S/O: Teacher and Santa

[Ester Maria]

I didn't get the impression that you do. But I do get that impression from some, here and elsewhere.

Are you alluding to me? :D

[kathymuggle]

I voted issue an apology and other. I don't think an apology is enough, as it shows a serious lack of judgment in my opinion. Probation might be extreme and being made an example of is entirely inappropriate but a simple apology is a little lame.

Edited December 4, 2011 by kathymuggle

[SKL]

Are you alluding to me? :D

 

I'm not keeping track of who. Doesn't seem to be a healthy pursuit. If you've noticed others doing it, you probably aren't one of them. (In my unscientific opinion.)

[kiana]

I left a thank-you note from Santa last year, because the kids had worked really hard to make him some cookies. The kids' eyes got so big, LOL.

 

Santa left us notes every year. For some reason I didn't make the connection that they were in my father's handwriting and on his paper until far later :P

[Fleur de Lis]

I'm just wondering why parents get upset at someone telling the truth to their children? It's not a situation where the teacher believes something different than the parents and should just respect that...no adult person actually believes in Santa.

 

Are children really more innocent for believing in Santa than say a child who has never heard of Santa, or are they just more deceived? Maybe kids who are taught that Santa is real do lose some innocence upon learning the truth, but is it because they now know there is no Santa, or because they now know that the adults they trust the most have been purposefully misleading them and think it is an okay practice?

[Ester Maria]

Are children really more innocent for believing in Santa than say a child who has never heard of Santa, or are they just more deceived? Maybe kids who are taught that Santa is real do lose some innocence upon learning the truth, but is it because they now know there is no Santa, or because they now know that the adults they trust the most have been purposefully misleading them and think it is an okay practice?

I think they are upset more because now they will appear fraudolent in their children's eyes than because of any inherent "innocence" associated with Santa.

[annandatje]

I'm just wondering why parents get upset at someone telling the truth to their children? It's not a situation where the teacher believes something different than the parents and should just respect that...no adult person actually believes in Santa.

 

Are children really more innocent for believing in Santa than say a child who has never heard of Santa, or are they just more deceived? Maybe kids who are taught that Santa is real do lose some innocence upon learning the truth, but is it because they now know there is no Santa, or because they now know that the adults they trust the most have been purposefully misleading them and think it is an okay practice?

 

In my opinion, it is entirely possible to have a warm contented optimistic charming childhood with or without a Santa, Tooth Fairy, or Easter Bunny belief. Losing or not holding magical beliefs as child does not equate with loss of innocence, cynicism or corruption.

[Fleur de Lis]

I think they are upset more because now they will appear fraudolent in their children's eyes than because of any inherent "innocence" associated with Santa.

 

:iagree: and to me it seems as though the parents dig this hole for themselves :leaving:

 

I expect my children to be honest with me and don't really see how the Santa myth is a good model of proper behavior.

 

A grandmother of a kindergartener added, "I think this is awful. If it happened to my granddaughter, I'd tell her [that] her teacher made a mistake, and there is a Santa."

 

Isn't this just a culturally accepted lie? Doesn't this type of behavior handicap a child's ability to trust other things this grandmother might tell them? Obviously the child will eventually find out.

again...:leaving:

Edited December 4, 2011 by Fleur de Lis

[Jean in Newcastle]

I thought the same thing. What would people say if she stood at the front of the class and told the kids there was no such thing as god and that their parents had been lying to them all along?

 

Actually I've told my kids all along that that is exactly what many people will tell them. I tell them some of the reasons that people believe that and why I do not believe that. My kids have always been free to believe as they wish on this matter. I suppose in one sense my kids are free to believe as they wish on Santa too. If they wanted to disagree with me and insist that he exists then go ahead.

[SKL]

I'm just wondering why parents get upset at someone telling the truth to their children? It's not a situation where the teacher believes something different than the parents and should just respect that...no adult person actually believes in Santa.

