Sinatra.

 

And from Ma on The Golden Girls when she talked about her childhood in Sicily.

 

Was Mussolini a mobster? ;)

Edited January 15, 2012 by LibraryLover

[kiana]

 

And keep in mind that everything that goes wrong during the meal gets taken out of the waitresses tip. She told someone to refill your drink and they didn't? Lower tip. The kitchen forgot you didn't want onions in your food? Lower tip. Crying baby at the next table? Wrong kind of music playing? Restaurant too cold? Take it out of the tip!

 

People treat the wait staff like their own personal servants. And their income is determined by the whims of the customer. Till you've actually waitressed, you have NO idea what they have to put up with and people get all moody if they make more than min wage? I honestly think everyone should be required to wait tables for a year in high school.

 

But that, imo, is why the charge should be included in the bill in the first place and the waitress should get paid a reasonable wage.

[KungFuPanda]

So... with all the tips threads, I thought I would look up what I have always wondered about. I grew up hearing that you need to tip well b/c waiters don't get paid much, etc. However, my sister waitresses and makes a TON of money. I also knew people who quit teaching school b/c they made more $ waitressing than they did teaching!! Now, I've never been a waitress, so maybe I am mis-informed on how difficult of a job it is, but that just seems ridiculous to me. I just looked it up and here in CA, waiters get at least minimum wage plus tips - which usually means that they will earn $20-30/hr. And, many get benefits as well ... Is it just me, or does something not seem right? It's a profession which requires no further education, and yet we are "expected" to tip? ... Sorry, I have an issue with expected tips to begin with as I feel that tipping should be an added gift/bonus for a job well done, not just a social expectation. So to find out that they make that much $ kind of frustrates me. Am I the only one, or do I need to be slapped upside the head? I truly wish that restaurants and other establishments would simply include the pay for tips and products as a whole and that we didn't have to deal with tips at all...

(FYI, I own a high $ service oriented business- but would never even think about expecting tips - nor do I want my clients to do so. We do get tips, but I don't care one way or another if they tip or how much. I simply care that they like the product provided. I charge what I want to be paid. Seems simple to me.)

 

I thing people leave teaching because it pays dismally little for the actual hours you put in. People leave because they can wait tables, get paid more per hour of work, and NOT take the work home. This is a reflection of how little these college grads get paid, not of how lucrative service work can be.

 

As for the way they get paid . . . the customer pays either way. It's still a single transaction. The only difference is a little mental math. The wait staff would probably get paid more consistently if it were added to the check, but as a customer, your bottom line is the same (unless you have a habit of stiffing the servers).

 

Maybe, as a society, we can no longer be trusted to pay on the honor system. When I tip a server, I don't think of it as a generous 'gift' on my part, but as paying someone for a service. Whether or not they have a degree doesn't effect how well they can serve the public. If it were an easy job, there would be no stories of horrendous service!

[leeannpal]

Totally agree. This thread has made me so angry. People talk about how wrong it is for folks to feel "entitled," well to me, this is one area I agree. People should not feel entitled to go to a restaurant, and get service without paying the laborer what his labor is worth.

 

It's unconscionable to me--demanding service while denigrating the labor of those doing the work.

 

:iagree: Service industry jobs are a very important part of the U.S. economy. Let's not knock hard working people who are just trying to make a living and provide a nice dining experience for their customers.

[melissel]

And from Ma on The Golden Girls when she talked about her childhood in Sicily.

 

:lol: I don't know much personally, but I know it's all real. Some of my great-uncles were involved (albeit minimally). I did know the ex-girlfriend of one of the guys involved in the Lufthansa heist in 1978. She said he was and always will be the love of her life, but she was so glad they were already apart when all that happened.

 

I don't know how much it really translates back to Italy though. If you believe the Godfather... I don't know. Maybe Ester Maria can tell us?

[Ester Maria]

:crying:

[LibraryLover]

For the record and to be (finally) on topic. I *always* leave 20%, even if the service wasn't stellar. It's not the fault of the wait staff if there's a brawl in the kitchen, or if the bartender is drunk etc.

[LibraryLover]

:crying:

 

 

 

Poor Ester Maria. lol

 

We're odd Americans. It's the lack of minerals in our soil.

[Aelwydd]

Poor Ester Maria. lol

 

We're odd Americans. It's the lack of minerals in our soil.

