Does my son really need a laptop?

[Jennifer in MI]

All he wants for Christmas is a laptop. He is 15 and in 10th grade and wants to start teaching himself programming. Our family computer is a Mac and he is telling me he needs a PC. I forget the type of programming he wants, but he says he cannot do it on the Mac. My problem? He leaves for college in 2 1/2 years and we will have to get him another computer then!

 

So, can he really not learn Programming on the Mac?

[jennsmile]

I don't know what kind of computer you need for programming but a small laptop used is a few hundred dollars. Maybe split 1/2 with ds. I had a brother that loved messing with computers. He played around with DOS will the rest of us were grateful for windows.

 

And why would he need a new one when he goes to college? I know things get outdated quickly but simple word processing doesn't change that much.

[Iucounu]

It's possible that he can't learn certain types of programming on the Mac that he could on a PC, especially if it's an older Mac. Newer ones can run Windows, of course, but that would entail the expense of a Windows license.

 

If you can afford $300+ now, I'd get him a laptop; he may wind up using the machine for college just fine, and in the meantime should get plenty of value out of it. Prices have continued to drop year to year, and you can get an amazing deal on a new laptop in a wide range of configuration and size options if you shop around. Fatwallet.org has regular laptop specials that are worth checking out, and you should also check out the outlets at Lenovo, HP, Dell, etc.

[Jennifer in MI]

I don't know what kind of computer you need for programming but a small laptop used is a few hundred dollars. Maybe split 1/2 with ds. I had a brother that loved messing with computers. He played around with DOS will the rest of us were grateful for windows.

 

And why would he need a new one when he goes to college? I know things get outdated quickly but simple word processing doesn't change that much.

 

Don't most colleges have lists of computers? I don't know. I just assumed he'd need a new one because of how quickly technology changes.

 

He has one picked out that he really wants. He knows the specs and all. I wouldn't dare try to pick one out used! I wish though!

[Remudamom]

If you can swing it I'd absolutely get him one. If you can't it's not the end of the world!!

[Jennifer in MI]

It's possible that he can't learn certain types of programming on the Mac that he could on a PC, especially if it's an older Mac. Newer ones can run Windows, of course, but that would entail the expense of a Windows license.

 

If you can afford $300+ now, I'd get him a laptop; he may wind up using the machine for college just fine, and in the meantime should get plenty of value out of it. Prices have continued to drop year to year, and you can get an amazing deal on a new laptop in a wide range of configuration and size options if you shop around. Fatwallet.org has regular laptop specials that are worth checking out, and you should also check out the outlets at Lenovo, HP, Dell, etc.

 

Thanks. He doesn't want to learn the Mac programming, unfortunately. We have a newer mac (1 year old). The one he found does look like a great buy!

[nono]

He sounds well thought out.

 

Also, you want him away from the family computer. A production environment is no place for testing! Seems like he's already got that point drilled in his head. Good for him! I wish a couple of my former clients had... :tongue_smilie:

[Pretty in Pink]

I don't think Christmas is necessarily about needs so we would get him the laptop if we could afford it. If not, no biggie.

[Jennifer in MI]

If you can swing it I'd absolutely get him one. If you can't it's not the end of the world!!

 

Thanks. Yes. We can swing it. I am just very frugal and try hard not to spend money if I don't have to. Sounds like this would be a legitimate expense then. Thanks!

[Iucounu]

Thanks. He doesn't want to learn the Mac programming, unfortunately. We have a newer mac (1 year old). The one he found does look like a great buy!

He may be snowing you a bit just in order to get a laptop he wants. Unless he's considering some sort of Windows-specific programming (for instance, Microsoft .NET programming, which would be an odd choice for a teenager) there's likely to be a Mac-native programming environment for it. In addition, your newer Mac can certainly run Windows, so one option for you is to buy a Windows license and let him use it on your machine for his programming.

 

Ask him what type of programming he intends to do, if you like, and I will give more info.

[amy g.]

I can't say that he needs it, but as the mom of a 15 year old, I'd sure get it for him if I could.

[Jennifer in MI]

Another reason I was thinking of not doing it was that I would really like to get a combo gift for both boys and my dh. A home gym. (Weights, bench, new tv on the wall, medicine balls, etc etc etc.) But, to do both the gym and a laptop is out of my comfort range price wise.