 

Are children really more innocent for believing in Santa than say a child who has never heard of Santa, or are they just more deceived? Maybe kids who are taught that Santa is real do lose some innocence upon learning the truth, but is it because they now know there is no Santa, or because they now know that the adults they trust the most have been purposefully misleading them and think it is an okay practice?

 

The bolded part is an adult-oriented way of putting it. Kids don't think the way adults do. My 4yo says she wants to go to college to learn to be a princess, and the fact that I just say "oh, OK" instead of "that is impossible" does not make me a liar. Most kids love to live in fantasyland and love it even more if their parents encourage it while they are little. Eventually each parent decides when and how to back off of the fairy tales, including Santa.

 

That's why it's important to leave it to the parents to wake their kids up from the Santa dream, assuming they don't figure it out for themselves at a young age. The parents can explain it in a way that does not damage the child's optomism nor his esteem for his parents. Obviously no parent is going to let his child go out into the adult world still believing in Santa. So it's not like we need outsiders to step in and make sure of this.

 

Here's a different example for you. My kids say and believe that they do not have a father. The reality is that their birth fathers had nothing to do with them from birth (I adopted them as infants) and I am not married. When I believe the time is right, I will tell that there needed to be a man involved or they would not have been born.

 

Now if my kid tells her teacher "I don't have a father, my mom says so," is it OK for the teacher to say "your mother is wrong"? Or "well you know, parents can be wrong sometimes"? No, because she has no business undermining my daughter's esteem for me. Save that for the college professors to do - after they are old enough to think these things through.

[kathymuggle]

I'm just wondering why parents get upset at someone telling the truth to their children? It's not a situation where the teacher believes something different than the parents and should just respect that...no adult person actually believes in Santa.

 

Are children really more innocent for believing in Santa than say a child who has never heard of Santa, or are they just more deceived? Maybe kids who are taught that Santa is real do lose some innocence upon learning the truth, but is it because they now know there is no Santa, or because they now know that the adults they trust the most have been purposefully misleading them and think it is an okay practice?

 

I can tell by the tone of your post that you do not think much of parents telling their kids there is a Santa. Fine - that is your judgment - don't tell your kids there is a Santa (shrug).

 

How I discuss Santa with my kids is my decision, though, not yours - and not a teachers.

Edited December 5, 2011 by kathymuggle

[Daisy]

I cannot believe anyone thinks this teacher should be disciplined. Give me a break.

 

Absolutely nothing should happen to that teacher and I don't think she should have to apologize for teaching the facts.

 

The parents could have easily told their children that not all adults believe in Santa. Haven't these kids watched Miracle on 34th Street or The Polar Express?

[Carpe]

My 4yo says she wants to go to college to learn to be a princess, [ . . . ] I just say "oh, OK" instead of "that is impossible"

 

But it is totally possible, just ask Kate Middleton. Well actually it appears she went to university to be a Duchess, but that's pretty close.

[Catwoman]

Call me crazy, but I'm sensing some hostility toward Santa in this thread, and I feel it is my civic duty to remind everyone that he sees you when you're sleeping; he knows when you're awake; he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake.

 

Let's try to stay off the Naughty List, people! ;)

[Laurie4b]

I put other: Apology to parents and written or oral warning in her personnel file about interfering with areas that are within a parents' domain.

[Daisy]

I think she needs some sensitivity training.

 

I worked in an assisted living facility years ago. That included several hours of training on topics related to being respectful of religion and cultural. I learned a lot of things I didn't know about and could imagine hurting someone's feelings because of that.

 

If she doesn't know any better (hard to believe) then the sensitivity training would help her. If she is just a spiteful jerk who believes in shoving her own agenda down people's throats then that's a problem too.

 

Teacher's get to have their own opinions and beliefs, but they don't get to teach them to 2nd graders.