 

 

You actually made me do a spit-take. Bravo.

[Aelwydd]

For the record and to be (finally) on topic. I *always* leave 20%, even if the service wasn't stellar. It's not the fault of the wait staff if there's a brawl in the kitchen, or if the bartender is drunk etc.

 

And I like hockey, so you know, a brawl is almost always a bonus anyway in my book.

[LibraryLover]

You actually made me do a spit-take. Bravo.

 

 

Prego.

[LibraryLover]

And I like hockey, so you know, a brawl is almost always a bonus anyway in my book.

 

Exactly. If it's loud enough, it's a floor show.

 

I have a brawl/food event/story that I witnessed in Athens. I may have told it before. I should start a new thread...

Edited January 15, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Mrs Mungo]

And for the record, I grew up in Europe. The service was fine. It wasn't awesome, but it was decent. And the service I typically receive here is decent. Some things are better, some are worse.

 

I lived in Germany for several years as an adult with small kids. Restaurants didn't open until at least 6, often more like 7. We could count on a meal taking 3 hours because of the slow service. We hardly ever went out to eat.

 

Except when I want something ;) and the only time I have off to run to the market is siesta time.

 

For instance, I think it's terrible some supermarkets are open 24/7. What sort of egocentric, manic work -driven society would want stuff at all hours of the day and night... but sometimes I need Motrin for a child's tortured ear pain at 2am, dammit. They need to stay open for me me me!

 

I agree. It's difficult. I can see the need for a 24 hour store. Shift workers need groceries too. I don't think *everything* needs to be open 24 hours a day.

 

So, what you're saying is that we are the Germans to Mexico's America. :001_huh:

 

Americans are uptight about totally different things than Germans or Italians. I think most cultures are uptight about some things and not others. You want to see an uptight Italian? Try to get an American style pizza, lol! Every culture thinks every other culture is weird.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Aelwydd]

 

Americans are uptight about totally different things than Germans or Italians. I think most cultures are uptight about some things and not others. You want to see an uptight Italian? Try to get an American style pizza, lol! Every culture thinks every other culture is weird.

 

Oh, when I said that, I was just thinking of my half-German spouse, and his weirdly emphatic obsession with trains (and everything else) being. exactly. on. time.

[LibraryLover]

Oh, when I said that, I was just thinking of my half-German spouse, and his weirdly emphatic obsession with trains (and everything else) being. exactly. on. time.

 

 

I have a spouse who thinks an orange in your shoe is a way to celebrate Christmas morning.

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, when I said that, I was just thinking of my half-German spouse, and his weirdly emphatic obsession with trains (and everything else) being. exactly. on. time.

 

I certainly never waited on a train or even a repair guy who failed to show up, that is for sure!

[Tigger]

It is assumed that we won't tip the 18%. Eight or more and it is assumed you won't tip enough. That is discriminatory.

 

I don't think it's discriminatory - let's say a party of 8 has a bill of $240 ($30 per person)....there are a number of people who would balk at a $43.20 tip even though they'd say they routinely tip 20% when they eat out...and they probably do, until it's a big tab, then it sometimes becomes a "hmm..." did the server "really" earn that, as if they didn't somehow in serving a larger party than two or three smaller parties. I don't eat out in any restaurant, regardless of our party size, where I can't afford to leave 20% - but some don't realize when you're a larger party, your bill is going to be big and you still need to tip appropriately, not lesser just because the bill is big and you don't think they earned it!

[Parrothead]

I don't think it's discriminatory - let's say a party of 8 has a bill of $240 ($30 per person)....there are a number of people who would balk at a $43.20 tip even though they'd say they routinely tip 20% when they eat out...and they probably do, until it's a big tab, then it sometimes becomes a "hmm..." did the server "really" earn that, as if they didn't somehow in serving a larger party than two or three smaller parties. I don't eat out in any restaurant, regardless of our party size, where I can't afford to leave 20% - but some don't realize when you're a larger party, your bill is going to be big and you still need to tip appropriately, not lesser just because the bill is big and you don't think they earned it!

I have to ask. Where are you eating that you pay $30 per person? Wow! I don't think I'd eat there even if I could afford it.

[MHowell]

I have to ask. Where are you eating that you pay $30 per person? Wow! I don't think I'd eat there even if I could afford it.