 

And, an added benefit is that I can use the gym too!

[vonfirmath]

He may be snowing you a bit just in order to get a laptop he wants. Unless he's considering some sort of Windows-specific programming (for instance, Microsoft .NET programming, which would be an odd choice for a teenager) there's likely to be a Mac-native programming environment for it. In addition, your newer Mac can certainly run Windows, so one option for you is to buy a Windows license and let him use it on your machine for his programming.

 

Ask him what type of programming he intends to do, if you like, and I will give more info.

 

I actually expect that he's talking about Visual Basic or such (that is in .NET now I believe?)

[Iucounu]

It's not possible to teach a course on computer languages here, sorry. Trying to keep it very simple, it would be an odd choice for a teenager because he wouldn't have heard that his friends are programming in .NET and thus wouldn't have any social reason to use it, and there would not be any primary reason making him choose .NET programming over the large numbers of other better starting places, unless his long-term goal is to wind up doing mostly business programming in .NET.

 

People, keep in mind it's this or a gym. If the kid wants to program in something that the Mac would support, that might be the best option.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Iucounu

[Jennifer in MI]

Apple's focus is more on consumer electronics rather than software so my guess is that most applications are PC based and anything for Apple probably started out as PC based. There are probably more opportunities for PC based programmers.

 

My husband doesn't do much programming, but he tests programs. He has many different computers at work to use (one is an Apple), but about 99% of the time he is using and testing on the PCs. They just have the Apples for the small percentage of customers that use them (they sell stuff to school districts). And this was the case for the other 2 companies he worked for as well.

 

Laptops have really come down in price. I'd definitely get him one if you can swing it. He can use it for things other than programming too. My DS uses his daily for school.

 

Thank you! This helps his case!

[katilac]

We bought dd a laptop for her 13th birthday in July, and it was a great choice. When they get into time-consuming interests like programming, video editing, and so on, it makes it more difficult to just share the family computer.

 

You can always say that you will give him X amount toward the laptop as his gift. We did that for other dd when she was 9 and wanted an American Girl doll for her birthday - she had just gotten one for Christmas, and we don't usually spend that much for birthdays unless they need a new bike.

[Jennifer in MI]

He may be snowing you a bit just in order to get a laptop he wants. Unless he's considering some sort of Windows-specific programming (for instance, Microsoft .NET programming, which would be an odd choice for a teenager) there's likely to be a Mac-native programming environment for it. In addition, your newer Mac can certainly run Windows, so one option for you is to buy a Windows license and let him use it on your machine for his programming.

 

Ask him what type of programming he intends to do, if you like, and I will give more info.

 

I will ask him when he gets up! Friday is a day off for us. How much is a windows license?

[AngieW in Texas]

We were in the opposite boat. We got our oldest a laptop for her 16th birthday and she took it to college. We ended up needing to get her a macbook her 1st semester. She's working on a degree in animation and macs are what's recommended for that. She had a much easier time once she had a 2nd computer.

 

Laptops are very inexpensive compared to macbooks. I'd go ahead and get him a laptop if you can swing it. Having both is an asset.

 

My dd leaves her laptop in her dorm room and takes her macbook with her to classes.

Edited December 9, 2011 by AngieW in Texas

[Teachin'Mine]

It would be money well spent. :001_smile:

[redsquirrel]

I would be thanking my lucky stars that my teen wanted a PC and not a Mac. A decent PC laptop is half the cost of a Mac. And you can get very inexpensive laptops for even less. Mostly what I see around here is the opposite, the family owns PC but the teen is screaming he needs that airbook to be seen in public. :lol:

 

A bunch of folks dh works with have cheap Asics netbooks and laptops that they use for commuting and conferences etc. They work fine but don't cost much so if they get scratched etc it's not a big deal.

 

My friend's husband is a programmer and he hangs out and surfs on his Mac and works and programs and games on his pc. He takes his pcs apart and makes new computers etc etc.

[ereks mom]

I don't think Christmas is necessarily about needs so we would get him the laptop if we could afford it. If not, no biggie.

 

:iagree:

[elegantlion]

No, it's not an odd choice. We're in the opposite boat too. Ds has a laptop (old hand me down) and a desktop, but wants a Mac for graphics work.