 

I find this so ironic. What if she was teaching some other myth as fact in her classroom? Most parents would be in an uproar at the thought.

[Catwoman]

Maybe Santa doesn't bring them anything good. :D

 

AHA! The truth is out! :D

[southernm]

I find this so ironic. What if she was teaching some other myth as fact in her classroom? Most parents would be in an uproar at the thought.

 

How is this ironic? The point is she should not be teaching about any myths that aren't included in the approved curriculum. Without question she overstepped her bounds as a teacher.

[JustGin]

OK, this was EXACTLY my thought. The discipline needs to be somewhere between what would most likely be a lame and insincere apology and dismissal but I don't know what.

 

The fact is, it was not her right to destroy the kids' belief in Santa, no more than it would be her right to destroy kids' belief in God if she were an atheist. It's ridiculous to say she would have to lie. Many people have already pointed out what she could have said instead. Instead, she was just mean. She just sounds mean...and self-important. I don't know. I don't think someone with so little common sense and self-control ought to be working with 2nd graders, personally. The whole things makes me cranky and I would be livid. Kids have the rest of their lives to be cynical and I prefer to let some magic stay in their lives as long as possible. Frankly, it's my choice, not some holier than thou 2nd grade teacher who puts her own opinions before the feelings of her pupils or their families.

 

:iagree: Well said. I would be livid. I wouldn't "gun" for her job, but I would expect an apology at the least. How very sad that she felt her "truth" trumped respect and tenderness toward the children's beliefs and imaginations. :(

[Jean in Newcastle]

Call me crazy, but I'm sensing some hostility toward Santa in this thread, and I feel it is my civic duty to remind everyone that he sees you when you're sleeping; he knows when you're awake; he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake.

 

Let's try to stay off the Naughty List, people! ;)

 

Ds14 says "Santa is Big Brother."

[Julie in CA]

I can't believe the 4 people that voted she should lose her job!

 

Seriously! :001_huh: Over outing Santa! :glare:

It's not about "outing Santa". It's about forgetting who you work for.

When you do things to seriously displease your boss, you might get fired. Best to think before you speak.

Though I know others may dispute, I firmly believe we need to figure out a way for teachers to be accountable to those whom they are serving. They may have been hired by a bureaucracy, but in essence, they are paid for by taxpayers and should be more accountable to please those who are providing their paychecks.

Yeah, I know...I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and that's ok. :001_smile:

Edited December 5, 2011 by Julie in CA

[Ester Maria]

Teacher's get to have their own opinions and beliefs, but they don't get to teach them to 2nd graders.

But, Wendy, this is NOT the question of subjective opinions and beliefs. It is an *objective fact* that the gifts are bought by parents. The teacher was not favoring one subjective view over another subjective view, but a FACT over an ILLUSION. Now, we may romanticize that illusion all we want, but she did not share her view over another legitimate view on an issue that cannot be definitely proven.

 

I am not even sure this is a sensitivity thing. Developmentally, most children that age ARE capable of distinguishing reality from imagination on this level. She has not pushed them into a developmentally inappropriate direction. And who says parents should have the monopoly on when their children forgo some illusions (definite, provable illusions like Santa)? The point of schooling is the demystification of the world! So, okay, the timing here did not match the parental wishes, but it was probably a spontaneous thing anyway... I really do not get why would people have such a hard time letting it go. This is not a *value* issue, not a subjective reality issue... just a simple fact, with which she probably spontaneously corrected some kid's wrong information, like teachers do all the time.

[Ester Maria]

But you are acting like it's surprising that anyone would find this upsetting. Really? Some people believe in sacred undergarments (a relatively little known fact). I don't think this is a relatively little known thing.

 

There are tons of simple facts that we don't share with 2nd graders.

I actually am surprised that people find this upsetting. Seriously. I am not being snarky. I am :confused::confused::confused: reading these responses. I even wondered whether people were serious or sarcastic when voting for the teacher facing some consequences or writing that.