 

There are quite a few places in our county that charge and are worth that. Right now it is restaurant month and all the top places make prix fixe 3 course menus. Delish! We had a girls night at one last night. The top place in the county is Artisan, and for two of us (with wine) it's usually $150ish. We had dinner there right before Christmas and for 5 of us it was $300. My BIL left a $50 tip (and my hubby called him cheap and left more).

[beaners]

I have to ask. Where are you eating that you pay $30 per person? Wow! I don't think I'd eat there even if I could afford it.

 

When we lived nearby, we would receive a gift certificate for this restaurant as a birthday or anniversary present. Both the food and service are amazing. We wouldn't have been able to afford it otherwise though.

 

 

http://www.scotchnsirloin.com/

[Tigger]

I have to ask. Where are you eating that you pay $30 per person? Wow! I don't think I'd eat there even if I could afford it.

 

When DH has to take out colleagues, the restaurants we go to tend to be $30-50 per person at the end of the meal, since quite a few will order drinks, or appetizers, or desserts. There is also one restaurant in our area that is pricey, but DH and I like it and go as a treat now and then, that averages $100 with no alcohol for the two of us.

[MHowell]

Ohhh or here I've waited HOURS without a reservation for this place.

[Parrothead]

Location, location, location. :D

 

 

But I will say I don't think Cindergetta is taking her family of 8 to those types restaurants. I may be wrong though. :)

[Parrothead]

Ohhh or here I've waited HOURS without a reservation for this place.

The crunchy in me came out when I saw the menu.

...our Mid-Western corn-fed beef ...

 

I immediately thought, "Eww! I'd only pay those prices for organic grass-fed." :lol:

Edited January 15, 2012 by Parrothead

[Mrs Mungo]

I have to ask. Where are you eating that you pay $30 per person? Wow! I don't think I'd eat there even if I could afford it.

 

We ate at this restaurant for special occasions when we lived in Hawaii. So ono!!

[cindergretta]

I don't think it's discriminatory - let's say a party of 8 has a bill of $240 ($30 per person)....there are a number of people who would balk at a $43.20 tip even though they'd say they routinely tip 20% when they eat out...and they probably do, until it's a big tab, then it sometimes becomes a "hmm..." did the server "really" earn that, as if they didn't somehow in serving a larger party than two or three smaller parties. I don't eat out in any restaurant, regardless of our party size, where I can't afford to leave 20% - but some don't realize when you're a larger party, your bill is going to be big and you still need to tip appropriately, not lesser just because the bill is big and you don't think they earned it!

 

:confused: You prove my point, though. We are not a party of 8, tipping per person. We are a *family* of 8, tipping 20%+ on our total bill. Period. Why on earth do I care what *other* large groups do or don't do? Why on earth would I want to be discriminated against because what other people do or don't do? :confused: I flat out couldn't afford to eat at such an establishment, nor would I. And I certainly wouldn't take my children there. But if I take my family of 8 out and the bill is $100, I will tip on $100, $20+.

 

What if it were a couple and the bill was $150? Maybe they would normally tip 20% on their usual $50 bill, but this is just too much for them so they will simply tip $20 and call it good? It has nothing to do with numbers of people and everything to do with individuals and how they tip, well or poorly. But some want to look at my family and assume that we won't tip well because other groups don't? If we were a family of 7, that would be fine. But wow, add on that extra kid and now all of a sudden, we might not be responsible enough to tip on the whole bill because other people might not.

 

I'm sorry. Honestly, it doesn't make sense to me. It makes sense to me in terms of mixed groups, as I have stated over and over, but it doesn't make sense to me when it is a family - parents with their children. It can be explained 18 different ways, but at the end, it is the same - large group (regardless of make up) can't be trusted to tip appropriately. Therefore, family of 8 can't be trusted to tip appropriately.

 

Mrs. Mungo - that wasn't our experience at all in Germany. My dad made good money and the exchange rate was killer. We ate out at least 3 times a week, if not more. We also ate almost exclusively at Gasthauses, if that makes a difference. Things I do remember - no ice in the drinks, no free drink refills, not uncommon to be seated communally - IOW, not uncommon for people to be seated with other people, not at "private" tables. But we certainly didn't spend hours per night languishing at a table, waiting. My parents had us (into our teens!!) on a strict 8pm bedtime. No way we would have waited hours anywhere, on an ongoing, regular basis.

[LibraryLover]

We ate at this restaurant for special occasions when we lived in Hawaii. So ono!!