[Tammyla]

I think it would be a useful tool and a wonderful gift. There are a lot of great deals out there this year on laptops.

 

(Whispering...my ds has one under the tree;).)

[Starr]

If you can't get it now give it to him for his birthday. :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

All he wants for Christmas is a laptop. He is 15 and in 10th grade and wants to start teaching himself programming. Our family computer is a Mac and he is telling me he needs a PC. I forget the type of programming he wants, but he says he cannot do it on the Mac. My problem? He leaves for college in 2 1/2 years and we will have to get him another computer then!

 

So, can he really not learn Programming on the Mac?

 

If you do end up needing to get a different computer for his college years, could he pass down this laptop to another kid in the family?

[HiddenJewel]

He may be snowing you a bit just in order to get a laptop he wants. Unless he's considering some sort of Windows-specific programming (for instance, Microsoft .NET programming, which would be an odd choice for a teenager) there's likely to be a Mac-native programming environment for it. In addition, your newer Mac can certainly run Windows, so one option for you is to buy a Windows license and let him use it on your machine for his programming.

 

Ask him what type of programming he intends to do, if you like, and I will give more info.

 

My 15-year old is learning VB so I don't see it as a odd choice for a teen. But perhaps that is because her dad is a programmer. And she would like a laptop of her own as well which I would love to be able to accomodate.

[GoVanGogh]

DH is a software engineer. (He graduated 25 years ago and decided his career path long before computers were household items.) I sent him the OP question and this was his response:

 

If they have a particular career path they are considering then the answer would be more cut and dry. Graphic art, education, things like that... Mac. Engineering, science, math, business, Information Technology... Windows.

 

 

Apple's focus is more on consumer electronics rather than software so my guess is that most applications are PC based and anything for Apple probably started out as PC based.

Totally agree with.

[nono]

It's not possible to teach a course on computer languages here, sorry. Trying to keep it very simple, it would be an odd choice for a teenager because he wouldn't have heard that his friends are programming in .NET and thus wouldn't have any social reason to use it, and there would not be any primary reason making him choose .NET programming over the large numbers of other better starting places, unless his long-term goal is to wind up doing mostly business programming in .NET.

 

 

:001_huh: Thank you for being clear that you consider the adults reading along ignorant of the subject matter, and that you are clairvoyant and know all this young man's contacts. :lol:

[Catwoman]

I haven't read all of the other replies, but yes, he needs the computer. It will be money well spent.

[amy g.]

Here is part of my son's computer set up:

 

 

He built a gaming computer and added two monitors, you can also see his Mac and other laptop.

 

He didn't need any of it, but I think it's just part of being a 15 year old boy these days.

[TranquilMind]

If you can swing it I'd absolutely get him one. If you can't it's not the end of the world!!

Agree. Get him a laptop. Encourage that interest in programming. If you look at Fry's or any of the big electronic stores they are having real deals right now. You could pick up a new one with 6GB and 1 TB of storage for a few hundred bucks. Much better than what I bought my daughter a couple of years ago for a class she took, which was VERY useful by the way, now that she is in high school and needs to prepare powerpoints.

[Iucounu]

:001_huh: Thank you for being clear that you consider the adults reading along ignorant of the subject matter, and that you are clairvoyant and know all this young man's contacts. :lol:

You're quite welcome. Obviously, posting a link to a page with some .NET languages listed, suggesting that that is evidence of why a teenager would want to program in .NET, while professing ignorance, suffices for being well read on a topic in your mind.

[Iucounu]

Even my 9 year old dabbles with VB. Kids who are interested pick these things up very easily.

Your 9-year-old son is extremely unusual. It's not that VB is difficult to pick up for a 9-year-old (my son began programming in Java at age 4 for what it's worth), it's that it's not used in elementary or high schools to teach programming these days. Nor is it the best language or environment for teaching beginning computer programming in general. Nor is it bound to be a hot topic for your son's friends, either.

 

ETA: The reason there are so many .NET languages listed on the Wikipedia page you found is Microsoft's focus on .NET as a business programming environment. What they did was set .NET up from the beginning so that front-end languages (like J#, C#, COBOL.NET etc.) could be written to mimic the syntax of well-established languages used by businesses, theoretically making migration of those programmers to a .NET environment easier with little retraining. When a program's written in a .NET-compliant language, it is compiled into "common intermediate language" bytecode as an intermediary step before being compiled further into "native code". For Microsoft to add a new syntax on top of this arrangement and still make programs run on .NET is easy, and it is intentionally set up that way to foster adoption by business. Uptake by the high school crowd has been a bit less rapid.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Iucounu

[TheApprentice]

My ds will get a laptop for Christmas. He will use it for games and his classes. And it will free up the computer for my other 2 boys.