 

Sacred undergarments are not on the repertory of an average child, but Santa is an over-present pop culture icon. It makes sense to me to discuss it with children, simply because it is on their radar and interest, or even spontaneously correct an illusion. Remember, the teacher was prompted to say so, it is not like she came out of her own free will and started a "There is no Santa" lecture. Just a (probably) spontaneous correction - and people are so infuriated.

[catz]

IMO, all she had to do, if the kids said something about Santa living at the North Pole, was laugh and say something like, "OK gang, this is a Geography lesson, not a Christmas lesson" and let it go at that. We learned about the North Pole when we were in elementary school, and Santa was never mentioned. We learned about the climate and the wildlife, but the Christmas aspect was never brought up at all.

 

:iagree: It would have been easy enough to change the subject IMHO. I said apology was enough though.

[catz]

I mean talk about lies, I learned in school at that age that Christopher Columbus was totally awesome. THAT is a lie.

 

:iagree: ROFL. Good point.

[Word Nerd]

I can't believe the 4 people that voted she should lose her job!

 

Seriously! :001_huh: Over outing Santa! :glare: Okay, so she should foreclose on her home, possibly displacing herself and her OWN children because she exposed the myth of Santa. C'mon now.

 

:iagree: And now the number is higher. I think that's more disturbing than the teacher's poor judgment. :001_huh:

Edited December 5, 2011 by WordGirl

[GingerPoppy]

Call me crazy, but I'm sensing some hostility toward Santa in this thread, and I feel it is my civic duty to remind everyone that he sees you when you're sleeping; he knows when you're awake; he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake.

 

Let's try to stay off the Naughty List, people! ;)

:lol: Agreed!

[southernm]

Well huh. I stand corrected. I googled for more info on the story and it turns out the teacher is 58! I was picturing some immature just out of college type. I know school politics and I wouldn't put it pass the board to transfer her to a very undesirable position or force her to retire.

[Catwoman]

Ds14 says "Santa is Big Brother."

 

But he means it in a good way, right? :tongue_smilie:

 

(Reminder: Two Words: Naughty List. ;))

Edited December 5, 2011 by Catwoman

[mommaduck]

She did not have to lie. She could have easily said, "Yes, some people believe Santa lives there." That is not a lie, nor does it confirm that Santa lives there. It is simply restating some people's beliefs. Some people believe the literal version of the creation story in Genesis. If a teacher doesn't believe the same way, is it his/her prerogative to disabuse a student of that notion?

:iagree:

[silliness7]

I don't get the big deal. If my kids believed in Santa and someone told them there was no Santa I'd tell my kids that some people don't believe. They've watched Miracle on 34th Street. If parents want to do the Santa thing then they should get creative with how to deal with the un-believers. I don't think it's a public school teacher's job to perpetuate the myth.

 

We don't do Santa, btw, so that's my bias. We do believe in God and I have no expectations whatsoever of a public school teacher confirming that belief for my children. It's why we homeschool.

[QuirkyKapers]

It wouldn't have affected our family because we have always just gone with St. Nicholas was real and read them that story. Once we were in church and someone shared that when they discovered Santa wasn't real, they were mad at their parents for lying to them. This lady in front of me started breathing heavier and heavier. I thought she was going to jump out of the pew and beat the person. So, it does good to keep in mind that this issue is a senstive issue and each family handles it differently. I have told my kids under no circumstances are they to share Santa isn't real. Of course they tell me, well, St. Nicholas was real:D

[Ester Maria]

I cannot fathom a reason why it is necessary she even bring it up.