 

 

Oh! Dh and I celebrated our wedding anniversay here this year:

 

www.chezpanisse.com

 

I thought it was worth it. It was lovely. Every little thing was so comfortable and wonderful. I know we tipped 20% , so probably $40, and there was a $25 corkage fee (we brought out own- a gift from a friend). It's not something we do regularly, and no, I probably would not take my kids. ;)

Edited January 15, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Mrs Mungo]

Mrs. Mungo - that wasn't our experience at all in Germany. My dad made good money and the exchange rate was killer. We ate out at least 3 times a week, if not more. We also ate almost exclusively at Gasthauses, if that makes a difference. Things I do remember - no ice in the drinks, no free drink refills, not uncommon to be seated communally - IOW, not uncommon for people to be seated with other people, not at "private" tables. But we certainly didn't spend hours per night languishing at a table, waiting. My parents had us (into our teens!!) on a strict 8pm bedtime. No way we would have waited hours anywhere, on an ongoing, regular basis.

 

It is worth pointing out that we lived in 2 tiny towns, not in bigger cities or touristy areas. I have a feeling that the restaurants you visited with your parents were probably in areas with a bigger American presence that influenced local restaurant culture. Our travels in Europe indicate that my experience with European restaurants is more common than yours. Ester even said that she prefers that dining style.

 

Oh! Dh and I celebrated our wedding anniversay here this year:

 

www.chezpanisse.com

 

I thought it was worth it. It was lovely. The food, the ambiance, the waiter. Just every little thing.

 

It looks lovely! I highly recommend Chai's to anyone visiting Oahu. it is well worth it! Plus, you are generally entertained by famous Hawaiian musicians!

Edited January 15, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[LibraryLover]

Ambiance! Ambiance! Grrrrr..... fix it. lol

 

 

 

It looks lovely! I highly recommend Chai's to anyone visiting Oahu. it is well worth it! Plus, you are generally entertained by famous Hawaiian musicians!

[myfunnybunch]

Only addressing the OP, as I haven't had time to read the entire thread yet:

 

A waiter or waitress in a busy family restaurant *might* make $20-30 during the busiest hour. Busiest 2 hours on a weekend night. But they do not make $20-30 every hour every night that they show up. And that's only working in a busy restaurant handling several tables at once.

 

Also, only if they work in a state that requires food service workers to be paid the state minimum wage. Some states allow restaurants to pay far less than minimim wage with the expectation that the difference will be made up in tips. If the server does not get as many tips (during economically fearful times, for example), he or she does not even earn the minimum wage.

 

It is only if you assume a 20% tip from every table. A very few people tip a little more. Some people tip less. A few people don't tip at all. As a server, you do your best with every table and graciously accept that people are going to leave what they're comfortable leaving, so you may not get a tip even for great service.

 

Out of that tip money, servers are usually expected to tip the bartender for making drinks--even if they have not used the bartender's services, the busboys--even if they've had to bus their own tables, and sometimes the cooks.

 

Servers are taxed on a percentage of their tips. They are taxed on their assumed tips, a percentage of their sales, whether they actually make that much or not. They cannot deduct from their declared taxable tips the amount they've tipped out to the other restaurant staff, so they get taxed on money they had to give to others.

 

Because of the nature of restaurant service, it is very rare for a waiter or waitress to work full time. For some their one or two busy hours is the entire shift; a typical shift for a valued server is usually 4 hours. 5-6 on a weekend night, and those who work those hours typically make minimum wage or less at the beginning and end of the shift because they are setting up or cleaning up. No tips for that. (It is still valuable work, just pointing out that especially in states that allow servers to get hourly wages less than minimum wage, a server could be paid only a couple dollars for that hour's work.)

 

If the restaurant offers insurance to employees, it is only available to those who work full-time. Out of a full staff of servers, that's probably...TWO people. Maybe four in a large restaurant. Those people almost always work split shifts, lunch and dinner, so they are the first to arrive and the last to leave. The servers I knew in this situation usually lived off their tips, because if they opted for insurance it cost them their entire, or nearly the entire, hourly wage check.

 

Servers don't have the option of charging what they think the service is worth or what they want to be paid. At least tipping is voluntary.