[amy g.]

Your 9-year-old son is extremely unusual. It's not that VB is difficult to pick up for a 9-year-old (my son began programming in Java at age 4 for what it's worth), it's that it's not used in elementary or high schools to teach programming these days. Nor is it the best language or environment for teaching beginning computer programming in general. Nor is it bound to be a hot topic for your son's friends, either.

 

Ds disagrees with the above, and thinks it is a suitable first language for a teenager who has the personality and motivation to teach himself.

[Iucounu]

Ds disagrees with the above, and thinks it is a suitable first language for a teenager who has the personality and motivation to teach himself.

Wow, that was fast! More "confirmation" that what I know based on real-world experience to be impossible is actually true-- that kids everywhere are programming in, and knowledgeable about, Visual Basic. I guess that one can take the word of someone with a computer science and programming backround with a decade-plus of experience, or one can scoff. In the real world the OP's son is not wanting to program in VB; he just wants a Windows laptop so he can play games more easily. What experience in teaching beginning programming does your DS15 have, out of curiosity? I've actually been an instructor in the past.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Iucounu

[HiddenJewel]

Your 9-year-old son is extremely unusual. It's not that VB is difficult to pick up for a 9-year-old (my son began programming in Java at age 4 for what it's worth), it's that it's not used in elementary or high schools to teach programming these days. Nor is it the best language or environment for teaching beginning computer programming in general. Nor is it bound to be a hot topic for your son's friends, either.

 

That's the nice thing about some kids. They don't have to be doing something just because their friends might be interested in it.

 

I am curious why you don't think it is a good language to start with. What does it lack that is a must for beginners?

[elegantlion]

Here is part of my son's computer set up:

 

He built a gaming computer and added two monitors, you can also see his Mac and other laptop.

 

He didn't need any of it, but I think it's just part of being a 15 year old boy these days.

 

Very sweet! My ds is headed that direction. He has two monitors for the desktop and a laptop. He has a list of additions he will do as money allows.

 

I've added car maintenance, personal finance, and cooking to our subjects to cover well, as he will probably spend all of his disposable income on electronics. :lol:

 

ETA: He added drawing supplies to list too. :lol:

[HiddenJewel]

Wow, that was fast! More "confirmation" that what I know based on real-world experience to be impossible is actually true-- that kids everywhere are programming in, and knowledgeable about, Visual Basic. I guess that one can take the word of someone with a computer science and programming backround with a decade-plus of experience, or one can scoff. In the real world the OP's son is not wanting to program in VB; he just wants a Windows laptop so he can play games more easily. What experience in teaching beginning programming does your DS15 have, out of curiosity? I've actually been an instructor in the past.

 

Unless you know this boy you have no idea why he truly wants this new computer. And as an experienced programmer, I would think that you would be glad that young people are starting down that path. Life is about helping people, not showing yourself superior to them.

[elegantlion]

Wow, that was fast! More "confirmation" that what I know based on real-world experience to be impossible is actually true-- that kids everywhere are programming in, and knowledgeable about, Visual Basic. I guess that one can take the word of someone with a computer science and programming backround with a decade-plus of experience, or one can scoff. In the real world the OP's son is not wanting to program in VB; he just wants a Windows laptop so he can play games more easily. What experience in teaching beginning programming does your DS15 have, out of curiosity? I've actually been an instructor in the past.

 

You talked to the OP's son? :001_huh:

[Iucounu]

I posted that link. I admitted to not being well read. You should be quoting me. :tongue_smilie:

Fixed! :tongue_smilie: I posted extra info later to explain why there are so many languages listed-- it goes back to Microsoft's focus with the .NET platform and a bit of history (for instance, COBOL.NET came about because the #1 language for businesses everywhere was COBOL for decades). I had to run earlier or I would've posted at more length.