But it was probably a knee jerk reaction, you know? I imagine it as a totally spontaneous thing in a moment of mental distraction when she could not think of a different approach (ideally, she would have laughed it off like somebody suggested, saying this is a geography, not a Christmas lesson) - should she really be considered *malicious* or punished for that? Probably just a spontaneous correction, like teachers do all the time. Poor judgment, probably, but nothing of HUGE proportions in my view, huge enough to warrant any action. What would happen to ALL of us if we were to lose jobs over something minor as that? Poor judgments in a millisecond happen, but this is really a minor thing - kids will survive, parents will survive, it is not like her poor judgment cost somebody's life or body part, just a bit of an emotional distress, on a topic where the parents "prepared the ground" for potential future distress anyway.

I mean talk about lies, I learned in school at that age that Christopher Columbus was totally awesome. THAT is a lie.

All elementary school (and not only) content are simplifications - scientifically, sociologically, historically, etc., because you simply do not get into some detail, nuances, issues of perspective or general subtleties with small children. So I get why the "history" you were taught was essentially national mythology, as I was taught my own national mythology. And all elementary "science" we were taught was watered down to the point of being nearly factually incorrect. :lol: But you have to crawl before you walk and run, right? They have to start somewhere, on a level kids can understand, and then get into more complex things later on.

 

Santa is actually handy to teach some basic physics. :tongue_smilie: I actually worked through this article with my kids. :lol:

[Lovin Learnin]

Malicious or not it was not her place to tell so she should have found a way around it. If she is a seasoned teacher I'm sure that would not have been hard to do.

 

That said, I think an apology to the parents is sufficient.

[myfunnybunch]

But it was probably a knee jerk reaction, you know? I imagine it as a totally spontaneous thing in a moment of mental distraction when she could not think of a different approach (ideally, she would have laughed it off like somebody suggested, saying this is a geography, not a Christmas lesson) - should she really be considered *malicious* or punished for that? Probably just a spontaneous correction, like teachers do all the time. Poor judgment, probably, but nothing of HUGE proportions in my view, huge enough to warrant any action. What would happen to ALL of us if we were to lose jobs over something minor as that?

 

I agree, and I am on the opposite side of the Santa fence.

 

I picture this teacher going into the teacher's lounge and saying, "Well, crumb. I just told my entire class Santa isn't real. I'll bet I'm going to hear about this one." What she probably didn't bet on was this turning into national news. Poor woman, I'll bet she's getting a big ol' truckoad of coal this year. ;)

 

Cat

[SKL]

But, Wendy, this is NOT the question of subjective opinions and beliefs. It is an *objective fact* that the gifts are bought by parents. The teacher was not favoring one subjective view over another subjective view, but a FACT over an ILLUSION. Now, we may romanticize that illusion all we want, but she did not share her view over another legitimate view on an issue that cannot be definitely proven.

 

I am not even sure this is a sensitivity thing. Developmentally, most children that age ARE capable of distinguishing reality from imagination on this level. She has not pushed them into a developmentally inappropriate direction. And who says parents should have the monopoly on when their children forgo some illusions (definite, provable illusions like Santa)? The point of schooling is the demystification of the world! So, okay, the timing here did not match the parental wishes, but it was probably a spontaneous thing anyway... I really do not get why would people have such a hard time letting it go. This is not a *value* issue, not a subjective reality issue... just a simple fact, with which she probably spontaneously corrected some kid's wrong information, like teachers do all the time.

 

OK, so I think they should teach that Barack Obama was conceived out of wedlock (and not by the Holy Spirit). To second-graders. I mean, we're all about teaching simple facts, none of which should offend anyone regardless of family sensitivities.

[Fleur de Lis]

How I discuss Santa with my kids is my decision, though, not yours - and not a teachers.

 

All I'm saying is that it is not true and I don't think it is a teacher's responsibility to figure out a million creative ways of tiptoeing around all of the myths that parents have told their children. Am I saying that she should've told them all that Santa isn't real? No. It was probably imprudent and probably did result in some hurt for the poor kids. However, I don't think the parents should be upset about it as they laid the groundwork.