 

And it is hard work. Hard work. It's physically demanding. It's mentally demanding. It may not seem like it, but you must be able to multi-task well, have a good memory, and be able to problem-solve quickly in order to be even a decent server in a busy restaurant. It can be emotionally demanding. Waiting tables is a really fun job. You meet all kinds of wonderful people. But not only the wonderful people eat out. There are people who are downright rude, insulting, difficult, mean, messy, spacy, don't discipline their kids...you name it. And a good professional server will give those people the same good service they give the wonderful ones.

 

It's hard work. It's honest work. It's challenging work. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. If you don't want to tip 20%, then don't. But it's not right to say that the work isn't worth what they get paid for it.

 

Cat

[Mrs Mungo]

Ambiance! Ambiance! Grrrrr..... fix it. lol

 

I fixed it, just for you. :D

[LibraryLover]

I fixed it, just for you. :D

 

Grazie. :)

[angela in ohio]

It's a profession which requires no further education, and yet we are "expected" to tip?

 

We live in the land of auto plants, where you make $100,000 with no education, so that's not a factor to me. :D

 

Here, waitresses make $2-something an hour plus tips. The people who tip well help cover the many who don't tip at all. "They can't afford to tip" - but they could afford the meal? :confused:

 

I waited my way through high school and college at family restaurants(Bob Evans, etc.) I made about $15-20/hour with tips, but I worked very, very hard, as pp have said. It was much harder than the other jobs I had - bank teller at $12/hour or cashier for $10/hour. I easily worked twice as hard as a waitress. It is a mentally, physically, and emotionally draining job. People are mean and rude and nasty. At any time, you always have at least one table of mean people. I had men smack me on the behind with menus (and once, a hand,) I had little kids throw things at me, and I had to smile through it all.

 

I waitress up until two days before I had first dd. I busted up my hand and had it bandaged up during that time, and I made a killing. :D Nothing like a 9 month pregnant girl (I looked 17 at 23 yo) with a hand in a cast. If I had to waitress again, I'd fake a pregnancy and/or an injury. It was the only time everyone was nice.

 

And alrge parties: When they were one check and not one family, we usually did okay, because someone paid the bill and someone tipped (they were generous with the tip.) When it wa a large family, it was usually bad, because they would undertip, because as a pp said, the correct tip amount was large. When it was more than one bill, it depended on who they were, but it often wasn't enough to make up for them taking much longer at the table than smaller parties.

Edited January 15, 2012 by angela in ohio

[LMD]

These threads always leave my head spinning. It's another world you guys live in over there in the US.

 

Here in Australia we don't have a tipping culture at all. I dopn't recall ever tipping, except for simple rounding up/not accepting change etc. AFAIK every job must abide by minimum wage laws, no matter what industry.

 

Standard adult minimum wage is $15.51. It's less for juniors and apprentices, the absolute minimum for a 15y/o is $5.71.

 

Hearing that people are only paid $2-$3 an hour + goodwill is un-conscionable to me. We also have many un-trained (ie no degree required) jobs where earning $40K+ a year is normal.

[Parrothead]

These threads always leave my head spinning. It's another world you guys live in over there in the US.

 

Here in Australia we don't have a tipping culture at all. I dopn't recall ever tipping, except for simple rounding up/not accepting change etc. AFAIK every job must abide by minimum wage laws, no matter what industry.

 

Standard adult minimum wage is $15.51. It's less for juniors and apprentices, the absolute minimum for a 15y/o is $5.71.

 

Hearing that people are only paid $2-$3 an hour + goodwill is un-conscionable to me. We also have many un-trained (ie no degree required) jobs where earning $40K+ a year is normal.

Good for you guys. :D

[cindergretta]

It is worth pointing out that we lived in 2 tiny towns, not in bigger cities or touristy areas. I have a feeling that the restaurants you visited with your parents were probably in areas with a bigger American presence that influenced local restaurant culture. Our travels in Europe indicate that my experience with European restaurants is more common than yours. Ester even said that she prefers that dining style.

 

It may be more common, but it doesn't negate my experience. And my point was simply that we didn't suffer from horrible service all over Europe for years. We experienced decent service where we went and given our financial circumstances, we travelled and ate out quite a lot.

 

Not that it matters one whit, but you are incorrect in your assumptions about my family and where we were, and where we visited. ;) My parents quite intentionally avoided anywhere "touristy." We stuck to small villages and towns almost exclusively. And we lived in a pig village - Reidenheim. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

It may be more common, but it doesn't negate my experience. And my point was simply that we didn't suffer from horrible service all over Europe for years. We experienced decent service where we went and given our financial circumstances, we travelled and ate out quite a lot.