 

Even C#, which has good syntax if taking an object-oriented approach to teaching beginning programming, exists only because it was intended to be Microsoft's answer to Java; the syntax is quite Java-like (note that Microsoft came and implemented J# too, a Java clone, but it has always been quietly discouraged or emphasized as mostly a tool for porting over Java applications).

 

Visual Basic really is not the best choice because it has clunky syntax, and there are better choices, not because it can't be used to teach programming. When I hear about a kid learning VB as their first language, I suspect a family member (or much more rarely a stuck-in-the-mud public school teacher in a computer lab) who prefers VB because it was easy when they learned it back in the day, and they never used much else. And while Microsoft has tried to push .NET for education and scientific programming, they didn't make much headway there either. The .NET platform exists for purely business reasons, and people typically choose it because they're learning business programming.

 

Now in the OP's case, it's not true that VB, .NET or anything else where Windows would be helpful is needed for a course at the high school, or her son would have mentioned it and she would have too. He definitely didn't get the idea of VB from his friends, as quite close to 100% of kids independently learning programming these days are using other languages. He might have gotten the idea from a family member, but I think that would've been known to the OP too. The main option remaining is that the OP's kid wants his own machine, and he prefers Windows, probably because he can also use the laptop to game and he has gamer friends.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Iucounu

[Iucounu]

You talked to the OP's son? :001_huh:

No, I know that if his primary focus were really to learn programming, he wouldn't be insisting specifically on a Windows laptop. He probably wants a laptop like most kids do, probably does intend to program, and definitely wants to game.

[amy g.]

Has he woken up yet? Inquiring minds want to know!

[elegantlion]

No, I know that if his primary focus were really to learn programming, he wouldn't be insisting specifically on a Windows laptop. He probably wants a laptop like most kids do, probably does intend to program, and definitely wants to game.

 

You really can't make that assumption based upon the information the OP gave. Maybe they have a budget and PCs are cheaper, maybe he's being considerate and knows he has a better chance of getting it sooner.

 

Maybe this is his form of teenage rebellion, my parents are Macs, I will be a PC. :tongue_smilie:

[Iucounu]

You really can't make that assumption based upon the information the OP gave. Maybe they have a budget and PCs are cheaper, maybe he's being considerate and knows he has a better chance of getting it sooner.

I certainly can. He's using the fact that he "needs" a Windows PC specifically for programming to justify the extra purchase, so that his mom doesn't counter with a suggestion that he just use the Mac. It's a huge tipoff.

 

(Incidentally, one can even program in .NET on other platforms, and as I wrote earlier, one can run Windows on later Macs. But for the record, I agree that Macs tend to be overpriced; I'm typing this on a ThinkPad.)

[elegantlion]

I certainly can. He's using the fact that he "needs" a Windows PC specifically for programming to justify the extra purchase, so that his mom doesn't counter with a suggestion that he just use the Mac. It's a huge tipoff.

 

 

Okay then. :blink: Maybe the boy just wants his own computer so he doesn't have to share with the family.

[HiddenJewel]

There is something very real about the desire to have your own laptop especially if you are going to be doing programming or any other big project on an ongoing basis. I know my dh would not want the family using the computer he has his projects on.

[nono]

There is something very real about the desire to have your own laptop especially if you are going to be doing programming or any other big project on an ongoing basis. I know my dh would not want the family using the computer he has his projects on.

 

:iagree: I mentioned that on page 1, but from the opposite perspective (him taking out the main functioning computer for the rest of the family!)

[Iucounu]

That's all reasonable. The main things I keyed in on were the OP's kid saying that needed a PC to support his beginning interest in programming (wrong) and her wanting to know whether she'd be able to support that on the Mac, since she really wanted to spend the money on something else. I certainly think it's nice to have laptops all around, but on the other hand, it's good for the OP to be well-informed when she makes her life decisions. :patriot:

[HiddenJewel]

That's all reasonable. The main things I keyed in on were the OP's kid saying that needed a PC to support his beginning interest in programming (wrong) and her wanting to know whether she'd be able to support that on the Mac, since she really wanted to spend the money on something else. I certainly think it's nice to have laptops all around, but on the other hand, it's good for the OP to be well-informed when she makes her life decisions. :patriot:

 

In your mind his motives are super clear. But you do not have all the facts to work with at this point so it is still just your opinion. You might be right on but at this point your opinion cannot be presented as fact.