 

There are lots of "truths" that could be told. It's true that people have ... with horses and dogs. Should we tell our children...because it's true? most people are aware of the whole Santa thing and telling the truth about it is just spiteful and not about honesty.

 

I am not saying that she should have told the children. Perhaps she could have found some way of tiptoeing around it all and spared some upset children. I'm just saying that the distress the children have experienced cannot be blamed completely on her. I don't think that it is fair to characterize her as being spiteful. As someone mentioned before, the topic came up during a geography lesson, it was an organic development of the conversation, perhaps she didn't at the moment have any good ideas of how to tiptoe around the children's assertions about Santa without feeling like she was being dishonest. There are definitely ways it could have been mentioned that would not really be spiteful and I just don't think parents should be upset about it.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Fleur de Lis

[BigMamaBird]

I spilled the beans to my 6 year old today. She asked me straight out who put the gifts under the tree, so I told her the truth. She wasn't happy, but I told her it's still fun to pretend. We're still planning on visiting Santa at the mall too. But I guess the difference is, I'm her Mom and the teacher isn't. She should apologize to any parent who was upset, but that's about it.

[SKL]

But it was probably a knee jerk reaction, you know? I imagine it as a totally spontaneous thing in a moment of mental distraction when she could not think of a different approach (ideally, she would have laughed it off like somebody suggested, saying this is a geography, not a Christmas lesson) - should she really be considered *malicious* or punished for that? Probably just a spontaneous correction, like teachers do all the time. Poor judgment, probably, but nothing of HUGE proportions in my view, huge enough to warrant any action. What would happen to ALL of us if we were to lose jobs over something minor as that? Poor judgments in a millisecond happen, but this is really a minor thing - kids will survive, parents will survive, it is not like her poor judgment cost somebody's life or body part, just a bit of an emotional distress, on a topic where the parents "prepared the ground" for potential future distress anyway.

 

Understanding how children think is an absolute job requirement for teaching second grade. She would have to be an idiot to not know some kids in her class were believers. If she is an idiot, she should step aside and let someone smarter have her job. I'm sure there are plenty of bright candidates out there.

[SKL]

However, I don't think the parents should be upset about it as they laid the groundwork.

 

 

OK, so nobody had better tell their kids they are smart, handsome, pretty, strong, etc., because when their teachers tell them otherwise, it will be our fault that we set them up for disappointment.

[Fleur de Lis]

...they now know that the adults they trust the most have been purposefully misleading them and think it is an okay practice?

The bolded part is an adult-oriented way of putting it. Kids don't think the way adults do.

 

Maybe most kids don't, but some do.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Fleur de Lis

[Fleur de Lis]

OK, so nobody had better tell their kids they are smart, handsome, pretty, strong, etc., because when their teachers tell them otherwise, it will be our fault that we set them up for disappointment.

If you actually think there is an ounce of truth to what you are telling your child, then we are comparing apples to oranges.

[SKL]

If you actually think there is an ounce of truth to what you are telling your child, then we are comparing apples to oranges.

 

Not really. When a wimpy little kid shows me his "muscles" and says, "see how strong I am?" I'm gonna say, "wow, so strong!" When my kid puts on her princess dress and tiara and comes to show me, my comment is going to be anything but objective / factual. That's not the point. Santa Claus and pretty princesses and strong biceps are not the realm of the second-grade teacher. Also in this category is how smart and wonderful a child's parents are. A qualified teacher knows this.

[SKL]

Maybe most kids don't, but some do. My husband remembers being really upset with his dad the day he found out because his dad had knowingly made him to believe something that he knew wasn't true.

 

All the more reason why nobody but the parents should transmit the "Santa isn't real" message.

 

I believe most kids would not get upset if they found out the normal way (at least that's true for most people I know), but for those who would, at least the parents can help the child to understand why they played Santa and how the child can think positively about it despite the fact that it's a fantasy.

[Fleur de Lis]

.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Fleur de Lis