 

My point was different than what you are implying. Linger a few hours over a meal is considered healthy and desirable. It is *not* bad service for the culture. It is preferable. It just is not what most Americans think of as good service. There were certainly times we decided not to go out because it would take too long and we had little kids at the time. There were other times when it was fine. There were large restaurants that ran things differently. But, in the tiny 10 table restaurants we usually frequented in our little town, a leisurely meal was to be expected.

 

Ester's comments back up my comments. But, if you choose not to believe us, that's fine, no skin off of my back.

 

Not that it matters one whit, but you are incorrect in your assumptions about my family and where we were, and where we visited. ;) My parents quite intentionally avoided anywhere "touristy." We stuck to small villages and towns almost exclusively. And we lived in a pig village - Reidenheim. :)

 

Okay.

[Sputterduck]

Americans are uptight about totally different things than Germans or Italians. I think most cultures are uptight about some things and not others. You want to see an uptight Italian? Try to get an American style pizza, lol! Every culture thinks every other culture is weird.

 

I actually did that once. It was in America, though, at the best Italian place I've ever eaten at. I doubt the chef has forgiven me yet. He was quite offended at the whole idea of how I wanted to special order my pizza. I shut up and ate it the way he made it, and it was fabulous as is all of his food.

[cindergretta]

My point was different than what you are implying. Linger a few hours over a meal is considered healthy and desirable. It is *not* bad service for the culture. It is preferable. It just is not what most Americans think of as good service. There were certainly times we decided not to go out because it would take too long and we had little kids at the time. There were other times when it was fine. There were large restaurants that ran things differently. But, in the tiny 10 table restaurants we usually frequented in our little town, a leisurely meal was to be expected.

 

Ester's comments back up my comments. But, if you choose not to believe us, that's fine, no skin off of my back.

 

 

 

Okay.

 

:confused: Way back in your earlier post, I must have misread you. I read your post as saying you waited for hours for *service* and thus didn't go back. I didn't read it as a cultural lingering over the meal. Many people all over spent entire evenings sitting in Gasthauses. (Stammtisch) *We* didn't. It wasn't my parents things and we ate and left, like we do here. Others went regularly for an hours long evening out. It wasn't what *we* did and it didn't affect our service.

[cindergretta]

I lived in Germany for several years as an adult with small kids. Restaurants didn't open until at least 6, often more like 7. We could count on a meal taking 3 hours because of the slow service. We hardly ever went out to eat.

 

 

This is where the confusion occurred.

[Mrs Mungo]

:confused: Way back in your earlier post, I must have misread you. I read your post as saying you waited for hours for *service* and thus didn't go back. I didn't read it as a cultural lingering over the meal. Many people all over spent entire evenings sitting in Gasthauses. (Stammtisch) *We* didn't. It wasn't my parents things and we ate and left, like we do here. Others went regularly for an hours long evening out. It wasn't what *we* did and it didn't affect our service.

 

This is where the confusion occurred.

 

I don't see how my statements conflict. Lingering over the meal is common in Europe. As Ester pointed out, Europeans don't want to be bothered constantly by servers. Because of these two cultural differences, service is slow *from an American perspective*. It is desired and preferred by most Europeans. I didn't say that we didn't go back. I said we ate out less frequently because we had small children (two of our kids were born in Germany) who weren't likely to sit still for that sort of lingering evening. It would bother me less now that we have older kids and would be less likely affect our habits than it did then.

[cindergretta]

I didn't say they conflicted. I said this was where the *confusion* occurred. Clearly, I was confused by what you meant.

[GingerPoppy]

Ok, here's where tipping doesn't make a lot of sense to me:

 

A couple goes out to a casual place, get the veggie fajitas to share (it's a two-person platter), and drink water because they feel it's healthy. Bill comes to $15 plus tax. Server brings water, refills them, brings all the dishes that go along with fajitas, takes order, cleans up. Tip at 20% could be $3.

 

A couple goes to a fancy place, get steak dinners, and drink wine. The plates are $30 each and the wine is $40. Server does perhaps the same amount of work as at the fajita place, or probably somewhat less. Tip at 20% is $20. And what if they had ordered the $80 bottle of wine? Why would that be worth an extra $8 for the server? Did they really do anything extra to deserve it?

 

So why the huge difference? Does one deserve it more than the other, just because they found a job at a fancier restaurant? People should be able to use their discretion.

[melissel]

Ok, here's where tipping doesn't make a lot of sense to me:

 

A couple goes out to a casual place, get the veggie fajitas to share (it's a two-person platter), and drink water because they feel it's healthy. Bill comes to $15 plus tax. Server brings water, refills them, brings all the dishes that go along with fajitas, takes order, cleans up. Tip at 20% could be $3.

 

A couple goes to a fancy place, get steak dinners, and drink wine. The plates are $30 each and the wine is $40. Server does perhaps the same amount of work as at the fajita place, or probably somewhat less. Tip at 20% is $20. And what if they had ordered the $80 bottle of wine? Why would that be worth an extra $8 for the server? Did they really do anything extra to deserve it?

 

So why the huge difference? Does one deserve it more than the other, just because they found a job at a fancier restaurant? People should be able to use their discretion.

 

Hmm. Off the top of my head, I'd say the level of sophistication and professionalism/demeanor required at the fancier place automatically rates an increase in pay, as would the probably use of crisp uniforms rather than casual clothing and the requisite extra care taken with makeup and hair (in the case of a woman, anyway). There's probably more to be familiar with on the fancy menu, and the server would be expected to have more knowledge of wines and such. So right there there's an increase in expectations that would involve higher pay.

 

As for the price of the bottle of wine, I don't know what's normally done. We don't drink much when we're out. Maybe someone else can speak to the convention there?

[reign]

When I waitressed I made $2.50 an hour plus tips and I was taxed 10% whether I made that or not and I had to share tips with the bartender and the busboys and the hostesses. I was NOT getting rich and I worked my butt off.

 

Yes to this. I have been paid 2.65 a hour though. I have only know a hand full of servers that got benifits. Those are the ones that also worked as managers or bartenders. Most servers are not given fulltime so that they do not qualify for medical. I think its fine to hate the system and want it to change but in the mean time if people use the system they should tip. I have gotten anti-tipping tracks as parting gifts from tables(instead of a tip). Not cool.

[Caroline]

Ok, here's where tipping doesn't make a lot of sense to me:

 

A couple goes out to a casual place, get the veggie fajitas to share (it's a two-person platter), and drink water because they feel it's healthy. Bill comes to $15 plus tax. Server brings water, refills them, brings all the dishes that go along with fajitas, takes order, cleans up. Tip at 20% could be $3.

 

A couple goes to a fancy place, get steak dinners, and drink wine. The plates are $30 each and the wine is $40. Server does perhaps the same amount of work as at the fajita place, or probably somewhat less. Tip at 20% is $20. And what if they had ordered the $80 bottle of wine? Why would that be worth an extra $8 for the server? Did they really do anything extra to deserve it?

 

So why the huge difference? Does one deserve it more than the other, just because they found a job at a fancier restaurant? People should be able to use their discretion.

 

At the place with the bottle of wine, the waitress probably has to tip out to the bartender on that bottle of wine. The fajita waitress does not.

 

At the steak dinner, the waitress probably had to plate and bring out salads and rolls. Patrons at more expensive restaurants are generally more demanding. The waitress had to memorize a list of specials. She had to ask more questions--what type of salad dressing? How do you want your steak done? What sides do you want? Would you like sour cream and butter for your potato? She also had to bring water and refill water glasses, even though they were drinking wine.

 

And everything Melissa said...

[melissel]

At the place with the bottle of wine, the waitress probably has to tip out to the bartender on that bottle of wine. The fajita waitress does not.

 

At the steak dinner, the waitress probably had to plate and bring out salads and rolls. Patrons at more expensive restaurants are generally more demanding. The waitress had to memorize a list of specials. She had to ask more questions--what type of salad dressing? How do you want your steak done? What sides do you want? Would you like sour cream and butter for your potato? She also had to bring water and refill water glasses, even though they were drinking wine.

 

And everything Melissa said...

 

Oh yes! Good points, and I forgot about that demanding bartender :tongue_smilie: So there you go.

[Jen500]

 

As for the price of the bottle of wine, I don't know what's normally done. We don't drink much when we're out. Maybe someone else can speak to the convention there?

 

At nicer restaurants we've been served wine by a wine steward.